A Question about comminication

I'm curious about the developer's stance on this subject. There have been posts illustrating what is coming to the game regarding PVP (new tournament style?), WVW (alliances) and some bits about Fractals but it's very little and we, the players, don't know what is coming to the game at all. I know revealing some of the upcoming would remove the surprise, but gameplay features and additions would not affect it. The above mentioned teams are already communicating with us in some way, telling us what they are working on and what is on the backlog, but we know nothing about anything else. I'd rather get hyped about something, start a discussion over it, provide feedback, rather than be surprised.

This isn't only about gameplay, but about gem store skins too. We've all been in a situation where a skin is released and we are like "This skin is perfect except for -that- bit". Imagine if you released concept arts of upcoming outfits, before the 3D modelers start work on them, telling us, the community, "This marvelous outfit is coming to the game, what is your feedback". This would create hype for it, and potentially help us fix some issues with the skins that would cause even more sales. Since gem store skins do not follow any kind of lore or story, they won't really reveal any future story details.

Some examples:Concept art of the remaining legendary weapons, so we can discuss them and provide feedback, before they are released. I know it's much harder to make changes to an item after it's released, but rather get the feedback as it's being designed would greatly help with the process.Concept art of upcoming black lion weapon sets or outfits, again to discuss them and find flaws that their designer might've missed and/or create hype and anticipation for them.High level balance updates for the various professions. There was a Deadeye update with zero feedback from the community, until after it was available. Why can't we discuss balance updates before they are live? "We are thinking of changing this and that" would do wonders.Teasing a new mount, way before it's released would've made the Beetle mount better in my opinion, more hype for it. Discussing its abilities would help as well, but I guess that would reveal some bits about it. The pre-episode release trailers are far too late to create enough hype, such great things you are working should be revealed to us a LOT sooner.

Again, this is something the other teams of Arenanet are doing, like the WVW and PVP teams, some would say they are slow but that's not the point, finding out what is coming to the game 1 week before it's released isn't enough time.

Again, this is something the other teams of Arenanet are doing, like the WVW and PVP teams, some would say they are slow but that's not the point, finding out what is coming to the game 1 week before it's released isn't enough time.

In WvW and PvP - posts that tell us about content we'll receive in the next 5 years are considered content in themselves ;). They tell us "we'll work on this thing that is big and will take us 2-3 years, so don't complain or expect anything else". LS gets more actual content updates than WvW and PvP get posts AND updates combined.

That said I'm quite happy with the pvp / wvw communication we get from benP. It's far better than it used to be in the past. I don't think you can complain regarding fractal / raid communication either. We got another ben updating us on those.

But it's clear these are mostly the actions of few devs being motivated enough to do their job AND communicate about it rather than the anet standard. The anet standard is that communication is hard, so it's better not to do it.

@"Etheri.5406" said:But it's clear these are mostly the actions of few devs being motivated enough to do their job AND communicate about it rather than the anet standard. The anet standard is that communication is hard, so it's better not to do it.

Yes exactly. I know they used to do this, in the end they scrapped this communication because they promised things they couldn't deliver. But there must be a valid middle ground between "Let's tell them everything -even those we aren't confident we'll get in time" and "you will know what we are working on just 1 week before it's already available"

I'm assuming it's because if the devs change something, many people start screaming and crying "but that isn't what the concept looked like" or "but you said we would get this" and "you lied to us about (insert whatever)". So unfortunately, I understand why Anet is a little closed mouthed on topics.

@"artemis.6781" said:I'm assuming it's because if the devs change something, many people start screaming and crying "but that isn't what the concept looked like" or "but you said we would get this" and "you lied to us about (insert whatever)". So unfortunately, I understand why Anet is a little closed mouthed on topics.

I have even seen a few people doing this with the contest weapons that were admittedly very close to the concept art. I cannot imagine the reaction when thing might really end up different that the concept art or the initial promise (which will naturally happen).

You can see it with other devs as well. Look at CDPR. I am sure that the reason that they are only showing cyberpunk in closed press events until its ready is the whole e3 witcher trailer situation.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:comminication:^)

ANET seems to have evolved into too much of a sprawling bureaucracy to communicate effectively about its upcoming changes on all fronts. It often seems like the left hand isn't aware of what the right hand is doing, so a true communication team would require great additional organizational effort.

An example of a game/devs who do this well on a regular basis is Warframe/Digital Extremes. Every two weeks, give or take, representatives of DE sit down on a couch, including the community management lead and various game devs (including the game director!), to talk about upcoming content during a

on Twitch. These discussions often include concept art developed months in advance of any actual release, as well as demonstrations of other kinds of content. Obviously none of the presenters are omniscient about everything going on in the game (though generally well informed) so they depend upon a cross section of upcoming content related to them from the numerous teams in order to have things to present. Simultaneous to this they answer both live questions and forum questions and give out in-game prizes. These "devstreams" are wildly successful and highly-regarded among the community, and part of the reason DE's reputation has grown so positively within the past year or so.

But with ANET, as you noted, communication seems to be carried out independently by devs on their own volition, when it really should be the company itself promoting changes in order to build publicity and hype through PR representatives. These independently-acting devs are really sticking their necks out, because ANET has demonstrated that such initiative can lead to them being summarily removed. But if ANET were to implement something like DE's devstream, it would require that either existing community managers or a new team would essentially serve as liaisons demanding updates from content teams and collating them on a regular basis 99% of the time, and presenting it to us (the players) the remaining 1%. That 99% of effort is a lot harder than it sounds, and becomes even more difficult when the various company pipelines are crossed, confused, and disorganized. I assume at this point that ANET simply judged the expense and energy of such an effort isn't worth their time or money this late in development. It's disappointing because it I think it would be a really positive thing for the game.

@Soa Cirri.6012 said::^)

Yes! Digital Extremes is the shinning example that I had in mind.

I assume at this point that ANET simply judged the expense and energy of such an effort isn't worth their time or money this late in development. It's disappointing because it I think it would be a really positive thing for the game.

I guess their over-hyping in the past, creating false expectations and failing to deliver what was promised is key in their decision. The Guild Wars 2 hype-train was real! But I believe there is always to time to reverse that and find a good middle ground.

@maddoctor.2738 said:I guess their over-hyping in the past, creating false expectations and failing to deliver what was promised is key in their decision. The Guild Wars 2 hype-train was real! But I believe there is always to time to reverse that and find a good middle ground.

I agree, for things like this, if executed well. There's always leeway for another chance to give it a shot. DE has had similar problems with overhyping/under-releasing a few major updates, but a combination of honesty and an earnest desire to make amends has always seen them bounce back.

But it seems like ANET responds to controversy by withdrawing further and further into a thicker and thicker shell. It is true that no communication is better than bad communication, but good communication can really revolutionize the relationship between ANET and the player base in amazing ways, and is something I've always hoped we would see more of.

We don't get proper communication anymore because of the whining it always brings. In the beginning of the game, ANet was far more open about what they're working on, what would come and when we could expect it to hit the servers. Things were different then, we didn't have much expectaions and the community was less entitled and vocal (iirc, kids these days, get off of my lawn...).

Since HoT drove the monthlong Hypetrain against a wall on release, communication has changed. Instead of ETAs months/weeks ahead we get the information shortly before release. Why's that? By mentioning an ETA, the forums fill with "NOOOOOOOOO, Don't do it, I'll uninstall, I'm a gemwhale" threads, ppl start to project their deepest fear into the announcement and get vocal on dem interwebs. If the ETA is missed by half an hour, the first "So you lied to us again, update when?????????, where's my fix" threads, ppl feel entitled to get everything, for free, now and it needs to be perfect or it's crap. Communities are no longer capable of nuanced opinions and I understand every company who doesn't want to temper with such a volatile entity(the community).

And the community doesn't even listen if something gets announced. Players have this mental disorder that let's them understand or take from whatever communication is given, whatever fits their narrative. If they want to be upset or hyped about something, they will be upset or hyped, regardeless of the communication given. How oftan has ANet stated that they have no plans on developing [X], and did the "but we need [X] naow!!!!!, why isn't [X] in the game it would be awesome????, where's my [X], i payed for this game and therefor it should only cater to my needs"-threads end? No, becausse ppl don't read and can't handle announcements that don't fit their feelings.(again, get off of my lawn, back in my days....). Usually, if a dev steps down the hellhole that communication is nowadays, it's not helping much in regards to getting ppl informed. If a dev states that, "yes we're working on [X]", all he/she gets for it is "why isn't it allready in the game? when will it be released? shouldn't you be working on capes instead of [X] as everyone wants capes?". If a dev states that, "no, [X] is not on the table", all replies boil down to "but why not? can we have [X] please, I know you stated that you won't do it but can we have [X] please?, they said it wasn't on the table, but maybe it still is and they're just toying with us can we have [X] please."

You kids these days, with your fancy interwebs and them all flashy communities. Back in my days, a studio released a game and the game was hopefully finished as the devs had imagined it at this point. If you were lucky and owned personalized computaion machine, you could maybe hope for patches, should any bugs or inconveniences occur. But communication between the devs and the community wasn't really a thing. Sure, interaction with ones community is important and definitely makes developpement harder but better these days. On the other hand, devs could basically make the game they wanted to make w/o all the """"""""""""""internet experts"""""""""" giving super valuable inputs like "i don't like the design of that sword, the shape is ok but i like green as a color so it should be green, it not being green is a great loss for me and therefor the game and the world by extension" or "i don't like the design of that sword, the color is ok but i like swords to look really heavy and clunky so it should look like that, it not looking heavy and clunky is a big loss for me and therefor the game and the world by extension" or "i don't like the design of that sword, i like axes more, it should be an axe. it not being an axe..." you get where I'm going. An opinion is not constructive and by far not a valid suggestion on it's own, but since we have reached a time of ever growing entitlement issues, ppl tend to confuse these three.

Anyways, I know this text is too long for most of you to read and I won't bother with a tl:dr, if you care, read it.

And get off of my lawn. ;)

@"lokh.2695" said:We don't get proper communication anymore because of the whining it always brings. In the beginning of the game, ANet was far more open about what they're working on, what would come and when we could expect it to hit the servers. Things were different then, we didn't have much expectaions and the community was less entitled and vocal (iirc, kids these days, get off of my lawn...).

And so we get whining for not having communication at all.

And the community doesn't even listen if something gets announced.

I think there are different types of communication here. What happened with Heart of Thorns was mostly misinformation, remember the "all maps will have 3 biomes" line? Only Verdant Brink has 3 actual biomes, the other 3 maps of HoT have at best 2, and only at certain places and not covering the entire map. Remember the Gen 2 Legendary Weapons that were supposed to come after HoT? We are how many years later and still no end in sight.

I get it, people will complain if they start communicating with us again, however, that's doesn't have to be the case. Communication can open up dialogue and allow the developers to get feedback. You know when they did the reveals for many of the HoT specializations, there was lots of discussion about it and we managed to get some much needed changes before release. An example I remember was "Rebound", the elite shout of Tempest, that was practically useless and they changed it thanks to feedback, to be more useful. We didn't get any of that with Path of Fire and got some seriously overpowered specializations with many things easily solvable with some community feedback.

Not all communication is bad, and not everyone that is responding to such communication is an angry whinny kid. Some of us love this game and want to provide our own insight on how to make it better, and it WORKED in the past.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:This isn't only about gameplay, but about gem store skins too. We've all been in a situation where a skin is released and we are like "This skin is perfect except for -that- bit". Imagine if you released concept arts of upcoming outfits, before the 3D modelers start work on them, telling us, the community, "This marvelous outfit is coming to the game, what is your feedback". This would create hype for it, and potentially help us fix some issues with the skins that would cause even more sales. Since gem store skins do not follow any kind of lore or story, they won't really reveal any future story details.

Some examples:Concept art of the remaining legendary weapons, so we can discuss them and provide feedback, before they are released. I know it's much harder to make changes to an item after it's released, but rather get the feedback as it's being designed would greatly help with the process.Concept art of upcoming black lion weapon sets or outfits, again to discuss them and find flaws that their designer might've missed and/or create hype and anticipation for them.High level balance updates for the various professions. There was a Deadeye update with zero feedback from the community, until after it was available. Why can't we discuss balance updates before they are live? "We are thinking of changing this and that" would do wonders.Teasing a new mount, way before it's released would've made the Beetle mount better in my opinion, more hype for it. Discussing its abilities would help as well, but I guess that would reveal some bits about it. The pre-episode release trailers are far too late to create enough hype, such great things you are working should be revealed to us a LOT sooner.

I'm all for more communication. But who is this "we" that is in agreement about how a weapon, armor, outfit or mount should look? When is there ever unilateral agreement on this forum over such a subjective matter? And if there is a "we" then how would Anet ever get anything accomplished designing by committee? What about those not in the "we" group whose opinion was not realized, how do they feel when the released skin isn't their ideal?

Balance changes would be even worse. Not only would those that play the targeted profession chime in, but those who don't but don't want to see some benefit go to a favored profession other than their own speak out.

I'm not saying things are perfect as-is, but I don't see how this would help.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@lokh.2695 said:We don't get proper communication anymore because of the whining it always brings. In the beginning of the game, ANet was far more open about what they're working on, what would come and when we could expect it to hit the servers. Things were different then, we didn't have much expectaions and the community was less entitled and vocal (iirc, kids these days, get off of my lawn...).

And the community doesn't even listen if something gets announced.

You do have apoint with the community feedback on the HoT specs and whatnot, we gave revenant weapon swap and made DH longbow at least not root you while AA'ing after all ;). However one of the more important differences between the situation then and the release of POF was the open betas. We did get those in HoT and they were well ahead of release. Ppl could actually play the game, then give an informed opinion about their experience. I really liked it. The open beta for PoF was far more limited and much closer to release if I remember correctly.

It depends on how. As I said, nuanced opinions. Communication can be great if done right(on the devs side but also on the communities side). I just don't see it happening. Maybe it's a problem of genre. MMOs get so many different players involved with different approaches and expectations to the game that it's impossible for a dev to give everybody everything all the time.

There fore ArenaNet will stick with MO's directive on how they'll communicate: we'll talk about it when it's ready, until then you can guess and speculate all you want.