Can WvW server be made not pay to win. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Can WvW server be made not pay to win.

For WvW the expansions are essentially only needed to get access to class skills that are OP compared to the standard class. This can be described as "PAY TO WIN" because you pay for the expansion and you are much more likely to win against a non-expansion class. You can try to argue otherwise, but that is the truth of it.

So let me ask. What do we get as a WvW player when an expansion comes out? I only play WvW or very occasionally PVP. So you can ask the same question about PVP.

I actually paid for the original game. Its free now... But if I were to have not bought the game and supported the company back then and bought it now...I'd have the expansion.
So you are throwing away your base and require money just to stay relevant.

The "upgrades" for the person who already bought the game are really downgrades because all of their characters are now inferior..."but you can pay...um oh yeah...to win.".

So this could be fixed easily by simply turning on expansion classes in WvW. OR making 1 "classic" server. Classic server would be no-desert maps. The water back in the center. Old mechanics. Travelers needed for golems.

Basically back when the game was good.

Lastly the WvW population is almost NONE of the important population we keep being told. That is why it isn't actively supported. So giving free access to class expansions in WvW isn't losing anything is it? You don't want to pay for this? I'll do it for you for free. Sign an NDA and spend a week making the change. If you think it would take longer than that then either:

1.) You need cleaner code.
2.) You need better programmers.
Possibly both...as 2 causes 1 to not occur.

Best Answers

<1345

Answers

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    mmm...

    save money, buy expansion.

    =)

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • No...this is rewarding bad behavior

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i wonder if there way to buy expansions thru gems.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Several core classes are becoming much more viable. Of course that depends on how you WvW. But, yes, having the expansions opens more...,, content.

  • So you might get the feeling that I'm frustrated and dying a bunch. Well its true. But what is a bunch for me? Once an hour. Used to be once 4 hours. Why am I dying more now. Well I used to be able to compete against a good player and win most of the time. If I couldn't win I'd at least survive. Now however a ranger has 3 invisibility skills. How many does my base one have? One. Do I hit harder because of less skills? Nope. Do I have more heals? Nope he does? What about movement skills. Again he has way better ones.

    Well thats just rangers...NOPE...

    thief..same have 2
    mesmer...same have 2
    warriar...same have 1
    Guardian...same have 1
    engineer...same have 2
    elementalist have 1

    So you see I'm not some noob that is getting owned and crying. There are REAL problems. Don't believe me or disagree? Roll a base class and post your unedited 4 hours session. It will be a target fest most likely or a structure hugging event.

  • 2 rangers also

  • @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Skeletor.9360 said:
    So you might get the feeling that I'm frustrated and dying a bunch. Well its true. But what is a bunch for me? Once an hour. Used to be once 4 hours. Why am I dying more now. Well I used to be able to compete against a good player and win most of the time. If I couldn't win I'd at least survive. Now however a ranger has 3 invisibility skills. How many does my base one have? One. Do I hit harder because of less skills? Nope. Do I have more heals? Nope he does? What about movement skills. Again he has way better ones.

    Well thats just rangers...NOPE...

    thief..same have 2
    mesmer...same have 2
    warriar...same have 1
    Guardian...same have 1
    engineer...same have 2
    elementalist have 1

    So you see I'm not some noob that is getting owned and crying. There are REAL problems. Don't believe me or disagree? Roll a base class and post your unedited 4 hours session. It will be a target fest most likely or a structure hugging event.

    Actually, I was thinking you haven't play in a while, came back and found you didn't know how to fight the new classes

    This is largely true because I have no access to the skills on my own toons...so I can only guess what they did or spend hours researching builds and imagining how they can be used. In fact the class design is so bad I thought for sure people were hacking. I send them a tell and they point me at something completely ridiculously OP.

    Further because of this I have no idea what a hack looks like. Yesterday I tried to kill the new thief derivative in a circle at a camp. Tried and tried for a couple minutes on an alt "free" account using a thief. (I win most fights on my free account thief BTW.) With this character I did not hit her once. She repeated a skill over and over that prevented me from hitting her. ...probably repeated the skill 50 times... Finally I just left and she laughed at me. Hack or expansion skill...no idea.

    Not allowing full access to the expansion classes in WvW creates many more problems for ANET than the few bucks it makes off me.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    you cant win all the time =)

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • You don't have access in any gamemode, where most of the meta revolves around the newer specs. You have HoT - so you have access to Chrono, still meta in modes, still has a place in WvW. Tempest support does okay in WvW. Daredevil same. Support Scrapper was buffed. Herald still rules. You have a lot of options, you seem to be ignoring them. Or you know, spend like $20 when it's on sale and get PoF.

  • Blodeuyn.2751Blodeuyn.2751 Member ✭✭✭

    I see no problem with the current model, though I do understand your frustration (I play Tempest and prefer HoT over PoF classes myself). Pick up the expansions when they go on sale or run with others in voice chat so they can explain the new classes.

    Abusing a game mechanic to whisper enemies will most likely only get you salt. Have you posted in the class forums?

    Blodeuyn Tylwyth
    Quaggan OP [QOP], League of Extraordinary Siegers [LEXS]

  • Mokk.2397Mokk.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    Although the expansions do give an advantage .its not one sided by server.What is an obvious but little noticed pay to win is the over stacking of servers with the transfer costs payed buy gems. I have always insisted that the number transfers should have be limited by account over a period of time and that time should be increased for each transfer made.Unless that is addressed, transfers to over stack servers is just another form of pay to win.But who knows with the changes coming up how this might be resolved.

  • Core warrior wins plenty of 1v1 fights. So do core thief and mes. Core guardian is also a quite viable roamer if you build right. Core ele is still useful in zergs. There are viable options without buying expansions.
    If you choose to build and gear poorly, that's on you. If you choose not to learn how to play your classes, that's also on you.

    REDUCE NA TO 3 TIERS

  • Kaiser.9873Kaiser.9873 Member ✭✭✭

    Classes you can play owning core or HoT versions of the game that are still good/meta/competitive.

    Roaming: Cores/HoT- Warrior-core, Mesmer-chrono, Thief-DD, Guard-either, Necro-Reaper
    Zerging: Cores/HoT- Ele-either, Guard-either(Though FB is much better), Warrior-core, Mesmer-chrono, maybe could squeeze Reaper in here as well depending on comp.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?

    Kind of bad argument. Other developers make horrible decisions so it's ok. :)

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • Ni In.6578Ni In.6578 Member ✭✭✭

    Chrono, Revenant are still meta. Power Reaper is also extremely attractive in zergs. You have HoT. Problem solved.

    [VII] Desert Spectre - Declared Best NA Guild by Grimaldi
    Crystal Desert Consul Member and President of Scrubs; declared most toxic server NA by Z E Y
    [VII] wants fights! Please bring your pug rangers for UD progress.

  • Iris Ng.9845Iris Ng.9845 Member ✭✭✭

    The meta is changing at the alarming rate (not). Op can't stay the same and win forever. There isn't an Apex predator in the competitive mode. If you don't want to die, identify the threat and/or gtfo. Or maybe do eotm if you don't wish to see others with the elite specs you don't have access to.

  • The meaning of what p2w is has been lost with the new age of gamers. This game is indeed, p2w as it is currently. Regardless of if a player can win with a core class or not. When stacked side by side with a elite specialization if there is a marginal difference in power/effectiveness then that is the definition of p2w.

    Anet knows this, which is why class balance is in its current state where PoF classes are powercreeped. Same with HoT classes when they first rolled out.

    Current model as is. New expansion (Powercreep classes) -> Odd balance decisions to act as if there doing something with the feedback -> New expansion comes(Nerf previous expansion classes, powercreep the new ones).

    Hell look at scourge on beta weekend when servers were running it in mass. Biggest example of p2w.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ... some players are just skillful on any spec. you just got to figure the proper setup.

    a build good on pof, gear and weaponset may not be good with base. and vice versa.

    also, the game changes over time, if you limit self on core game, you have the core areas. you still can do wvw and enjoy. but if u want the whole shebang, which is pof and hot, you got to pay for it.

    i doubt anet ppl are living on stock invesment.

    on that note, maybe anet can have options where players can buy expansion via gems?

    i mean people buying gems = money, gold buying gems equals players trading for thems from people who bought gems with money.

    it is a win win.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭

    @Iris Ng.9845 said:
    The meta is changing at the alarming rate (not). Op can't stay the same and win forever. There isn't an Apex predator in the competitive mode. If you don't want to die, identify the threat and/or gtfo. Or maybe do eotm if you don't wish to see others with the elite specs you don't have access to.

    What!!!! You can only use vanilla specs in EotM? Holy kitten anet. That is awesome.

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?

    Wow has level brackets for battleground pvp, or max level for arena, and they also have the new open world pvp mode which has level scaling.
    A person without an expansion won't be playing into the new expansion levels, with those that do.
    They also revamp classes from top to bottom which everyone has access to, not just add separate specs that only expansion people have access to.
    Unlike gw2 which allows everyone free/core/hot/pof to join wvw and spvp in one massive pool of players, which in turn allows the new specs which are usually overtuned, to be dominating, which in turn makes anyone without the latest expansion to call it p2w.

    Another derailing post. ^^
    EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Idk, people who can't even play any new content that comes out really aren't the demographic I'd worry about

    Smugly chuckling forever.
    My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2018

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:
    The meaning of what p2w is has been lost with the new age of gamers. This game is indeed, p2w as it is currently. Regardless of if a player can win with a core class or not. When stacked side by side with a elite specialization if there is a marginal difference in power/effectiveness then that is the definition of p2w.

    Anet knows this, which is why class balance is in its current state where PoF classes are powercreeped. Same with HoT classes when they first rolled out.

    Current model as is. New expansion (Powercreep classes) -> Odd balance decisions to act as if there doing something with the feedback -> New expansion comes(Nerf previous expansion classes, powercreep the new ones).

    Hell look at scourge on beta weekend when servers were running it in mass. Biggest example of p2w.

    to balance core with elite spec, core would also need exclusive elements in their builds. a traitline, weapon and utility set. but then you also would need to force core to pick that specific traitline. that would be a huge rework todo as it would require many adjustments to core and elite specs - therefore i think it is unrealistic.
    but people would still buy the expensions even if they are just as strong as core overall, because it would be more options. more options means you can better adjust for a specific situation.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭

    For example they could let vanilla ele be good at something, but no. Weaver have to do most dmg every weapon, have better skills, better defense and so on.

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Would understand if people complained about a "Premium System". Something along the lines of forcing you to spend a continuous amount of money equal to a subscription or more likely double or tripple that amount (something I have seen in truely F2P games) but these complaints about having to buy a cheap expansion? An expansion that comes with so many additions? Come on...

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • 1.) You need cleaner code.
    2.) You need better programmers.

    That's what players in any game say when they dislike something :lol:
    On a serious note, this is a b2p game, what have you expected? In most cases such games have expansions that come out once in a while, and you need to buy them for extra content. By the way, if you're a casual player, that doesn't get bored with the regular content, so you don't want to buy expansions, you don't have to be the meta in WvW ;) Leave it to hardcore players that strive for the glory.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2018

    money, if not available, means you need to figure a way to generate irl cash so your cash will always > than your total expense. =)

    if you have some extra, save and a portion of that invest. and the rest, maybe spend a bit on your games.

    buy if you truly believe that gw2 should be free, because anet also needs to feed themselves, it may not be realisitic.

    income over expense or i/e > 1.01 atleast. then discipline yourself to increase by .01 or 1% at a time. i bet you can do 20% savings after all your expenses.

    if you dont have income, then probably it is time to find work. hehe. cant enjoy games if u dont got salary

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skeletor.9360 said:
    No...this is rewarding bad behavior

    That's what most of gw2 players are here for LOL.

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:
    The meaning of what p2w is has been lost with the new age of gamers. This game is indeed, p2w as it is currently. Regardless of if a player can win with a core class or not. When stacked side by side with a elite specialization if there is a marginal difference in power/effectiveness then that is the definition of p2w.

    Anet knows this, which is why class balance is in its current state where PoF classes are powercreeped. Same with HoT classes when they first rolled out.

    Current model as is. New expansion (Powercreep classes) -> Odd balance decisions to act as if there doing something with the feedback -> New expansion comes(Nerf previous expansion classes, powercreep the new ones).

    Hell look at scourge on beta weekend when servers were running it in mass. Biggest example of p2w.

    But does it actually matter?

    No.

    For one thing, there is years between expansions. Compared to other games such as the Battlefield series, thats literally the eqvivalent of releasing a new game. No one is squeezing your wallet or turning you upside down to get every last dollar every month just to get you the latest stuff. You maybe call it p2w, I just call it an expansion. PoF is now GW2 the game, not GW2 vanilla version.

    Secondly, the f2p aspects of GW2 (ie GW2 vanilla) is basicly shareware. Its a demo. GW2 is not a f2p game, it was never intented like that. Its meant to get you interested, to get you hooked. To show you what GW2 the game (HoT+PoF) is for free so that you can tell your friends "hey look at this awesome game!" and not have them go "but I have to pay to test I dont wanna commit to a new MMO bwaaabwaaaabwaaa". But with this, you can take them to WvW and show them the game.

    Thirdly, if you keep insisting its p2w then sure, lets say its p2w then. That only means GW2 is the top 1 game with the best implementation of p2w ever for the customer. I'm sure we'll do ok.

    Kind of weird to say it doesn't matter when people reject those who dont run specific builds/setups. Or when you look at things like core engineer and see how boosted the elite specs are interms of potential with the current state of the game. In the end it actually does matter. Maybe it doesnt matter in PvE if you dont care for running the content, but in PvP and WvW, it makes all the difference.

    Gw2, top game... ehhh, wouldnt think so. But the mmo market is pretty kitten as it is, I would have to say warframe is actually the best implementation of p2w.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:
    The meaning of what p2w is has been lost with the new age of gamers. This game is indeed, p2w as it is currently. Regardless of if a player can win with a core class or not. When stacked side by side with a elite specialization if there is a marginal difference in power/effectiveness then that is the definition of p2w.

    Anet knows this, which is why class balance is in its current state where PoF classes are powercreeped. Same with HoT classes when they first rolled out.

    Current model as is. New expansion (Powercreep classes) -> Odd balance decisions to act as if there doing something with the feedback -> New expansion comes(Nerf previous expansion classes, powercreep the new ones).

    Hell look at scourge on beta weekend when servers were running it in mass. Biggest example of p2w.

    But does it actually matter?

    No.

    For one thing, there is years between expansions. Compared to other games such as the Battlefield series, thats literally the eqvivalent of releasing a new game. No one is squeezing your wallet or turning you upside down to get every last dollar every month just to get you the latest stuff. You maybe call it p2w, I just call it an expansion. PoF is now GW2 the game, not GW2 vanilla version.

    Secondly, the f2p aspects of GW2 (ie GW2 vanilla) is basicly shareware. Its a demo. GW2 is not a f2p game, it was never intented like that. Its meant to get you interested, to get you hooked. To show you what GW2 the game (HoT+PoF) is for free so that you can tell your friends "hey look at this awesome game!" and not have them go "but I have to pay to test I dont wanna commit to a new MMO bwaaabwaaaabwaaa". But with this, you can take them to WvW and show them the game.

    Thirdly, if you keep insisting its p2w then sure, lets say its p2w then. That only means GW2 is the top 1 game with the best implementation of p2w ever for the customer. I'm sure we'll do ok.

    Kind of weird to say it doesn't matter when people reject those who dont run specific builds/setups. Or when you look at things like core engineer and see how boosted the elite specs are interms of potential with the current state of the game. In the end it actually does matter. Maybe it doesnt matter in PvE if you dont care for running the content, but in PvP and WvW, it makes all the difference.

    Gw2, top game... ehhh, wouldnt think so. But the mmo market is pretty kitten as it is, I would have to say warframe is actually the best implementation of p2w.

    I think he meant that it is so good at p2w that we dont even notice

    Smugly chuckling forever.
    My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.

  • iKeostuKen.2738iKeostuKen.2738 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2018

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:
    The meaning of what p2w is has been lost with the new age of gamers. This game is indeed, p2w as it is currently. Regardless of if a player can win with a core class or not. When stacked side by side with a elite specialization if there is a marginal difference in power/effectiveness then that is the definition of p2w.

    Anet knows this, which is why class balance is in its current state where PoF classes are powercreeped. Same with HoT classes when they first rolled out.

    Current model as is. New expansion (Powercreep classes) -> Odd balance decisions to act as if there doing something with the feedback -> New expansion comes(Nerf previous expansion classes, powercreep the new ones).

    Hell look at scourge on beta weekend when servers were running it in mass. Biggest example of p2w.

    to balance core with elite spec, core would also need exclusive elements in their builds. a traitline, weapon and utility set. but then you also would need to force core to pick that specific traitline. that would be a huge rework todo as it would require many adjustments to core and elite specs - therefore i think it is unrealistic.
    but people would still buy the expensions even if they are just as strong as core overall, because it would be more options. more options means you can better adjust for a specific situation.

    Nah it would come with the design philosophy, you gain one but lose another. Whether its in functionality, a traitline thats exceptional to suvivability or damage or what have you. But you have classes that only gain without losing on anything, majority gaining far to much. A core dps spec shouldn't be getting another dps spec for their elite while gaining sustain. Same with a core spec thats good at sustain getting one that boost its sustain even more if it doesnt take a hit to its damage. It doesnt require core specs to be touched at all unless they are way under performing or have strange designs from years of neglect. Instead they should just rework how elite specs are implemented and designed.

    For example, Spellbreaker. Get rid of all the damage increase, gravitate their traitlines into specifically working with boons and conditions. Cleansing, gaining boons, etc. With Berserker it focuses more on Damage and dealing it to many in the form or condis or damage. while not having defensive options.

    More options yeah, thats what they should be, just options. Not complete upgrades in every aspect of the game.

  • @Blocki.4931 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:
    The meaning of what p2w is has been lost with the new age of gamers. This game is indeed, p2w as it is currently. Regardless of if a player can win with a core class or not. When stacked side by side with a elite specialization if there is a marginal difference in power/effectiveness then that is the definition of p2w.

    Anet knows this, which is why class balance is in its current state where PoF classes are powercreeped. Same with HoT classes when they first rolled out.

    Current model as is. New expansion (Powercreep classes) -> Odd balance decisions to act as if there doing something with the feedback -> New expansion comes(Nerf previous expansion classes, powercreep the new ones).

    Hell look at scourge on beta weekend when servers were running it in mass. Biggest example of p2w.

    But does it actually matter?

    No.

    For one thing, there is years between expansions. Compared to other games such as the Battlefield series, thats literally the eqvivalent of releasing a new game. No one is squeezing your wallet or turning you upside down to get every last dollar every month just to get you the latest stuff. You maybe call it p2w, I just call it an expansion. PoF is now GW2 the game, not GW2 vanilla version.

    Secondly, the f2p aspects of GW2 (ie GW2 vanilla) is basicly shareware. Its a demo. GW2 is not a f2p game, it was never intented like that. Its meant to get you interested, to get you hooked. To show you what GW2 the game (HoT+PoF) is for free so that you can tell your friends "hey look at this awesome game!" and not have them go "but I have to pay to test I dont wanna commit to a new MMO bwaaabwaaaabwaaa". But with this, you can take them to WvW and show them the game.

    Thirdly, if you keep insisting its p2w then sure, lets say its p2w then. That only means GW2 is the top 1 game with the best implementation of p2w ever for the customer. I'm sure we'll do ok.

    Kind of weird to say it doesn't matter when people reject those who dont run specific builds/setups. Or when you look at things like core engineer and see how boosted the elite specs are interms of potential with the current state of the game. In the end it actually does matter. Maybe it doesnt matter in PvE if you dont care for running the content, but in PvP and WvW, it makes all the difference.

    Gw2, top game... ehhh, wouldnt think so. But the mmo market is pretty kitten as it is, I would have to say warframe is actually the best implementation of p2w.

    I think he meant that it is so good at p2w that we dont even notice

    Many p2w game communities share that mentality. Should see the community on s4 league, thats a different brand of denial altogether.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:
    The meaning of what p2w is has been lost with the new age of gamers. This game is indeed, p2w as it is currently. Regardless of if a player can win with a core class or not. When stacked side by side with a elite specialization if there is a marginal difference in power/effectiveness then that is the definition of p2w.

    Anet knows this, which is why class balance is in its current state where PoF classes are powercreeped. Same with HoT classes when they first rolled out.

    Current model as is. New expansion (Powercreep classes) -> Odd balance decisions to act as if there doing something with the feedback -> New expansion comes(Nerf previous expansion classes, powercreep the new ones).

    Hell look at scourge on beta weekend when servers were running it in mass. Biggest example of p2w.

    to balance core with elite spec, core would also need exclusive elements in their builds. a traitline, weapon and utility set. but then you also would need to force core to pick that specific traitline. that would be a huge rework todo as it would require many adjustments to core and elite specs - therefore i think it is unrealistic.
    but people would still buy the expensions even if they are just as strong as core overall, because it would be more options. more options means you can better adjust for a specific situation.

    Nah it would come with the design philosophy, you gain one but lose another. Whether its in functionality, a traitline thats exceptional to suvivability or damage or what have you. But you have classes that only gain without losing on anything, majority gaining far to much. A core dps spec shouldn't be getting another dps spec for their elite while gaining sustain. Same with a core spec thats good at sustain getting one that boost its sustain even more if it doesnt take a hit to its damage. It doesnt require core specs to be touched at all unless they are way under performing or have strange designs from years of neglect. Instead they should just rework how elite specs are implemented and designed.

    For example, Spellbreaker. Get rid of all the damage increase, gravitate their traitlines into specifically working with boons and conditions. Cleansing, gaining boons, etc. With Berserker it focuses more on Damage and dealing it to many in the form or condis or damage. while not having defensive options.

    More options yeah, thats what they should be, just options. Not complete upgrades in every aspect of the game.

    i am not sure what exactly you want changed about the elite specs, your spellbreaker example really confused me. if you change it to a traitline that is all about boons and condis, then it will replace more or less defense and you will see more strength, discipline, spellbreaker with a ton of boons and condi cleanse? that doesnt mean that spellbreaker than would be weaker or in your eyes more in line with core. it would just be a little different.
    if there is nothing exclusive to core, then core can hardly excell in any single aspect.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • @MUDse.7623 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:
    The meaning of what p2w is has been lost with the new age of gamers. This game is indeed, p2w as it is currently. Regardless of if a player can win with a core class or not. When stacked side by side with a elite specialization if there is a marginal difference in power/effectiveness then that is the definition of p2w.

    Anet knows this, which is why class balance is in its current state where PoF classes are powercreeped. Same with HoT classes when they first rolled out.

    Current model as is. New expansion (Powercreep classes) -> Odd balance decisions to act as if there doing something with the feedback -> New expansion comes(Nerf previous expansion classes, powercreep the new ones).

    Hell look at scourge on beta weekend when servers were running it in mass. Biggest example of p2w.

    to balance core with elite spec, core would also need exclusive elements in their builds. a traitline, weapon and utility set. but then you also would need to force core to pick that specific traitline. that would be a huge rework todo as it would require many adjustments to core and elite specs - therefore i think it is unrealistic.
    but people would still buy the expensions even if they are just as strong as core overall, because it would be more options. more options means you can better adjust for a specific situation.

    Nah it would come with the design philosophy, you gain one but lose another. Whether its in functionality, a traitline thats exceptional to suvivability or damage or what have you. But you have classes that only gain without losing on anything, majority gaining far to much. A core dps spec shouldn't be getting another dps spec for their elite while gaining sustain. Same with a core spec thats good at sustain getting one that boost its sustain even more if it doesnt take a hit to its damage. It doesnt require core specs to be touched at all unless they are way under performing or have strange designs from years of neglect. Instead they should just rework how elite specs are implemented and designed.

    For example, Spellbreaker. Get rid of all the damage increase, gravitate their traitlines into specifically working with boons and conditions. Cleansing, gaining boons, etc. With Berserker it focuses more on Damage and dealing it to many in the form or condis or damage. while not having defensive options.

    More options yeah, thats what they should be, just options. Not complete upgrades in every aspect of the game.

    i am not sure what exactly you want changed about the elite specs, your spellbreaker example really confused me. if you change it to a traitline that is all about boons and condis, then it will replace more or less defense and you will see more strength, discipline, spellbreaker with a ton of boons and condi cleanse? that doesnt mean that spellbreaker than would be weaker or in your eyes more in line with core. it would just be a little different.
    if there is nothing exclusive to core, then core can hardly excell in any single aspect.

    With my example it would mean no damage modifiers. It should function on a specific role, control. The elite spec should be designed on controlling boons instead of gaining damage and burst potential from them since warriors already have a spec focused on damage which is berserker. Sadly SB excels in every category ingame aside from condition application. It has damage, sustain, control, its completely overtuned, basically a upgrade to core warrior, not much seen as a option. Do away with overtuned elite spec design would help kill the blatant p2w aspect.

    Basically what im saying is to design around having trade offs on deciding to pick up a elite spec:
    You want sustain, you lose damage.
    You want damage, you lose sustain.
    High single target effectiveness, lower aoe effectiveness.

    Its p2w because elite specs are clear upgrades to their core counterparts, they dont have a tradeoff, instead the elite specs are gaining instead of losing anything.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    example?

    my team runs pof. and we do feel that if we run sustain; we lose damage. if we run damage; we are squeezy.

    as per single target, there are really skills that does that vs ae.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2018

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:
    The meaning of what p2w is has been lost with the new age of gamers. This game is indeed, p2w as it is currently. Regardless of if a player can win with a core class or not. When stacked side by side with a elite specialization if there is a marginal difference in power/effectiveness then that is the definition of p2w.

    Anet knows this, which is why class balance is in its current state where PoF classes are powercreeped. Same with HoT classes when they first rolled out.

    Current model as is. New expansion (Powercreep classes) -> Odd balance decisions to act as if there doing something with the feedback -> New expansion comes(Nerf previous expansion classes, powercreep the new ones).

    Hell look at scourge on beta weekend when servers were running it in mass. Biggest example of p2w.

    But does it actually matter?

    No.

    For one thing, there is years between expansions. Compared to other games such as the Battlefield series, thats literally the eqvivalent of releasing a new game. No one is squeezing your wallet or turning you upside down to get every last dollar every month just to get you the latest stuff. You maybe call it p2w, I just call it an expansion. PoF is now GW2 the game, not GW2 vanilla version.

    Secondly, the f2p aspects of GW2 (ie GW2 vanilla) is basicly shareware. Its a demo. GW2 is not a f2p game, it was never intented like that. Its meant to get you interested, to get you hooked. To show you what GW2 the game (HoT+PoF) is for free so that you can tell your friends "hey look at this awesome game!" and not have them go "but I have to pay to test I dont wanna commit to a new MMO bwaaabwaaaabwaaa". But with this, you can take them to WvW and show them the game.

    Thirdly, if you keep insisting its p2w then sure, lets say its p2w then. That only means GW2 is the top 1 game with the best implementation of p2w ever for the customer. I'm sure we'll do ok.

    Kind of weird to say it doesn't matter when people reject those who dont run specific builds/setups. Or when you look at things like core engineer and see how boosted the elite specs are interms of potential with the current state of the game. In the end it actually does matter. Maybe it doesnt matter in PvE if you dont care for running the content, but in PvP and WvW, it makes all the difference.

    Gw2, top game... ehhh, wouldnt think so. But the mmo market is pretty kitten as it is, I would have to say warframe is actually the best implementation of p2w.

    Yeah so going to the Warframe page... looking at platinum purchases... Oh only $199 and you get 15% better reload speed and 1.2m punch through (wait is that supposed to be penetration?) for a shotgun, a +30m loot radar and +18m enemy radar and something that give you +15% sprint speed and +45% armor.

    How in the holy kitten is this any different from a GW2 expansion... wait in fact the two expansions for GW2 combined is just $50. That's a quarter of a cost of the "best" Warframe premium package - what does the one for $50 which gives you a whooping 1000 platinum actually get you ingame in Warframe, compared to two full GW2 expansions? Just wondering. I dont play Warframe. But I'm guessing those 1000 platinum gets you about as much as 1000 gems. Wait let me take a quick look. 2-3 of the Warframes out of 30ish I can see. That's all. For the price of two full GW2 expansions.

    So yeah. Surely, the "best".

    The meaning of p2w has been lost indeed.

  • Guild wars 2 has always been about how you play more than what you play. Someone with non-meta gear on a core profession could still beat someone with a meta build with meta gear. It largely depends on skill.

  • iKeostuKen.2738iKeostuKen.2738 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2018

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:
    The meaning of what p2w is has been lost with the new age of gamers. This game is indeed, p2w as it is currently. Regardless of if a player can win with a core class or not. When stacked side by side with a elite specialization if there is a marginal difference in power/effectiveness then that is the definition of p2w.

    Anet knows this, which is why class balance is in its current state where PoF classes are powercreeped. Same with HoT classes when they first rolled out.

    Current model as is. New expansion (Powercreep classes) -> Odd balance decisions to act as if there doing something with the feedback -> New expansion comes(Nerf previous expansion classes, powercreep the new ones).

    Hell look at scourge on beta weekend when servers were running it in mass. Biggest example of p2w.

    But does it actually matter?

    No.

    For one thing, there is years between expansions. Compared to other games such as the Battlefield series, thats literally the eqvivalent of releasing a new game. No one is squeezing your wallet or turning you upside down to get every last dollar every month just to get you the latest stuff. You maybe call it p2w, I just call it an expansion. PoF is now GW2 the game, not GW2 vanilla version.

    Secondly, the f2p aspects of GW2 (ie GW2 vanilla) is basicly shareware. Its a demo. GW2 is not a f2p game, it was never intented like that. Its meant to get you interested, to get you hooked. To show you what GW2 the game (HoT+PoF) is for free so that you can tell your friends "hey look at this awesome game!" and not have them go "but I have to pay to test I dont wanna commit to a new MMO bwaaabwaaaabwaaa". But with this, you can take them to WvW and show them the game.

    Thirdly, if you keep insisting its p2w then sure, lets say its p2w then. That only means GW2 is the top 1 game with the best implementation of p2w ever for the customer. I'm sure we'll do ok.

    Kind of weird to say it doesn't matter when people reject those who dont run specific builds/setups. Or when you look at things like core engineer and see how boosted the elite specs are interms of potential with the current state of the game. In the end it actually does matter. Maybe it doesnt matter in PvE if you dont care for running the content, but in PvP and WvW, it makes all the difference.

    Gw2, top game... ehhh, wouldnt think so. But the mmo market is pretty kitten as it is, I would have to say warframe is actually the best implementation of p2w.

    Yeah so going to the Warframe page... looking at platinum purchases... Oh only $199 and you get 15% better reload speed and 1.2m punch through (wait is that supposed to be penetration?) for a shotgun, a +30m loot radar and +18m enemy radar and something that give you +15% sprint speed and +45% armor.

    How in the holy kitten is this any different from a GW2 expansion... wait in fact the two expansions for GW2 combined is just $50. That's a quarter of a cost of the "best" Warframe premium package - what does the one for $50 which gives you a whooping 1000 platinum actually get you ingame in Warframe, compared to two full GW2 expansions? Just wondering. I dont play Warframe. But I'm guessing those 1000 platinum gets you about as much as 1000 gems. Wait let me take a quick look. 2-3 of the Warframes out of 30ish I can see. That's all. For the price of two full GW2 expansions.

    So yeah. Surely, the "best".

    The meaning of p2w has been lost indeed.

    Ummm... have you really ever played the game?
    1) No one really buys platinum unless they get a ingame code that reduces platinum purchases by 50% or more (75% being the highest). Which you have a chance everyday to receive.
    2) The trading market in the game allows you to purchase Prime parts to build a evolved version of your warframe. (Can be anywhere from 7 platinum->600 depending on how rare or if its still obtainable through other methods) Doesnt include the option of getting donated or trading prime parts for anything else.
    3) Prime frames while purchasable, can be obtained for free and/or through trading.
    4) Riven and prime mods are the better mods people would tend to run. What you are looking at is easy to obtain mods by simply doing a few missions in the game. And thats being extremly generous, this are mods you pick up and forget about in a instant because they are so common.

    With warframe, its not required you purchase anything as you can actually earn it all within the game. You can even farm and trade for platinum ingame, similar to Gw2 gemstore but it focuses more on community transactions to do this instead of being a legal goldselling option.

    If anything at first look, all of what you see is basically a rip off lol. But when you get into the game you will see the true value of what you can obtain with 1000 platinum. Best part is, its optional and only necessary if you are impatient and want to play things instantly. Thats why I say it has the best p2w system.

    With Gw2 you HAVE to actually pay for that boost.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Bandwagoning and stacking are also pay to win, you can't escape p2w in any games.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My answer to op is: not entirely. As long as there are paid expansions there will always be some degree of pay to win insofar as the xpac builds are usually more powerful than whatever was already in the game. Compared to most mmos though the cost is very small to stay competitive.

  • This would imply that if you bought an expansion that you are guaranteed to win.. but sadly this is not the case. There are some core professions out there that can still easily mop the floor with both HoT and PoF expansion classes. Core rangers for example can still tear apart reapers/scourges, heralds/renegades, dragon hunters/firebrands with ease. Even core mesmers could likely wipe the floor with nearly any class.

    Where exactly does a Rev fit into this theory on Pay to win? They were introduced in HoT, so in theory, even the basic rev build is likely to win against all other core classes?

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2018

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    This would imply that if you bought an expansion that you are guaranteed to win.. but sadly this is not the case. There are some core professions out there that can still easily mop the floor with both HoT and PoF expansion classes. Core rangers for example can still tear apart reapers/scourges, heralds/renegades, dragon hunters/firebrands with ease. Even core mesmers could likely wipe the floor with nearly any class.

    Where exactly does a Rev fit into this theory on Pay to win? They were introduced in HoT, so in theory, even the basic rev build is likely to win against all other core classes?

    I am sure he is not referring to skill but rather by design. Likewise, if is 1v1, mirage will beat your core mesmer by design.

    When people discuss about p2w, is always by design, nothing to do with individual standards.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • I am the Ranger you /w about this. That “fight” was just me running, juking, and somehow surviving that 5v1. It was luck.

    I’m not sure which one you were, but I thought you were the core thief. Many well played, zerked-to-the-gills core thief have embarrassed me in the past. Druid is strong but most our builds either can’t kill anything, or have simple counter tactics.

  • LaGranse.8652LaGranse.8652 Member ✭✭✭

    Not sure why people use the core warrior-spellbreaker comparison here. Sure spellbreaker deals a bit better with outnumbered fights cause of full counter procs however in a 1v1 a core warrior is much much scarier.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2018

    Eeeerm, you know the game is Buy 2 Play, right?

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    Wow has level brackets for battleground pvp, or max level for arena, and they also have the new open world pvp mode which has level scaling.
    A person without an expansion won't be playing into the new expansion levels, with those that do.
    They also revamp classes from top to bottom which everyone has access to, not just add separate specs that only expansion people have access to.
    Unlike gw2 which allows everyone free/core/hot/pof to join wvw and spvp in one massive pool of players, which in turn allows the new specs which are usually overtuned, to be dominating, which in turn makes anyone without the latest expansion to call it p2w.

    also wow has monthly subscription, so wow is p2w, if you don't pay subs, you can't play and you lose to those that can pay

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

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