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In light of recent changes; What do you think?


Vornollo.5182

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I messed up on the last post, so here's a (hopefully better) second attempt! (would be great if that post could be Deleted)

Out of curiosity, I'm wondering about how people feel about two changes in specific.In the July 10th Update, Blinding Powder and Exposed Weakness have received some changes. Depending on your gamemode and playstyle, these changes may be considered either a Buff, or a Nerf.

What I'm curious about and what I hope to find out with this thread, is how most Thief Players think about these changes and whether you consider them a Buff or a Nerf.


For clarity, the patchnotes and links to the respective wiki pages:
  • Exposed Weakness: The damage this trait causes has been changed from 10% damage if the target has a condition to 2% damage per unique condition on a target.
  • Blinding Powder: Updated the tooltip of this skill to better clarify its area of effect. This skill now has a 0.25-second casting time but is now also a stun breaker.


In the spoiler's my own take on the changes.

!Coming mainly from a sPvP and WvW point of view (+1's, Focus Party, Backline and semi-Frontline) For 'Exposed Weakness' I haven't personally noticed too much of a difference. In most of the scenarios I run this trait there's already plenty of other players who have loaded my targets up with Conditions anyway. Even when running Solo (both in PvP and WvW) it's just really easy to keep up 3 Conditions at the very least. Ofcourse, it fluctuates, but the difference in damage for sPvP and WvW isn't really too noticeable. In my limited PvE expierence however, I've noticed that the new version of 'Exposed Weakness' is a major offensive modfier, but really only stands out when it's combined with Deadeye's 'Premeditation' trait. So overall, I'd say that the rework is fine... Sure I do miss my ~4% damage, but I can't say anything has changed too much, but it's a decent enough little shave for me, which as a result has pushed our Profession to a pretty solid meta spot in a different gamemode. So I'm pretty happy about that and I do consider it a Buff, when it comes down it. For 'Blinding Powder' however... I've been playing with it in a couple of different builds, tried to use it in different ways. And really, I've been enjoying the Stun Break effect! The 1 second of cover Stability is a nice little touch considering the 0.25 second cast time. Especially for D/P builds, having more Stunbreaks is quite amazing, it's already saved me a couple of times from Holosmiths when I got myself in a stupid situation. That last bit though... The 0.25 second cast time is bumming me out more and more, every time I play with it. I just really miss all the clever little skillful plays that one could make with it when it was an instant-cast. I also feel like the pre-patch version also functioned well enough as a "semi stunbreak" with it's Blind and Stealth. So while the Stunbreak is great, I'd gladly see this reverted. Because what it comes down to for me, is that with this cast time and thereby the removal of certain skillful plays (quick backstabs, clutch blinds/stealths on rezzes/stomps and so on and so forth), is that it feels like a dumbing down of the game. And that's a real shame. One of the major selling points for Guild Wars 2, is its combat... Taking away from that, it's just a pity. So I'd call the 'Blinding Powder' changes a Nerf, despite liking the stunbreak. I preferred the additional "intricacies" of the pre-patch version.


Share your thoughts, ideas and discussions. Would be nice if you could mention your perspective (PvE, (s)PvP, WvW, all of it etc...) so we all know where we're coming from.Hopefully we can get some mature discussion(s) going.
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They're really too context-dependent to give an answer here.

BP is a huge buff into holosmith for example since it's an extra stunbreak, while it's a huge nerf as far as D/P 5 -> 2 + blast goes.EW is a huge buff in PvE but a huge loss into solo-kill attempts for builds running DA, and it situationally either terrible or amazing for +1's depending on the fight/allies/builds and who you're attacking and when.

I dislike the EW change but am pretty indifferent to BP. Though personally, I'd just prefer they nerf the amount of CC access on a number of builds that are what justify it being made into a stunbreak to begin with, and see it reverted, as I think more builds can benefit more from less spammable CC; BP being a stunbreak is a band-aid fix.

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@"Alatar.7364" said:I am going to be THAT guy and ask: Doesn't "Only Exposed Weakness got Buffed" basicly rule out that Blinding Powder could be buff too so the Second option "Only Blinding powder got nerfed" basically means the same as the first one mentioned?

Buffing EW doesn't necessarily mean BP got nerfed, BP could simply be no change. Thus nerfing BP doesn't necessarily mean EW got buffed, again EW could simply be no change.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Alatar.7364" said:I am going to be THAT guy and ask: Doesn't
"Only Exposed Weakness got Buffed"
basicly rule out that Blinding Powder could be buff too so the Second option
"Only Blinding powder got nerfed"
basically means the same as the first one mentioned?

Buffing EW doesn't necessarily mean BP got nerfed, BP could simply be no change. Thus nerfing BP doesn't necessarily mean EW got buffed, again EW could simply be no change.

Can I just completely reedit my comment and switch it for "I think BP was nerf (in PvP perspective)" ? =D

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@Alatar.7364 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:I am going to be THAT guy and ask: Doesn't
"Only Exposed Weakness got Buffed"
basicly rule out that Blinding Powder could be buff too so the Second option
"Only Blinding powder got nerfed"
basically means the same as the first one mentioned?

Buffing EW doesn't necessarily mean BP got nerfed, BP could simply be no change. Thus nerfing BP doesn't necessarily mean EW got buffed, again EW could simply be no change.

Can I just completely reedit my comment and switch it for
"I think BP was nerf (in PvP perspective)"
? =D

That's what this poll is asking.

"Depending on your gamemode and playstyle, these changes may be considered either a Buff, or a Nerf...how most Thief Players think about these changes and whether you consider them a Buff or a Nerf"

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:I am going to be THAT guy and ask: Doesn't
"Only Exposed Weakness got Buffed"
basicly rule out that Blinding Powder could be buff too so the Second option
"Only Blinding powder got nerfed"
basically means the same as the first one mentioned?

Buffing EW doesn't necessarily mean BP got nerfed, BP could simply be no change. Thus nerfing BP doesn't necessarily mean EW got buffed, again EW could simply be no change.

Can I just completely reedit my comment and switch it for
"I think BP was nerf (in PvP perspective)"
? =D

That's what this poll is asking.

"Depending on your gamemode and playstyle, these changes may be considered either a Buff, or a Nerf...how most Thief Players think about these changes and whether you consider them a Buff or a Nerf"

I know, that was just ment to try and hide my flawed post under the carpet =D

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@Alatar.7364 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:I am going to be THAT guy and ask: Doesn't
"Only Exposed Weakness got Buffed"
basicly rule out that Blinding Powder could be buff too so the Second option
"Only Blinding powder got nerfed"
basically means the same as the first one mentioned?

Buffing EW doesn't necessarily mean BP got nerfed, BP could simply be no change. Thus nerfing BP doesn't necessarily mean EW got buffed, again EW could simply be no change.

Can I just completely reedit my comment and switch it for
"I think BP was nerf (in PvP perspective)"
? =D

That's what this poll is asking.

"Depending on your gamemode and playstyle, these changes may be considered either a Buff, or a Nerf...how most Thief Players think about these changes and whether you consider them a Buff or a Nerf"

I know, that was just ment to try and hide my flawed post under the carpet =D

Well, the poll is flawed too because there is no choice if you believe that "EW got buffed but BP got nerfed" or vice versa. I guess that falls in the "Other" option.

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On my side, the BP was a buff.I rarely used BP to cancel attacks on timing. Not being able to blind + stealth in the middle of a finisher sucks but it can be easily circumvented. Plus I prefer to cleave instead of finishing most of the time, so I didn't miss much

(this partly reason because, while playing with 200 ms ping, I simply don't trust that the blind will activate on time to cancel the enemy skill)

Exposed weakness is something that I grew to love.PvP wise was bad. But PvE wise the damage boost is simple to great to pass.

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My poll is indeed flawed. I would've posted more options, or preferably had an option where people could select multiple answers... But wahey, got to make do with what we've got. I think this was the best way of going about it without adding too much clutter.Interesting to see the results so far though!General consensus seems to be that most people have taken very well into the reaction-based gameplay and quick decisionmaking regardless of how these two things have been changed.

Got to say, I'm mostly of a mind with @DeceiverX.8361 here.

I'd just prefer they nerf the amount of CC access on a number of builds that are what justify it being made into a stunbreak to begin with, and see it revertedI think that excellently encapsulates a major part of the ongoing and increasing "problem" that we've seen since the introduction of Elite Specializations.Core Thief was actually able to stand up rather quite well throughout the recent years though, so it's a real bummer to see these 'band aid fixes'.

@"Alatar.7364" said:I am going to be THAT guy and ask: Doesn't "Only Exposed Weakness got Buffed" basicly rule out that Blinding Powder could be buff too so the Second option "Only Blinding powder got nerfed" basically means the same as the first one mentioned?Like Sir Vincent mentioned, it's simply when you're indifferent about the other option, hehe.Could've posed about 15 variations to answer the question(s) though and then I wouldn't even be going into detail at all... Went this way so it's at least somewhat easy to read. My bad!But to what you said:Can I just completely reedit my comment and switch it for "I think BP was nerf (in PvP perspective)" ? =DHow so? Is it also because you miss the extra few plays that you could make with it, compared to "just another stunbreak" (which is really not the only way to use this new BP, but it's the essence of it I've been feeling like).Curious to hear more!

@SoulSin.5682 said:On my side, the BP was a buff.I rarely used BP to cancel attacks on timing. Not being able to blind + stealth in the middle of a finisher sucks but it can be easily circumvented. Plus I prefer to cleave instead of finishing most of the time, so I didn't miss much

(this partly reason because, while playing with 200 ms ping, I simply don't trust that the blind will activate on time to cancel the enemy skill)

Exposed weakness is something that I grew to love.PvP wise was bad. But PvE wise the damage boost is simple to great to pass.Hmm, yeah ping comes into play very heavy for Thieves. But then again... Is the stunbreaker more reliable than the blind with that?I personally don't get over 70 ping on a bad day, so I can't really place myself into your shoes in that regard. It just seems weird that one would feel more reliable than the other? Just seems interesting, could you elaborate a bit?

@"babazhook.6805" said:Almost exlusively WvW with some PVE I see both as buffs in my own builds with my playstyle. BP in particular can help save an entire utility slot as it does so many things now any one of which (blind/blast/stealth/stunbreak) can be useful at a different time.Very, very true! Good to put my feet back on the ground for a bit and realize how "overloaded" BP really is right now...Still, I do feel just a tad salty about it considering the Mesmers' "Decoy" and "Signet of Midnight". Though to be fair, they don't get the Blast Finisher, which is also very nice indeed. Thanks for renewing some perspective, hehe.

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@Vornollo.5182 said:

@"Alatar.7364" said:Can I just completely reedit my comment and switch it for "I think BP was nerf (in PvP perspective)" ? =DHow so? Is it also because you miss the extra few plays that you could make with it, compared to "just another stunbreak" (
which is really not the only way to use this new BP, but it's the essence of it I've been feeling like
).Curious to hear more!

I'll just speak regarding sPvP;In sPvP, BP saw most of its use (but not only!) with D/P. D/P needs to be "comboing" all day long. The addition of the cast time took away that. Thief needs to be doing everything on the move, no more BP in to Black Powder while moving now, sometimes even less stealth when stacking for team. Thanks to cast there is also no more Safestomping, no more saferezzing, no more "surprise" backstab, no more blinding incoming essential attack.In my opinion, all that was more valuable than having it as a stunbreak.

Regarding PvE;I don't actually know, I never had any use for BP in PvE except long time ago in Old Dungeons.I think in PvE it's more of a buff.

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@Alatar.7364 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:Can I just completely reedit my comment and switch it for "I think BP was nerf (in PvP perspective)" ? =DHow so? Is it also because you miss the extra few plays that you could make with it, compared to "just another stunbreak" (
which is really not the only way to use this new BP, but it's the essence of it I've been feeling like
).Curious to hear more!

I'll just speak regarding sPvP;In sPvP, BP saw most of its use (
but not only!
) with D/P. D/P needs to be "comboing" all day long. The addition of the cast time took away that. Thief needs to be doing everything on the move, no more BP in to Black Powder while moving now, sometimes even less stealth when stacking for team. Thanks to cast there is also no more Safestomping, no more saferezzing, no more "surprise" backstab, no more blinding incoming essential attack.In my opinion, all that was more valuable than having it as a stunbreak.

Regarding PvE;I don't actually know, I never had any use for BP in PvE except long time ago in Old Dungeons.I
think
in PvE it's more of a buff.

Cool, so we do feel the same about it! Thought I already saw you eluding to that before :)

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@Vornollo.5182 said:

@"SoulSin.5682" said:On my side, the BP was a buff.I rarely used BP to cancel attacks on timing. Not being able to blind + stealth in the middle of a finisher sucks but it can be easily circumvented. Plus I prefer to cleave instead of finishing most of the time, so I didn't miss much

(this partly reason because, while playing with 200 ms ping, I simply don't trust that the blind will activate on time to cancel the enemy skill)

Exposed weakness is something that I grew to love.PvP wise was bad. But PvE wise the damage boost is simple to great to pass.Hmm, yeah ping comes into play very heavy for Thieves. But then again... Is the stunbreaker more reliable than the blind with that?I personally don't get over 70 ping on a bad day, so I can't really place myself into your shoes in that regard. It just seems weird that one would feel more reliable than the other? Just seems interesting, could you elaborate a bit?

This game has an awesome netcode when compared to most MMos. So it still feels pretty comfortable to play even on 200ms ping.That said, on stuff that requires quick reactions like using, say, old BP to evade an Warrior Eviscerate, you not only must recognize the skill but must dodge/use skills 0,3 seconds early. It's..... possible...... but I prefer to not bet my life on it.

The skill is not "more reliable". It's just "More useful".Now I have a second stun breaker on bar, with stealth access and stability, and the only thing I lost is the instant part of the skill that I never actually made use of.For someone that uses BP mostly to blast Black Powder or for pressure relief, the current utility skills works the same as the old one.

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At first i thought BP was a kick in the nuts but after a while i got use to it. The stun break is pretty good vs stealth burst classes and since I play s/d I don't have to worry about combo this mid way in black powerder.

Also exposed weakness is a buff for me as in wvw there is always someone with at least 5+ condis to gank;)

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@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:At first i thought BP was a kick in the nuts but after a while i got use to it. The stun break is pretty good vs stealth burst classes and since I play s/d I don't have to worry about combo this mid way in black powerder.

Yeah, I did get used to it too. Cancelled it plenty of times because I performed other actions too quickly, but that forced me to pick up on it that much more quicker...The Stunbreak is indeed a very, very welcome aspect for many of the builds we play and adds a ton to our "point blank" sustain. Still can't shake the feeling of missing out on some potential skill-based plays though, but I reckon that's mostly a D/X based thing more than our other sets/builds.Also exposed weakness is a buff for me as in wvw there is always someone with at least 5+ condis to gank;)Hah, very true. I've never really done too much ganking myself (preferring 1v1 and 1vX. Though using my little rat with a rifle is quite fun to gank on... Something about playing that just makes you feel like you have to gank), but yeah... Whenever you try to gank you will most often have plenty of condi's on your target, or add enough to what's already present on them to make up the difference anyway!

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Exposed Weakness: If you play solo roaming power thief is impossible to reach 5 unique condition (and keep them). So basically this change nerfs D/P and S/D power build in WvW (what's new? all recent Patch Notes go in this direction).

To be a buff this trait should be split between game modes: old version in WvW (10% damage if target has a condition) and new version in PvE and PvP (damage increase by 2% per Unique Condition).In WvW thieves need buff to help them play 1vs1.. not to gank.

Blinding Powder: I don't like the idea of cast time: this skill must be immediate (the cast time ruined combo with shadowstep and others skill) . If I want a break stun I use "Roll for Initiative", "Bandit's Defense" or "Shadowstep". Now I use Blinding Powder very rarely..

So I voted "Both Nerfs" but this depends where and how you play your thief.. as I said split EW between game modes will help things ^^

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@"SehferViega.8725" said:So I voted "Both Nerfs" but this depends where and how you play your thief.. as I said split EW between game modes will help things ^^

Splitting would do much for EW, yeah. Especially as this (as you also pointed out) only further cements Thief as a "generally despised" ganker, rather than a duelist.Strange how they force such a selfish profession to rely so much on others... Feels so counterintuitive.

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