Which core/base profession do you want reworked/revamped? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Which core/base profession do you want reworked/revamped?

2

Comments

  • revenant

    Thief could use some tweaks and extra utility but not a full rework.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    engineer

    @Lily.1935 said:
    By the way, necromancer is so ignored that the OP spelled out every other professions name, including elementalist which has a much longer name, except for necromancer. Think about that for a second.

    Because there is no core Necromancer, only Scourge ^_^

  • ranger

    Ranger F2 in my opinion is in need of a serious rework. There are far too many useless, sub-par pets and the AI could be worked on. I think they should consolidate them into fewer more unique categories like the way expansion pets have been done, everything should be as useful as say Jacaranda or Smokescale are but in different ways (such as supportive heal/condi cleanse/buff pets, tanky pets, utility/cc pets, power/condi dps pets). We don't need like 5 different bears for example, the different types of existing bears could be used as different skins for the 1 hypothetical reworked bear pet.

  • Icefyer.9208Icefyer.9208 Member ✭✭
    edited October 5, 2018
    engineer

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    The only reason engineer isn't winning this poll is because there aren't enough people left maining the class to care. It is really that bad.

    As much as necros kitten, at least people still play them.

    Engineer has pretty much the same problems as elementalist, having way too many skills, no weapon swap, and no unique outstanding mechanic. My take on it:

    First of all, enable weapon swap, and unlock main-hand mace for the core profession. Then remove the tool belt, and replace it by two slots, F1 and F2, where you will equip the kits now. Device and weapon kits are no longer slot skills, and they are replaced by two new slot skill families: Grenades (similar to the kit, using the ammo system) and Mines (traps with optional remote activation).

    Kits would be redesigned, the final result being these five: Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, Machine gun (heavy ranged firepower), Energy Cannon (Aetherblade-style, heavy area damage), and Repair Kit (wrench and welder for turret support). All of them would be stronger than current kits, but have some disadvantages, like movement restrictions or vulnerabilities.

    Problem with this is forgetting about medkit for those of us that like playing healers since the auto attack is where most of the healing comes from and the rest is like 20-30 second cooldowns other than the bandage cone which is hard to aim right, that mortar kit actually has a heal skill, and such. How would those factor in? What kind of abilities would the repair kit have or would it just be toolkit in a new slot? And in your links, why have medkit skills take up a utility slot? Wouldn't that make those of us who try to play support engie with heals basically worthless because we'll rely on very long cooldowns while also taking up slots we need for other things in our utility? And with your scrapper rework, guess the healing and bulwark and stuff are gone?

  • Zex Anthon.8673Zex Anthon.8673 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2018
    engineer

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    Engineer has pretty much the same problems as elementalist, having way too many skills, no weapon swap, and no unique outstanding mechanic.

    Not true. Elementalist has access to far more utility skills through attunements than engineer has through kits. Plus elementalist does it all without using a utility slot.

    Lots of the engineer kits are variations of each other (looking at grenade, bomb, and mortar kit). You can see the same copy paste blindness skill in 4 different kits.

    @Icefyer.9208 said:
    Problem with this is forgetting about medkit for those of us that like playing healers since the auto attack is where most of the healing comes from and the rest is like 20-30 second cooldowns other than the bandage cone which is hard to aim right, that mortar kit actually has a heal skill, and such.

    Simple fix. Just add medkit and mortar kit to the kit slots. Medkit is only considered a healing skill because of bandage self and mortar kit is not really an elite skill due to the lack of cd.

    My suggestion, remove the f1 and f5 skills and replace them with kit slots. Shift the toolbelt skills around so your f bar looks like 3 utility toolbelts in f1-f3 and 2 kits in f4 and f5. Kits would get a rework/buff to make up for the 2 kit limit.

    Another issue that engineer has that no other class deals with is having less utility families. All other classes (other than revenant because of their mechanic) have 5 utility families with 4 skills each. This fits with the 5 core specializations, where each specialization governs a different family. Engineer has 4 families with 5 skills each. And considering kit traits are spread over all specializations which is more reminiscent of a profession mechanic and not a utility set. That leaves 2 specializations without a utility family to govern, explosions and firearms, which are arguably the least favorable specializations of the class.

    To fit the formula that all other classes adhere to, engineer should be reworked. Kits should be moved to a profession mechanic slot. And lackluster utility skills should be removed to make room for two utility families. My picks for removal: elixir c, toss mine, and flame turret. Then add mines(traps) governed by explosions and ammunition(attack modifiers) governed by firearms. Kit, elite, and healing toolbelt skills can be removed, integrated, or merged with their respected kits/skills as necessary.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Alloffems.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    necro

    Can finally one of the Devs look at this poll?
    Hello?! Necros want a rework! xD

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭
    elementalist

    I personally would say ele needs it pretty bad, they’re hit with a hybrid tax very hard to the point they can’t do kitten unless they heavily spec into it, they’re an active defense reliant prof with very few active defenses cooked into their weapons.

    Not to mention entire attunements are based on certain stats, and require those stats to be useful etc.

    A very close second id say would be revenant who needs all their weapons to get the trident treatment, followed by necromancer.

    Rangers can use a pet overhaul, but other than that they’re honestly in a great spot.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2018
    elementalist

    I said elem, because it needs.
    But there is also revenant : I don't get the point of revenant without Herald (even after nerfs) or Renegade !? Is there or was there a build somewhere without the elites spec ?
    I think they should give revenant a F2 (a shadowstep, a third legend ... i don't know), and when you equip an elite spec you understand you lose the benefit of this F2 for an other. For now I don't see the benefit of revenant core.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    necro

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    I said elem, because it needs.
    But there is also revenant : I don't get the point of revenant without Herald (even after nerfs) or Renegade !? Is there or was there a build somewhere without the elites spec ?

    Wanna speak about necro? xD
    Core is almost unplayable in any gamemode (guess there are some super cheesy wvw roaming builds)
    Core just gets beat by both especs.
    But if you think about the other classes, it's exactly the same.

    I think they should give revenant a F2 (a shadowstep, a third legend ... i don't know), and when you equip an elite spec you understand you lose the benefit of this F2 for an other. For now I don't see the benefit of revenant core.

  • necro

    I wish the Necromancer's orginal shroud is a full range spec instead of this weird mess that it is now.
    1. Life Blast - make it more like mesmer/guardian scepter 1. More fluid instead of this weird haduken thing. Adjust traits related to it to balance.
    2. Dark Path - change this whole skill. Teleport away instead and leave a lesser Chillblains.

  • Tehologist.5841Tehologist.5841 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018
    engineer

    Kits should not be forced upon us, should have weapon swap and more than 3 weapons. Kits are not a mechanic, they are only an optional utility skill, the mechanic is toolbelt and weapons don’t impact it. I don’t buy the excuse of not having weapon swap because of optional utilities.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    If I had to choose? Necromancer as they need the most love. Yeah, Revenant needs some work but Necromancer players have been waiting longer. However, I don't like the idea of reworking a profession. After six long years, people have come to love the professions as they are now, even if some of them are flawed. I'll agree that part of Necromancer's problem is the Shroud mechanic but I would never agree to take that away from anyone. Yet most reworks make the professions unrecognizable and might as well be brand new profession. I also find that people call for a rework not because something is not working properly but because it doesn't work the way you like it or think it should. Which really isn't an issue that should justify a rework. Thus, I feel it is best to fine tune a profession. Take everything learned after six years of play and just make them better. Tweak the weak parts and make lackluster stuff more tantalizing.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tehologist.5841 said:
    Kits should not be forced upon us, should have weapon swap and more than 3 weapons. Kits are not a mechanic, they are only an optional utility skill, the mechanic is toolbelt and weapons don’t impact it. I don’t buy the excuse of not having weapon swap because of optional utilities.

    You don't have to buy it but that is the reason Engineer doesn't have weapon swap. It is already possible for Engineer to run with more weapon skills at a time than any other profession, save Elementalist. If Kits weren't so lackluster this really wouldn't be an issue.

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    A very close second id say would be revenant who needs all their weapons to get the trident treatment, followed by necromancer.

    The trident thing is just a bad idea that shouldn't be extended to the rest of Revenant.

  • elementalist

    Why ranger? I just played HoT, hero points and story and all, and rocked it. Absolute easymode. :tongue:

    Better AI would be nice though, but that also goes for all the other AI pets from necro, ele, scrapper and stuff.

  • @Rufo.3716 said:
    I say thief just because they are stupid with the perma stealth and run away and hide kitten. Nobody can possibly even try to catch them if they want to get away. The class is so beyond stupid right now that it would need a total rework.

    Amazing how in a thread looking for positive reworks, there's still thief QQ.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.

  • ranger

    Core ranger is super kitten. The pet is horrible, everything about it is horrible. Pet AI is bad, pet abilities are slow and the vast majority of abilities ineffectual.
    Traps are really weak and limited because of no range, shouts are super kitten, spirits are super kitten, signets are meh, and survival skills are more or less mandatory because they're the only condi cleanse.

    Most of the weapons are quite good but literally 3/4s of core ranger is total kitten.

    I don't think any of the other classes are anywhere near as bad as core ranger.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @scerevisiae.1972 said:
    Core ranger is super kitten. The pet is horrible, everything about it is horrible. Pet AI is bad, pet abilities are slow and the vast majority of abilities ineffectual.
    Traps are really weak and limited because of no range, shouts are super kitten, spirits are super kitten, signets are meh, and survival skills are more or less mandatory because they're the only condi cleanse.

    Most of the weapons are quite good but literally 3/4s of core ranger is total kitten.

    I don't think any of the other classes are anywhere near as bad as core ranger.

    Necromancer. Core Engineer/Scrapper. Revenant. The idea that Ranger is the worst profession in the game is just amusing. Necromancer has been at the bottom for 6 years. It always amuses me that folks actually fight to be perceived as the worst profession in the game, as if that actually mattered for anything.

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭
    elementalist

    @scerevisiae.1972 said:
    Core ranger is super kitten. The pet is horrible, everything about it is horrible. Pet AI is bad, pet abilities are slow and the vast majority of abilities ineffectual.
    Traps are really weak and limited because of no range, shouts are super kitten, spirits are super kitten, signets are meh, and survival skills are more or less mandatory because they're the only condi cleanse.

    Most of the weapons are quite good but literally 3/4s of core ranger is total kitten.

    I don't think any of the other classes are anywhere near as bad as core ranger.

    The only thing bad with ranger atm is that our old pets (pre xpac) kinda suck because they haven’t aged well and their abilities haven’t been updated to the new standard of pet. The only utilities we have that are lackluster are traps, and even then they’re brought for damage on a regular basis.

    Don’t get me wrong, ranger is not without flaws, no class is, but it is very far from being the worst prof, ESPECIALLY the core prof.

    Ranger is one of the like, 3 professions who actually can use their core build (no espec) and be perfectly viable and useful. Necro on the other hand.... let’s just forget about core necro...

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭
    elementalist

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Tehologist.5841 said:
    Kits should not be forced upon us, should have weapon swap and more than 3 weapons. Kits are not a mechanic, they are only an optional utility skill, the mechanic is toolbelt and weapons don’t impact it. I don’t buy the excuse of not having weapon swap because of optional utilities.

    You don't have to buy it but that is the reason Engineer doesn't have weapon swap. It is already possible for Engineer to run with more weapon skills at a time than any other profession, save Elementalist. If Kits weren't so lackluster this really wouldn't be an issue.

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    A very close second id say would be revenant who needs all their weapons to get the trident treatment, followed by necromancer.

    The trident thing is just a bad idea that shouldn't be extended to the rest of Revenant.

    Why’s the trident thing a bad idea? Revenants literally begged for that functionality on all their weapons back in HoT.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • Kas.3509Kas.3509 Member ✭✭✭
    mesmer

    I misclicked mesmer, but I meant necromancer :P Core necromancer could use redesign.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Durzlla.6295 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Tehologist.5841 said:
    Kits should not be forced upon us, should have weapon swap and more than 3 weapons. Kits are not a mechanic, they are only an optional utility skill, the mechanic is toolbelt and weapons don’t impact it. I don’t buy the excuse of not having weapon swap because of optional utilities.

    You don't have to buy it but that is the reason Engineer doesn't have weapon swap. It is already possible for Engineer to run with more weapon skills at a time than any other profession, save Elementalist. If Kits weren't so lackluster this really wouldn't be an issue.

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    A very close second id say would be revenant who needs all their weapons to get the trident treatment, followed by necromancer.

    The trident thing is just a bad idea that shouldn't be extended to the rest of Revenant.

    Why’s the trident thing a bad idea? Revenants literally begged for that functionality on all their weapons back in HoT.

    Well, it doesn't actually fix a problem and I prefer fixing problems as opposed to just giving the illusion that you are addressing a problem. Perhaps people begged for it back in HoT but now that we have seen it in action we know that it doesn't benefit us. It is either lackluster and useless (Shiro and Jalis) or slanted and makes it clear that only specific Legends are worth running (Glint and Mallyx). It doesn't really add support elements to Revenant play (but would be taken into consideration when developing additional mechanics) and Revenant would be better off addressing issues between traits and abilities than trying to just tack on a bunch of conditions.

    It would also further pigeonhole the Legends into specific functions making them less flexible. For example, Mallyx gets torment which is fine if you are running a condition dps build. However, if you are using Mallyx for its ability to manipulate conditions and boons then adding torment doesn't make your build stronger. So you either run Mallyx as a condition dps build in order to gain the benefit from the bonus or you don't and you suffer from the current problems that Revenant suffers from. End result, less build diversity. Thus, it doesn't actually help solve problems that Revenant has.

    For some bizarre reason, people seem to think that the fix for Revenant is to just tack on conditions but that doesn't actually address the problems the profession has. That might fix a handful of builds but it leaves anything not directly related to those additional conditions languishing, therefore, reducing the number of viable builds.

  • elementalist

    Ele.
    The only profession that demands to spec a myriad of stats and still relies heavily on 2 traitlines to have sustain.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    necro

    @scerevisiae.1972 said:
    Core ranger is super kitten. The pet is horrible, everything about it is horrible. Pet AI is bad, pet abilities are slow and the vast majority of abilities ineffectual.
    Traps are really weak and limited because of no range, shouts are super kitten, spirits are super kitten, signets are meh, and survival skills are more or less mandatory because they're the only condi cleanse.

    Most of the weapons are quite good but literally 3/4s of core ranger is total kitten.

    I don't think any of the other classes are anywhere near as bad as core ranger.

    Ever tried core necro? xD

  • messiah.1908messiah.1908 Member ✭✭✭✭
    revenant

    rev for sure as this is the only class without a core build...

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    necro

    @messiah.1908 said:
    rev for sure as this is the only class without a core build...

    Wait what?
    What gamemode are you referring to?

    In pve, ranger, mesmer, necro don't have very good core builds right now
    And for PvP and wvw that's even more classes, as I would add engineer

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2018

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Tehologist.5841 said:
    Kits should not be forced upon us, should have weapon swap and more than 3 weapons. Kits are not a mechanic, they are only an optional utility skill, the mechanic is toolbelt and weapons don’t impact it. I don’t buy the excuse of not having weapon swap because of optional utilities.

    You don't have to buy it but that is the reason Engineer doesn't have weapon swap. It is already possible for Engineer to run with more weapon skills at a time than any other profession, save Elementalist. If Kits weren't so lackluster this really wouldn't be an issue.

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    A very close second id say would be revenant who needs all their weapons to get the trident treatment, followed by necromancer.

    The trident thing is just a bad idea that shouldn't be extended to the rest of Revenant.

    Why’s the trident thing a bad idea? Revenants literally begged for that functionality on all their weapons back in HoT.

    Well, it doesn't actually fix a problem and I prefer fixing problems as opposed to just giving the illusion that you are addressing a problem. Perhaps people begged for it back in HoT but now that we have seen it in action we know that it doesn't benefit us. It is either lackluster and useless (Shiro and Jalis) or slanted and makes it clear that only specific Legends are worth running (Glint and Mallyx). It doesn't really add support elements to Revenant play (but would be taken into consideration when developing additional mechanics) and Revenant would be better off addressing issues between traits and abilities than trying to just tack on a bunch of conditions.

    so because their first implementation wasn't perfect the whole concept should be thrown out

    and the changes doesn't exclusively have to be condi's

    also the issue it's addressing is the common complaint that rev seems unfinished, that it's lacking something.

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Nath Forge Tempete.1645Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2018
    elementalist

    I would totally like a weapon rework for ele !

    I think... it would be better for the ele to have a role more defined by the weapon they choose instead of the attunement they are on . Which is more the case now.

    Basically only offhand weapons have a SPECIFIC role (kinda)

    • Focus : more of a defensive aspect (less true now with detonating fire aura + lignthing rod)
    • Dagger : pure AOE CC and damage basically.
    • Warhorn : support Boon , healing and CC. low damage.

    But the main weapons and STAFF are too versatile (dagger was kinda but sword outclassed it)

    For me, warhorn needs to be more specialized in air and earth into CC- support that it is now . Air warhorn skills should be AOE targeted instead of going in one direction:

    • Air 4 : same as firebrand pull in courage tome (with wind animations ofc)
    • Air 5 : putting an orb and fireing ligthing in the area location (projectiles) => same mechanics but in a non mobile area.

    • earth 5 : basically not usefull at all ... basically the worst warhorn skill. A soft CC such as a dust wind around you for 1 hit that blinds and or daze for 1 sec? dunno honestly haha was more thinking of a melee defense against rushers.

    Conclusion : rework dagger main hand and staff skills and redefined their role more would be (imo) a good aspect to improve core ele :)

    PS : Warhorn is tempest not core but i needed to talk about it ahaha

  • messiah.1908messiah.1908 Member ✭✭✭✭
    revenant

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @messiah.1908 said:
    rev for sure as this is the only class without a core build...

    Wait what?
    What gamemode are you referring to?

    In pve, ranger, mesmer, necro don't have very good core builds right now
    And for PvP and wvw that's even more classes, as I would add engineer

    rev is the only class that design to work with elite herald and without core trait lines. all other class have core build which might be subpar but rev has none.

  • ranger

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @scerevisiae.1972 said:
    Core ranger is super kitten. The pet is horrible, everything about it is horrible. Pet AI is bad, pet abilities are slow and the vast majority of abilities ineffectual.
    Traps are really weak and limited because of no range, shouts are super kitten, spirits are super kitten, signets are meh, and survival skills are more or less mandatory because they're the only condi cleanse.

    Most of the weapons are quite good but literally 3/4s of core ranger is total kitten.

    I don't think any of the other classes are anywhere near as bad as core ranger.

    Ever tried core necro? xD

    I have 1 of every class, and 2 necros. I main necro. I still say core ranger is the worst, easily.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2018
    necro

    @scerevisiae.1972 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @scerevisiae.1972 said:
    Core ranger is super kitten. The pet is horrible, everything about it is horrible. Pet AI is bad, pet abilities are slow and the vast majority of abilities ineffectual.
    Traps are really weak and limited because of no range, shouts are super kitten, spirits are super kitten, signets are meh, and survival skills are more or less mandatory because they're the only condi cleanse.

    Most of the weapons are quite good but literally 3/4s of core ranger is total kitten.

    I don't think any of the other classes are anywhere near as bad as core ranger.

    Ever tried core necro? xD

    I have 1 of every class, and 2 necros. I main necro. I still say core ranger is the worst, easily.

    Ok sure
    Up to you ;)

    I know someone who also said, that core ranger was bad. I told him to play core necro.
    First he found it great, after 2 weeks, he asked me how necro can be worse than ranger xD

  • Catchyfx.5768Catchyfx.5768 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2018
    necro

    @messiah.1908 said:

    rev is the only class that design to work with elite herald and without core trait lines. all other class have core build which might be subpar but rev has none.

    This. If you try it you clearly see that core and Herald came in the same time and Herald(Glint legend) is something like Invocation traitline you just need it for quality of life.

    Jokaurene

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Tehologist.5841 said:
    Kits should not be forced upon us, should have weapon swap and more than 3 weapons. Kits are not a mechanic, they are only an optional utility skill, the mechanic is toolbelt and weapons don’t impact it. I don’t buy the excuse of not having weapon swap because of optional utilities.

    You don't have to buy it but that is the reason Engineer doesn't have weapon swap. It is already possible for Engineer to run with more weapon skills at a time than any other profession, save Elementalist. If Kits weren't so lackluster this really wouldn't be an issue.

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    A very close second id say would be revenant who needs all their weapons to get the trident treatment, followed by necromancer.

    The trident thing is just a bad idea that shouldn't be extended to the rest of Revenant.

    Why’s the trident thing a bad idea? Revenants literally begged for that functionality on all their weapons back in HoT.

    Well, it doesn't actually fix a problem and I prefer fixing problems as opposed to just giving the illusion that you are addressing a problem. Perhaps people begged for it back in HoT but now that we have seen it in action we know that it doesn't benefit us. It is either lackluster and useless (Shiro and Jalis) or slanted and makes it clear that only specific Legends are worth running (Glint and Mallyx). It doesn't really add support elements to Revenant play (but would be taken into consideration when developing additional mechanics) and Revenant would be better off addressing issues between traits and abilities than trying to just tack on a bunch of conditions.

    so because their first implementation wasn't perfect the whole concept should be thrown out

    and the changes doesn't exclusively have to be condi's

    also the issue it's addressing is the common complaint that rev seems unfinished, that it's lacking something.

    Actually, their first implementation highlighted why it is a bad idea. The fact that it wasn't perfect is immaterial to the fact that now that we see what it might look like it's easier to see that this is not a good fix for Revenant. Changing the bonus from condi to something else doesn't remove any of the issues I listed. Whatever bonus you apply you are going to narrow the field of focus for each Legend which in turn limits the number of viable builds said Legend would be good at. You are still, invariably, going to have some bonuses that are clearly better than others, which again, will cause a narrowing of build diversity as future builds focus themselves around the traits that are worthwhile. Since Revenant cannot mix and match utilities, which is typically how other professions help create build diversity, any fix that further focuses a Legend down a specific road will in turn limit viable builds support by the Legend. I am 100% ok with how Revenant utilities work. I just do not support ideas that will cause fewer builds. This, also, does nothing to address the complaint that Revenant seems unfinished. Yes, it lacks something. This is not that something though.

  • ranger

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:

    @messiah.1908 said:

    rev is the only class that design to work with elite herald and without core trait lines. all other class have core build which might be subpar but rev has none.

    This. If you try it you clearly see that core and Herald came in the same time and Herald(Glint legend) is something like Invocation traitline you just need it for quality of life.

    actually core rev is not bad at all -- try shiro + mallyx / hammer + S/S, marauder armour, cavalier trinkets, grieving or zerker weapons, invocation/retribution/corruption. Does a lot of damage in WVW and is very survivable because of high resistance and stability uptime, and shiro evades/teleports.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    thief

    The only justification for necro reworks is that the needs of PvP and PvE elitism clash. When it's strong in PvP it's weak in optimized raid speedrun PvE because of how shroud works. Anything ANet does to necro and shroud will butcher necro in one of the respective modes and make it either a stronger/weaker copy of another profession or downright worthless.

    Thief warrants the rework more on the basis that it's got a lot of problems that have little implications for major change.

    • Almost half of thief's weapon sets are junk and more than one of its traitlines are really niche which makes them overperform or suck.
    • There are too many hard-dependencies on specific traits for base functionality, notably things like Preparedness and SoH's steal CDR.
    • Deadeye still needs more revision and can't really be balanced as-is from a concept perspective.
    • The most effective builds are generally exploitative and not fun to play against because the foundation of the class can't handle the current game-state as it wasn't designed to deal with this level of powercreep, and even if they nerfed everything into oblivion (as ANet should but clearly has no interest in doing), it wouldn't change the above.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    The only justification for necro reworks is that the needs of PvP and PvE elitism clash. When it's strong in PvP it's weak in optimized raid speedrun PvE because of how shroud works. Anything ANet does to necro and shroud will butcher necro in one of the respective modes and make it either a stronger/weaker copy of another profession or downright worthless.

    Thief warrants the rework more on the basis that it's got a lot of problems that have little implications for major change.

    • Almost half of thief's weapon sets are junk and more than one of its traitlines are really niche which makes them overperform or suck.
    • There are too many hard-dependencies on specific traits for base functionality, notably things like Preparedness and SoH's steal CDR.
    • Deadeye still needs more revision and can't really be balanced as-is from a concept perspective.
    • The most effective builds are generally exploitative and not fun to play against because the foundation of the class can't handle the current game-state as it wasn't designed to deal with this level of powercreep, and even if they nerfed everything into oblivion (as ANet should but clearly has no interest in doing), it wouldn't change the above.

    I totally agree with you. Thief’s signature survival and attack skills revolve around its stealth, which due to its nature tend to perceived by others “overpowered”, “annoying” and cause a lot of hate.

    But as obnoxious as it can be, thief is actually quite underperforming compared to other classes.
    In PvP and WvW, thief’s contribution to winning the game is pathetic unless you are one of the top skilled thief players. But if equal skilled player plays different class, he/she can contribute to the team winning much more.
    Only thing thief have left is a gimmick DE build that is causing a lot of hate toward the class.
    Because of the community outcry for such a broken build, if Anet nerf the class without re-working the thief as a whole, it will cripple the class.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As I have said many times, I will never get why people fight to be perceived as the worst or most underpowered profession in a game.

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭
    necro

    @Dace.8173 said:
    As I have said many times, I will never get why people fight to be perceived as the worst or most underpowered profession in a game.

    Partially to avoid nerfs, partially to get buffs

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    As I have said many times, I will never get why people fight to be perceived as the worst or most underpowered profession in a game.

    Partially to avoid nerfs, partially to get buffs

    Considering Necromancer's history of buffs and nerfs I would argue that being considered the worst in the game hasn't done much for them.

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭
    necro

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    As I have said many times, I will never get why people fight to be perceived as the worst or most underpowered profession in a game.

    Partially to avoid nerfs, partially to get buffs

    Considering Necromancer's history of buffs and nerfs I would argue that being considered the worst in the game hasn't done much for them.

    They're only considered the worst in instanced pve though. Necros receive alot of "op nerf pls" in pvp/wvw

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2018
    thief

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    As I have said many times, I will never get why people fight to be perceived as the worst or most underpowered profession in a game.

    @Dace.8173 Because time is also a limited resource. ANet can only do so much, and over the past six years not much has really changed. The most profound was the ranger CDI. Which was incredibly successful as a whole and made ranger go from unplayable and useless almost everywhere to a very strong class.

    Partially to avoid nerfs, partially to get buffs

    Considering Necromancer's history of buffs and nerfs I would argue that being considered the worst in the game hasn't done much for them.

    They're only considered the worst in instanced pve though. Necros receive alot of "op nerf pls" in pvp/wvw

    And that's the thing - the only thing a necro has historically ever been downright weak at is raw DPS.
    And it's been necessary because as soon as they start having the damage of other classes you end up with the WvW scenario where necros/scourges outnumber everything else 4:1 like they did.
    Most of the imbalances with necro in PvE are a mindset issue with damage optimization made by the community, and that some game-specific numerical tweaks and encounter design changes could buff them massively specifically for PvE. Notably, LF generation via weapon skills and the cooldown on shroud. Increasing LF generation and decreasing the shroud timer would make the class a better sustain tank like it's supposed to be while opting for more damage than a dedicated tank. Put boon spam on the boss and make corrupts more potent for PvE and all of a sudden the class is golden while not overtuned in the PvE modes where its raw damage potential can remain lower and the overall playstyle of sustaining via shroud doesn't change much.

    Then the class still abides by its vision, too.

    Thief on the other hand... it's just incompatible with the rest of the game with a lot of problematic design all over the place and there's no way to adjust game modes to resolve its problems, either. Stealth, Initiative, Dual Skills, trait lines, playstyles, and Steal all need changes. Almost nothing about the class description is true anymore. Its playstyle is loaded with unfixable gimmicks and it only performs truly well in the hands of what's probably only a few dozen people in the game.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2018
    necro

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    As I have said many times, I will never get why people fight to be perceived as the worst or most underpowered profession in a game.

    @Dace.8173 Because time is also a limited resource. ANet can only do so much, and over the past six years not much has really changed. The most profound was the ranger CDI. Which was incredibly successful as a whole and made ranger go from unplayable and useless almost everywhere to a very strong class.

    Partially to avoid nerfs, partially to get buffs

    Considering Necromancer's history of buffs and nerfs I would argue that being considered the worst in the game hasn't done much for them.

    They're only considered the worst in instanced pve though. Necros receive alot of "op nerf pls" in pvp/wvw

    And that's the thing - the only thing a necro has historically ever been downright weak at is raw DPS.
    And it's been necessary because as soon as they start having the damage of other classes you end up with the WvW scenario where necros/scourges outnumber everything else 4:1 like they did.
    Most of the imbalances with necro in PvE are a mindset issue with damage optimization made by the community, and that some game-specific numerical tweaks and encounter design changes could buff them massively specifically for PvE. Notably, LF generation via weapon skills and the cooldown on shroud. Increasing LF generation and decreasing the shroud timer would make the class a better sustain tank like it's supposed to be while opting for more damage than a dedicated tank. Put boon spam on the boss and make corrupts more potent for PvE and all of a sudden the class is golden while not overtuned in the PvE modes where its raw damage potential can remain lower and the overall playstyle of sustaining via shroud doesn't change much.

    Then the class still abides by its vision, too.

    Thief on the other hand... it's just incompatible with the rest of the game with a lot of problematic design all over the place and there's no way to adjust game modes to resolve its problems, either. Stealth, Initiative, Dual Skills, trait lines, playstyles, and Steal all need changes. Almost nothing about the class description is true anymore. Its playstyle is loaded with unfixable gimmicks and it only performs truly well in the hands of what's probably only a few dozen people in the game.

    I disagee about the boons on bosses part. Most of the boon corrupt into rather useless boons for 3 reasons: 1. The boss has a defiance bar making condis like blind weakness and slow useless. 2. Other classes are already perma stacking those condis. And 3: spellbreaker and mes can boon rip better with the former gaining dps from doing so.

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2018
    thief

    I'm saying that the act of boon corruption should be buffed in PvE-only and that more boons should be utilized as means to allow for corruption. Boon stripping denies them better, yes, but turning those boons into enough damage makes stripping them not worthwhile which gives the necro a role it has in WvW and the PvP modes. Stripping is potent; corruption is lethal.

    For example, if in PvE vigor would corrupt to 20 stacks of bleed and bosses had a lot of vigor to corrupt, necro's damage contributions and the value of corruption vs boon strip would massively favor the necro. Nothing needs to change at all as far as skills or what they do. Nothing for the cost of LF, shroud decay rate, etc. Even with a power build, there's a lot of condition damage to be gained with 25 might and lots of corruption.

    It'd also be good for PvE encounters to simulate PvP - like bosses just having tons of stability and resistance, animations affected by quickness/slow, cooldowns on chill/alacrity, one-shotting players, dodging major skills, etc. - where necros shine the most since they have so much battlefield control, but that's a whole other subject.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Iozeph.5617Iozeph.5617 Member ✭✭✭
    engineer

    Core Engineer but it won't bloody happen because Scrapper and Holosmith.

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2018
    necro

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    I'm saying that the act of boon corruption should be buffed in PvE-only and that more boons should be utilized as means to allow for corruption. Boon stripping denies them better, yes, but turning those boons into enough damage makes stripping them not worthwhile which gives the necro a role it has in WvW and the PvP modes. Stripping is potent; corruption is lethal.

    For example, if in PvE vigor would corrupt to 20 stacks of bleed and bosses had a lot of vigor to corrupt, necro's damage contributions and the value of corruption vs boon strip would massively favor the necro. Nothing needs to change at all as far as skills or what they do. Nothing for the cost of LF, shroud decay rate, etc. Even with a power build, there's a lot of condition damage to be gained with 25 might and lots of corruption.

    Possible, but unlikely. That would necessitate limiting the types of boons a boss would have to ones that corrupt into damaging ones, or the corrupt will eat a prot/stab and you end up with no dps gain. Also that can't be on all bosses or necro will join druid mes and war leaving us with 4 mandatory classes on all bosses, and people have been trying to get rid if those 3. I'd much rather see necro get reworked.

    It'd also be good for PvE encounters to simulate PvP - like bosses just having tons of stability and resistance, animations affected by quickness/slow, cooldowns on chill/alacrity, one-shotting players, dodging major skills, etc. - where necros shine the most since they have so much battlefield control, but that's a whole other subject.

    Most pvers dont want to simulate pvp in their instances though. Also what use would a boss have for stab? They're already immune to all ccs unless their defiance breaks, which is usually only open to damage when they do a mechanic that wipes the group if it fails.

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    As I have said many times, I will never get why people fight to be perceived as the worst or most underpowered profession in a game.

    @Dace.8173 Because time is also a limited resource. ANet can only do so much, and over the past six years not much has really changed. The most profound was the ranger CDI. Which was incredibly successful as a whole and made ranger go from unplayable and useless almost everywhere to a very strong class.

    Partially to avoid nerfs, partially to get buffs

    Considering Necromancer's history of buffs and nerfs I would argue that being considered the worst in the game hasn't done much for them.

    They're only considered the worst in instanced pve though. Necros receive alot of "op nerf pls" in pvp/wvw

    And that's the thing - the only thing a necro has historically ever been downright weak at is raw DPS.
    And it's been necessary because as soon as they start having the damage of other classes you end up with the WvW scenario where necros/scourges outnumber everything else 4:1 like they did.
    Most of the imbalances with necro in PvE are a mindset issue with damage optimization made by the community, and that some game-specific numerical tweaks and encounter design changes could buff them massively specifically for PvE. Notably, LF generation via weapon skills and the cooldown on shroud. Increasing LF generation and decreasing the shroud timer would make the class a better sustain tank like it's supposed to be while opting for more damage than a dedicated tank. Put boon spam on the boss and make corrupts more potent for PvE and all of a sudden the class is golden while not overtuned in the PvE modes where its raw damage potential can remain lower and the overall playstyle of sustaining via shroud doesn't change much.

    Then the class still abides by its vision, too.

    Thief on the other hand... it's just incompatible with the rest of the game with a lot of problematic design all over the place and there's no way to adjust game modes to resolve its problems, either. Stealth, Initiative, Dual Skills, trait lines, playstyles, and Steal all need changes. Almost nothing about the class description is true anymore. Its playstyle is loaded with unfixable gimmicks and it only performs truly well in the hands of what's probably only a few dozen people in the game.

    I think you would find a sizeable group of non-Theif players who disagree with the idea that only a few dozen people are truly good with the profession.

  • Undertow.2389Undertow.2389 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2018
    guardian

    I voted guardian not because it's horribly weak or anything, just that core guardian virtues are (IMO) easily the most boring, almost non-existent, class mechanic of them all. Dragonhunter spices them up a little bit and firebrand makes them fine, but core is just /yawn, especially from a pve perspective.

  • engineer

    @Undertow.2389 said:
    I voted guardian not because it's horribly weak or anything, just that core guardian virtues are (IMO) easily the most boring, almost non-existent, class mechanic of them all. Dragonhunter spices them up a little bit and firebrand makes them fine, but core is just /yawn, especially from a pve perspective.

    Agreed. Virtues are essentially glorified signets. Tomes should be core with different skills depending on elite spec.

    I picked engineer for similar reasons. Toolbelt skills are just split effects of utility skills. We get to press more buttons to have the same effects. Yay... Kits really should be the profession mechanic.

  • engineer

    I would put revenant in the same boat. Core has nothing going for it, and elites have no direction. Give revenant avatars like gw1 dervish.

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