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Can WvW server be made not pay to win.


Skeletor.9360

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For WvW the expansions are essentially only needed to get access to class skills that are OP compared to the standard class. This can be described as "PAY TO WIN" because you pay for the expansion and you are much more likely to win against a non-expansion class. You can try to argue otherwise, but that is the truth of it.

So let me ask. What do we get as a WvW player when an expansion comes out? I only play WvW or very occasionally PVP. So you can ask the same question about PVP.

I actually paid for the original game. Its free now... But if I were to have not bought the game and supported the company back then and bought it now...I'd have the expansion.So you are throwing away your base and require money just to stay relevant.

The "upgrades" for the person who already bought the game are really downgrades because all of their characters are now inferior..."but you can pay...um oh yeah...to win.".

So this could be fixed easily by simply turning on expansion classes in WvW. OR making 1 "classic" server. Classic server would be no-desert maps. The water back in the center. Old mechanics. Travelers needed for golems.

Basically back when the game was good.

Lastly the WvW population is almost NONE of the important population we keep being told. That is why it isn't actively supported. So giving free access to class expansions in WvW isn't losing anything is it? You don't want to pay for this? I'll do it for you for free. Sign an NDA and spend a week making the change. If you think it would take longer than that then either:

1.) You need cleaner code.2.) You need better programmers.Possibly both...as 2 causes 1 to not occur.

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So you might get the feeling that I'm frustrated and dying a bunch. Well its true. But what is a bunch for me? Once an hour. Used to be once 4 hours. Why am I dying more now. Well I used to be able to compete against a good player and win most of the time. If I couldn't win I'd at least survive. Now however a ranger has 3 invisibility skills. How many does my base one have? One. Do I hit harder because of less skills? Nope. Do I have more heals? Nope he does? What about movement skills. Again he has way better ones.

Well thats just rangers...NOPE...

thief..same have 2mesmer...same have 2warriar...same have 1Guardian...same have 1engineer...same have 2elementalist have 1

So you see I'm not some noob that is getting owned and crying. There are REAL problems. Don't believe me or disagree? Roll a base class and post your unedited 4 hours session. It will be a target fest most likely or a structure hugging event.

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@Skeletor.9360 said:So you might get the feeling that I'm frustrated and dying a bunch. Well its true. But what is a bunch for me? Once an hour. Used to be once 4 hours. Why am I dying more now. Well I used to be able to compete against a good player and win most of the time. If I couldn't win I'd at least survive. Now however a ranger has 3 invisibility skills. How many does my base one have? One. Do I hit harder because of less skills? Nope. Do I have more heals? Nope he does? What about movement skills. Again he has way better ones.

Well thats just rangers...NOPE...

thief..same have 2mesmer...same have 2warriar...same have 1Guardian...same have 1engineer...same have 2elementalist have 1

So you see I'm not some noob that is getting owned and crying. There are REAL problems. Don't believe me or disagree? Roll a base class and post your unedited 4 hours session. It will be a target fest most likely or a structure hugging event.

Actually, I was thinking you haven't play in a while, came back and found you didn't know how to fight the new classes

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"Skeletor.9360" said:So you might get the feeling that I'm frustrated and dying a bunch. Well its true. But what is a bunch for me? Once an hour. Used to be once 4 hours. Why am I dying more now. Well I used to be able to compete against a good player and win most of the time. If I couldn't win I'd at least survive. Now however a ranger has 3 invisibility skills. How many does my base one have? One. Do I hit harder because of less skills? Nope. Do I have more heals? Nope he does? What about movement skills. Again he has way better ones.

Well thats just rangers...NOPE...

thief..same have 2mesmer...same have 2warriar...same have 1Guardian...same have 1engineer...same have 2elementalist have 1

So you see I'm not some noob that is getting owned and crying. There are REAL problems. Don't believe me or disagree? Roll a base class and post your unedited 4 hours session. It will be a target fest most likely or a structure hugging event.

Actually, I was thinking you haven't play in a while, came back and found you didn't know how to fight the new classes

This is largely true because I have no access to the skills on my own toons...so I can only guess what they did or spend hours researching builds and imagining how they can be used. In fact the class design is so bad I thought for sure people were hacking. I send them a tell and they point me at something completely ridiculously OP.

Further because of this I have no idea what a hack looks like. Yesterday I tried to kill the new thief derivative in a circle at a camp. Tried and tried for a couple minutes on an alt "free" account using a thief. (I win most fights on my free account thief BTW.) With this character I did not hit her once. She repeated a skill over and over that prevented me from hitting her. ...probably repeated the skill 50 times... Finally I just left and she laughed at me. Hack or expansion skill...no idea.

Not allowing full access to the expansion classes in WvW creates many more problems for ANET than the few bucks it makes off me.

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You don't have access in any gamemode, where most of the meta revolves around the newer specs. You have HoT - so you have access to Chrono, still meta in modes, still has a place in WvW. Tempest support does okay in WvW. Daredevil same. Support Scrapper was buffed. Herald still rules. You have a lot of options, you seem to be ignoring them. Or you know, spend like $20 when it's on sale and get PoF.

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I see no problem with the current model, though I do understand your frustration (I play Tempest and prefer HoT over PoF classes myself). Pick up the expansions when they go on sale or run with others in voice chat so they can explain the new classes.

Abusing a game mechanic to whisper enemies will most likely only get you salt. Have you posted in the class forums?

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Although the expansions do give an advantage .its not one sided by server.What is an obvious but little noticed pay to win is the over stacking of servers with the transfer costs payed buy gems. I have always insisted that the number transfers should have be limited by account over a period of time and that time should be increased for each transfer made.Unless that is addressed, transfers to over stack servers is just another form of pay to win.But who knows with the changes coming up how this might be resolved.

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Core warrior wins plenty of 1v1 fights. So do core thief and mes. Core guardian is also a quite viable roamer if you build right. Core ele is still useful in zergs. There are viable options without buying expansions.If you choose to build and gear poorly, that's on you. If you choose not to learn how to play your classes, that's also on you.

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Classes you can play owning core or HoT versions of the game that are still good/meta/competitive.

Roaming: Cores/HoT- Warrior-core, Mesmer-chrono, Thief-DD, Guard-either, Necro-ReaperZerging: Cores/HoT- Ele-either, Guard-either(Though FB is much better), Warrior-core, Mesmer-chrono, maybe could squeeze Reaper in here as well depending on comp.

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So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?

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@Vayne.8563 said:So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?Kind of bad argument. Other developers make horrible decisions so it's ok. :)

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@Junkpile.7439 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:So tell me OP. Precisely which games don't give you an advantage for buying the expansion? I mean most games raise the level cap which gives you an advantage in PvP, no? P2W has never applied to expansions before, only microtransactions, where you have to keep spending money. I mean if you meet a guy on a PvP server in WOW and he's 10 levels higher than you, won't he kill you?Kind of bad argument. Other developers make horrible decisions so it's ok. :)

Other way around actually. It's a bad argument to take a word at it's literal definition rather than using it as originally intended. Those that have played MMOs for years, used the pay to win moniker to identify games that required you to spend money in the cash shop to stay competitive. I can't think of any MMO at all that doesn't give you an advantage for buying an expansion. That doesn't make it pay to win. It's how MMOs are designed.

But there are games that offer power for cash in the cash shop, that's a very different situation. MMOs, unlike other games, require upkeep. You buy a driving game and you play the game and it requires very little upkeep moving forward. Not so an MMO. So they have mechanisms to fund the project going further, including expansions. That people think that it's pay to win to sell an expansion, in spite of the fact that this has always been the case devalues the word pay to win, because if every MMO is pay to win than none of them are.

What the OP is saying is I want to play the game for free forever, rather than supporting it over time. And he can say that. But it doesn't make the game pay to win.

Pay to win was a way to differentiate games that did something very specific from other games. Technically all games that aren't free are pay to win because you have to buy them to play them, but anyone who suggested that would be laughed out of the room, or should be.

No, this isn't a valid argument. Pay to win doesn't mean literally pay to win, or no game would be able to avoid the description.

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The meta is changing at the alarming rate (not). Op can't stay the same and win forever. There isn't an Apex predator in the competitive mode. If you don't want to die, identify the threat and/or gtfo. Or maybe do eotm if you don't wish to see others with the elite specs you don't have access to.

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The meaning of what p2w is has been lost with the new age of gamers. This game is indeed, p2w as it is currently. Regardless of if a player can win with a core class or not. When stacked side by side with a elite specialization if there is a marginal difference in power/effectiveness then that is the definition of p2w.

Anet knows this, which is why class balance is in its current state where PoF classes are powercreeped. Same with HoT classes when they first rolled out.

Current model as is. New expansion (Powercreep classes) -> Odd balance decisions to act as if there doing something with the feedback -> New expansion comes(Nerf previous expansion classes, powercreep the new ones).

Hell look at scourge on beta weekend when servers were running it in mass. Biggest example of p2w.

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... some players are just skillful on any spec. you just got to figure the proper setup.

a build good on pof, gear and weaponset may not be good with base. and vice versa.

also, the game changes over time, if you limit self on core game, you have the core areas. you still can do wvw and enjoy. but if u want the whole shebang, which is pof and hot, you got to pay for it.

i doubt anet ppl are living on stock invesment.

on that note, maybe anet can have options where players can buy expansion via gems?

i mean people buying gems = money, gold buying gems equals players trading for thems from people who bought gems with money.

it is a win win.

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@Iris Ng.9845 said:The meta is changing at the alarming rate (not). Op can't stay the same and win forever. There isn't an Apex predator in the competitive mode. If you don't want to die, identify the threat and/or gtfo. Or maybe do eotm if you don't wish to see others with the elite specs you don't have access to.What!!!! You can only use vanilla specs in EotM? Holy kitten anet. That is awesome.

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@"iKeostuKen.2738" said:The meaning of what p2w is has been lost with the new age of gamers. This game is indeed, p2w as it is currently. Regardless of if a player can win with a core class or not. When stacked side by side with a elite specialization if there is a marginal difference in power/effectiveness then that is the definition of p2w.

Anet knows this, which is why class balance is in its current state where PoF classes are powercreeped. Same with HoT classes when they first rolled out.

Current model as is. New expansion (Powercreep classes) -> Odd balance decisions to act as if there doing something with the feedback -> New expansion comes(Nerf previous expansion classes, powercreep the new ones).

Hell look at scourge on beta weekend when servers were running it in mass. Biggest example of p2w.

But does it actually matter?

No.

For one thing, there is years between expansions. Compared to other games such as the Battlefield series, thats literally the eqvivalent of releasing a new game. No one is squeezing your wallet or turning you upside down to get every last dollar every month just to get you the latest stuff. You maybe call it p2w, I just call it an expansion. PoF is now GW2 the game, not GW2 vanilla version.

Secondly, the f2p aspects of GW2 (ie GW2 vanilla) is basicly shareware. Its a demo. GW2 is not a f2p game, it was never intented like that. Its meant to get you interested, to get you hooked. To show you what GW2 the game (HoT+PoF) is for free so that you can tell your friends "hey look at this awesome game!" and not have them go "but I have to pay to test I dont wanna commit to a new MMO bwaaabwaaaabwaaa". But with this, you can take them to WvW and show them the game.

Thirdly, if you keep insisting its p2w then sure, lets say its p2w then. That only means GW2 is the top 1 game with the best implementation of p2w ever for the customer. I'm sure we'll do ok.

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