The Norn. Has there ever been a push for a united Norn Nation All Under One Banner?

Hello fellow adventurers!The Norn would be my favorite group second by the humans.just wondering if any Norn or anyone has ever tried to unite all the tribes into a huge mass.Kinda bugs me that in there homeland they use the Lionguard as a defense army when there should be a Norn home guard or something.A united norm would truly be a powerful force they would wipe the sons and take control of the greater norn area.Have they ever had a High King or anything like that?

Norn have no need of nations.

Sure, I'm dropping a meme there, but it pretty much does sum up their approach. Right now is probably the most united the norn have ever been... or ever wanted to be. They're highly individualistic and won't take orders from anybody - even the Wolfborn are more akin to a like-minded group of sanctioned vigilantes than an organised police force.

Hoelbrak and its environs is probably the most organised norn settlement that there has ever been, and that's in response to the pressure from Jormag driving them south. In the past, they were even more individualistic.

The closest would be the kodan legend about the norn having originally been a kodan tribe that fell from Koda's favour when a Claw decided to lead on his own without a Voice, but there's a lot that's suspicious about that legend, or Thruln the Lost's tale about the norn being part of the ancient jotun civilisation, which is even more suspicious since parts of it are demonstrably false. Certainly, there's no solid evidence of any genuine effort to unite the norn under one banner during any period during which they were truly norn.

Unless you think the Sons of Svanir count, but even they seem to only want half of the norn population.

Much of GW1 Eye of the North campaign revolved around trying to unite the Norn as an army to take in the Destroyer threat, yet the Norn were opposed to doing this as it simply isnt in their nature.

Once they started adding Norn to the Orders etc, to me a lot of what made them so unique was lost even tho I understand why they did it. I dont normally do the whole gw1 vs gw2 thing, but i certain,y preferred the Norn in gw1 for their more isolationist approach to life.

Dont forget tho, braham manages to unite many to his cause after crwcking jormags tooth. Whilst such a powerful moment was critically underscored, it was an example of norns uniting

I think...Norn will unite if something big enough to shake them or make them living legend.

+Must have great risk/dangerous toward they life/history/spirit/their people.+Somebody who never have legend took arrow to the knee back to rest his/her peaceful life.+BUT he/she accident crack "Claw of Jormag" in greathall.+Norn follow or join his/her force who crack that claw to fight a problem.+And all of them will be Legends.

My Norn shall unite some under the banner Daughters of Jormag. Why worship Svanir over Jormag?

The Wolfborn are a group of norn, led and founded by Sigfast and Skarti, which keep the peace in Hoelbrak. The Wolfborn began as a rowdy bunch of Sigfast and Skarti's friends, but grew in size and discipline as Hoelbrak did. Someone can only join the group by knowing a member of the Wolfborn and being vouched for.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wolfborn

A united norm would truly be a powerful force they would wipe the sons and take control of the greater norn area.

the impression I have is that the Norm are intended to be portrayed as not very populous race.

historically I see no problem, stateless tribes, although it does not have a formal state, it usually has great control over customs, and Norm gives much emphasis to their traditions, so it's okay, is just a stateless tribe.

Thing is, they're not even tribes. That implies chiefs, and some degree of kinship/ethnic-based political identity, and the norn reject both of those things. Every individual is their own person (and seemingly on their own, too- romanticized or not, that kind of independence is still a tradeoff), and outside of Hoelbrak, there doesn't seem to be any kind of organization or group sub-identities larger than small hunting bands or maybe particularly large families where the kids haven't gone their own way yet.

I don't think they're compatible with real-world classifications- tribe, kingdom, nation, what-have-you- because they aren't comparable to any real-world cultures that I've ever heard of... and if such a people did exist in our world, it's very unlikely that they would've made a mark on history by which to be remembered. The norn work because they're in a fantasy setting playing by fantasy rules, complete with larger-than-life heroes and great monsters for them to make a name by slaying.

I would really like to see more cultural off shoots of the norn, similarly to how the Olmakhan contrast the Charr so greatly. I feel like all the non-human races really deserve that kind of lore expansion to flesh them out a bit. Norn the didn't want to seek individual glory, but instead wanted a community and commune that supports one another. Asura who rejected the science/unethical nature of their society and have forged a different path. More Sylvari in other locations based on different fauna with different philosophies.

The norn feel the most stereotypical/shallow to me honestly, so I'd really like to see some more depth and variation there.

I'm not opposed to it, but honestly, I'd prefer to see them better flesh out the archetypal norn that they've already established before they start playing with the formula. Along with the humans, they're the race that's had their traits diluted down until they're hardly represented at all. Let's see some norn doing legendary things, or communing with their spirits, or running headlong into the kind of trouble you'd expect in a society where everyone is their own authority. Let's see lodges that hold moots instead of being Roadside Inn #73, let's see hunting parties that actlike they could actually feed themselves instead of falling over drunkenly if they ever get close to what they're hunting, let's see warriors that are carving out a home for themselves amongst the dredge and jotun and monsters that menace from all sides. Let's see the skalds sharing their history around a campfire, and maybe even add in some of the gaps in the norn worldview that we have for the charr and asura and humans and sylvari. As it is, someone just judging the norn by what's in-game could be forgiven for believing that they didn't exist in Tyria before EotN.

(Let's see a major norn character who isn't a guy with nothing between his ears but another muscle. We've only had the one, and she was killed off three years ago now.)

So it would take a great invasion of holbruk to get them to unite.

@"Silverkung.9127" said:I think...Norn will unite if something big enough to shake them or make them living legend.

+Must have great risk/dangerous toward they life/history/spirit/their people.+Somebody who never have legend took arrow to the knee back to rest his/her peaceful life.+BUT he/she accident crack "Claw of Jormag" in greathall.+Norn follow or join his/her force who crack that claw to fight a problem.+And all of them will be Legends.

norn have no need of armies since there is no enemy so great as to call them from their mountain fastnesses.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:I'm not opposed to it, but honestly, I'd prefer to see them better flesh out the archetypal norn that they've already established before they start playing with the formula. Along with the humans, they're the race that's had their traits diluted down until they're hardly represented at all. Let's see some norn doing legendary things, or communing with their spirits, or running headlong into the kind of trouble you'd expect in a society where everyone is their own authority. Let's see lodges that hold moots instead of being Roadside Inn #73, let's see hunting parties that actlike they could actually feed themselves instead of falling over drunkenly if they ever get close to what they're hunting, let's see warriors that are carving out a home for themselves amongst the dredge and jotun and monsters that menace from all sides. Let's see the skalds sharing their history around a campfire, and maybe even add in some of the gaps in the norn worldview that we have for the charr and asura and humans and sylvari. As it is, someone just judging the norn by what's in-game could be forgiven for believing that they didn't exist in Tyria before EotN.

(Let's see a major norn character who isn't a guy with nothing between his ears but another muscle. We've only had the one, and she was killed off three years ago now.)

Yeah.. she's the only Norn character I can say I liked much. So many of them are just fist for brains who think bashing stuff solves all problems.

(It also annoys me that the two biggest examples of Guardians as major characters are Logan who's kind of a prick when he's not just boring and Braham who's the aforementioned fist for brains when he isn't acting like an angsty teen. Guardian is my favorite class, especially firebrand and I'd love to see a more scholarly sort as a major character...)

@Reusterr.6982 said:So it would take a great invasion of holbruk to get them to unite.

Possibly not even that. Their belief in the power of the individual might have taken a hit when Jormag pushed them all south, but it's still a defining characteristic.

I always felt non-human guardians were sort of nonsense. Far as I can tell their magic works on....friendship? and the light? whatever that is. But Anet was pretty adamant about being racially inclusive to all the classes.

Though admittedly, the idea of someone being so zealous about friendship that they immolate someone is mildly hilarious, like a radicalized Brony con.

Well, more radicalized.

@"Loesh.4697" said:I always felt non-human guardians were sort of nonsense. Far as I can tell their magic works on....friendship? and the light? whatever that is. But Anet was pretty adamant about being racially inclusive to all the classes.

Though admittedly, the idea of someone being so zealous about friendship that they immolate someone is mildly hilarious, like a radicalized Brony con.

Well, more radicalized.

To be fair, Dinky is the most hilarious guardian to ever exist and the charr shamans were often times monks, with monk/elementalist, elementalist/monk being their favoured multiclass. So if nonhuman monks are not without precedent, why should nonhuman guardians be an issue?

@Castigator.3470 said:

@"Loesh.4697" said:I always felt non-human guardians were sort of nonsense. Far as I can tell their magic works on....friendship? and the light? whatever that is. But Anet was pretty adamant about being racially inclusive to all the classes.

Though admittedly, the idea of someone being so zealous about friendship that they immolate someone is mildly hilarious, like a radicalized Brony con.

Well,

more

radicalized.

The shaman part is key though, my issue is not so much that they are nonhuman, it's that they aren't terribly religious. I mean sure you could consecrate something in the name of football, but people might look at you weird. A lot of the religious overtones shine through with the guardian and it's more then a little distracting.

Dinky is, indeed, hilarious though. He doesn't make a lot of sense attitude wise even within the context of what Arenanet has presented guardians to be, but he's charming.

@Loesh.4697 said:

@Castigator.3470 said:

@Loesh.4697 said:I always felt non-human guardians were sort of nonsense. Far as I can tell their magic works on....friendship? and the light? whatever that is. But Anet was pretty adamant about being racially inclusive to all the classes.

Though admittedly, the idea of someone being so zealous about friendship that they immolate someone is mildly hilarious, like a radicalized Brony con.

Well,

more

radicalized.

Looking at guardian skills and traits its safer to say that guardian is based on compassion and anger at injustice. Not about religion

@Loesh.4697 said:I always felt non-human guardians were sort of nonsense. Far as I can tell their magic works on....friendship? and the light? whatever that is.

Not exactly. Their magic is born from the desire/need/instinct to protect those you love, like and cherish. Like a parent protects their children. Or like a soldier protects his comrade, his brother in arms.

The difference between a warrior and a guardian is mostly based on how that power manifests. A warrior channels that power mostly inwards, becoming faster, stronger and more durable because of it, whereas a guardians power manifests outward, producing wards, symbols, etc.

The norn being individualistic makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint. Humans only formed communities because of protection of strength in numbers against the larger predators(which included cave bears the size of hippos during the ice age O_o ). Basically anything that's threat to a large monkey is a natural predator to humans. The norn however are naturally large(I hear the in-game norn are actually scaled to be smaller in comparison to how large they would be realistically), and they are shapeshifters. So whatever trouble they can't handle with their sheer bulk, they could handle by shifting to something more ferocious. Even if that's not enough, they can probably easily flee anything they can't handle even in that form. So, as a race, they've never had much incentive to come together as a community as they are the apex predator. Until Jormag happened.

I mean there's also the emphasis on consecrations, sanctuary, holiness, judgement smiting, as well as compassion, justice, virtue, and...a host of other things. I mean hell like the GW1 monk the symbol of the Guardian is a modified Ankh which of course has a lot of origins with religion, well religion, sandal straps, and male genitalia but you get the point.

The explanation that it works because of faith in ones friends, and that compassion somehow can also translate into violent zealotry, manifesting in light has kinda made sense. But it feels very...limp? compared to it's monk roots. More then anything it just seemed like Anet wanted a monk that could fit into the other races lifestyle so they tried to jam a square peg into a round hole. Despite the fact that, aesthetically, guardians don't really match with many of the other races lifestyles or personal beliefs and customs.

There was a mention in the interviews around the time that guardians were announced that what empowers guardians (and monks by extension) is faith.

However, it just matters that the guardian/monk has faith. The magic doesn't care what your faith is in.

Do you have a religion? Great! No religion, but you're so patriotic it might as well be? That works too! Or do you place your faith in your friends? Not a weakness!

This explains why monks in GW1 were usually associated with religions, but were no less powerful if they were worshiping something that really shouldn't be able to grant healing, protection, and/or light powers.

A lot of the skill names have religious tones because the guardian profession was invented by humans.

(I would note, mind you, that a lot of people probably would treat football as a religion, including having their own rituals that could be regarded as consecration rituals...)

Oh I completely understand the Anet explanation, or rather what they are trying to explain. It comes off as total nonsense though, while there are plenty of people zealous about their friends and family the fact that it manifests as rays of judgement and sanctified areas is....eh, form and function, don't match that whatsoever and that an entire order would manifest their power this way across nations, even with their human origins, don't make a whole lot of sense.

And sure you have people who are really into the sports and all that jazz, but they aren't BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE. if they were, they would...well actually, then it would just actually be religion and that's basically the point i'm trying to make. These people have to fanatical and even upper tier love and affection for ones friends doesn't compete with the sheer level of crazy your average religious loon could put out.

Though the idea of someone becoming a guardian to empower the FOOTBALL GOD and cast his SMITING RAYS OF JUDGEMENT ON THE UNBELIEVERS is incredibly amusing.

@Loesh.4697 said:Oh I completely understand the Anet explanation, or rather what they are trying to explain. It comes off as total nonsense though, while there are plenty of people zealous about their friends and family the fact that it manifests as rays of judgement and sanctified areas is....eh, form and function, don't match that whatsoever and that an entire order would manifest their power this way across nations, even with their human origins, don't make a whole lot of sense.

Not really. Consider: In the context of Tyria, why are things like beams of light that can distinguish between friend and foe associated with religion? Because that's something that guardians (and, formerly, monks) do, and they are associated with religion because they are often religious themselves. Guardian and monk powers certainly don't line up nicely to any of the gods - Dwayna and Balthazar (and, considering nonhumans, Zintl, although I don't think we've seen hylek guardians...) are probably closest, but any powers that did come directly from any of the gods or godlike beings in the setting would look quite different to the powers of a monk or guardian.

What's actually happening is that guardian/monk magic is a branch of magic just like the magic of necromancers, mesmers, and elementalists, but for some unknown reason, it appears to be drawn to, and function best for, people with faith. The names are just names, reflecting the fact that most people with that degree of faith, and hence most guardians, are religious in some manner or another, with most of the original guardians likely being priests of Dwayna or Balthazar.

And, believe me, there are people who get that obsessed with their sport(s) of choice. I don't understand it either myself, but it happens nonetheless.

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Loesh.4697 said:Oh I completely understand the Anet explanation, or rather what they are trying to explain. It comes off as total nonsense though, while there are plenty of people zealous about their friends and family the fact that it manifests as rays of judgement and sanctified areas is....eh, form and function, don't match that whatsoever and that an entire order would manifest their power this way across nations, even with their human origins, don't make a whole lot of sense.

Close is a drastic understatement, those powers look exactly like something that would come from Dwayna or Balthazar, in no small part because whenthe gods were still messing around with mortals 200 years ago that's pretty much their go to of choice. Beams of light, cooling healing mist, massive explosions of fire, their aesthetic colors even even orange and blue respectively. In their depictions. I mean back in the days of monks it wasn't even subtle, you were a direct conduit to the gods through which their power was flowing and you even had absurd things like Resurrection shrines that brought back the dead and bestow blessings

Let's not even talk about the angel and seraph imagery from wings of resolve, cause yeah. Why would a Charr manifest his comradeship in something that looks so distinctly godlike is beyond me, but there you go.

And yes I have seen some crazy sports fans, but few of them have come at me with a chain-axe...yet. :P