And more Reason to not Like Kormir...

Was doing the GW1 quest The Time is Nigh and sifted through the reward dialog and saw this line,

Raidmarshall Mehdara:"We have ships and we have men; we have the will and the means. Nothing can stop Kormir once she puts her mind to it. She would fight Balthazar himself if she thought the cause to be right and virtuous. Something tells me she is looking for just that kind of altercation with Varesh. Take this, you'll need it."

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Time_is_Nigh#Reward_dialogue

Yeah most people who played GW1 hate her, myself included.

Meh, people seem to hate Kormir for the same silly "stole my spotlight" reason folks hate Trahearne. Though she didn't and it wouldn't make sense for the GW1 PC to become the next god of knowledge.

Regarding that line, keep in mind that Kormir is not the same person as who Mehdara knew. And I don't mean because she went through traumatic events like having her eyes eaten while she was was still alive, or suffering Abaddon's intrusion into her mind; I mean she's literally not the same person per the ending of Nightfall:

Party leader: "Kormir?"Kormir: "No. Yes. Kormir. And much more."Party leader: "Abaddon?"Kormir: "No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day."

Abaddon and Kormir merged into one, mixing and mashing the two's knowledge, personality, etc. into a new being.

That "new Kormir" wouldn't be the same as the "old Kormir" even ignoring what mortal Kormir had gone through between the OP quoted line and her "ascension/death". And the new Kormir knew that it would be better for mortals to fight even a fallen god, than for a god to do so (the whole point of her little speech about Abaddon's two throwdowns was to show that when mortals take on god-like beings, there are cataclysmic battles like when gods and god-like beings fight each other).

You mean legitimate reasons to hate Trahearne, Konig. :wink:

As for Kormir, it has been a long time since I dabbled with GW1. Was there equal focus on personal story in that one? If not, I don’t really blame the writers: if there was no personal “spotlight” to steal to begin with, then no harm, no foul.

Well Kormir got indeed often hated for the reason Konig mentioned.

Still there where a few People who simply did not like her for various reasons

and ofc there where those guys who would track down ur ip and kill u brutally with a spoon just to make sure u understand their message that kormir is awesome beyond reason

We cant understand the gods- there are just stupid in the lore- the whole plot is a huge hole.

Balthazar had no personality- a countless years entity just likes war- not even getting into his story... His myth created another myths etc etc etc.

PoF story was weak because of that- they just wrote for him a few words to just not get too much tired: There are no more words, mortals. Only death.

<.trying to get rid of this Lyssa stupid thing out of my head>

And also Kormir is just a proof of how badly this plot was created.

Braham could be a better villain with the potential to change into a better guy.

Season 3 was a parade of bad choices in terms of lore- so much potential wasted, hidden with some stupid attacks and Livia's weird plot.

Everything closed in a box with an ugly ribbon called Balthazar.

@Arden.7480 said:We cant understand the gods- there are just stupid in the lore- the whole plot is a huge hole.

Balthazar had no personality- a countless years entity just likes war- not even getting into his story... His myth created another myths etc etc etc.

PoF story was weak because of that- they just wrote for him a few words to just not get too much tired: There are no more words, mortals. Only death.

<.trying to get rid of this Lyssa stupid thing out of my head>

I actually liked Balthazar. Indeed he is “just war” because he is war incarnate: The god of war. Whatever he may have been prior to his Ascension would’ve been devoured by now and he has fully become his domain.

In a way, there’s a tragedy to godhood in GW like that.

He proved he isnt 'just it' with that he didnt curse Lyssa in the end- he also had some affection, that he wanted so badly to hide away.

I just hope this will be like Scarlet- we also didnt know her motives and the story fully until Season 2.

If they plan to do that, I will be very happy.

I really hope the Forgotten- maybe even one, last Forgotten will take a part in the future episodes and will shed some light to the Gods' plot.

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Arden.7480 said:We cant understand the gods- there are just stupid in the lore- the whole plot is a huge hole.

Balthazar had no personality- a countless years entity just likes war- not even getting into his story... His myth created another myths etc etc etc.

PoF story was weak because of that- they just wrote for him a few words to just not get too much tired: There are no more words, mortals. Only death.

<.trying to get rid of this Lyssa stupid thing out of my head>

The plot was literally Nightfall 2.0, in the same way that The Force Awakens was just A New Hope 2.0. It wasn't a good plot, and Balthazar's motivations were indeed one dimensional - but not only that, contradictive of what GW1 had established for years. He went from an honorable god of war with an anger issue to nothing but that anger issue.

Abaddon has greater motivations, and he doesn't say a single word.

@Arden.7480 said:I just hope this will be like Scarlet- we also didnt know her motives and the story fully until Season 2.

We kind of did by Edge of the Mists, really. Her Journal and the investigation showed it all.

Postmortem motivation is actually a very bad plot to go. Same with exposition of a villain's backstory. You want to expose this stuff before the final confrontation in the plot, otherwise it just feels like patchwork. And we've got so many villains now that have so little exposition, background, or motivations given to them until the last moment if ever. Balthazar is just one of many, and Joko recently joined the ranks.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Arden.7480 said:We cant understand the gods- there are just stupid in the lore- the whole plot is a huge hole.

Balthazar had no personality- a countless years entity just likes war- not even getting into his story... His myth created another myths etc etc etc.

PoF story was weak because of that- they just wrote for him a few words to just not get too much tired: There are no more words, mortals. Only death.

<.trying to get rid of this Lyssa stupid thing out of my head>

@Arden.7480 said:I just hope this will be like Scarlet- we also didnt know her motives and the story fully until Season 2.

As I said, what I liked was the sorta corruptive nature of godhood. When you ascend to become the God of War (or any God of X or Y) you’d probably lose yourself to it eventually where you, indeed, become quite one-dimensional.

Same thing with Kormir when we meet her. How much of Kormir is left and how much of it is the personification of the domain she possesses as a goddess?

@"Oglaf.1074" said:As I said, what I liked was the sorta corruptive nature of godhood. When you ascend to become the God of War (or any God of X or Y) you’d probably lose yourself to it eventually where you, indeed, become quite one-dimensional.

Same thing with Kormir when we meet her. How much of Kormir is left and how much of it is the personification of the domain she possesses as a goddess?

And as I said, Abaddon was not one-dimensional. Hell, in GW1, Balthazar was not presented as one-dimensional. Neither is any other god. Kormir is not one-dimensional either, as her journal shows us - and as the ending of Nightfall told us, it's less that "one loses themselves to the divinity and become one-dimensional" but rather "the old god and the new mortal merge completely". That being, it's a stacking effect, not a degradation.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Oglaf.1074" said:As I said, what I liked was the sorta corruptive nature of godhood. When you ascend to become the God of War (or any God of X or Y) you’d probably lose yourself to it eventually where you, indeed, become quite one-dimensional.

Same thing with Kormir when we meet her. How much of Kormir is left and how much of it is the personification of the domain she possesses as a goddess?

And as I said-said, I merely liked the concept. Not saying that it was necessarily what happened.

Just that if it was, I’d like it. Because then godhood would be sort of a Faustian deal rather than a straight “upgrade”.

to be clear, I liked kormir in GW1.I didn't like her so much in GW2 where she abandons us to Balthazar. So much for that Sunspear moto.

GW1 Kormir: "And remember my friend - you never fight alone."GW2 Me: kthnxbai

Never really knew people were upset about kormir "stealing" godhood until I saw someone post a vid about Kormir on the gw2 forums, in a thread about Treehguy stealing our thunder, "Nobody Likes You Kormir"

@Oglaf.1074 said:You mean legitimate reasons to hate Trahearne, Konig. :wink:I fail to see what the legitimacy of the reasons has to do with this. People hate Kormir, and they had Trahearne for similar reasons. Legit or not, the objections are the same.As for Kormir, it has been a long time since I dabbled with GW1. Was there equal focus on personal story in that one? If not, I don’t really blame the writers: if there was no personal “spotlight” to steal to begin with, then no harm, no foul.It's not quite the same. There was a main storyline, but you weren't quite the main focus to the same degree. Prophecies was a bit manic, with Ascalon and Shiverpeaks being the story of Rurik leading his people to Kryta, white Kryta onward dealing with the White Mantle and the mursaat. Factions focused a lot on Mhenlo and Master Togo. Nightfall used the Hero system to focus on them mainly as you aid Kormir as part of the Sunspears. In all of them, you are an adventurer, but just a citizen who wants to see right done not someone special. (At least, I don't think you become Sunspear general...)

@Rognik.2579 said:(At least, I don't think you become Sunspear general...)

I dunno. If you're native to Elona, they won't even let you progress the plot past a certain point unless you hit Sunspear General, and the title track certainly implies you become the next Spearmarshal...

But while the GW1 characters do tend to be singled out and special Chosen Ones- literally, in Prophecies' case- there's nothing personal about it. Your character barely counts as a character- the full extent of backstory we get is 'young and looking for a chance at glory' for Prophecies, 'just accepted into Shing Jea Monastery' for Factions, and 'promising young Sunspear officer' for Nightfall. And if you think the dialogue for the GW2 PC is bland and nondescript... the closest thing they have to a personality trait is leaning on the fourth wall with pop culture references while accepting/declining quests.

@"Justine.6351" said:to be clear, I liked kormir in GW1.I didn't like her so much in GW2 where she abandons us to Balthazar. So much for that Sunspear moto.

GW1 Kormir: "And remember my friend - you never fight alone."GW2 Me: kthnxbai

Well, again, it is all about the fact that she isn’t that Kormir anymore. She’s a goddess now, not a Sunspear. An actor on a newer and grander stage. It is a shame they didn’t write her to seem more conflicted about it, but then again that’s not really befitting a goddess, innit?

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

The plot was literally Nightfall 2.0, in the same way that The Force Awakens was just A New Hope 2.0. It wasn't a good plot, and Balthazar's motivations were indeed one dimensional - but not only that, contradictive of what GW1 had established for years. He went from an honorable god of war with an anger issue to nothing but that anger issue.

Well, he was "honorable" but he threw that away, he said so himself at flashpoint at the Heart of the Volcano, "I've learned there is no honor in war", that's no contradiction, he just changed after a probably 200 years of imprisonment without the other gods giving him an "honorably" chance to fight back and being chained in rags like a beggar and left completely alone for all that time, could anyone that call himself the mighty god of war remain honorable after that humillation?

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@"Justine.6351" said:to be clear, I liked kormir in GW1.I didn't like her so much in GW2 where she abandons us to Balthazar. So much for that Sunspear moto.

GW1 Kormir: "And remember my friend - you never fight alone."GW2 Me: kthnxbai

When she speaks that line she is a god...

@Pax.3548 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

The plot was literally Nightfall 2.0, in the same way that The Force Awakens was just A New Hope 2.0. It wasn't a good plot, and Balthazar's motivations were indeed one dimensional - but not only that,

contradictive of what GW1 had established for years

. He went from an honorable god of war with an anger issue to nothing but that anger issue.

Also consider that the knowledge we get about the gods is from their worshippers, hardly an unbiased source.

@"Oglaf.1074" said:Just that if it was, I’d like it. Because then godhood would be sort of a Faustian deal rather than a straight “upgrade”.

It still is, I believe. Even though the gods don't become one-dimensional representations of their domains, they lose their former personality, desires, and beliefs to serve a "grander" purpose they previously didn't even understand. It certainly isn't something I would ever choose for myself, not for any amount of new knowledge or power (which wouldn't be used by me or to achieve my goals, anyway). Personally, I find this outcome more complex than the first alternative and equally, if not more, terrifying.

You're right. It's way better for Kormir and the other gods to throw away logic and rationale and destroy the entire world just to eliminate a threat to some of it.Oh wait... maybe the whole point is that that ISN'T what the gods should do, and that Balthazar is wrong for doing it.

"There can be no victory in a War among the gods"layered meanings, eh?

@Oglaf.1074 said:Well, again, it is all about the fact that she isn’t that Kormir anymore. She’s a goddess now, not a Sunspear. An actor on a newer and grander stage. It is a shame they didn’t write her to seem more conflicted about it, but then again that’s not really befitting a goddess, innit?

I disagree, she is conflicted. There are hints of that in the voice acting. (...at least the English VA, I haven't heard other languages.) It was a little too subtle, but there is a sense of quiet anguish behind her words; the frustration that her power has ironically left her powerless. She doesn't want to leave, she HAS to leave. The Commander and Kasmeer pleading with her without understanding that clearly frustrates her further, so much that she raises her voice to them, like a mother admonishing her children for begging her not to go to work.

They could've dived deeper into that, they could've made it more blatant and overblown with no semblance of subtlety... but as Oglaf said, that's not really befitting a goddess, innit?

Yeah, I just wonder how insecure some people have to be to feel like Kormir "stole" the spotlight in GW1 when the PC was, based on the writing, little more than a cardboard cut out. Without those crucial NPCs, not much could have happened plot-wise. I can understand people not liking Trahearne for various reasons, but I never felt like he was detracting from my character's role either.

And sometimes it's okay not to be the center of every aspect of the game? There are a lot of singleplayer RPGs that can and do fulfill that power fantasy well.

Sure you could RP and use your imagination to invest your PC in the story more, but in the end the PC was not a written character with wants/needs/goals. It was just your avatar into the world.

I liked Kormir a lot. I was really excited to see her again in PoF, but also disappointed she and the other gods abandoned us.

Ill just leave this here.

@Hashar.6082 said:

@"Oglaf.1074" said:Just that if it was, I’d like it. Because then godhood would be sort of a Faustian deal rather than a straight “upgrade”.

Which is actually an interesting philosophical question... Would you accept godhood if you knew that it would completely change your being

I probably would take that trade. I don't expect to be the same person in ten years' time than I am now, and the opportunity to learn more about the universe than a mortal is likely to learn in their lifetime (and may not even be able to comprehend) would be worth it.

But that, in itself, might be part of the "why Kormir?" question. We have a lot to indicate that Kormir was someone who valued knowledge before Nightfall even started, and it's possible that part of the requirement for being a suitable candidate to godhood is that you already embody that principle such that you wouldn't resist being made to embody it further. Kormir might be saddened at what she gave up to become a god, but at the end of the line, for her, the trade was worth it (even before you consider the consequences of her not jumping in), and that's what made her a suitable candidate.

Lol this made me miss gw1