Minion Discussion. How can we improve minions?

This is going to be an Open discussion about how to improve minions. I'll present some changes I'd like to see to the minions and then I'll open the floor to others who might have their own ideas about how they could be improved. I'll list a few ideas I've had and you jump in to add your 2 cents.

Some mechanical stuff

• Movement Speed: Minions should probably move a bit faster to reach their target without issue. These hulking creatures seem to be slow and struggle at times to catch their foes.
• Sticky attacks: What I mean by this is like how the Moa transformation works. The player's auto in moa is sticky and will launch them forward so they can land attacks. I feel Minions should also have this sticky attacks to improve their pursuit of players and moving NPCs.

Traits

Each of the traits should really be compressed into a single trait as a grandmaster trait. Having to dedicate so much to minions when the player is expected to run a weapon and attack that way isn't quite a great idea. Especially considering the functionality of minions is almost exclusively tied to death magic. (Baring Vampiric). Since minions are pretty close to self contained, their traits shouldn't spread across half of death magic.

• Flesh of the Master's Health increase and Necromantic Corruption's damage increase should be made baseline: This is something I've felt about the minions for a long while. The minions need a bit of a boost, while also the bonus toughness and condition transfer could be overwhelming in the future if the necromancer ever gets a proper minion master elite spec. Regardless of the design of that spec, these traits could push necromancer over the edge in terms of viability.
• Death Nova: Increase the damage output from deaths. Minion skills recharge 2 seconds for each death around them and 1 second for each minion death. Drop the Jagged horror spawning, I have an idea for that.
• Adapt Trait| Flesh of the Master: When summoning a creature or object grant 2 seconds of protection to up to 5 allies around that creature or object within 240 radius. 5 second internal cool down. This would work with minions granting protection but also with Sand Shades or even runes that spawn a rock dog, parrot or the sigil that spawns a fleshreaver. I feel this would be a fairly potent Trait to have allowing synergy with minions but also scourge and any future elite spec that summons something. Death really feels like it should be a summoner's trait line.
• Master Trait| Jagged Bones: Whenever you summon a creature, object or enter shroud summon a Jagged horror. 5 second internal cool down.

Minions and Minion Skills

I only have two minions skills I feel should be changed and the rest I feel could safely stay the same without issue. I'm also going to talk about Jagged horrors.

• Summon Bone Minions: Bone minions now spawn 3 minions and now use the ammo system. Whenever a minion dies, a charge is spent automatically to spawn a new bone minion. Gain another charge after 5 seconds. You can have up to 2 charges.
• Putrid Explosion: Putrid explosion now causes the minions to leap to the target location and explode on impact. The skill now has a 1/4 second cast time. 1 second cool down.
• Summon Bone Fiend: Summon Bone Fiend now spawns 2 bone fiends and uses the ammo system. After 10 seconds of one of the bone fiend's death, spawn a new one.
• Rigor Mortis: Reduce cool down from 50 seconds to 30 seconds and pulls foes. Only one Bone fiend can use this skill at a time.
• Jagged Horror: No longer has a 30 second life span, loses health each second instead. You may only control up to 6-8 Jagged horrors at a time. _I'll admit the 30 jagged horrors was pretty insane back in the day. But 6-8 should be much easier to manage in the balance. And having them degenerate health faster and faster much like minions did in GW1 would be a nice change of pace.

These are my ideas I've got. Feel free to add your two cents or disagree or propose your own ideas. I look forward to the discussion.

If these skills have charges, when will the flip skill kick into effect? Will we be able to use the summon skill if a charge comes up while the skill is flipped, if so how?

@Sephylon.4938 said:If these skills have charges, when will the flip skill kick into effect? Will we be able to use the summon skill if a charge comes up while the skill is flipped, if so how?

The charges will be active as soon as the summon skill is active. The Activation sill will have no impact on the charges. The charges will spawn a minion at intervals based on time if you do not have the max number of minions. It'll read that lets say you are using bone minions. You have 2 out and 2 available charges. A charge will automatically spend itself and summon the third bone minion. If you have three the charges will got to the max number but wont spend until a minion dies. Either through sacrifice or death.

If i remember correct the jagged Horror life span was because of PvE where some druids could hold them up permanently with their heal after the necros had cast them. so the minions could apply a huge amount of bleeding. So i think anet will not take back that nerf…

But I also think an ammo System on minion skills should help in Addition to more life, more movement Speed and lower casttimes/cooldowns to minions and their skills.

So necro could get some Gimmicks like reveal on minion skills.

For example:

Summon Shadow fiend:20 seconds cd.1/2 sec Casttime (like under water).

Minion Skill (Haunt): Command your shadow fiend to reveal and blind enemies within an area at the target Location.Range: 600 for target locationAoE Radius: 900 range around the target spotReveal for 10 secondsBlind for 10 secondsTargets: 3

2 Charges1 sec cd20 Seconds recharge

Summon Bone fiend:20 seconds cd.1/2 sec Casttime (like under water).

Minion Skill (Rigor Mortis): Immobilize your enemies and corrupt boons.Range 900AoE Radius 240Immobilize 3 sec.Corrupted boons: 1Targets 3

2 Charges5 sec cdRecharge 20 seconds

Summon Flesh wurm:casttime 0range 1200breaks stun

Minion skill (necrotic traversal):teleport 600 range in to the direction of your summoned flesh wurm.when the distance between you and your flesh wurm is below the treshhold, your flesh wurm get destroyedtrehshold 600 rangecharge 2cd 0 secRecharge 15 seconds

Traits:i think traits "flesh of the master" and "necromantic corruption" are fine.i would Change "death nova" to something that increase ammo per minion by 1 and decrease cd of minions and their skills in some way (OP, your idea here was interesting).

@Lily.1935 said:This is going to be an Open discussion about how to improve minions. I'll present some changes I'd like to see to the minions and then I'll open the floor to others who might have their own ideas about how they could be improved. I'll list a few ideas I've had and you jump in to add your 2 cents.

Some mechanical stuff

• Movement Speed: Minions should probably move a bit faster to reach their target without issue. These hulking creatures seem to be slow and struggle at times to catch their foes.

I'm against that, thematically undead should be slow. But that's just my point of view, I understand that in a game like GW2 where undead orrian can sprint faster than you it's a bit difficult to justify minion to be slow. Still ranger's pet are slow as well which is even stranger than the fact that necromancer minions aren't that slow...

• Sticky attacks: What I mean by this is like how the Moa transformation works. The player's auto in moa is sticky and will launch them forward so they can land attacks. I feel Minions should also have this sticky attacks to improve their pursuit of players and moving NPCs.

Not really a bad idea, this has been done for a few ranger's pets already afterall.

I'd add a suggestion:

• Give some baseline condition's resistance to minions, Yes they got plenty of health but I think that as undead they shouldn't be really affected by conditions.

Traits

Each of the traits should really be compressed into a single trait as a grandmaster trait. Having to dedicate so much to minions when the player is expected to run a weapon and attack that way isn't quite a great idea. Especially considering the functionality of minions is almost exclusively tied to death magic. (Baring Vampiric). Since minions are pretty close to self contained, their traits shouldn't spread across half of death magic.

• Flesh of the Master's Health increase and Necromantic Corruption's damage increase should be made baseline: This is something I've felt about the minions for a long while. The minions need a bit of a boost, while also the bonus toughness and condition transfer could be overwhelming in the future if the necromancer ever gets a proper minion master elite spec. Regardless of the design of that spec, these traits could push necromancer over the edge in terms of viability.

I do agree with the analysis. One thing that have always seemed strange with death magic is that traits push up minion's survivability and at the same time reward you for minion's death. It's contradictory.

• Death Nova: Increase the damage output from deaths. Minion skills recharge 2 seconds for each death around them and 1 second for each minion death. Drop the Jagged horror spawning, I have an idea for that.

Why not change change the damages by a condi transfert (from the necromancer to foes around the minion) on minion death. This can replace necromanctic corruption and death nova, freeing 2 traits.

• Adapt Trait| Flesh of the Master: When summoning a creature or object grant 2 seconds of protection to up to 5 allies around that creature or object within 240 radius. 5 second internal cool down. This would work with minions granting protection but also with Sand Shades or even runes that spawn a rock dog, parrot or the sigil that spawns a fleshreaver. I feel this would be a fairly potent Trait to have allowing synergy with minions but also scourge and any future elite spec that summons something. Death really feels like it should be a summoner's trait line.

I'm not against support in death magic but I'd prefer if it's not tied to minions. What you suggest here is against your initial purpose, introducing more minion's trait where you wanted to reduce them.

• Master Trait| Jagged Bones: Whenever you summon a creature, object or enter shroud summon a Jagged horror. 5 second internal cool down.

Again, no. Let's free a bit death magic from minions.

There is also beyond the veil granting you and your minions protection when leaving the shroud. This is a relic of the time when minions lacked survivability in PvE and it's no longer needed. I'm fine with the necromancer gaining prot but I think DM would benefit more from a 2nd effect not linked to minions.

Minions and Minion Skills

I only have two minions skills I feel should be changed and the rest I feel could safely stay the same without issue. I'm also going to talk about Jagged horrors.

• Summon Bone Minions: Bone minions now spawn 3 minions and now use the ammo system. Whenever a minion dies, a charge is spent automatically to spawn a new bone minion. Gain another charge after 5 seconds. You can have up to 2 charges.

Not sure 3 minions are needed. I can see the synergy with your new trait throught. If you really want to share prot this way, why not just tie it to the skill?

• Putrid Explosion: Putrid explosion now causes the minions to leap to the target location and explode on impact. The skill now has a 1/4 second cast time. 1 second cool down.

I agree with this, this would make bone minions a way better than the pitiable state they are in.

• Summon Bone Fiend: Summon Bone Fiend now spawns 2 bone fiends and uses the ammo system. After 10 seconds of one of the bone fiend's death, spawn a new one.

2 Bone fiend might be a tiny bit to strong.

• Rigor Mortis: Reduce cool down from 50 seconds to 30 seconds and pulls foes. Only one Bone fiend can use this skill at a time.

Why not.

• Jagged Horror: No longer has a 30 second life span, loses health each second instead. You may only control up to 6-8 Jagged horrors at a time. _I'll admit the 30 jagged horrors was pretty insane back in the day. But 6-8 should be much easier to manage in the balance. And having them degenerate health faster and faster much like minions did in GW1 would be a nice change of pace.

No opinion on this.

These are my ideas I've got. Feel free to add your two cents or disagree or propose your own ideas. I look forward to the discussion.

Bone fiend needs better damage. Most minions are utility, but his immob is questionable at best as utility, while damage lackluster. There is the double projectile finisher utility, but necro casts his fields under enemy, not his own feet, And if he does cast them under self (wells) then they are dark fields that end up healing the minion - not exactly the benefit you'd call "slot worthy".

Well, you could make it more into real minion master that could use minions to do dps and sacrifice them for some benefit, eg sacrifice bone minion to get a bone shield on necromancer that absorbs attacks and so with all minions, or keep it simple by just buffing them to have some more dmg or apply on hit effects, so we could actually see single target DPS and WvW necros using minions, or a specific minion for his on hit, sacrifice, utility skills, instead of use them only early game for some survivability

Remove them from game. Best improvement.

Or at least make them more active play and not the passive "I don't do anything and still get everything done"

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

• Adapt Trait| Flesh of the Master:
  When summoning a creature or object grant 2 seconds of protection to up to 5 allies around that creature or object within 240 radius. 5 second internal cool down.
  This would work with minions granting protection but also with Sand Shades or even runes that spawn a rock dog, parrot or the sigil that spawns a fleshreaver. I feel this would be a fairly potent Trait to have allowing synergy with minions but also scourge and any future elite spec that summons something. Death really feels like it should be a summoner's trait line.

Well, You don't need to take minions to gain access to this trait. My intention was to allow it to be used with other summoned things. Lets say the necromancer got Spirits or weapon spells. Well, suddenly this would apply protection for summoning them. It wouldn't just include Minions. The same is true for Sand Shades. And since it grants protection around the summon location you can use the shades to grant protection to allies. I'm willing to listen to an alternative suggestion if you have one. But at the same time I would like necromancer's Death magic to be somewhat tied to summoning.

I'd really like to see death reworked as a whole to better facilitate defense and support. Along with that poison theme they have going for them.

@Lily.1935 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

• Adapt Trait| Flesh of the Master:
  When summoning a creature or object grant 2 seconds of protection to up to 5 allies around that creature or object within 240 radius. 5 second internal cool down.
  This would work with minions granting protection but also with Sand Shades or even runes that spawn a rock dog, parrot or the sigil that spawns a fleshreaver. I feel this would be a fairly potent Trait to have allowing synergy with minions but also scourge and any future elite spec that summons something. Death really feels like it should be a summoner's trait line.

Well, minions are just a bad match for GW2 gameplay in general. The gw2's necromancer is a lot more oriented toward is own research on the boundary between life and death (life force/shroud). So any support should probably come from there (and scourge tend to show that anet have similar thought).

Honnestly, with 2 minion traits out of the picture in death magic, there is room for more fitting defensive or support trait, even poison specific traits. I've said it in another thread, but I'd like to tie auras to the traitline in order to create a bit of synergy with other professions (tempest). For me ideally we would have this kind of trait rework:

• soul comprehension: changed to grant life force when struck when you have an aura on you. (1s ICD)
• Beyond the veil: changed to grant you prot (3s) and make you perform a combo leap when leaving the shroud.
• Putrid defense: add 1 poison stack (2s) when struck while under the effect of an aura. (1s ICD)

With the basis of flesh of the master 's health increase and necromantic corruption 's damage increase made baseline.

• Death nova: dragged down to adept tier, whenever a minion die transfer conditions on you to foes around the minions. Minions skills recharge by 2 second for each death in the area.
• Master tier - Withering aura: Leaping in a poison field or a dark field also grant you a withering aura (4s) that poison (4s) and weaken (2s) foes that struck you.
• Grandmaster tier - Vile miasma: While in shroud generate a poison field at your feets that follow you (radius 300). Foes that stand into your poison fields deal 10% less damage and are slowed (2s) whenever they are poisoned (3s ICD).

I think this would be much more befitting of a gw2's defensive traitline than this overly minion focused thing that we actually got.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

• Adapt Trait| Flesh of the Master:
  When summoning a creature or object grant 2 seconds of protection to up to 5 allies around that creature or object within 240 radius. 5 second internal cool down.
  This would work with minions granting protection but also with Sand Shades or even runes that spawn a rock dog, parrot or the sigil that spawns a fleshreaver. I feel this would be a fairly potent Trait to have allowing synergy with minions but also scourge and any future elite spec that summons something. Death really feels like it should be a summoner's trait line.

• soul comprehension
  : changed to grant life force when struck when you have an aura on you. (1s ICD)
• Beyond the veil
  : changed to grant you prot (3s) and make you perform a combo leap when leaving the shroud.
• Putrid defense
  : add 1 poison stack (2s) when struck while under the effect of an aura. (1s ICD)

• Death nova
  : dragged down to adept tier, whenever a minion die transfer conditions on you to foes around the minions. Minions skills recharge by 2 second for each death in the area.
• Master tier -
  Withering aura
  : Leaping in a poison field or a dark field also grant you a withering aura (4s) that poison (4s) and weaken (2s) foes that struck you.
• Grandmaster tier -
  Vile miasma
  : While in shroud generate a poison field at your feets that follow you (radius 300). Foes that stand into your poison fields deal 10% less damage and are slowed (2s) whenever they are poisoned (3s ICD).

Minions are a strong part of the Death magic's identity and I have no interest in removing it from the spec. And lowering its importance to the spec is desirably but what you're asking for is synergy that doesn't exist. You mention auras but necromancers don't have them. You are also creating a leap finisher when there is no movement which is just a janky suggestion that would be confusing to new players and they likely wouldn't take it out of that confusion. We don't need that. Necromancer isn't really a combo finisher type profession and I really don't feel we need to be.

As for the Death nova, I would be fine with Jagged horrors being moved back to it as long as that cool down was dropped from 15 seconds to 5 seconds. But it still needs to be a grand master. Some of your ideas are alright, but I'd prefer they act as additions or replacements for some of the other traits Death has that under preform such as Putrid Defense, Deadly Strength, Reaper's Protection, Corrupter's Fervor, and Unholy Sanctuary. You want a general Death magic discussion, I'm willing to have that elsewhere. But here its about minions and summoning.

Also, if you want to do an Aura, Beyond the Veil Wouldn't be a bad choice to look at to provide an aura to you and your minions. But there isn't really Aura support, and there would need to be far more than one trait that grants an aura.

@Lily.1935 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:If these skills have charges, when will the flip skill kick into effect? Will we be able to use the summon skill if a charge comes up while the skill is flipped, if so how?

I'm not a fan of the idea of minions constantly respawning. I feel that adding more minions to each skill will just promote more passive game play in pve, while proving to be a nightmare in pvp/wvw due to the large(er) number of things on screen. It will probably catch lower ranked players off guard, but I doubt it will bring necro any viability high end where most people know how to outsmart an ai, abuse its pathing issues, and focus fire a target. It would also just bring the feeling of swarming your target with sheer ai numbers, especially if they become stickier and re-spawn automatically, and I doubt people will like that feeling in those modes.

I'm in the belief that necro minions should be disposable, i.e, their flip skill should kill off the minion for a decent pay off. Example: flesh golem's charge will kill the golem and the necro will launch a fast moving orb that's similar to a holo's prime light beam, in that it launches foes and deals heavy damage to them with a 1200 range.

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:If these skills have charges, when will the flip skill kick into effect? Will we be able to use the summon skill if a charge comes up while the skill is flipped, if so how?

You contradict yourself. Minions can't both be disposable and limited in numbers. They either need to be exceptional in their low numbers or disposable in high numbers. Think zerg vs terran. The zerg are low quality highly disposable while the terran are not.... Maybe I got my game reference wrong. Okay think WWII. The US tanks were kinda garbage in comparison to the German tanks. They'd frequently break down and were pretty shotty. But the raw numbers of them is what gave them an edge. Minions follow that same logic. Minions are supposed to be the zerg. They're suppose to be the US's shotty tanks.

Not necessarily, if one can resummon them in a relatively short time of blowing them up, the amount you have on the field won't be a problem

My trait proposal for a new grand masterReplace Death nova and make it a baseline effect on minion deaths. Its weak enough currently that it really just should be at this point and it frees up the spot. There should not be a trait that only focuses on minion deaths even more so when you will or should be performing your best while they are alive an kicking.

In Death nova's spot make the new trait

Masters MightActive Minions now gain bonus attributes for each stack of might on you.Speed increase per might stack 2% max 50%Damage increase per might stack 2% max 50%Critical chance per might stack 2% max 50%Damage/Condition damage reduced 3% (pvp only) max 75%

My reasoning behind this is in most cases a necro will almost always run spite and in the few exceptions you dont there are usually other traits that will still generate might for the necro. Like seriously necro is over loaded with might but we dont have alot of traits that play or take advantage of it other than awaken the pain.

1 minion trait like this makes up for several what would be needed traits and fixes to alot of the minions. You have increased movement, damage, and durability all wrapped up in 1 grand master the only other trait you would need would be traits that effect cooldowns

Ideally a trait like this removes the lazy factor from minion masters as well. IF the necro is performing well it will have might, if it has might its minions will be nasty and durable. I think all it takes to make good minions trait wise is 1 or 2 traits nothing more.

As far as sticky attacks yes. But this comes down to mininos having more than a single motion attack. Ideally they would need an ideal attack chain with 1 or 2 other skills mixed in that the necro does not have to command them to do. People have already made the argument that minions shouldn't be as strong as pets or trained like pets but these things are mindless and unpredictable I dont see why they cant have off skills and other cc that they can perform without the necro commanding them to do so much like pets do. Thats honestly all most of them need.

Flesh wurm needs to become a just shadow step with different visuals "Break stun and shadowstep to target location leaving a flesh wurm in your place. You may return to the wurm destroying it and gaining life force. "

Bone minion's explosion's critical hit chance should be the necromancer's. And so should be the critical hit damage.

Personally, I would like 2 things.

1. Add a way to force a minion's death to Death Nova like my suggestion to make minion skill activation while on CD force a Death Nova.
2. Improve game AI so all NPCs react more like players; e.g., dodge, focus on threats or easy kills, etc.

@Sephylon.4938 said:Not necessarily, if one can resummon them in a relatively short time of blowing them up, the amount you have on the field won't be a problem

That's exactly how bone minions works now. And it is a problem. Also, you're basically asking the devs to make the Guardian's old version of weapon spells. Which were terrible. They're not great now, but before they were extremely bad.

The actives of all minions need some serious updating to today’s standards.

just give all minions fear on hit

Honestly, I hope they leave them as they are. At the moment they are simply an easy mode in casual pve. And that's all they need to be.

changed mind

@Lahmia.2193 said:Honestly, I hope they leave them as they are. At the moment they are simply an easy mode in casual pve. And that's all they need to be.

I disagree. In todays gw2 environment with the excessive amount of stun breaks and cleanses, the actives need an update to be competitive.

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:Honestly, I hope they leave them as they are. At the moment they are simply an easy mode in casual pve. And that's all they need to be.

That wouldn't help them really, since taking them in anything other than pve is a waste. At the end of the day, they are AI. And anet won't be wanting another cancerous minion/turret meta on their hands. Which is why I find it unlikely they will see major buffs unless they are revamped (much in the same way spirit weapons were).

Just a quickie:

Shadow Fiend's Haunt should inflict fear, i mean it's supposed to be a jumpscare is it not?