Weaver and Tempest don't have to be limited to just DPS or Support

A lot of posts lately focus on how Tempest should be turned into a full support spec because its dps isn't currently meta. While making the elite specs fit a specific role is quite common for other professions, I feel that for elementalist, that would be a missed opportunity.

The elementalist't elite specs are designed quite brilliantly to have vastly different gameplay styles.This by itself is enough to set them apart from eachother. They don't need to be pigeonholed into a single, predefined role. A s/d weaver's gameplay is fundamentally different from that of a d/w Tempest (even with the same weapon they differ greatly).

Instead of having roughly similar traits (like Blasting Zone and Glass Cannon), where one is being ignored because the other is numerically superior, the choice of traits could define whether your elite spec would focus on one role, or the other. Harmonious Conduit and Invigorating Torrents are an example of how this could work.

Not every elite spec needs to be able to do everything (and certainly not at the same time of course!) but there is room for variation in roles. For Tempest, there's already this notion that it can be either dps or support, depending on the traits. Weaver has a similar setup, except the choice is between power or condi damage. A third elite spec could be a choice between condi damage and support, and so forth.

Balancing those specs is relatively straightforward because they are mutually exclusive. For Tempest to reach Weaver dps for example, they shouldn't also add their support. An example of how to achieve this could be to move the boons from the overloads to a trait, which would then be mutually exclusive with a dps enhancing trait. There's room for making them work in multiple roles. Bottom line is that some people prefer the Tempest's attunement style and some that of the Weaver. It feels like it should be possible to have both variations perfom the same role at the same level.

tl;dr The elementalist's elite specs are so well designed that their gameplay styles themselves set them apart well enough. They don't need to be limited to exclusive roles to make them worth playing.

EDIT: for clarity: I'm not saying things are this way right now, I was merely attempting a discussion on how they could be implemented. Sorry for the confusion.

It's simple really, if Woven Stride and/or Invigorating Strike were buffed to additionally affect allies, Weaver support could actually be a viable option.If Harmonious conduit received a longer duration instead of a mere 4 seconds and there was actually a good grandmaster trait apart from Elemental Bastion, Tempest wouldn't be so pigeonholed into being support.

Elite specs already have their theme: tempest is "support" and weaver is dueler (according to their traits, weapons and partially the new elite mechanic).

Tempest did do high damage, but that's because fire and air are offensive elements, so offense makes sense. However, Anet made a big mistake for not making those two elements give offensive support, rather than pure damage.

Weaver can be dueler with high damage, high mobility or high self defense. Its traits are more defined and have different roles.

Tempest traits are a hot (no pun intended) mess of random support mechanics. It shouldn't have a single selfish trait in its kit unless it's some bonus with warhorn (but even that can be reworked into skill cooldown reduction, which also benefits allies). Basically tempest needs more defined identity and more separate roles/ways of achieving its goal.

I'll make a long post later (hopefully today) in ele concern thread which will include some fine tuning of tempest traits (overload ideas can be found on page 2 of that thread).

Tempest by far is a support class its just the support on it is mostly healing the boon side of its support is lacking as well as aura support over all. Weaver is NOT a dmg spec. it is a cele spec. it just happens part of being a cele spec. give it dmg +. Fire and air are true dmg lines weaver more on the lines of an much stronger acrican line.

Both of them are a bit more power creep tankly side then core ele so i guess you could make them tank set up. (As there only realty 3 main effects in the game dps support and tank cc falls into support for most ppl.)

Right. A specialization that has damage modifiers in all 3 tiers of traits is not a damage spec. I wonder what a damage spec looks like, then?

I don't think the e-specs are aimed at that. Thats just the way they are used in some game-modes based on the best synergy with traits, weapons and skills for that mode and playstyle.

Tempest is about staying longer in attunements to unlock powerfull AoE effects (overloads).Weaver is about swapping attunements fast and constantly and combining them for extra skills (dual skills).

Tempest with its AoEs also have lots of shared effects to group, that is why is seen more as a support spec, while weaver is more selfish in its effects making it a good dps spec (if the dps traits are taken) or dueling spec (if mobility/defense traits are taken).

@"Feanor.2358" said:Right. A specialization that has damage modifiers in all 3 tiers of traits is not a damage spec. I wonder what a damage spec looks like, then?

One of the weavers lines is about increasing dmg when you swap around attunements (weavers prowess for condi dmg and elements of rage for power dmg). The rest is based on defense or mobility, making the espec great for dueling/roaming (great as in "the best roaming spec ele got atm", not great compared to what other classes have).

@lLobo.7960 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:Right. A specialization that has damage modifiers in all 3 tiers of traits is not a damage spec. I wonder what a damage spec looks like, then?

The only traits I run in Weaver are 1-2-1. Both in PvE and WvW. Crit chance (which is damage buff), conditional damage buff (on a condition that is trivial to meet), and guess what, a damage buff. On a condi build I'd run 1-1-1, which is still 3 damage buffs. Mobility? Defence? Dps loss.

Sure, the specialization allows you to spec a dueller/roamer. But it also allows you to go full yolo damage. Therefore, it is at least as much a damage specialization as it is a duelling one.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@lLobo.7960 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Right. A specialization that has damage modifiers in all 3 tiers of traits is not a damage spec. I wonder what a damage spec looks like, then?

But that is not an issue with the espec itself. Its an issue with the content. You are focusing on using the bonuses the elite spec gives to reward fast attune swap to improve dmg and leave the defense to your team-mates.The fact that you are going full yolo on weaver does not make it a yolo espec, just as much as the fact that you are using staff does not make it a staff spec...

The dueling and mobility traits are heavily used in pvp, where you cant always depend on teamates to protect you

@lLobo.7960 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@lLobo.7960 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Right. A specialization that has damage modifiers in all 3 tiers of traits is not a damage spec. I wonder what a damage spec looks like, then?

And the yolo traits are extensively used in both PvE and WvW. The spec itself isn't only damage or only dueling. It can be both. And just because you happen to use one of these aspects doesn't make the spec only that. Claiming Weaver isn't a damage spec is ridiculous.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@lLobo.7960 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@lLobo.7960 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Right. A specialization that has damage modifiers in all 3 tiers of traits is not a damage spec. I wonder what a damage spec looks like, then?

Ok, there is a difference between being a damage spec, or being used in a dmg spec.I think weaver is a spec that rewards quick attunement swap and mixing attunements. The rewards come in the shape of greater mobility, damage or defense (with barrier).The fact that pve and WvW zerg does not require you to take defensive traits does not make the elite spec a pure damage spec.If you take water/earth/weaver you won't be much of a damage spec.The fact that the pvp builds for weaver take the mobility and defense traits does not make weaver a defense spec.

@lLobo.7960 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@lLobo.7960 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@lLobo.7960 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Right. A specialization that has damage modifiers in all 3 tiers of traits is not a damage spec. I wonder what a damage spec looks like, then?

Following this logic, damage specs do not exist. Every traitline, on any class, offers alternatives to its damage traits granting defence or some sort of utility.And by the way I never said it's a pure damage spec. I merely objected to someone claiming it isn't one. Yes, it is. On the grounds of being able to be specced in full damage. Claiming otherwise is simply false. Denying its defensive capabilities is wrong, denying its offensive capabilities is at least equally wrong. "At least" because weaver is probably the best offensive line in the class.

My apologies for the confusion in the original post. I'm not saying things are this way right now, I was merely attempting a discussion on how they could be implemented. Some elite specs focus on a specific aspect of gameplay (like Ranger Druid and Soulbeast for example) but because the elementalist's elite specs differ so much in actual gameplay, I though it could be a good opportunity to design them a little differently. Because they are both elite specs, they could exist side by side as both damage or support specs, with roughly equal performance. Allowing the players choose between playstyles, rather than team role.

Honnestly, in the case of the weaver they should have never put the "damages" on the traitlines but instead on the dual attunment skills. That way there wouldn't have been a clear powercreep issue, core wouldn't have been nerfed to the ground to reduce the impact of this powercreep and tempest could have even stayed a competitive dps option.

And, who know, maybe by putting the power focus on dual attunment skills the weaver wouldn't have been stuck using the same dps skills that he tend to use since launch with every PvE competitive build: meteor shower, glyph of elemental tempest and so on. As for PvP, with more power onto the dual attuned skills, the players would probably be able to make a better of a traitline focused more on utility and survivability.

I think element of rage (and all the powercreep it create) need to begone, clearly ANet try to hard to make elementalist's players take some gear with vitality. Dual attunment skills generally need both a cool down shave and a shorter cast time, some even need sheer buff (Scepter's stone tide for example need it's base conditions duration to be doubled else there is no real point to use it).

As for tempest, I agree with the op, there was no reason to hurt him and downgrade it to an inferior "support" spec. It used to be a strong pve dps and was fine as is since auras don't have that much of an impact in this gamemode. Nowaday, to give him value as a support would imply to make auras a lot more impactful in the game and I think that the proper way to do that would be to make some other profession's traits (or even runes/sigil bonus) dependant on having auras on them which would make a support elementalist an usefull convenience but not necessarily a must have support.

@Dadnir.5038 said:And, who know, maybe by putting the power focus on dual attunment skills the weaver wouldn't have been stuck using the same dps skills that he tend to use since launch with every PvE competitive build: meteor shower, glyph of elemental tempest and so on.

That's pretty easy to figure out. Dual skills have longer cooldowns than weaver's attunement swap, and you want to give incentive for frequent attunement change anyway. So you're looking at 1 dual skill per change, at best. Meaning you'll still have something like 2-3 seconds in every particular attunement combo to fill. Meaning either use autos (which would be terrible for an ele), or use efficient dps skills. So no, we'd still be using the same dps skills we tend to use since launch, even if the dual skills did 100k dps on their own.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:And, who know, maybe by putting the power focus on dual attunment skills the weaver wouldn't have been stuck using the same dps skills that he tend to use since launch with every PvE competitive build: meteor shower, glyph of elemental tempest and so on.

That's why I say that in order to do so, the dual attunment skills need faster cast time and shorter cool down. This in itself make them better for PvP while it open at the same time it open a path for the weaver to favor different kind of weaponset in PvE for small target. Ultimately, what's desirable for the PvE elementalist is that staff become mediocre for small target and strong on large targets while having at least one strong different weaponset option for small target.

And I suggest to bring up those weaponset thanks to dual attunment skills. If it mean that elementalist would be stuck using auto attack to benefit from those strong skills, so be it. No, in fact it would make rotations easier which would increase weaver survivability which is desirable instead of being "terrible". The elementalist need the leisure to catch his breath and be able to see what's coming at him, that's what auto attacking is for. The dps rotations of the elementalist aren't complicated, they just don't leave him with any room to answer the unexpected and long cast time (say hello to meteor shower) are the first responsible for that. Making dps elementalists willingly part from the staff would drastically improve their survivability.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:And, who know, maybe by putting the power focus on dual attunment skills the weaver wouldn't have been stuck using the same dps skills that he tend to use since launch with every PvE competitive build: meteor shower, glyph of elemental tempest and so on.

Nah. Ultimately, you'll always use the same weaponset in PvE. The reason being, the average target is small. On top of that, the changes to the multihit skills actually are in the exact opposite direction, making the target size matter even less. So if staff ends up with mediocre damage, nobody will touch it again. Everyone will just move to the next best weapon, just like we did back when Sc/W Tempest was on the top.

Sorry to burst your overload bubble, but when we were watching the stream of them showcasing tempest the devs or whoever was playing the tempest on stream specifically said they were "A front line support class" . The issue with tempest class is that they are clearly out performed by other support classes especially the guardian, who can tank, heal, and deal damage. Which in my book was what an elementalists should be doing in the first place. As far as weavers are concerned why bring a weaver, who's learning curve is quite hard to learn, with unstable dps depending on the skill capacity of your team members to keep you alive because you are like squishy af, when you can bring a class that can out damage, give support while damaging, bring cc for break-bars, and can relatively keep themselves alive longer then that of a weaver?

@Feanor.2358 said:Right. A specialization that has damage modifiers in all 3 tiers of traits is not a damage spec. I wonder what a damage spec looks like, then?

That kind of how all the specialization are they have 1 def 1 attk or dmg mod and one support / utitly.

Ele true dmg line is fire and air if you could have 2 fires that some how stacked or 2 airs lines on an ele build it would out dmg any thing a weaver air / fire build could do.Think of weaver more like an arcain line but a lot stronger (arcain line seen better days.)

The thing about the Dev. playing tempest is if he was not a dev. he would never get into groups to play as a melee support tempest its just simple death ending up needing to be supported to play as an tankly support witch is the most worthless thing for a class like tempest is doing.

Weaver is about to take a major hit with the rev update on its way i think. The dmg will all be the same but it looks like rev will be able to switch up its non dmg side and give more support effects that any ele or weaver would give when it swaps to earth / water mixed atumnets for more supported / cc rolls. Its already realty bad with fury blasting / aura taking so much work to be group support vs revs perma fury swiftness might up time the power creep was real and maybe a great deal more if we start to see though power revs get a viable group stab.

1. Fire can be used for defence/utility as well. Like 3-2-3.
2. Air isn't even used in dps builds any more. That should tell you enough how good it is.
3. You'd still take weaver over second Fire. Even not counting the lowered attunement swap and the dual attacks, you just get more raw damage out of it.

I agree that overall weaver is pointless already. If Herald ends up with similar damage, it will be just yet another build who does that way more reliably while having way better utility.

Tempest ded. Weaver high skill cap, low-moderate reward.Good one anet