Would implementing Spears on land really be such an issue?

The tl;dr verison: Spears (and other new weapons) could be implemented into the game with a bit of creativity in such a way that wouldn't be resource heavy for the developers and could turn a profit in the long-run.

Many call for "land spears" or even just additional weapons to become a reality, and many more yet vehemently oppose it on the basis of the following arguments:

1. Who would get the weapons? (a fairness issue)
2. It might confuse new players who will experience underwater (UW) weapons first and wonder how to get them on land.
3. It could create balance issues since new skills would have to be created (addressed later on)
4. It would take a lot of developer resources and time to develop both new skins and new animations (would cost them more money than it would make them)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the meat of the argument against spears is argument #4. Nobody cares for the first three arguments in light of having interesting or cool new content overall and there aren't really any good arguments beyond the fourth one I listed.

If the interest was high enough, I think spears (and other weapons) actually could be introduced in a very economic and eventually lucrative way. Just think about it: currently underwater skins/animations/weapon skills are wasted assets. Nobody plays or enjoys UW content and Anet/the community knows very well that an UW-focused expansion (which is the only way that they could get us to play UW content) would NOT sell well.

Both of these problems could be fixed with a little bit of creativity: An expansion that focuses on the Deep Sea Dragon (aka. Steve). Just to be clear, it would NOT be an UW expansion. It wouldn't be marketed as an UW expansion and it wouldn't play like one either for the most part. The expansion might of course start in water or have some UW content and areas but could use a narrative or plot that focuses more on land.

Here are two examples of what I mean:

• With the power of another other dead Elder Dragon slain (maybe unintentionally in the next expac or Living World episode), Steve has become enormously powerful. His power allows him to dry up/absorb most if not all of the bodies of water in the game. We then play the majority of the expac on land (in previously oceanic areas) with elite specializations focused on using UW weapons as land weapons.

• Using his own power, or perhaps utilizing ley energy, Steve creates some anomalous terrain and maps involving strange water physics - think floating bodies of water, and water generally not obeying the laws of physics. This would involve a lot of land-based gameplay and perhaps some transitioning into/out of water. In this case, having elite specializations focused on using UW weapons on land would actually make sense from both a gameplay and narrative perspective.

Some creativity would have to be involved with the harpoon gun and the trident, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. For example, the harpoon gun could have some narrative that involves modifying the weapon to effectively turn it into a bowgun or repeater crossbow, and elite specializations that receive trident skills could focus on throwing the trident (lots of ground-targeted skills) as well as using the 3+ prongs of trident as ways of catching/parrying attacks to heavily differentiate it from both spear and staff.

If you think about it, it's viable as far as argument #4 goes.

• Recycling UW weapon skins for the land versions shouldn't be too difficult.
• Animations could also be recycled from UW skills and even borrowing many animations for land versions (just like how revenant staff used many hammer animations).
• This opens the door to new gem store weapon skins = profit

Would balancing the new weapon skills be an issue? Not if they're attached to an elite spec. New skills must be created for elite specs with each expansion anyway, so having them attached to "new land weapons" in this manner wouldn't be an issue in this case.

I think if player interest was high enough, it's something that could be implemented to the benefit of both Anet and the player base.

New animations as you can’t really use the underwater ones. Effects, too.

New skills for the same reason as above which means tons of balancing.

All in all it would be more work than you think.

I had recently thought making ALL weapons usable underwater (with some skill variants--especially for ground targeted skills--to adapt to the 3D environment), paired with new land-based skills for all UW weapons. This seems to be in the same vein as what you are requesting.

@"Oglaf.1074" said:New animations as you can’t really use the underwater ones. Effects, too.

New skills for the same reason as above which means tons of balancing.

All in all it would be more work than you think.

New elite specialization skills use new animations anyways. If we're talking specifically the character movement/weapon swings, this is what would be borrowed heavily from UW animations (if possible) and from current land weapons.

Again, every new batch of elite specializations means new skills for every class. This would be no different, the skills would just be attached to new weapon-types.

Yes it would be more work than probably any of us thinks, just as new elite specs themselves are a ton of work, but it's an idea worth considering rather than the path we're currently on which will result in scraping the bottom of the barrel and giving classes "whatever is left" as far as elite spec weapons goes (scepter warrior, pistol guardian, hammer necro).

Spears = Staves with other skins

Are you trying to bring back the Paragon? =)

The OP is attempting to justify a big change to the game by claiming, "it's not as much work as it sounds." That's not a compelling business argument. What would a new terrestrial weapon add to the game, to combat? Of all the weapon/weapon types not used on land, what makes spears the best choice? What sort of resources, broadly speaking, would it take to set this up? How are those resources already tasked? How much would this impact ongoing costs, especially how frequently we see balance patches?

I'm not against adding spears to land combat (or fists or crossbows or whatever). I just don't see that it would be so much more fun it would be worth the added complication to balancing combat skills/traits, let alone what it would take to implement in the first place.

I'm with the op here. I don't think it is a "big change". Sure it'll require work and time and other resources, but everything including new elites requires work and investment and that shouldn't really stomp on what is otherwise a decent enough idea to add to a spec. We know in theory it is doable since we have seen mesmers use greatswords uniquely, daredevils use staves uniquely and so forth. Anet are talented enough and cleverer enough to make it work - that isn't the issue at all I am sure. It is finding an elite that could utilise it effectively.

I do think tridents doubling up on land has potential though. Possibly as an ele or mesmer spec, with it transitioning from sea-land seamlessly when the elite is equipped

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:Of all the weapon/weapon types not used on land, what makes spears the best choice?

Popular demand. While this is never the sole reason things should be implemented, this game is made for the players so meeting reasonable popular demands is almost always a good move.

What sort of resources, broadly speaking, would it take to set this up? How are those resources already tasked? How much would this impact ongoing costs, especially how frequently we see balance patches?

Obviously, I don't have a great idea. I don't think anyone outside of Anet really does. However, anyone who opposes new content in this form based on the argument that it would be too resource heavy on Anet also has just as little of an idea as me as to just how resource heavy implementing these things would be. I'm at least taking what angle I can and making arguments based on currently present evidence that a new weapon type could be economically implemented into the game.

I just don't see that it would be so much more fun it would be worth the added complication to balancing combat skills/traits, let alone what it would take to implement in the first place.

Maybe I'll edit my original post but I thought I made it very clear that balance would not be any more of an issue than it would for any other expac:

Every new batch of elite specs means new weapon skills. --> Does it matter if these new skills are attached to new weapons or not? --> As far as balance goes, absolutely not. The reason the new skills get attached to current weapons (or rather, the current weapon is chosen and new skills are created) is that recycling currently existing animations/skins is more economical than creating an entirely new weapon from scratch.

My post is made to address exactly this last point here: it could be economically viable (or at least comparable) to have the new skills attached to new weapons since already existing assets can be recycled.

It doesn't really matter. They need to do it. Spears are too iconic a fantasy weapon to not have them available on land, and the skins already exist for God's sake. We need new weapons at this point anyway.

New animations are a non-issue since those have to be created anyway for new skills gained by new elite specs.

I actually think Harpoon guns should be converted to Crossbows for land use and Tridents could just be an alternate staff type for casters.

To be honest, it kind of blows my mind that this hasn't already been done given how limited UW content in the game is.

Spears and tridents becoming terrestrial makes more sense than any other brand new weapons being added. There would already have a decent selection of ready-made skins and models made for one thing. They'd just have to make sure that their introduction was sufficiently interesting. Something like 4 classes getting them as new weapons, Gen 2 legendaries being added, and a few flashy new skins for each. A couple of "regional" skins for the new expansion, fill in a few gaps in existing sets (Dwarven spear?), a few GW1 skins for nostalgia's sake and make sure they're in the new black lion weapon set. They don't need to go back and fill in all the gaps in existing weapon sets. The roller beetle has set that precedent.

I think spears on land is out of the question.Just consider for a moment the things they have dismissed in the past cuz its "too much work".

Consider how many of those "too much work" things have actually made it into the game. It's certainly less work than mounts.

I'm not saying we absolutely mush have polearms, but it's likely lower hanging fruit than other new features they could implement. Maybe they'll save spears for Cantha so we can go full dynasty warriors.

OP your post is good except for this part "Nobody plays or enjoys UW content and Anet/the community knows very well that an UW-focused expansion (which is the only way that they could get us to play UW content) would NOT sell well." that is a broad false statement as for one I play and enjoy UW content and combat. Sure the combat needs improved for sure. I would love to see the skins/weapons for tridents and spears be used on a land based weapon (Land Spear/Pole arm).

@"Amaranthe.3578" said:I think spears on land is out of the question.Just consider for a moment the things they have dismissed in the past cuz its "too much work".

This suggestion isn't just something they would whimsically introduce though. This is a suggestion for how they could introduce spears, or other new weapons in regards to an expansion/elite specialization weapons. A lot of work goes into this process and taking already existing weapon models, and reusing certain animations while creating unique others + effects isn't beyond the scope of what they did for HoT and PoF. I think it's more of a matter of whether or not the narrative they build goes in the direction of the Deep Sea Dragon or underwater/aquatic territories. If it does, I don't at all think that underwater weapons on land is unreasonable.

Other than all the work that is required, I don't think it would be. But let's be clear ... being alot of work is a reason not to do it. I see almost no return on the investment to create spears as land weapons other than the proven route of elite spec weapons released with expansions.

As a Dev, I would still FORCE a player to have a separate 'land' and 'water' spear equipped though.

@"starhunter.6015" said:OP your post is good except for this part "Nobody plays or enjoys UW content and Anet/the community knows very well that an UW-focused expansion (which is the only way that they could get us to play UW content) would NOT sell well." that is a broad false statement as for one I play and enjoy UW content and combat. Sure the combat needs improved for sure. I would love to see the skins/weapons for tridents and spears be used on a land based weapon (Land Spear/Pole arm).

If you take his "nobody" literally then yes, he is incorrect. But from experience, I can tell you that when people say "nobody" they mean "not many people". It's very annoying but there it is.

The point that you enjoy UW content does disprove him in the literal sense, but I do not think you represent a large group of players just dying to go under water. So from the general point that it's not going to sell well, hey may very well be right.

I can see a LS chapter that goes to some under water city working out, but not an entire expansion. Maybe, just maybe, if an under water LS is done so well it gets people excited about UW content, then that might be considered, but I'm not holding my breath.

@Obtena.7952 said:Other than all the work that is required, I don't think it would be. But let's be clear ... being alot of work is a reason not to do it. I see almost no return on the investment to create spears as land weapons other than the proven route of elite spec weapons released with expansions.

As a Dev, I would still FORCE a player to have a separate 'land' and 'water' spear equipped though.

It is certainly a lot of work, but keep in mind that designing new elite specs and new weapons for them is a lot of work. Relative to the status quo, would a suggestion like mine be THAT much more work? I seem to not think so which is why the idea is worth putting out there. Perhaps it will pique the interest of a dev, and they can internally evaluate this possibility or something similar!

The easier something sounds to someone that knows little about software development, the harder it is to do.

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Other than all the work that is required, I don't think it would be. But let's be clear ... being alot of work is a reason not to do it. I see almost no return on the investment to create spears as land weapons other than the proven route of elite spec weapons released with expansions.

As a Dev, I would still FORCE a player to have a separate 'land' and 'water' spear equipped though.

Let me rephrase:

It's not alot of work in the context of the possibility of putting a land spear as a weapon in the next expansion. It is alot of work just to slide it in as a patch or LS.

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@"Amaranthe.3578" said:I think spears on land is out of the question.Just consider for a moment the things they have dismissed in the past cuz its "too much work".

We will not get any new weapon and there is no real need for them.First of all mechanically you can take any weapon and do with it what you will regardless of theme of the weapon, e.g :revs hammer is a long ranger weapon that feels like a staff.If in some distant a future we will have loads of e-specs and we wont have enough weapons they will just start to double up on existing the weapons(for example a spellbreakers dagger is different than a bandits dagger or whatevr).Since adding a new weapon is a lot of work and serves no real mechanical purpose it will not happen.

Adding spears has almost no return on investment opportunities. In fact it would cost anet alot more, not just the initial cost, but the ongoing support for spears in each new weapon skin set that is released.

The only reason they would add spears, when they wont make anet money is if they are really stuck for a new key selling point for an expansion. Considering there are way more desired features that could act as a key selling point (underwater maps, tengu race ect) its unlikely spears will come for many years yet, if ever.

We already have land spear. Its name is "Staff"

Dont care about spears so much, but i would love to see tridents as terrestrial weapons for mesmers with some kind of illusionary water-magic.

Well. with the recent update to UW combat I think you can expect the expansion that brings the DSD into play will contain a fair, no, make that quite a bit of UW content, I would say it would lean heavily on UW and above water content for that matter...maybe with a smattering of Southsun Cove like settings for the land portion. Or, they could just never do anything related to the DSD and not have make all that UW content...which is not as bad as most people make it out to be, if people would bother to use spatial awareness, the same method you use to orient yourself in unfamiliar territory in the real world.