Reveal as possible mirage counterplay

First of all i mainly play PvE and up and on roam. So no idea of conquest.Second: before i start i want to ask if there is currently any good counter play against mirage cloak:If yes this thread is rather meaningless and i havent found it yet (advice appreciated)If no i suggest the following:Reveal also stops mirage cloak being applied. If it should stop it in its duration is rather debatable.Reveals arent that spammable. Most if them are teather abbilities or shouts.So if a mirage is revealed it is vulnerable. Not an instant death scentence but something to play against it.

Ofc i could ve totally wrong about this but if so please give a decebt elaboration. Atm i think mirage is overtuned in its survivability, the burst is dodgeable but still good (thus i dont mind) and i think the mobility should be kept just due to spec identity. Letting the cloak be counterable would give other classes better chance in duelling too and would give it a more balanced position.

Soo, what do you think?

Only if they make reveal stop other classes from dodging.

I personally don't think this would be a good idea. It is true that there are not a lot of reveal skills, but regardless, it could be far too punishing to the mirage. Example: play sic em soulbeast, bait out sword 2 and distortion, and burst them down with sic em. They are left with very few defenses at that point, and the incoming burst is so high damage that it would probably guarantee death to the mirage. I don't think that an elite spec mechanic should have such a specific hard counter. And this is coming from somebody who hates fighting mirages.

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:I personally don't think this would be a good idea. It is true that there are not a lot of reveal skills, but regardless, it could be far too punishing to the mirage. Example: play sic em soulbeast, bait out sword 2 and distortion, and burst them down with sic em. They are left with very few defenses at that point, and the incoming burst is so high damage that it would probably guarantee death to the mirage. I don't think that an elite spec mechanic should have such a specific hard counter. And this is coming from somebody who hates fighting mirages.

Well there is still the mobility part that is fairly decent on mirage that shouldnt be touched on IMO. Distortion is also still a way to get out of situations and that shouldnt be touched on either.Blink, Portal and jaunt are dtill a thing. Point you made is actually what i am getting at. The mirage would need to disengage because reveal is a hard counter. But because reveal skills are not overly abundant they could reengage afterwards and fight back.Reveal is thus a hard counter but nit a lobg ladting one. It would finally give some counterplay.

@Levetty.1279 said:Only if they make reveal stop other classes from dodging.

Mirage can stack mirage cloak not only with dodging also with utilities and mirrors.And they can augment their clones with it.Daredevil is fairly visible when evading and clearly telegraphed, mirage cloak is not clearly telegraphed and it produces a visual over load that is difficult to play against.The evasion part is bit the reason why i made this post its the pure augmentation that cones with mirage cloak and the chain evasion you can make with it.I thought it works similarly to thiefs stealth so the counter play could be similarly.

I thought it works similarly to thiefs stealth so the counter play could be similarly.Its literally a dodge. It works similarly to thiefs dodge and warriors dodge and Ranger's dodge and the 6 other classes dodge. The other classes can dodge with weapon skills and utilities.

@"Levetty.1279" said:

I thought it works similarly to thiefs stealth so the counter play could be similarly.Its literally a dodge. It works similarly to thiefs dodge and warriors dodge and Ranger's dodge and the 6 other classes dodge. The other classes can dodge with weapon skills and utilities.

No it works specially thats the whole point of mirage cloak. Sure its mainly provided by dodge but it can be generated otherwise and it grants you special powers similar to thiefs stealth. It can be provided during any kind of attack so its not "just" a dodge.If it already has decent counterplay i am all ears if not i think this idea isnt that bad.Its fair counterplay against it IMO and the mesmer needs some type of skill to get away with it although not totally pro level.A reveal would turn the table on the mirage. Atm it can chain evade and constantly apply pressure doing so. If you would reveal the mirage they have to go on the defensive and you would finally have a chance to strike, just in a short window.

Its counter play is baiting out dodges. We have had dodges since the beginning of the game and they've never been a problem

One of the primary arguments against the mesmer is that it has "everything", ie stealth in addition to its evades and damage. So isnt reveal already counterplay to one of the aspects of the mesmer?

I dont get it.

@Levetty.1279 said:Its counter play is baiting out dodges. We have had dodges since the beginning of the game and they've never been a problem

Well thats a fair point.Although mirage has more than dodges to generate mirage cloak. I. E all deception skills. The whole point of this threat is not to completely invalidate mirage in competitive modes, rather give it some counter play.Is there any other option beside dodge baiting that could be used against a mirage?

@"Dawdler.8521" said:One of the primary arguments against the mesmer is that it has "everything", ie stealth in addition to its evades and damage. So isnt reveal already counterplay to one of the aspects of the mesmer?

I dont get it.

Sure you're right about that. Reveal exists because you cant gight against someone you cant see. The mirage cloak is somewhat of the opposite like you can see it but cant hit it.But as you said they can do pretty much everything. Stealth, chain evade, reflect, burst, sustain, block and have high mobility on top of that.Thus i think because reveal skills are not that abundant and stealth skills on mesmer arent really too it would be healthier for the balance if mirage gets a second counter play.Maybe a bit nuianced like it prevents ambush attacks but you still evade or something like that.

I think people forget that mirage is increasingly ineffective the more enemies there are present. They really aren't great in team fights because if you focus them they quickly run out of options and are forced to either disengage or die. They are also propped up (defensively) by mirage cloak as they have the worst healing and passive defenses of any class. Giving hard counters to their only real defense so that they're also trash in 1v1 will just make them good at disengaging and, I guess, casting portals?

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:Only if they make reveal stop other classes from dodging.

Minus clones because honestly that's a non issue for everyone who has spent time in PvP. What you're asking for. Is to stop a class from using dodge ....Mirage can stack cloak using one reliable utility skilI. Generates mirrors reliably from a singular utility skill and trait (though in some circumstances the trait could be impractical).But what's interesting is. This is not a unique thing to have skills add to a classes ability to dodge or evade. Yet mirage is the only class that should be punished?

Daredevil is fairly visible when evading and clearly telegraphed.Minus bounding dodge and vault looking extremely similar mirage cloak doesn't look like anything else. It also doesn't last long because...its a dodge. . .

The evasion part is bit the reason why i made this post its the pure augmentation that cones with mirage cloak and the chain evasion you can make with it.Two dodges. I'm not sure how two dodges counts as a chain.Now if you count the mirrors which a mirage has to run through because they don't spawn on top of them usually ( unless using the heal. In which case you will notice) then you could chain dodge. But that means running with the master traits for distortion. Using 3 clones for maximum effect and running towards each mirror before they despawn. So that example wouldn't be super practical given WvW is open terrain.I thought it works similarly to thiefs stealth so the counter play could be similarly.Not even close to similar. Evasion and stealth are way different mechanics

Edit: You also seem like you don't know how mesmer works. Have you even played the class? Because no one just takes all the deception skills. At most people take all of just two and one of those is the heal skill.Edit 2. Sad realization. Mirage has 2 utilitiy skills that would be considered useful that shipped with pof.

So far the suggested counters for Mirage are bait dodging and outnumbering lol

@Rysdude.3824 said:So far the suggested counters for Mirage are bait dodging.

For mirage cloak yes....like what people have been doing for years with dodging?Or at least people that don't play on a casual level.

@Solori.6025 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:Only if they make reveal stop other classes from dodging.

Daredevil is fairly visible when evading and clearly telegraphed.Minus bounding dodge and vault looking extremely similar mirage cloak doesn't look like anything else. It also doesn't last long because...its a dodge. . .

The evasion part is bit the reason why i made this post its the pure augmentation that cones with mirage cloak and the chain evasion you can make with it.Two dodges. I'm not sure how two dodges counts as a chain.Now if you count the mirrors which a mirage has to run through because they don't spawn on top of them usually ( unless using the heal. In which case you will notice) then you could chain dodge. But that means running with the master traits for distortion. Using 3 clones for maximum effect and running towards each mirror before they despawn. So that example wouldn't be super practical given WvW is open terrain.I thought it works similarly to thiefs stealth so the counter play could be similarly.Not even close to similar. Evasion and stealth are way different mechanics

First of all yes i have played the profession i play all of them actually and i know many strengths and weaknesses. And i play it for a long time.

You make fair points on the evasion skills of other classes and that evasion chaining needs skill.As i said befire these are just proposals to provide counter play. I dont want a please nerf to the ground discussion. If already reasonable counterplay exists and this becomes a non issue this thread is not really relevant anymore, thats why i asked this proposal in this thread. Every other profession whines about mesmers so besdies the logical Main biases i heard several things that make my proposal futile.The ambush mechanic is exactly like thiefs and they cannot ambush when they cannit stealth. I think the evasion could stay actually. Reveal preventing ambushes would be the more reasoble change if the two but i currently doubt that its needed if they keep mesmers otherwise in check.

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I think people forget that mirage is increasingly ineffective the more enemies there are present. They really aren't great in team fights because if you focus them they quickly run out of options and are forced to either disengage or die. They are also propped up (defensively) by mirage cloak as they have the worst healing and passive defenses of any class. Giving hard counters to their only real defense so that they're also trash in 1v1 will just make them good at disengaging and, I guess, casting portals?

Thats good to know. As i said i roam (if i wvw) but mostly alone, so i encounter them 1v1 or me against more than one enemy. So i havent made the experience in greater numbers against a mirage.

So thank you both for your input. I want to keep this discussion civil,and i may forgot to state above that i could be rather oblivious in this regard. It was a thought experiment and i wondered how the answers would be.

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:Only if they make reveal stop other classes from dodging.

Daredevil is fairly visible when evading and clearly telegraphed.Minus bounding dodge and vault looking extremely similar mirage cloak doesn't look like anything else. It also doesn't last long because...its a dodge. . .

The evasion part is bit the reason why i made this post its the pure augmentation that cones with mirage cloak and the chain evasion you can make with it.Two dodges. I'm not sure how two dodges counts as a chain.Now if you count the mirrors which a mirage has to run through because they don't spawn on top of them usually ( unless using the heal. In which case you will notice) then you could chain dodge. But that means running with the master traits for distortion. Using 3 clones for maximum effect and running towards each mirror before they despawn. So that example wouldn't be super practical given WvW is open terrain.I thought it works similarly to thiefs stealth so the counter play could be similarly.Not even close to similar. Evasion and stealth are way different mechanics

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I think people forget that mirage is increasingly ineffective the more enemies there are present. They really aren't great in team fights because if you focus them they quickly run out of options and are forced to either disengage or die. They are also propped up (defensively) by mirage cloak as they have the worst healing and passive defenses of any class. Giving hard counters to their only real defense so that they're also trash in 1v1 will just make them good at disengaging and, I guess, casting portals?

So food for thought on the thief comparison. How much more often can a thief stealth. Compared with how often a mirage can dodge.If we were to compare elite v elite so. Deadeye v mirage. How much more can a thief use stealth attacks.Just food for thought.

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:Only if they make reveal stop other classes from dodging.

Daredevil is fairly visible when evading and clearly telegraphed.Minus bounding dodge and vault looking extremely similar mirage cloak doesn't look like anything else. It also doesn't last long because...its a dodge. . .

The evasion part is bit the reason why i made this post its the pure augmentation that cones with mirage cloak and the chain evasion you can make with it.Two dodges. I'm not sure how two dodges counts as a chain.Now if you count the mirrors which a mirage has to run through because they don't spawn on top of them usually ( unless using the heal. In which case you will notice) then you could chain dodge. But that means running with the master traits for distortion. Using 3 clones for maximum effect and running towards each mirror before they despawn. So that example wouldn't be super practical given WvW is open terrain.I thought it works similarly to thiefs stealth so the counter play could be similarly.Not even close to similar. Evasion and stealth are way different mechanics

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I think people forget that mirage is increasingly ineffective the more enemies there are present. They really aren't great in team fights because if you focus them they quickly run out of options and are forced to either disengage or die. They are also propped up (defensively) by mirage cloak as they have the worst healing and passive defenses of any class. Giving hard counters to their only real defense so that they're also trash in 1v1 will just make them good at disengaging and, I guess, casting portals?

I would be surprised if mirage isn't the strongest solo roaming class, but as far as I can tell they are also among the most useless in the zerg. I've heard there are organized groups that can use power shatter mirage to zip in, burst, and get out. Otherwise I think they are complete trash as they can't survive with so many enemies and area effects present and their sustained damage from range is terrible.

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:Only if they make reveal stop other classes from dodging.

Daredevil is fairly visible when evading and clearly telegraphed.Minus bounding dodge and vault looking extremely similar mirage cloak doesn't look like anything else. It also doesn't last long because...its a dodge. . .

The evasion part is bit the reason why i made this post its the pure augmentation that cones with mirage cloak and the chain evasion you can make with it.Two dodges. I'm not sure how two dodges counts as a chain.Now if you count the mirrors which a mirage has to run through because they don't spawn on top of them usually ( unless using the heal. In which case you will notice) then you could chain dodge. But that means running with the master traits for distortion. Using 3 clones for maximum effect and running towards each mirror before they despawn. So that example wouldn't be super practical given WvW is open terrain.I thought it works similarly to thiefs stealth so the counter play could be similarly.Not even close to similar. Evasion and stealth are way different mechanics

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I think people forget that mirage is increasingly ineffective the more enemies there are present. They really aren't great in team fights because if you focus them they quickly run out of options and are forced to either disengage or die. They are also propped up (defensively) by mirage cloak as they have the worst healing and passive defenses of any class. Giving hard counters to their only real defense so that they're also trash in 1v1 will just make them good at disengaging and, I guess, casting portals?

I would challenge that notion with only if the mirage knows what is around them.Any deadeye running perma stealth backstab will walk up and one shot you. Because backstab will do about 3k more than your total health pool. Depending on how glass the thief is.

@Solori.6025 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:Only if they make reveal stop other classes from dodging.

Daredevil is fairly visible when evading and clearly telegraphed.Minus bounding dodge and vault looking extremely similar mirage cloak doesn't look like anything else. It also doesn't last long because...its a dodge. . .

The evasion part is bit the reason why i made this post its the pure augmentation that cones with mirage cloak and the chain evasion you can make with it.Two dodges. I'm not sure how two dodges counts as a chain.Now if you count the mirrors which a mirage has to run through because they don't spawn on top of them usually ( unless using the heal. In which case you will notice) then you could chain dodge. But that means running with the master traits for distortion. Using 3 clones for maximum effect and running towards each mirror before they despawn. So that example wouldn't be super practical given WvW is open terrain.I thought it works similarly to thiefs stealth so the counter play could be similarly.Not even close to similar. Evasion and stealth are way different mechanics

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I think people forget that mirage is increasingly ineffective the more enemies there are present. They really aren't great in team fights because if you focus them they quickly run out of options and are forced to either disengage or die. They are also propped up (defensively) by mirage cloak as they have the worst healing and passive defenses of any class. Giving hard counters to their only real defense so that they're also trash in 1v1 will just make them good at disengaging and, I guess, casting portals?

I don't think that really changes my statement on mirage very much. They are still among the strongest duelists, even if a meme build can 1 shot them.

@Solori.6025 said:So food for thought on the thief comparison. How much more often can a thief stealth. Compared with how often a mirage can dodge.If we were to compare elite v elite so. Deadeye v mirage. How much more can a thief use stealth attacks.Just food for thought.

Yes but when you reveal a thief he is stripped from all defenses.My last idea on the section you quoted was: Remove the ambush cappabbilities when revealed, keep the evade.It would make some sense too. All classes needs evades, so mirage can keep it but only two classes can use ambushes that are prevented by reveal.Reveal abbilities arent that common and it would kill the mirages burst, would still need dodge baiting and tactical usr but wouldn't strip the mirage from its defenses.I am. Not saying that deadeye has not way to high amounts of stealth, which is a fair point rather that mirage can deal dmg while being invinsible and there is no counter to that. A thief can deal dmg once after being unable to stealth. So it can attack once while being untargetable. Mirage can attack multiple times while being invincible. Thats what i am getting here.I totally understand your argument and that thiefs can stealth multiple times (aka shadowmelt is way to strong for competitives IMO) but thats a red Hering and leads off from the discussion.I talk about possible counter play. Thats why i think mirage could deserve some and shadowmelt of DE is stupid because it prevents it.

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:Only if they make reveal stop other classes from dodging.

Daredevil is fairly visible when evading and clearly telegraphed.Minus bounding dodge and vault looking extremely similar mirage cloak doesn't look like anything else. It also doesn't last long because...its a dodge. . .

The evasion part is bit the reason why i made this post its the pure augmentation that cones with mirage cloak and the chain evasion you can make with it.Two dodges. I'm not sure how two dodges counts as a chain.Now if you count the mirrors which a mirage has to run through because they don't spawn on top of them usually ( unless using the heal. In which case you will notice) then you could chain dodge. But that means running with the master traits for distortion. Using 3 clones for maximum effect and running towards each mirror before they despawn. So that example wouldn't be super practical given WvW is open terrain.I thought it works similarly to thiefs stealth so the counter play could be similarly.Not even close to similar. Evasion and stealth are way different mechanics

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I think people forget that mirage is increasingly ineffective the more enemies there are present. They really aren't great in team fights because if you focus them they quickly run out of options and are forced to either disengage or die. They are also propped up (defensively) by mirage cloak as they have the worst healing and passive defenses of any class. Giving hard counters to their only real defense so that they're also trash in 1v1 will just make them good at disengaging and, I guess, casting portals?

That small change actually makes a big difference. Well..in terms of interpretation....And it's not a meme ( rude ?)if it generates constant results more, annoying and cancerous, like ghost condi thief. Which is surprisingly also a pretty good counter to mirage btw.Edit. Ghost DE condi

I think mirage is fine at this point, honestly. People are always going to focus overmuch on strong dueling classes because it sucks losing 1v1. But competitive modes in gw2 aren't about winning 1v1 and the tradeoff is that mirage is pretty terrible in team fights and zerg. Given that, they probably should be among the strongest in 1v1. They basically fill the same role as thief, which has always been about high mobility, high damage, strong in 1v1, but with not much but the ability to disengage when focused in group fights.

ANet has repeatedly nerfed mirage damage in competitive mode until they are now in a pretty reasonable place. Condi mirage can now be countered by classes with sufficient cleansing, but has a strong advantage over classes that don't. Would you agree?

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Solori.6025 said:So food for thought on the thief comparison. How much more often can a thief stealth. Compared with how often a mirage can dodge.If we were to compare elite v elite so. Deadeye v mirage. How much more can a thief use stealth attacks.Just food for thought.

It wouldn't even touch mirage burst. Ambushes for a power mirage are mostly used for cover and escape. Or in the instance you need to beam someone down while they are running from you. The burst combo for power doesn't wholly rely on ambushes.For condi. I have found the best burst has been to use Cry of frustration. Axe 3. And jaunt. With 2 clones and ineptitude I usually get around 12stacks of confusion, and 4 other cover conditions. No ambush needed. But to keep condi pressure Ambushes are A+. But they are also highly telegraphed, and using them offensively means you won't have a dodge for defense. That's a major trade off that people forget.

I am. Not saying that deadeye has not way to high amounts of stealth, which is a fair point rather that mirage can deal dmg while being invinsible and there is no counter to that. A thief can deal dmg once after being unable to stealth. So it can attack once while being untargetable. Mirage can attack multiple times while being invincible.

That is actually correct ( in the terms of mirage cloak) ONLY if a mirage chains 2 dodges or blows it's one ambush utility with a dodge. To be able to have 2 seconds of evasion cover. That's not something at all common ( or smart). But hypothetically possible.If a mirage doesnt do one of those things they will be evading long enough for ONE skill not multiple.To chain longer moments of invulnerability comes at the cost of burst and active defenses. And I can't think of any scenario where someone would waste Distortion just because.Edit: Also I remembered, because of the poor optimization of the gw2 engine and culling it is entirely possible for a thief to hit you with a stealth attack. Shadowmeld then hit you again before the game finally recognizes its location and renders the model for you. But by the time the model is rendered. They are able to restealth. This is one of the issues with the ghost build I mentioned earlier

I totally understand your argument and that thiefs can stealth multiple times (aka shadowmelt is way to strong for competitives IMO) but thats a red Hering and leads off from the discussion.I talk about possible counter play. Thats why i think mirage could deserve some and shadowmelt of DE is stupid because it prevents it.

It doesn't prevent it. In my opinion. That's something you have to learn to play around. Just like you have to learn to play around getting hit from 1700 range from a ranger

The best counter to Mirage Cloak is simply combat knowledge and active playing. Basically, you need to keep to count the dodges and be proactive in combat.It sounds very generic, but this is how it is. The problem is not Mirage Cloak, the problem is all professions are carried with so much cheese, nobody is good enough to counted skillful mechanics like Mirage Cloak when people cannot hide anymore behind their cheese.

Regarding the Reveal, you clearly didn't thought well about your proposition.

1. Reveal would need rebalancing, as 5-6s is a complete shutdown for Mirage, but less is useless against stealth. Same with the WvW reveal trap.
2. Most reveal skills are from professions that counter mesmer (DH with traps, Warrior with AoE or the pet nullifying illusion mechanic).
3. Any soft effect like disabling Ambushes or giving normal dodge is quite a complex technical implementation to be worth the effect. And Anet is well known not to touch core mechanics and when it does it's a complete new thing.
4. Now Mirages would have an insane counter without the ability to defend from it.