Elder Dragon Civil War — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Elder Dragon Civil War

Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

Considering that they work on the Highlander principle it seems strange that there isn’t more of a conflict between them going on. Has there ever been any kind of fighting in recorded history?

In either case it got my mind racing think about a potential storyline where the Sons of Svanir found out about how killing one Elder Dragon essentially powers up the others, so they mount a flat-out war against one of the remaining ones in order to “feed” Jormag by killing it.

Since the Sons technically are not “pure” minions of Jormag but are somewhat autonomous this really wouldn’t be one Dragon declaring war on another, so it wouldn’t violate whatever “non-aggression pact” that possibly exists between them.

Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

Comments

  • Lametoile.7394Lametoile.7394 Member ✭✭✭

    I think that Elder dragons are somehow aware that they are all necessary to keep magic in balance, and thus preerve their own survival (based on Mordremoth' word). Or at least, they know they are very powerful and avoid confrontation because the risks are too high.

    We don't know the origins of Tyria. Maybe there were more Elder Dragons. Maybe the current ones were not even the big Elders once upon a time. We can't ensure it never happened.

    I think Sons of Svanir would probably regard killing another Elder dragons as a marvellous thing to do. Both to ensure their own glory, thus following the traditions of their people, and power up Jormag they probably see as the greatest one. However, they aboslutely doesn't have the forces, power, tactics and knowledge to accomplish that. It took the combined forces of thousand of elites dedicated members from all five races to defeat Zhaitan and Mordremoth. Sons of Svanir can only die trying.

    The very concept of the sons of svanir is kinda weird. How did they react when they knew Elder Dragons could be killed? Why doesn't they worship other dragons? Why isn't there ANY other group in Tyria that worship and serve them? Primodius, and Kralkattorik would probably not be interested but it doesn't prevent isolated factions from trying on their own.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You could easily “power up” the Sons to be capable of threatening the life of an Elder Dragon. You could have some kind of new villain leader who has a charismatic cult of personality that sees their recruiting rise through the roof, for example. Then giving said villain access to some kind of legendary McGuffin (like what Braham did in order to chip the tooth of Jormag) etc.

    As for Elder Dragons being killed, I don’t think it affected the Sons much. They see him as a Spirit of the Wild and they are not seen as immortal deities by the Norn (unlike, let’s say, how the humans tend to view their gods).

    Sure, they consider him the most powerful of the bunch so they probably consider his death being highly unlikely, but I don’t think they see him as immortal - just that there isn’t anything more powerful than Jormag out there that could possibly kill him.

    ... if that makes any sense?

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • @Lametoile.7394 said:
    I think that Elder dragons are somehow aware that they are all necessary to keep magic in balance, and thus preerve their own survival (based on Mordremoth' word). Or at least, they know they are very powerful and avoid confrontation because the risks are too high.

    We don't know the origins of Tyria. Maybe there were more Elder Dragons. Maybe the current ones were not even the big Elders once upon a time. We can't ensure it never happened.

    I think Sons of Svanir would probably regard killing another Elder dragons as a marvellous thing to do. Both to ensure their own glory, thus following the traditions of their people, and power up Jormag they probably see as the greatest one. However, they aboslutely doesn't have the forces, power, tactics and knowledge to accomplish that. It took the combined forces of thousand of elites dedicated members from all five races to defeat Zhaitan and Mordremoth. Sons of Svanir can only die trying.

    The very concept of the sons of svanir is kinda weird. How did they react when they knew Elder Dragons could be killed? Why doesn't they worship other dragons? Why isn't there ANY other group in Tyria that worship and serve them? Primodius, and Kralkattorik would probably not be interested but it doesn't prevent isolated factions from trying on their own.

    Think of it from a fanatic's point of view. Sure they killed other elder dragons, but they don't worship the elder dragons, they worship Jormag specifically, and no one has been able to kill him yet. The god of war could at best put him back to sleep! Our glorious leader will one day rise again and bless his loyal followers and rule the world!

  • Rognik.2579Rognik.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Considering that they work on the Highlander principle it seems strange that there isn’t more of a conflict between them going on. Has there ever been any kind of fighting in recorded history?

    To my knowledge, there have been no documentation about the dragons or their minions fighting each other. None of the zones even have more than one type of dragon minion in them, so we can't observe them fight currently.

    In either case it got my mind racing think about a potential storyline where the Sons of Svanir found out about how killing one Elder Dragon essentially powers up the others, so they mount a flat-out war against one of the remaining ones in order to “feed” Jormag by killing it.

    This could definitely be a future storyline, but the Svanir don't seem to know much outside of their immediate domain. In fact, it seems like a lot of the members get dumber after joining, except for a few mentally strong ones, if we look at that one shaman in Bitterfrost Frontier.

    Since the Sons technically are not “pure” minions of Jormag but are somewhat autonomous this really wouldn’t be one Dragon declaring war on another, so it wouldn’t violate whatever “non-aggression pact” that possibly exists between them.

    There is no non-aggression pact, at least from what a dev said long ago. If two dragons had tried to conquer the same area, their minions would most likely fight each other. As I mentioned earlier, there is no spot in game where we can currently test this. The closest we came was using Jormag's and Primordus' energies against each other.

  • @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Considering that they work on the Highlander principle it seems strange that there isn’t more of a conflict between them going on. Has there ever been any kind of fighting in recorded history?

    Well, despite common belief, the Elder Dragons aren't mindless beasts sole-bent on nothing but more power. Even the greediest of them, Kralkatorrik, is able to differentiate betrayal (Glint) and separate "friend" from foe (battle at Kodash Bazaar). They likely know that imbalancing The All will destroy Tyria, or at the very least they recognize that fighting another Elder Dragon is very risky business.

    As for records of conflict, dev statements have actually been contradictive in that regard. At one point they said their minions do fight, but at another point they said their minions have never interacted. So it's unclear what's the real case is (I can no longer recall which statement came later), though the only case we really see them interacting is CoE explorable where they're all under Subject Alpha's control, which isn't your typical scenario due to Alpha's multiple-corruption state.

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    In either case it got my mind racing think about a potential storyline where the Sons of Svanir found out about how killing one Elder Dragon essentially powers up the others, so they mount a flat-out war against one of the remaining ones in order to “feed” Jormag by killing it.

    Since the Sons technically are not “pure” minions of Jormag but are somewhat autonomous this really wouldn’t be one Dragon declaring war on another, so it wouldn’t violate whatever “non-aggression pact” that possibly exists between them.

    An interesting idea, but it should be kept in mind that the Sons of Svanir revere Jormag because they view it as "the ultimate predator". They "feed" its minions and corrupt powerful entities for the sake of receiving Jormag's blessing, but they also hunt icebrood to prove their own strength. Since proving strength is everything to them, I think that if they believed themselves capable of felling an Elder Dragon themselves, they wouldn't do so for Jormag's sake but for their own. After all, if they could fell one of Jormag's kin, couldn't they also fell Jormag, thus be above the "apex predator"? I'd imagine any such Sons of Svanir with that mentality would go the route of Gaheron and dub himself a god-like being.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Considering that they work on the Highlander principle it seems strange that there isn’t more of a conflict between them going on. Has there ever been any kind of fighting in recorded history?

    Well, despite common belief, the Elder Dragons aren't mindless beasts sole-bent on nothing but more power. Even the greediest of them, Kralkatorrik, is able to differentiate betrayal (Glint) and separate "friend" from foe (battle at Kodash Bazaar). They likely know that imbalancing The All will destroy Tyria, or at the very least they recognize that fighting another Elder Dragon is very risky business.

    As for records of conflict, dev statements have actually been contradictive in that regard. At one point they said their minions do fight, but at another point they said their minions have never interacted. So it's unclear what's the real case is (I can no longer recall which statement came later), though the only case we really see them interacting is CoE explorable where they're all under Subject Alpha's control, which isn't your typical scenario due to Alpha's multiple-corruption state.

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    In either case it got my mind racing think about a potential storyline where the Sons of Svanir found out about how killing one Elder Dragon essentially powers up the others, so they mount a flat-out war against one of the remaining ones in order to “feed” Jormag by killing it.

    Since the Sons technically are not “pure” minions of Jormag but are somewhat autonomous this really wouldn’t be one Dragon declaring war on another, so it wouldn’t violate whatever “non-aggression pact” that possibly exists between them.

    An interesting idea, but it should be kept in mind that the Sons of Svanir revere Jormag because they view it as "the ultimate predator". They "feed" its minions and corrupt powerful entities for the sake of receiving Jormag's blessing, but they also hunt icebrood to prove their own strength. Since proving strength is everything to them, I think that if they believed themselves capable of felling an Elder Dragon themselves, they wouldn't do so for Jormag's sake but for their own. After all, if they could fell one of Jormag's kin, couldn't they also fell Jormag, thus be above the "apex predator"? I'd imagine any such Sons of Svanir with that mentality would go the route of Gaheron and dub himself a god-like being.

    I think the Sons definitely see the other Elder Dragons as inferior to Jormag. I mean, he is the Dragon. I don’t think any Norn, Son or otherwise, seem to acknowledge the other ones as Spirits of the Wild - or at all. Which, all things considered, is quite strange. The Norns in general not reacting to the other Elder Dragons is another ignored aspect of them by Anet...

    As for the Sons in particular, they have surely heard of the deaths of both Mordremoth and Zhaitan by now, yet their reverence for Dragon/Jormag doesn’t seem to falter as a result. But, again, that could also just be a result of Anet’s mistreatment/ignoring everything Norn. The Sons as a faction are pretty much unchanged since launch.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • During some temporary open world event, I believe we did see the minions cross over, and they are hostile to each other. I think it may have been the Mordrem invasion, and in Kessex Hills, they can interact with Destroyers.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i guess the "dominion" thing come play here.

    The dominion has conflicting energies that can mutually annihilate each other(like Jormag x Primords), so perhaps an elder dragon will avoid entering another's elder area unless one has died by the hand of others.

    Tannhauser Engineer(SoS) | Atlantean Sword | Khel the Undead

  • Palador.2170Palador.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think it's more that they tend to go where the food is, or at least send their minions there. If another dragon has claimed an area, it's going to be draining the magic for itself. Thus, there's less 'food' in that area, so why would another dragon go there?

    Lip synching is just mime karaoke.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I think the Sons definitely see the other Elder Dragons as inferior to Jormag. I mean, he is the Dragon. I don’t think any Norn, Son or otherwise, seem to acknowledge the other ones as Spirits of the Wild - or at all. Which, all things considered, is quite strange. The Norns in general not reacting to the other Elder Dragons is another ignored aspect of them by Anet...

    As for the Sons in particular, they have surely heard of the deaths of both Mordremoth and Zhaitan by now, yet their reverence for Dragon/Jormag doesn’t seem to falter as a result. But, again, that could also just be a result of Anet’s mistreatment/ignoring everything Norn. The Sons as a faction are pretty much unchanged since launch.

    While theoretically possible, we cannot be certain one way or the other, unfortunately, because there is no mention of the Elder Dragons near the Sons of Svanir. Be it by name or the notion that there's more than one Elder Dragon. We don't know how well knowledge spreads across Central Tyria, but outside the main cities it may be fairly slow. The Sons aren't really welcomed in most communities, even with the lore-established norn opinion of "judge the individual not the group", as we see many norn judging the group because of personal experience, both in and out of Hoelbrak.

    Or the Sons may simply be the Tyrian equivalent of Flat Earthers and vehemently deny the existence of other "Elder Dragons" and consider any notion of another Elder Dragon to be nothing more than propaganda for how can there be anything on par to the apex predator that is Dragon.

    The few times we went back to norn lands, the most interaction we got with the Sons of Svanir was "they're increasing activity" (Flame and Frost), "they're kidnapping more people" (Season 2), and "the ones we meet are actually nigh-mindless icebrood but we'll keep calling them Svanir because how can we not make it more confusing for players while we poke at their stupidity for attacking all wildlife" (Bitterfrost).

    @Matt H.6142 said:
    During some temporary open world event, I believe we did see the minions cross over, and they are hostile to each other. I think it may have been the Mordrem invasion, and in Kessex Hills, they can interact with Destroyers.

    It was in Brisban, actually, now that you mention it. But the mordrem were hostile to a lot of things, and not hostile to a lot more. This may have been more due to a quick program job, and they didn't properly define hostility parameters for the NPCs.

    Because in the same light, we have some mordrem five feet from the Dragonbrand in Iron Marches, yet no interaction between branded and mordrem.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    @Lametoile.7394 said:

    The very concept of the sons of svanir is kinda weird. How did they react when they knew Elder Dragons could be killed? Why doesn't they worship other dragons?

    Quoting you here, but it's come up a few times in this thread. For myself? I don't think it's strange at all.

    Try reversing things for a moment. Say you're a normal norn who follows Bear. Does that mean that you revere every bear you come across? Does that mean that the death of one of those bears shakes your admiration for Bear?

    By calling him Dragon, the Sons are claiming Jormag is the embodiment of all dragons. Zhaitan, Mordremoth, those are lower-case b bears. What happens to an animal doesn't affect the way the norn view a spirit; what happens to an Elder Dragon wouldn't affect the way the Sons see Dragon.

    (As a separate note, though, the norn don't expect Spirits to be unkillable.)

    Of course we, as players, have access to all sorts of evidence that Jormag is just another Elder Dragon, but would the Sons in their mountain camps have first-hand experience with that? Would they accept second-hand accounts even if they were offered?

    Why isn't there ANY other group in Tyria that worship and serve them? Primodius, and Kralkattorik would probably not be interested but it doesn't prevent isolated factions from trying on their own.

    Mostly, I figure, because trying gets you killed. The Sons exist on the scale they do because the one society that believes apex predators to be worthy of veneration and emulation happened to bump into the one Elder Dragon who encourages and 'rewards' mortal converts. Any other society, and any other Elder Dragon, wouldn't produce the same effect. There'd be no tempting offer of power to dangle in front of hubris, no pre-existing belief system to co-opt*, and any interaction with the subject of their worship would cut the petitioner's existence in the world short. Not to say there haven't been efforts- the Flame Legion, dredge, Inquest, and this oddball have all tried to draw on the dragons' power in one way or another- but pulling what the Sons do would require nihilism or extreme foolhardiness, and the fate of the first couple would make sure that it never developed into a cult following.

    *Potential exception for the krait, if there's any truth to the old fan theory that the DSD's minions are, or are mistaken for, the krait's Prophets.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Lametoile.7394 said:

    The very concept of the sons of svanir is kinda weird. How did they react when they knew Elder Dragons could be killed? Why doesn't they worship other dragons?

    Quoting you here, but it's come up a few times in this thread. For myself? I don't think it's strange at all.

    Try reversing things for a moment. Say you're a normal norn who follows Bear. Does that mean that you revere every bear you come across? Does that mean that the death of one of those bears shakes your admiration for Bear?

    By calling him Dragon, the Sons are claiming Jormag is the embodiment of all dragons. Zhaitan, Mordremoth, those are lower-case b bears. What happens to an animal doesn't affect the way the norn view a spirit; what happens to an Elder Dragon wouldn't affect the way the Sons see Dragon.

    (As a separate note, though, the norn don't expect Spirits to be unkillable.)

    Of course we, as players, have access to all sorts of evidence that Jormag is just another Elder Dragon, but would the Sons in their mountain camps have first-hand experience with that? Would they accept second-hand accounts even if they were offered?

    Why isn't there ANY other group in Tyria that worship and serve them? Primodius, and Kralkattorik would probably not be interested but it doesn't prevent isolated factions from trying on their own.

    Mostly, I figure, because trying gets you killed. The Sons exist on the scale they do because the one society that believes apex predators to be worthy of veneration and emulation happened to bump into the one Elder Dragon who encourages and 'rewards' mortal converts. Any other society, and any other Elder Dragon, wouldn't produce the same effect. There'd be no tempting offer of power to dangle in front of hubris, no pre-existing belief system to co-opt*, and any interaction with the subject of their worship would cut the petitioner's existence in the world short. Not to say there haven't been efforts- the Flame Legion, dredge, Inquest, and this oddball have all tried to draw on the dragons' power in one way or another- but pulling what the Sons do would require nihilism or extreme foolhardiness, and the fate of the first couple would make sure that it never developed into a cult following.

    *Potential exception for the krait, if there's any truth to the old fan theory that the DSD's minions are, or are mistaken for, the krait's Prophets.

    I disagree.

    Jormag/Dragon is indeed quite unique because unlike the other Spirits he does not represent a species but an individual.

    Bear is all bears. Wolf all wolves. Dragon is just Jormag. There is no implication that they consider him the representative of the Elder Dragon “species” as their worship him by name - Jormag and Dragon are used interchangeably by the Sons.

    I think it is far more likely that they simply see Jormag as above and superior to the other Elder Dragons (something which the death of a couple of them while Jormag still lives would reinforce).

    But in the end, we don’t know. As I said previously, the Sons as a faction are stuck pretty much in their launch state. There has been no development on their part since then. We don’t see the effects of the other Dragons’ deaths simply because the Sons are caught in a perpetual “vacuum” where not even Zhaitan has been killed yet. :triumph:

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Jormag/Dragon is indeed quite unique because unlike the other Spirits he does not represent a species but an individual.

    Bear is all bears. Wolf all wolves. Dragon is just Jormag. There is no implication that they consider him the representative of the Elder Dragon “species” as their worship him by name - Jormag and Dragon are used interchangeably by the Sons.

    Aaron was saying that the fact that they revere him as a Spirit of the Wild is that implication. Not that he is a representation of all dragons, but by defining him to be "Dragon", the Spirit of the Wild, they are defining him to be "the representation of all dragons in the world" just as Bear is defined as the representation of all bears.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Jormag/Dragon is indeed quite unique because unlike the other Spirits he does not represent a species but an individual.

    Bear is all bears. Wolf all wolves. Dragon is just Jormag. There is no implication that they consider him the representative of the Elder Dragon “species” as their worship him by name - Jormag and Dragon are used interchangeably by the Sons.

    Aaron was saying that the fact that they revere him as a Spirit of the Wild is that implication. Not that he is a representation of all dragons, but by defining him to be "Dragon", the Spirit of the Wild, they are defining him to be "the representation of all dragons in the world" just as Bear is defined as the representation of all bears.

    Which, as I said, doesn’t jive with the fact that they worship the individual Jormag.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Jormag/Dragon is indeed quite unique because unlike the other Spirits he does not represent a species but an individual.

    Bear is all bears. Wolf all wolves. Dragon is just Jormag. There is no implication that they consider him the representative of the Elder Dragon “species” as their worship him by name - Jormag and Dragon are used interchangeably by the Sons.

    Aaron was saying that the fact that they revere him as a Spirit of the Wild is that implication. Not that he is a representation of all dragons, but by defining him to be "Dragon", the Spirit of the Wild, they are defining him to be "the representation of all dragons in the world" just as Bear is defined as the representation of all bears.

    Which, as I said, doesn’t jive with the fact that they worship the individual Jormag.

    Norn don't worship every bear, they worship Bear. They don't worship every wolf, but Wolf. They don't worship every dragon, but Dragon.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Jormag/Dragon is indeed quite unique because unlike the other Spirits he does not represent a species but an individual.

    Bear is all bears. Wolf all wolves. Dragon is just Jormag. There is no implication that they consider him the representative of the Elder Dragon “species” as their worship him by name - Jormag and Dragon are used interchangeably by the Sons.

    Aaron was saying that the fact that they revere him as a Spirit of the Wild is that implication. Not that he is a representation of all dragons, but by defining him to be "Dragon", the Spirit of the Wild, they are defining him to be "the representation of all dragons in the world" just as Bear is defined as the representation of all bears.

    Which, as I said, doesn’t jive with the fact that they worship the individual Jormag.

    Norn don't worship every bear, they worship Bear. They don't worship every wolf, but Wolf.

    Sigh. That’s exactly my point. The Sons’ worship of Dragon is unique just because they seemingly worship Jormag as an individual. A corporeal “in the flesh” creature. The names of Dragon and Jormag are used interchangeably by them.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Jormag/Dragon is indeed quite unique because unlike the other Spirits he does not represent a species but an individual.

    Bear is all bears. Wolf all wolves. Dragon is just Jormag. There is no implication that they consider him the representative of the Elder Dragon “species” as their worship him by name - Jormag and Dragon are used interchangeably by the Sons.

    Aaron was saying that the fact that they revere him as a Spirit of the Wild is that implication. Not that he is a representation of all dragons, but by defining him to be "Dragon", the Spirit of the Wild, they are defining him to be "the representation of all dragons in the world" just as Bear is defined as the representation of all bears.

    Which, as I said, doesn’t jive with the fact that they worship the individual Jormag.

    Norn don't worship every bear, they worship Bear. They don't worship every wolf, but Wolf.

    Sigh. That’s exactly my point. The Sons’ worship of Dragon is unique just because they seemingly worship Jormag as an individual. A corporeal “in the flesh” creature. The names of Dragon and Jormag are used interchangeably by them.

    I'm the one who should be sighing.

    You're apparently looking at things objectively, and not from the subjective view of the Sons of Svanir. To the Sons, Jormag isn't "just an Elder Dragon", he's not "a corporeal in the flesh creature", he's a Spirit of the Wild. They might use his name just as much as they use the term Dragon, but that doesn't change the fact that the Sons of Svanir believe Jormag to be a Spirit of the Wild.

    They worship Jormag as an individual, yes, but norn worship Bear, Wolf, Raven, etc. each as individuals too.

    So in the Sons of Svanir's mind, Jormag does represent a species, because every Spirit of the Wild does and in the Sons of Svanir's mind, Jormag is a Spirit of the Wild (and the strongest one).

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Jormag/Dragon is indeed quite unique because unlike the other Spirits he does not represent a species but an individual.

    Bear is all bears. Wolf all wolves. Dragon is just Jormag. There is no implication that they consider him the representative of the Elder Dragon “species” as their worship him by name - Jormag and Dragon are used interchangeably by the Sons.

    Aaron was saying that the fact that they revere him as a Spirit of the Wild is that implication. Not that he is a representation of all dragons, but by defining him to be "Dragon", the Spirit of the Wild, they are defining him to be "the representation of all dragons in the world" just as Bear is defined as the representation of all bears.

    Which, as I said, doesn’t jive with the fact that they worship the individual Jormag.

    Norn don't worship every bear, they worship Bear. They don't worship every wolf, but Wolf.

    Sigh. That’s exactly my point. The Sons’ worship of Dragon is unique just because they seemingly worship Jormag as an individual. A corporeal “in the flesh” creature. The names of Dragon and Jormag are used interchangeably by them.

    I'm the one who should be sighing.

    You're looking at things objectively, and not from the subjective view of the Sons of Svanir. To the Sons, Jormag isn't "just an Elder Dragon", he's not "a corporeal in the flesh creature", he's the Spirit of the Wild.

    Yes, yes he is a creature “in the flesh”. That is why they refer to him by his name as well as Dragon. Which is why, as I said, the Sons and their worship of him stands out. Unlike Bear and the rest there is something physical to worship. There is no giant bear out there. No giant wolf. But there is Jormag.

    It is this dual worship of Jormag as both the spirit Dragon and the physical Jormag itself that busts the notion that Dragon should somehow represent all of them. It doesn’t. There is literally no evidence that Dragon should be anything but Jormag, while there is plenty of evidence to the contrary (such as the interchangeability of the terms).

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Bear has something "physical" too. Except that it's a spirit. But we actually meet Bear, in both games. We also meet Minotaur, Wolf, and Snow Leopard in the PS with Bear. They may not be "flesh", but they are singular entities, just like Jormag.

    It doesn't matter that the Sons of Svanir call Jormag by his name, they still treat him as the top Spirit of the Wild.

    It is this dual worship of Jormag as both the spirit Dragon and the physical Jormag itself that busts the notion that Dragon should somehow represent all of them.

    No, it really doesn't. Every Spirit of the Wild is a singular entity that represents the species. To the Sons of Svanir, Jormag is the same. A singular entity who represents the whole of dragon-kind.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If it is a spirit it is not physical, mate. They’re mutually exclusive: incorporeal and corporeal.

    Jormag is the only Spirit that has physical/corporeal presence in addition to the supposed spirt/incorporeal form. I say supposed because AFAIK there is no real proof that Jormag is actually a Spirit of the Wild. For all we know the Sons could just be deluded about that and projecting it onto Jormag. The fact that he is an Elder Dragon (which is something entirely different from a Spirit of the Wild) seems to reinforce that notion, IMO.

    Perhaps “Dragon” was actually the Spirit of wyverns and their ilk initially (since they’re “animals” not related to the Elder Dragons but do look the part) and the rise of Jormag in recent days started to outshadow the “real Dragon” (or maybe consumed it or something) and eventually grew to take it’s place in the pantheon.

    ...dang Anet and their refusal the expand on this stuff...

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    Jormag and Dragon are used interchangeably by the Sons.

    I actually do find this to be a fascinating inconsistency with mainstream norn practice, but instead of chalking it up to the Sons of Svanir entirely turning their backs on their people by worshipping a corporeal entity (and there are places where it's said the Sons treat Dragon as a spirit), I reckon it's a result of how the Sons and icebrood blend into each other without a clear delineation. A norn would refer to the spirit as Dragon, but a dragon minion refers to its master either by name or as 'the dragon'. The Sons, who combine both of those influences, can be found using any of the three.

    Besides, if Wolf popped up one day and announced his real name was Phillip, I reckon the norn would adopt that out of respect.

    Jormag is the only Spirit that has physical/corporeal presence in addition to the supposed spirt/incorporeal form.

    It's not like the Sons have gone up and touched him to make sure, and while there is the Tooth to consider, the Spirits have been known to take solid form.

    I say supposed because AFAIK there is no real proof that Jormag is actually a Spirit of the Wild. For all we know the Sons could just be deluded about that and projecting it onto Jormag.

    In fact, according to word of dev, that is exactly what's happened. Jormag doesn't exhibit any of the qualities that the norn expect from a Spirit of the Wild, but the Sons don't have access to some of that evidence and stubbornly reject the rest (or embrace it as another sign that Dragon is greater than the others).

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Oglaf.1074 said:
    If it is a spirit it is not physical, mate. They’re mutually exclusive: incorporeal and corporeal.

    So? It's still a singular entity. Yes, Jormag isn't actually a Spirit of the Wild. But that's not what's important here. What's important is that the Sons of Svanir believe him to be a Spirit of the Wild and that they treat Jormag as such.

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Jormag is the only Spirit that has physical/corporeal presence in addition to the supposed spirt/incorporeal form.

    The Sons of Svanir do not separate the two as you are, because they argue he is a Spirit of the Wild, and thus treat him no differently than a norn would treat Bear. Even if Bear is not physical due to being a spirit, Bear is still a singular entity that is not always around and can grant power to its faithful, just as Jormag is a singular entity that is not always around and can grant power to its faithful.

    You're not wrong, but you're failing to take in the perspective and false belief of the Sons of Svanir, proclaiming that their treatment of Jormag is innately different just because of the fact its not a Spirit of the Wild. The fact isn't important here, since it is the belief of the Sons of Svanir we're talking about.

    This entire argument is akin to me saying "the Flat Earthers believe that Earth is flat" with you constantly responding "but the Earth isn't flat so the Flat Earthers' belief is unique among similar beliefs because of the dual nature where the Earth is treated as flat but they know it is not."

    I am not saying that Jormag is a Spirit of the Wild. I am saying that the Sons of Svanir treat Jormag just like any other Spirit of the Wild. So that in their view, which is incorrect, Jormag is a representation of all dragons both Elder and not. This belief, as we have both stated time and time again, is objectively incorrect, but it is what the Sons of Svanir believe. And because of the Sons of Svanir beliefs, they will not act as if Jormag is not a Spirit of the Wild or is not the apex predator, which was my entire point from the beginning. Because they will not act as if Jormag is not a Spirit of the Wild or is not an apex predator, they will not go thinking that Primordus is Jormag's equal.

    If any does, then they have forsaken the standard Sons of Svanir belief and become a bit of an apostate, perhaps become outcasted by the Sons or create a splinter faction, dividing it just as Christianity has been divided time and time again.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.