Kits Should Be a Class Mechanic — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Kits Should Be a Class Mechanic

Zex Anthon.8673Zex Anthon.8673 Member ✭✭✭
edited September 7, 2018 in Engineer

I made a post suggesting this before, but it was too long and wasn't the clearest of post. So here is the short version.

We have been seeing a few reworks lately for other professions and I was thinking about how engineer could be reworked to make it more interesting. The engineer profession mechanic is the tool belt, but I feel that tool belt skills are rather lackluster for a profession mechanic. They are basically weaker versions of their utilities, and don't really offer a core mechanic that skills and specializations can interact with in any interesting way. All other professions have core mechanics that are deeply ingrained in the way the class functions. Just look at scrapper and holo, and compare how much they interact with the core mechanic vs most other elite specializations. Kits are what set engineers apart from the other professions and would make a much better core profession mechanic.

Kits would make a better core mechanic by providing a foundation for structuring builds. Also, the devs obviously had kits in mind when designing the engineer if you look at the lack of core weapon sets and weapon swap capability. Making kits an official profession mechanic would give elite specializations a mechanic to build upon. Take holosmith as an example. Photon forge is basically another kit, and the specialization functions really well. Some people don't like holosmith as a engineer specialization, but that is mainly due to the faceroll nature of the "kit" and not the mechanic itself. Personally, I feel that having access to the tools of photon forge without needing to sacrifice utility slots works really well.

As for how to implement the class mechanic, I have a few ideas. The kit slot could take up F5 just like photon forge, and elite toolbelt skills can be removed or integrated with the core utility. Or, the kit slot could utilize the weapon swap button, and you can keep all toolbelt skills. If you don't like the idea of single kit builds, then maybe swapping out more toolbelt slots can be an option. In my opinion, kits would function much better if they were optimized for single use rather than multi use. A single dedicated kit slot would allow kits to be buffed so they are on par with weapon sets without worrying about making them overpowered in multi-kit builds.

Granted, this would create a void in engineers utility skills. However, maybe this would be a good opportunity to provide engineer with the tools that it is missing. Here is more detail on my thoughts for utility skill and specialization changes

What do you guys think? What new kits would you like to see? What would a scrapper kit look like? What utility skills would you use to replace kits?

EDIT: Sticking this here so my current suggestion is more visible.

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:
After some more thought I will have to agree that multi-kit swapping is rather important to the kit mechanic. Even on holosmith I find it useful and fun to swap between photon forge, a weapon set, and a kit. That being said, I notice most builds on metabattle run no more than 2 kits with the exception of raids and fractals. That is mainly because those raid and fractal builds cycle through each kit to take advantage of a few high dps skills. In my opinion fixing the number of kits would allow for some much needed buffs and will make more kit skills relevant in all game modes.

I would suggest removing/integrating the healing toolbelt skills and have f4 and f5 keys bound to selectable kits. This way the three utility slot toolbelt skills are preserved, and every build can have two kits for a wide range of tools. Builds could run any combination of offensive or defensive kits. Elite specializations could reserve f5 for their specialization specific kit.

Forcing the elite specs to use their unique kit would create more diversity between the core class and the elite specializations. Thus, builds that use two core kits would be unique to the core class.

Comments

  • nope. Kits are fine as they are. Maybe trait and number tweaks but Scrapper needs the attention more mechanically.

    Sparkr's Wonderful World of Engineering - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEONFRaJV2u2f12ytXEir9A

  • Hoodie.1045Hoodie.1045 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:
    What do you guys think? What new kits would you like to see? What would a scrapper kit look like? What utility skills would you use to replace kits?

    There's no point in adding new kits. The ones we currently have serve their purpose, grenade and bomb kit for damage and zone control, elixir gun for condition cleanse and team support, tool kit for CC and damage mitigation etc. All there is to do is to improve some of the kit skills to be more impactful, like reducing the cast time and increasing the cripple duration on Box of Nails, increasing the bleed damage on Tranquilizer Dart, increasing the poison duration on Fumigate etc.

    @Peutrifectus.4830 said:
    nope. Kits are fine as they are. Maybe trait and number tweaks but Scrapper needs the attention more mechanically.

    No, they're not fine. Kits like the Grenade Kit are hindered by the current Grenadier trait. It's the only trait in the game that affects a weapon's projectile velocity and explosion radius, so much so that you're handicapping yourself if you don't use it. No other profession has this kind of game changing trait and hypothetically if any other profession had this kind of trait, there would be public outcry and how it diminishes build variety, but I guess since it's for core engineer nobody cares about it because who cares about core engineer?

    I agree that core engineer and Scrapper need more attention, number tweaks can only work with certain kit skills and traits like Grenadier and Iron Blooded could be reworked so that they benefit kits instead of being general traits that benefit the Holosmith.

    Karras

  • Peutrifectus.4830Peutrifectus.4830 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 24, 2018

    So you agree with me about trait tweaks then :)

    For a while, I have felt that grenadier should be rolled into wvw and pvp as standard (it's just no needed on PvE

    Sparkr's Wonderful World of Engineering - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEONFRaJV2u2f12ytXEir9A

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    IMO kits ARE the current engineer class mechanic, more than the toolbelt. It would be better if Anet were able to recognize this and take advantage of it. But it seems hard to implement right now. We will probably never see such kind of deep rework.
    Also part of the nature of kits is that there is not forcibly 1 kit. Jumping through kits is also an important aspect of the mechanic, so I would not try to limit that. Kits are not like necro or druid transforms, but like ele attunements: they work as multiple available swaps, not as a unique alt state.


    IMO the best way would be to make the Toolbelt the Profession Mechanic for Engie, but including Kits into it.

    • Put kits only on the toolbelt.
    • Free all the kit asociated toolbelt skills -> Convert the best ones into proper utility skills, assign the others as toolbelt skills of these new utilities. Make these skills only available to Core.
    • Make all toolbelt skills really good, so they compete with the kits.
    • Make every elite specialization to force its own specific kit into F5. (Holo has Photon Forge, Scrapper should have Gyros)

    Kits will lose the extra toolbelt skill, making them more balanced, toolbelt skill will be more powerful, making them more relevant, the utility slots will gain a much needed breathing room, and you'll gain a few interesting new utility skills only for Core, you can use to add build variety and buff Core into something able to compete with the elite specs.
    You'll have builds with more or less kits, builds focused on powerful toolbelt skills, builds for elite specs and builds for core.

  • Tehologist.5841Tehologist.5841 Member ✭✭✭

    Please don’t suggest removing toolbelt skills. I 100% agree that grenadier should be how grenades work. I would like a new weapon for core more than anything and more traits like iron blooded that help with survivability. I dont want to be dependent on kits, I want turrets and gadgets to be viable and RNG to be removed from elixirs.

  • Lunateric.3708Lunateric.3708 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Grenadier being baseline is the only thing I have seen here I can agree with. I think several of you agreeing on that particular point is also a good thing.

  • Zex Anthon.8673Zex Anthon.8673 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hoodie.1045 said:
    There's no point in adding new kits. The ones we currently have serve their purpose, grenade and bomb kit for damage and zone control, elixir gun for condition cleanse and team support, tool kit for CC and damage mitigation etc.

    Adding new kits would continue the growth of the profession and improve build diversity. Saying there is no point in adding new kits is like saying there is no point in adding new weapons. The kits we currently have may fit specific roles, but there is no reason we couldn't add more kits that fit the same roles, especially if they could interact with an elite specialization mechanic or weapon in some way. Kits are incredibly versatile from a design point of view, with weapons you are limited by the current pool of weapons in the game, and what they are expected to do. Bows fire arrows, swords hit things, scepters cast spells. The ambiguity of what you can classify as a "kit" really makes them a powerful creative tool.

    @Hoodie.1045 said:
    All there is to do is to improve some of the kit skills to be more impactful, like reducing the cast time and increasing the cripple duration on Box of Nails, increasing the bleed damage on Tranquilizer Dart, increasing the poison duration on Fumigate etc.

    The current kits provide core engineer with a decent spread of tools, and with some optimization they could perform better, but the way kits are implemented makes balancing them really difficult. As a utility skill you can run any number of kits between 0 and 5, and so to avoid making them overpowered they are balanced around using multiple kits. This leads to a piano play-style which works fine for raids where you can zone out and play the rotation, but really sucks in other game modes where running more than 1 or 2 kits becomes incredibly limiting when you must sacrifice other utility skills. As a class mechanic, kits could be balanced around a fixed number of kits much like how elementalist is balanced around a fixed number of attunements.

    I agree that traits like grenadier and short fuse need to be removed and integrated with the base kit. However, even with those traits both grenade kit and bomb kit really suck at their jobs. Grenade kit has meh dps and ok burst if you stack your boons right while not offering much of any utility. Bomb kit can't be used as a traditional melee weapon even with short fuse, and doesn't really do enough dps to zone control, but at least it has smoke bomb so you can run away. These kits are taken in raids to take advantage of a few decent skills, but are practically unusable in PvP and WvW.

    In any case, I'm mainly looking for ways to better implement an engineer profession mechanic. I just feel kits are the best way to do it.

  • Zex Anthon.8673Zex Anthon.8673 Member ✭✭✭

    @Peutrifectus.4830 said:
    nope. Kits are fine as they are. Maybe trait and number tweaks but Scrapper needs the attention more mechanically.

    Scrapper is directly affected by changes to the core class. Mechanically, elite specializations typically augment the core mechanic to alter the class while also still tying it to the profession theme. Necro elite specializations utilize life force, and shroud skills. Warrior elite specializations alter the way you use adrenaline and burst skills. Elementalist elite specializations add mechanics to the core attunement mechanic.

    Toolbelt skills don't really fill the role of a profession mechanic as a unique set of skills, effects, and secondary mechanics which add to the characteristics of the profession. They mainly serve as an extension to the utility skills, and don't really offer anything unique that is important to the way the class operates.

    Scrapper's specialization mechanic is the function gyro. I do like having it, but I will have to agree with most people on the forums in that it is not much of a spec mechanic. Now imagine if scrapper got a specialization unique kit to go along with that gyro. Lets say the kit can be a remote control. Now you can fill that kit with a bunch of skills that utilize the function gyro in different ways. Launch ranged attacks, drop combo fields, blast/whirl target location, pulse barrier around it, deploy shield, etc. Suddenly the function gyro can have a lot more "functions".

    Now, obviously the devs could add this "kit" without reworking core kits into the profession mechanic, but I think that classifying photon forge, remote control, or any other future specialization mechanic as a kit would streamline the profession and provide some direction for the design of the class.

  • Zex Anthon.8673Zex Anthon.8673 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tehologist.5841 said:
    Please don’t suggest removing toolbelt skills. I 100% agree that grenadier should be how grenades work. I would like a new weapon for core more than anything and more traits like iron blooded that help with survivability. I dont want to be dependent on kits, I want turrets and gadgets to be viable and RNG to be removed from elixirs.

    I am not a fan of removing toolbelt skills either. I would prefer kits be bound to the swap weapon key, and balance them as such, so they operate well as stand alone kits. I suggested removing some, not all, of the toolbelt skills similar to photon forge as a way to keep multi-kit builds. Personally I don't think engineer needs more than 1 or 2 kits on any build. I rarely use more than 1 kit outside of raiding with condi dps.

    Making kits a class mechanic would not make you dependent on kits, like a second weapon you don't need to touch it if you don't want to, but the tools are available to you, and it doesn't lock up a utility slot in the process.

    Some gadgets and turrets are viable, its just hard to specialize entirely in either one of them. Tying kits to the profession mechanic would allow you to run 5 kits and still use tool kit. Gadgets would pair well with mortar kit because they can take advantage of the fields. With mortar kit classified as a profession mechanic ability rather than an elite, you can finally get that gadget elite. Elite mortar kit never felt like an elite anyways because of the nature of kits and the fact that it has no cool down.

    They already removed elixir RNG with a recent patch, in fact the changes to toss elixir U caused a stink because while they were removing the "RNG" on that skill they removed some valuable tools from core engineer, namely projectile mitigation and invisibility. The skill wasn't really RNG because no matter what you got, it still worked to stop projectiles. By classifying kits as a profession mechanic, you free up 7 new utility skills which can be used to provide engineer with some tools that it either lost, or never had.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hoodie.1045 " " said:

    No, they're not fine. Kits like the Grenade Kit are hindered by the current Grenadier trait. It's the only trait in the game that affects a weapon's projectile velocity and explosion radius, so much so that you're handicapping yourself if you don't use it. No other profession has this kind of game changing trait and hypothetically if any other profession had this kind of trait, there would be public outcry and how it diminishes build variety, but I guess since it's for core engineer nobody cares about it because who cares about core engineer?

    No its not the only trait that handicaps you if you dont take it. A wonderful example is SB trait on ranger and light on your feet.

    Kits need better traits thats true and scrapper needs a class mechanic. Like the function gyro takes the place of F1 and augments the current heal F1 with positioning revive/stomps and AoE.
    Core engi is fine mechanic wise. Skills and traits need a look at though.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hoodie.1045 said:

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:
    What do you guys think? What new kits would you like to see? What would a scrapper kit look like? What utility skills would you use to replace kits?

    There's no point in adding new kits. The ones we currently have serve their purpose, grenade and bomb kit for damage and zone control, elixir gun for condition cleanse and team support, tool kit for CC and damage mitigation etc. All there is to do is to improve some of the kit skills to be more impactful, like reducing the cast time and increasing the cripple duration on Box of Nails, increasing the bleed damage on Tranquilizer Dart, increasing the poison duration on Fumigate etc.

    @Peutrifectus.4830 said:
    nope. Kits are fine as they are. Maybe trait and number tweaks but Scrapper needs the attention more mechanically.

    No, they're not fine. Kits like the Grenade Kit are hindered by the current Grenadier trait. It's the only trait in the game that affects a weapon's projectile velocity and explosion radius, so much so that you're handicapping yourself if you don't use it. No other profession has this kind of game changing trait and hypothetically if any other profession had this kind of trait, there would be public outcry and how it diminishes build variety, but I guess since it's for core engineer nobody cares about it because who cares about core engineer?

    I agree that core engineer and Scrapper need more attention, number tweaks can only work with certain kit skills and traits like Grenadier and Iron Blooded could be reworked so that they benefit kits instead of being general traits that benefit the Holosmith.

    Actually, what you describe is an issue with traits and not Kits. Thus @Peutrifectus.4830 statement stands. :p Also, I don't buy the whole "no other profession" hyperbole. It's true, no other profession has this exact trait issue. But take a trip down to the Necro forums sometime and see what they have to say about some of the issues that their traits create. They'll remind you that even if Engineer is hampered by a trait or two they are still strong across the board and bringing an Engineer on a Raid isn't an auto kick like it is for Necromancer. I suspect many professions do have limiting traits or aspects to them that are game changing, such as Shroud. I don't main Necromancer so maybe @Dadnir.5038 or @AXEL.8924 can highlight Necromancer trait lines and their lackluster build diversity.

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:

    @Hoodie.1045 said:
    There's no point in adding new kits. The ones we currently have serve their purpose, grenade and bomb kit for damage and zone control, elixir gun for condition cleanse and team support, tool kit for CC and damage mitigation etc.

    Adding new kits would continue the growth of the profession and improve build diversity. Saying there is no point in adding new kits is like saying there is no point in adding new weapons. The kits we currently have may fit specific roles, but there is no reason we couldn't add more kits that fit the same roles, especially if they could interact with an elite specialization mechanic or weapon in some way. Kits are incredibly versatile from a design point of view, with weapons you are limited by the current pool of weapons in the game, and what they are expected to do. Bows fire arrows, swords hit things, scepters cast spells. The ambiguity of what you can classify as a "kit" really makes them a powerful creative tool.

    @Hoodie.1045 said:
    All there is to do is to improve some of the kit skills to be more impactful, like reducing the cast time and increasing the cripple duration on Box of Nails, increasing the bleed damage on Tranquilizer Dart, increasing the poison duration on Fumigate etc.

    The current kits provide core engineer with a decent spread of tools, and with some optimization they could perform better, but the way kits are implemented makes balancing them really difficult. As a utility skill you can run any number of kits between 0 and 5, and so to avoid making them overpowered they are balanced around using multiple kits. This leads to a piano play-style which works fine for raids where you can zone out and play the rotation, but really sucks in other game modes where running more than 1 or 2 kits becomes incredibly limiting when you must sacrifice other utility skills. As a class mechanic, kits could be balanced around a fixed number of kits much like how elementalist is balanced around a fixed number of attunements.

    I agree that traits like grenadier and short fuse need to be removed and integrated with the base kit. However, even with those traits both grenade kit and bomb kit really suck at their jobs. Grenade kit has meh dps and ok burst if you stack your boons right while not offering much of any utility. Bomb kit can't be used as a traditional melee weapon even with short fuse, and doesn't really do enough dps to zone control, but at least it has smoke bomb so you can run away. These kits are taken in raids to take advantage of a few decent skills, but are practically unusable in PvP and WvW.

    In any case, I'm mainly looking for ways to better implement an engineer profession mechanic. I just feel kits are the best way to do it.

    Actually, saying there is no need to add new kits is not like saying there is no need for new weapons. You're comparing apples to oranages. And it's not like kits are the only way to increase build diversity. Though you wouldn't be adding much in the realm of build diversity. A new kit would likely just replace an old kit on a build. So odds are strong that the number of builds would remain the same and it would just cycle out older kits that no longer perform as well as the proposed new kits. Furthermore I'm real leary of claims that build diversity would increase when you swap out a bunch of old mechanics and replace them with a bunch of new mechanics. Are you really creating build diversity or are you just creating a different set of small builds? The build diversity argument doesn't hold up to scrunity since you're talking about replacing one mechanic (current toolbelts) and replacing it with a new mechanic (kits as toolbelt skills). This creates a Utiltiy skill gap that in no way inherently increases build diversity. It would be accurate to say that it would shake up Engineer builds and create a bunch of new builds. It is not accurate to claim that build diversity would actually increase if all that happens is a bunch of old builds are rendered unplayable. The build diversity argument only applies if the proposed changes allow for Engineer to keep it's current set of builds while also adding new builds. This isn't going to be the case. Also, why would you add more kits that fits the same role? You're creating redunacy, not diversity.

    However, there is a strong reason why we shouldn't add new kits, it would likely remove something else. Unless new kits were coming via an Elite Spec the addition of more kits would likely cause a rebalancing that would remove something else. We would also lose out on the versatility you say kits bring to the profession. Part of that versatility is the ability to have more than one kit that allows you to swiftly adapt to changing conditions in a way that only Elementalist can truly match. You are, however, suggesting that we only get to use one kit at a time and that limits both build diversity and versatility. At best we end up with the same number of builds with the kits replacing old builds that can no longer work.

    I also don't think that such a change is needed to give Engineer something to build Elites off of. They are already able to build Elite specs. You don't need to make kits into a core mechanic to get that. I know Scrapper is lack luster but that was ANets first go at Elite specs in general. When the came back for round two they greatly improved on make Elites across the board, not only for Engineer but other professions. The problems with Scrapper are likely due to the lack of insight they had at the time. Now that they know how to better impliment Elites I do not see them struggling to find a mechanic to base Elites off of.

    Overall, while kits could use some work and some updating I am highly dubious of any claim that says build diversity and versatility magically increases by making kits a core mechanic. What is far more likely is that you kill a bunch of current builds and the new mechanic and whatever utilities it got would simply fill the void that was created. Versilatiy would certainly drop, that's for sure.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Actually, what you describe is an issue with traits and not Kits. Thus @Peutrifectus.4830 statement stands. :p Also, I don't buy the whole "no other profession" hyperbole. It's true, no other profession has this exact trait issue. But take a trip down to the Necro forums sometime and see what they have to say about some of the issues that their traits create. They'll remind you that even if Engineer is hampered by a trait or two they are still strong across the board and bringing an Engineer on a Raid isn't an auto kick like it is for Necromancer. I suspect many professions do have limiting traits or aspects to them that are game changing, such as Shroud. I don't main Necromancer so maybe @Dadnir.5038 or @AXEL.8924 can highlight Necromancer trait lines and their lackluster build diversity.

    I'm not sure why you involve the necromancer in this thread and this is certainly not the place to talk about necromancer's traits. Ah! Also, necromancer don't lack build diversity.

    On topic, I think that the toolbelt is fine as a class mechanism. It's a mechanism not gated behind any ressource or hindering mechanisms and that naturally provide what could be liken to a 2nd utility bar. I'm not saying that ANet couldn't work a bit on the cool down, associate more traits to this mechanism and some of the effects to make them a bit more enticing but, objectively, it's far from being a "bad" mechanism. You could say that ATM, one of the strengths of this mechanism is that it is the least invasive profession mechanic in the game (Based on the point of view, this can also be a weakness thought).

    As for Kit being "The" profession's mechanic, I don't think this is a good idea.

  • anet always has had engineer in the too hard basket so do it later, only gets the token bit of work done on it to keep players that use engineers playing.

  • Carighan.6758Carighan.6758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In a certain way I agree, but I don't see it only as an engineer problem even. Too many class mechanics are either superflous (Burst is just a sixth weapon skill, wooooow :open_mouth: ) or underdeveloped. Others are diluted because the class actually has multiple completely separate class mechanics, like, well, Engineers.

    I think the toolbelt is a nifty idea. I think kits are a nifty idea. But they could both easily be developed into a class mechanic on their own, for an entire class. There's no need to mix both, nevermind the additional complexity brought in by the Holosmith which is just another kit in the end (which is super-confusing in itself, because well, kits are already a mechanic).

  • Hyper Cutter.9376Hyper Cutter.9376 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lunateric.3708 said:
    Grenadier being baseline is the only thing I have seen here I can agree with

    That and replacing above-water grenade kit with the vastly better underwater version.

  • Zex Anthon.8673Zex Anthon.8673 Member ✭✭✭

    @Carighan.6758 said:
    In a certain way I agree, but I don't see it only as an engineer problem even. Too many class mechanics are either superflous (Burst is just a sixth weapon skill, wooooow :open_mouth: ) or underdeveloped. Others are diluted because the class actually has multiple completely separate class mechanics, like, well, Engineers.

    I think the toolbelt is a nifty idea. I think kits are a nifty idea. But they could both easily be developed into a class mechanic on their own, for an entire class. There's no need to mix both, nevermind the additional complexity brought in by the Holosmith which is just another kit in the end (which is super-confusing in itself, because well, kits are already a mechanic).

    I agree, other classes suffer from the same problem, but I don't think any other profession mechanics are as dull or underdeveloped as the toolbelt. Sure, warrior burst ability is just a sixth weapon skill, but the class play style is structured around building adrenaline and landing that "big attack". It creates a unique play style that defines the class. I would say the only other class that lacks a defining profession mechanic as badly as the engineer is the guardian. Virtues were basically just 3 extra signets before firebrand came along. Now look at profession mechanics like necro lifeforce/death shroud, elementalist attunements, ranger pet, thief initiative/steal, or mesmer illusion/shatter. All have utility and weapon skills that interact with their profession mechanics. All are mechanics that are important to the classes specific play style.

    I could play engineer without touching toolbelt skills and it wouldn't feel like I was playing a different class. For that reason I don't feel like the toolbelt adds much to the class mechanically. Toolbelt is more akin to thief duel wield as a class mechanic. Its cool that it exists, but it isn't important to the profession play style. Kits are really the only aspect of the engineer that give them a defined play style. It would be nice to be able to use them without restricting the utility bar.

  • Zex Anthon.8673Zex Anthon.8673 Member ✭✭✭

    After some more thought I will have to agree that multi-kit swapping is rather important to the kit mechanic. Even on holosmith I find it useful and fun to swap between photon forge, a weapon set, and a kit. That being said, I notice most builds on metabattle run no more than 2 kits with the exception of raids and fractals. That is mainly because those raid and fractal builds cycle through each kit to take advantage of a few high dps skills. In my opinion fixing the number of kits would allow for some much needed buffs and will make more kit skills relevant in all game modes.

    I would suggest removing/integrating the healing toolbelt skills and have f4 and f5 keys bound to selectable kits. This way the three utility slot toolbelt skills are preserved, and every build can have two kits for a wide range of tools. Builds could run any combination of offensive or defensive kits. Elite specializations could reserve f5 for their specialization specific kit.

  • To build on this idea a bit more, traits would need to be changed to better encompass the kit mechanic.

    All professions except engineer follow a basic structure of design. The structure being 5 specializations, with 5 utility families that have 4 skills each. One of the specializations governs the profession mechanic with additional profession mechanic traits spread over all traitlines. And, each of the other specializations governs a specific utility family. The problem with engi is it has 4 utility families with 5 skills each.

    The Class Structure

    Below is the current engi layout (Taken off Wiki):

    Explosives - Bomb Kit, Grenade Kit
    Firearms - pistol, rifle, harpoon gun, flamethrower
    Inventions - shield, turret
    Alchemy - Elixirs, Med Kit
    Tools - tool belt, gadget, tool kit

    Both explosives and firearms do not govern a utility family and are in my opinion the most poorly designed specializations of the class.

    Below is how I would rework traits and utilities:

    Explosives - Bomb/Grenade Kit, Mines (Could be traps, just needs to follow the explosive theme)
    Firearms - pistol, rifle, harpoon gun, flamethrower, Mortar Kit, Ammunition
    Inventions - shield, turret, tool kit
    Alchemy - Elixirs, Med Kit, Elixir Gun
    Tools - tool belt, mace (if they ever decide to add another core weapon), gadget, generalized kit traits

    This would require removing 1 skill from each of the remaining families to make room for two utility families. I looked at which utilities didn't fit the family theme, were redundant, or were just under-powered.

    I would remove:

    • Throw Mine and integrate it with the mine family
    • Elixir C (removing 13 conditions every 40 s is incredibly under-powered especially with today's standards)
    • Rifle Turret, or Rocket Turret (They are redundant in that they both provide power dps. Alternatively you could remove flame turret to make turrets more power focused)

    Mines/Traps are pretty straightforward, they would provide dps and cc.

    Ammunition is just a suggestion, but whatever family firearms governs should be condi dps focused.

    Kit Trait Changes

    • Backpack Regenerator: Move to Tools, replace Takedown Round, or Power Wrench
    • Short Fuse: Replace with Sticky Bombs - Bombs now attach to target enemy if they are within range.
    • Grenadier: Current benefits become vanilla, grenade skills now produce an additional volley of grenades.
    • Juggernaut: Applies to all kits, move to Tools, replace Adrenal Implant
    • Power Wrench: Current benefits, plus Pry Bar now overcharges turrets it hits.

    Additional traits could be added for elixir gun or mortar kit, but it isn't necesarry.

  • A Grandmaster trait called Kit Expert... Replaces all toolbelt skills with kits. All we need, that way we have a choice for people that want it or not. Ofcourse with buffing kit skills aswell.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2018

    The problem with kits is that they bring so much to the table, you usually need to bring one or more. They replace a second weapon, for all intent and purposes.

    I would rather see an f5 added to core engi that eliminates the elite toolbelt skill. Have an arrow menu (like utilities) for the f5 that lets you select from the current utility kits. This means that you can only choose one, so you will have to choose wisely based on your build.

    This does eliminate multi kit builds and piano game play that some will mourn, but it opens up more build variety and better ability for the devs to balance. It also preserves the kits and does not eliminate them.

    And for the record, I still believe that engi needs a second MH base weapon. We have 2 base OHs, we need two base MHs. This way we can have a power and Condi mh weapon. Mh pistol is not hybrid and cannot compete with...anything...

  • There are many ways a kit mechanic could be implemented. Initially I would have agreed with you. Limiting the number of kits to 1 would allow for kits to be buffed such that they are on par with weapon set power. However, after some thought I would have to say running multiple kits is fun and important to core engi identity.

    The balance issues surrounding kits arise because you are not locked to a specific number of kits. You can run any number between 1 and 5 kits, but the kits must be balanced around specific builds. In the current state, those builds are raid builds because they take the class to the limits of dps.

    So locking the number of kits would create uniformity among all builds simplifying the balancing process, but what number should they be locked to? Too many kits results in under-powered skills and piano play. Single kits would mean stronger kits, but fewer tools and loss of unique game-play.

    In my experience, 2 kits has been enough to provide the game-play of multiple kits without it feeling unwieldy outside of playing a rotation. Plus, there is a bit of elegance to the design of 3 tool belt skills and 2 kits. You are not losing much by removing the healing/elite tool belt skills.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2018

    Well you could run 3, it would just be one utility, med kit, and mortar. I could see them maybe pitching mortar as the elite and putting grenades there, however.

    The problem with f4 and 5 being kits is that it means giving up the utility slot 3 toolbelt skill (we Would already have to give up the elite f5 toolbelt in my proposal). Would you just throw that away at this point?

    I do think balance would be much better with just one kit. Additionally, it would force people to choose what is most important to bring which is better build design, imo, though I still think much work need a to be done to get MH pistol to compete with kits, which they absolutely need to do.
    *******†********

    I could also see kits slotting in the weapon swap slot as a second weapon. This would also make you choose what kit to take and may just be easier in general. Then take the kit toolbelt and make the a utility skill category to choose from in utilities. That might be the easiest answer for Anet.

  • For the 2 kit scenario I was suggesting we remove the healing tool belt and shift the utility tool belts over. So you would have utility tool belts in F1-F3 and F4 and F5 would be kits.

    I dont like the idea restricting the kit slots to specific kits. I think having the ability to mix and match kits would help build diversity.

    All kits would be more or less equal in power and just fill different roles. So there would not be an elite kit slot or a healing kit slot. Mortar kit would provide combo field utility. Med kit would provide team support and healing.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I could see that option. If anet did it, I would be happy with it.

    1. Turn kits into equipable items that take up a weapon slot.
    2. Give weapon swapping.

    Access to no more than two kits at a time means kit skills/traits can be buffed or made more interesting without ruining class balance. No more overly lame rotations. No need to change tool belt or utility skills.

  • I don't see how kits could become equipable items without major impractical changes. Would these items have their own stats? Could you find them on mobs? They would need their own skins. You would essentially be adding 7 entirely new weapons to the game that would only be accessible to one profession. And even if these changes are made, if kits are classified as weapons they would cease to be something unique to engineer. Would future elite specs be able to use these "kit weapons" for other professions?

    I could see adding the option to use two kits in the weapon slots as alternatives to actual weapons, but you still run into the issue that kits do not have stats. So lets say we keep the single weapon mechanic, and make the second weapon slot exclusive to kits. This would be more practical, but now you are sacrificing the ability to run multiple kits just to keep a few tool belt skills that have very little impact on the profession game play.

    I think limiting the number of kits to 2 would provide the game play of swapping in and out of multiple kits and weapons, without it becoming an "overly lame rotation". Losing the elite/healing tool belt skills wouldn't hurt that much, and the best of these skills could replace the weaker/less interesting skills in kits. Or be used to form new utility skills to replace kits.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:
    I don't see how kits could become equipable items without major impractical changes. Would these items have their own stats?

    They could just put a menu selection tab on the character equipment screen. Drop down and select from any of the current utility kits.

    As far as your other question, just do it how they calculate values now. No need to change any of that.

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