I want more challenge in this game - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

I want more challenge in this game

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  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I agree with Ayakaru on this one. Also I think he didn't word it quite right. This isn't really meant to make the story more challenging, insomuch as to give it a better structure.

    Its something I've said before. The way that story missions handle failure is poorly designed, and it is unlike everything else in the entire game. To have you constantly corpse rush the boss with no true means of failure makes any progress a hollow victory, while also demeaning you on death. This also makes achievement hunting a pain, since a lot of achievements will fail on death, and in order to try again you have to restart the client and sit through several loading screens. The argument that people have for maintaining this system is essentially just self loathing about how bad they feel their own skill level is, and having this system just reinforces this problem.

    I mentioned Cuphead last time, but I'll use a different example. You know how in Megaman, if you die at the boss the game puts you right outside the boss? Yeah, that. What GW2 story mode should have is a checkpoint room right before the boss, and if you are ever defeated the game will send you there and restart the boss. More importantly, it should reset every single achievement tied to that boss. Put an anvil in there so people can repair broken gear. That way, a player gets a limitless number of attempts to fight the boss, under the stipulation that they have to defeat the entire boss in one full stride. This system respects the boss, respects the player, and makes death meaningful while also cheap. There's a reason why it works everywhere else in the entire game.

    If there are problems with certain fights being too difficult, then those fights themselves can be adjusted to be easier. It is much better than having a system that emotionally flogs you with every death.

    well, you worded it a lot better than I did.

    In retrospect, I also like to think of Hollow Knight, now.
    Most of the bosses difficulty come from learning the patterns, and learning to adapt the bosses' various skills.
    In GW2 most of the bosses are identical, they stand still in one corner of the room, sometimes running away to another side. It's practically a target practice run. Any difficulty is not set out by handling their abilities, but through raw health sponge combat. Can you do more dps than the boss, or outheal the boss' dps? then you win.

    and same with the Cuphead analogy, you get one try on a full boss run, no corpse running. And similarly, every boss has its own abilities and mechanics, rather than fighting the same boss over and over with a different skin/animation.

    I am just reminded of the Broken King in the new raid wing. He seems to be an amalgamation of the Balthazar fight, and the space-woman from the fractals with her bouncy ball.

    and I agree how annoying some of those achievements are. I can even remember a completely arbitrary one: the first Challenge in Tarir, where you have to defeat a set of dragon minions in one go without dying. But that achievement is entirely without purpose, because if you die, you lose the progress, but the entire fight resets anyway. So the only criteria is actually "clear it after listening to all the dialogue, or relisten to all the dialogue again".

    Well cant say another event then broken king get harder the faster you burn them down.
    You do know that if you dps to fast more green spawn making you run around alot more right?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    they weren't very hard, no, but hard doesn't mean challenging.
    Challenging means that you have to prepare, and adapt.
    GW1 wasn't exactly friendly to 1 build does all (maybe at the end, once you had all the skills and heroes maxed)
    If you failed a boss, you had to change your tactics. I remember being stuck on the frozen gate for weeks because I couldn't deal with the dolyak shamans.

    of course, once you've cleared the game and maxed the heroes, normal mode becomes easy mode, and hard more becomes your challenging content

    After you get your "end game" build ready there isn't really any adapting needed in Guild Wars 1, you can play all content with the exact same composition including hard mode. There is little to no "adaption" needed in GW1 unless you want to speed run or low-man run content. There is way more adaption required in GW2 because you are alone and need to adapt your build to survive different encounters. In GW1 you play the same build regardless of your chosen profession (PVE-only skills ftw) and your (always the same) 7 heroes. You remember a "challenging" GW1 that you had to adapt to beat maps, I remember a snooze fest GW1 with my 7 heroes doing all the work while I went semi-afk.

  • @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    I mean, for real, why should we have to take Balthazar and Joko seriously, if we LITERALLY cannot lose to them?
    Every duel with a boss follows the same pattern, you put in half an effort, and you kill the boss with easy.
    Or you just laze away, half-minded, and the boss kills you a few times, but no worries, because THERE ARE NO FAIL CONDITIONS.
    There literally isn't a point to having a health bar, because once the health bar hits zero, it just goes back to full and you can keep fighting.
    Even if you're somehow so bad you keep dying until you're in your underwear, as long as you keep hitting that respawn button, you can kill Balthazar in your swim shorts.

    So thats what I'm asking, why do we even care about the big villains if they're INCAPABLE of defeating us? We can literally keep nibbling away at them at our weakest, and they can't do anything to stop us.

    And it's not just from a mechanical point of view, we're even immortal in the story.
    Apparantly, having died once, makes us immune to dying again, according to LS4-3, which didn't make any sense to me, at all.
    What, so we're incorporeal now? the beetles can't dig into us, lay eggs, and eat us up from the inside because our bodies have already been dead once before?

    I am PLEADING you, anet, give the bosses some fail conditions, let them win for a change. Give us a reason to take their fights seriously?
    Otherwise we can all just go on vacation and send a swarm of Skritt and Quaggans to go kill the next boss.

    The whole talk about Generation III bugs had me hoping there would be a story point where Joko unleashes the plague, and we lose, and we have to cleanse, purge, or downright burn down an entire society or something. To keep it from spreading.
    When we stormed that palace of his, and the gates broken, I thought "here it is".
    Only to have a bunch of ghosts say "we'll keep them contained".
    Then what was the whole point of the plague?
    There was never any risk if we only needed a few ghosts to end the plague.
    The plague was a sort of MacGuffin, but now it's just a background drop.

    Give the villains some slack, anet, please, give us a reason to actually WANT to defeat them

    Create a new alt and if you get him killed, delete him and start again with new one.
    Then you can call us when you finish the game without dying.

    No images or emojis allowed. Signatures can be up to 300 characters long.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Overlord RainyDay.2084 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Go play raids if you want challenge.

    I already am, but I got into this game for the story.
    I played GW1 and GW2 because it has an amazing world, with amazing villains. And if you played GW1 you will know what I
    mean when I say how dumbed down GW2 has become.

    At this point it has nothing to do with 'wanting challenge' anymore. But the most basic respect we're supposed to have for our villains.
    Instead, our characters are just gods who can even taunt the actual gods at this point.

    I played GW1 too, and i have no idea what you're talking about. The big boss fights in story missions weren't exactly rough there either. I remember getting to the Lich to be much harder than actually killing him, Abbadon not being as threatening as he looked, and Shiro and the Great Destroyer being easily-cheesed pushovers. The final boss of EotN, built up over the entire game as a legendary foe, can be annihilated in a minute, with most of that time spent walking over to him so you can cast one single pain inverter.

    If you wanted decent challenge you didn't get it in the story. You went to elite areas, or went vanquishing, and even then, most of the tougher vanquishes were only bad if you pulled too many or RNG gave you an obnoxious enemy comp to deal with. Speaking of taunting gods to their face, Abbadon in hard mode is not nearly as difficult as fighting a group of regular awakened with 3 cavaliers if you forgot to bring frozen soil.

    Admittedly, it would be nice if there was an optional hard mode for story bosses, even if it was just "Allies don't res you, and enemy HP always resets to 100% if you die".

    I agree with this. I didn't feel that any of the fights on Guild Wars 1 in story were particularly hard.

    they weren't very hard, no, but hard doesn't mean challenging.
    Challenging means that you have to prepare, and adapt.
    GW1 wasn't exactly friendly to 1 build does all (maybe at the end, once you had all the skills and heroes maxed)
    If you failed a boss, you had to change your tactics. I remember being stuck on the frozen gate for weeks because I couldn't deal with the dolyak shamans.

    of course, once you've cleared the game and maxed the heroes, normal mode becomes easy mode, and hard more becomes your challenging content

    I almost never changed builds for bosses in Guild Wars 1. Maybe twice, if that. Shiro for example. But having to change builds is not any definition of challenging I've ever heard.

    Guild Wars 1 was like a deck building game, so logically the challenge would have been in building your deck. Guild Wars 2 is an action combat game, so naturally the combat would be geared toward action combat. Saying it's not challenging isn't true....it's differently challenging.

    For example, using a build I got off the build wiki (I think it was called PvX wiki) I was able to defeat Shiro in about 20 seconds at the end of Factions. I didn't make the build. I needed no skill at all. By the same token, having the right build in Guild Wars 2 without the skill itself doesn't do you much good...but it's a different kind of skill. People less used to twitch mechanics would find Guild Wars 2 more challenging. It's just a different type of challenge.

  • juhani.5361juhani.5361 Member ✭✭✭

    You know, there was a game that tried this-- started with a "W" and ended with a "star." And, oddly enough, its company was owned by the same parent company that owns Anet. People have been citing it for at least a couple of years as an example for years of why you don't cater to the most skilled and hardcore members of gaming communities. As of yesterday, the analogy has been given very, very sharp teeth. Sharp getting shut down teeth.

    I'd love to see difficulty levels. I really like this:

    @Scud.5067 said:
    Difficulty Select:

    I'm Too Young To Die - Mobs have 25% less health
    Hurt Me Plenty - Normal mode
    Ultra Violence - Mobs have 25% more health and do 20% more damage
    Nightmare - Mobs have 50% more health, do 25% more damage and each instance has its own time limit.
    Ultra Nightmare - As Nightmare, but if you die, it resets the story to the beginning of the chain.

    But I want, "I'm Too Pretty to Die. Please Be Nice Mr. Monster"-- mobs have 50% less health.

    I've done the opening instances for all of the LW S3 & 4 stuff. I've only died on the stupid Forearm quest (want a challenge? do the prepare your troops thing using Blish's skills because you missed a popup message) and Kittenbot 6000-EFFYOO before unlocking the Sandswept Isles. Aside from Kittenbot, most of the boss battles haven't been too bad. They felt a lot easier than most of the PoF encounters. But kitten, they're long. Boring. And ridiculously annoying with stupid mechanics. That makes them feel harder than they probably are. Plus, if you don't zoom the camera out, you're going to go splat really fast from endless AOE whose limits you can't see.

    I'd love to see settings similar to SWTOR KOTFEET's chapters or flashpoints. That way everyone can see the story and maybe actually enjoy (or tolerate) some of these encounters.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2018

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    I almost never changed builds for bosses in Guild Wars 1. Maybe twice, if that. Shiro for example. But having to change builds is not any definition of challenging I've ever heard.

    Guild Wars 1 was like a deck building game, so logically the challenge would have been in building your deck. Guild Wars 2 is an action combat game, so naturally the combat would be geared toward action combat. Saying it's not challenging isn't true....it's differently challenging.

    For example, using a build I got off the build wiki (I think it was called PvX wiki) I was able to defeat Shiro in about 20 seconds at the end of Factions. I didn't make the build. I needed no skill at all. By the same token, having the right build in Guild Wars 2 without the skill itself doesn't do you much good...but it's a different kind of skill. People less used to twitch mechanics would find Guild Wars 2 more challenging. It's just a different type of challenge.

    I agree, planning in GW1 was important for very very few fights. Shiro with stance removal skills is a joke (or use Elementalist and the celestial skill) The rest of the game was beatable with the "meta" 7-hero team + a main character using 3 PVE-only skills, your own profession didn't really matter.
    Meanwhile in GW2 I always change my build, in one fight there is lots of conditions and I slot condition removal, in the other fight there is more projectiles so I get projectile deflection, in the other fight there is lots of knockdowns so I get more stability. And so on. I must say that GW2 already requires more pre-planning for each encounter than GW1 ever did. At least after EotN was released that turned character building into a joke.

  • @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I agree with Ayakaru on this one. Also I think he didn't word it quite right. This isn't really meant to make the story more challenging, insomuch as to give it a better structure.

    Its something I've said before. The way that story missions handle failure is poorly designed, and it is unlike everything else in the entire game. To have you constantly corpse rush the boss with no true means of failure makes any progress a hollow victory, while also demeaning you on death. This also makes achievement hunting a pain, since a lot of achievements will fail on death, and in order to try again you have to restart the client and sit through several loading screens. The argument that people have for maintaining this system is essentially just self loathing about how bad they feel their own skill level is, and having this system just reinforces this problem.

    I mentioned Cuphead last time, but I'll use a different example. You know how in Megaman, if you die at the boss the game puts you right outside the boss? Yeah, that. What GW2 story mode should have is a checkpoint room right before the boss, and if you are ever defeated the game will send you there and restart the boss. More importantly, it should reset every single achievement tied to that boss. Put an anvil in there so people can repair broken gear. That way, a player gets a limitless number of attempts to fight the boss, under the stipulation that they have to defeat the entire boss in one full stride. This system respects the boss, respects the player, and makes death meaningful while also cheap. There's a reason why it works everywhere else in the entire game.

    If there are problems with certain fights being too difficult, then those fights themselves can be adjusted to be easier. It is much better than having a system that emotionally flogs you with every death.

    This is a recipe for disaster. There are many players that won't be able to beat the boss in "one full stride" at the present difficulty of the Living Stories. Failing over and over is going to get old and lots of people will quit. I agree the corpse rush isn't optimal. Perhaps optional difficulty modes with rewards being better for increased difficulty.

    If they had better checkpoints or even the "skip straight to boss" motes it would be less of an issue. If you knew you that if you got in over your head, you could leave, grab a friend and jump right back in, or even just take a break and come back later without doing the full 30-minute instance, people would be happier.

    I definitely think having the achievements reset would be nice as well. There's so many ones I never went back to get because I didn't want to deal with redoing the whole mission if I slipped up at the end.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    There's a 200+ post thread on this page suggesting Story Content be made easier. Who should ArenaNet listen to?

    It literally can't be easier at this point because you can already clear everything with certainty.
    Any 'failure' or 'death' is rewarded with instant revival, while damaged mobs and bosses remain damaged.
    Repairing armour is free.
    Sometimes NPCs res you on the spot, sometimes not, very inconsistent.

    What I'm getting at is, people asking for the game to get easier fail to say that it's already impossible to fail

    Actually, I know lots of people that have a problem with some parts of the game, including story. You aren't being considerate of these people. If you want it harder, kitten yourself down in stats and go for it. It's easier to make it harder for yourself than it is for people to make it easier for themselves.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Go play raids if you want challenge.

    whats challenging about raids? the bosses are still dungeon level easy, except theres a time limit. lol big whoop.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Majic.4801Majic.4801 Member ✭✭✭

    Fight smarter, not harder.

    "Not the same, real and true. True you feel inside. Always follow what is true." -- Sentry-skritt Bordekka
    "I am so much more important than whatever it is you're doing!" -- Explorer Hiffa
    "Harpy love hurts!" -- Shaman Shoba

  • I’m fine with being able to respawn and pick up where I left off in a boss fight. Would you prefer going back to the bad old days of GW1, where if you died, you had to restart the entire story instance over again from the top?

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @jciardha.1936 said:
    I’m fine with being able to respawn and pick up where I left off in a boss fight. Would you prefer going back to the bad old days of GW1, where if you died, you had to restart the entire story instance over again from the top?

    I prefered that.

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    There's a 200+ post thread on this page suggesting Story Content be made easier. Who should ArenaNet listen to?

    It literally can't be easier at this point because you can already clear everything with certainty.
    Any 'failure' or 'death' is rewarded with instant revival, while damaged mobs and bosses remain damaged.
    Repairing armour is free.
    Sometimes NPCs res you on the spot, sometimes not, very inconsistent.

    What I'm getting at is, people asking for the game to get easier fail to say that it's already impossible to fail

    Actually, I know lots of people that have a problem with some parts of the game, including story. You aren't being considerate of these people. If you want it harder, kitten yourself down in stats and go for it. It's easier to make it harder for yourself than it is for people to make it easier for themselves.

    see, thats the problem, giving a boss more health, or just cutting my own dps isn't gonna make the fight harder, just longer.
    attrition isn't a substitute for difficulty. We've seen that before, people asked for more difficult fights, so we got a few health sponge bosses.
    That's not right. Compare any random champion to the elites in the library. Every elite in the library had a unique ability you had to cope with.
    Regular champions on the other hand, just had 300% health, meaning you couldn't outDPS them alone.

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2018

    Balthazar was just like a filler, similiar plot to abadon revolt.

    @Ayakaru.6583, u cant make mobs harder due how gw2 pve comunity works, man they even said HoT was super hard at the begging...
    Anet had to remove the resistance that destroyers had to fire skills, since players could not understand that, so anet removed that, so fire spells do damage fire mobs w/o effort.... like any other spelll.
    I kinda wish mobs could clean condies, aply condies, remove and convert boons from players.... but gw2 would end probably with no players.
    It is a simple game to be carried with gimmicks just liek diablo is when ur on torment lvl and your gear allows u to wipe instance easy, but here it is not gear doing that but the gimmick of builds and team comp.

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Go play raids if you want challenge.

    Beating health sponges where most of aoe(only mechanics that mobs have.....) can be avoided doesnt seam that much of logical "hard content", and feels very artificial way to put a placebo in the game.

  • Haishao.6851Haishao.6851 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @ChronosCosmos.9450 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Go play raids if you want challenge.

    I already am, but I got into this game for the story.
    I played GW1 and GW2 because it has an amazing world, with amazing villains. And if you played GW1 you will know what I
    mean when I say how dumbed down GW2 has become.

    At this point it has nothing to do with 'wanting challenge' anymore. But the most basic respect we're supposed to have for our villains.
    Instead, our characters are just gods who can even taunt the actual gods at this point.

    Yeah, I feel you. GW1's story and characters were phenomenal. Shiro, Lich, Togo, Abbaddon, the 5 gods, Zaishen, and Heralds. Amazing. Eye of the north and the heroes had amazing backgrounds too.

    Of course that could have to do with the story telling more than the encounter difficulty. And of course the class and combat system were much more clear and the game did have the trinity in it and was indeed group based. It's amazing what kind of difference the trinity can make to combat encounters. You just didn't go out on a mission without 2 healers and a tank to take the initial aggro (though admittedly minions often filled that role but the role was there).

    GW1 didn't have trinity.
    There was no actual tanking class or mechanic. Tanking was done by exploiting max aggro range vs max attack distance which happened to be 1 step outside of aggro. People sent a character with damage avoiding skills to get beat up by the enemies, and everyone else stood at maximum distance, outside of the aggro bubble to attack from safety.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2018

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    There's a 200+ post thread on this page suggesting Story Content be made easier. Who should ArenaNet listen to?

    It literally can't be easier at this point because you can already clear everything with certainty.
    Any 'failure' or 'death' is rewarded with instant revival, while damaged mobs and bosses remain damaged.
    Repairing armour is free.
    Sometimes NPCs res you on the spot, sometimes not, very inconsistent.

    What I'm getting at is, people asking for the game to get easier fail to say that it's already impossible to fail

    Actually, I know lots of people that have a problem with some parts of the game, including story. You aren't being considerate of these people. If you want it harder, kitten yourself down in stats and go for it. It's easier to make it harder for yourself than it is for people to make it easier for themselves.

    see, thats the problem, giving a boss more health, or just cutting my own dps isn't gonna make the fight harder, just longer.
    attrition isn't a substitute for difficulty. We've seen that before, people asked for more difficult fights, so we got a few health sponge bosses.
    That's not right. Compare any random champion to the elites in the library. Every elite in the library had a unique ability you had to cope with.
    Regular champions on the other hand, just had 300% health, meaning you couldn't outDPS them alone.

    ... and Anet isn't going to abandon the market that sustains this game to make the game appeal to the fringe customers.

    Besides, you aren't correct anyways. If you don't think the game gets harder with different choices on your character, you just haven't tried it. if you want harder, you can make it harder for yourself.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • "I want more challenge in this game" - Well that's never going to happen. The suggestions that you handicap yourself and then play the game are hilarious as solutions as well. Why dont we just suggest that OP play the game with one hand while they're at it lol.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    "I want more challenge in this game" - Well that's never going to happen. The suggestions that you handicap yourself and then play the game are hilarious as solutions as well. Why dont we just suggest that OP play the game with one hand while they're at it lol.

    sure if s/he wants more challenge that will certainly do it.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2018

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    "I want more challenge in this game" - Well that's never going to happen. The suggestions that you handicap yourself and then play the game are hilarious as solutions as well. Why dont we just suggest that OP play the game with one hand while they're at it lol.

    What makes you think that? If he wants it harder and has the capability to make it harder for himself, that doesn't sound ridiculous as all ... it's the BEST solution he has. Even if Anet were to make the game harder ... even a PART of it ... how long do you think he would have to wait to get it?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Haishao.6851 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @ChronosCosmos.9450 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Go play raids if you want challenge.

    I already am, but I got into this game for the story.
    I played GW1 and GW2 because it has an amazing world, with amazing villains. And if you played GW1 you will know what I
    mean when I say how dumbed down GW2 has become.

    At this point it has nothing to do with 'wanting challenge' anymore. But the most basic respect we're supposed to have for our villains.
    Instead, our characters are just gods who can even taunt the actual gods at this point.

    Yeah, I feel you. GW1's story and characters were phenomenal. Shiro, Lich, Togo, Abbaddon, the 5 gods, Zaishen, and Heralds. Amazing. Eye of the north and the heroes had amazing backgrounds too.

    Of course that could have to do with the story telling more than the encounter difficulty. And of course the class and combat system were much more clear and the game did have the trinity in it and was indeed group based. It's amazing what kind of difference the trinity can make to combat encounters. You just didn't go out on a mission without 2 healers and a tank to take the initial aggro (though admittedly minions often filled that role but the role was there).

    GW1 didn't have trinity.
    There was no actual tanking class or mechanic. Tanking was done by exploiting max aggro range vs max attack distance which happened to be 1 step outside of aggro. People sent a character with damage avoiding skills to get beat up by the enemies, and everyone else stood at maximum distance, outside of the aggro bubble to attack from safety.

    Which is why I said "a tank to take the initial aggro". It still was a tank role even though it wasn't a tank class with taunt mechanics as we know from other games. Regardless of what you call it though, GW1 had a different system and did have healers as well, which were vital pretty much everywhere. Call it tanks or not, someone had to take that initial aggro and stay alive. And having that system also allowed different type of combat encounters. And that's the main point I was making.

    If I have to believe some of the people here who have raided in GW2, apparently the raid fights are pretty much the same type of thing as dungeon boss fights with a timer. That tells me that they are just not able to deliver more than what they have been in that sense and it's pretty much because of the combat system and classes that it is that way in my view.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Pretty Pixie.8603Pretty Pixie.8603 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    There's a 200+ post thread on this page suggesting Story Content be made easier. Who should ArenaNet listen to?

    It literally can't be easier at this point because you can already clear everything with certainty.
    Any 'failure' or 'death' is rewarded with instant revival, while damaged mobs and bosses remain damaged.
    Repairing armour is free.
    Sometimes NPCs res you on the spot, sometimes not, very inconsistent.

    What I'm getting at is, people asking for the game to get easier fail to say that it's already impossible to fail

    Remember the Caudacus fight in LS3? A lot of people were having huge problems with it. Being unable to complete an instance IS failure. As a six year vet I don’t think that boss was particularly hard, even before the nerf, but I’m under no illusion that everyone is equally experienced in this game. What is easy for you might be insurmountable for someone else.

    Ordo Dominican [ZEAL]
    Sea of Sorrows

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭

    @Menadena.7482 said:
    sigh

    Another 'I need a challenge' thread. You can come up with plenty of challenges. Like roll an alt and walk to Orr as soon as you rez. Or take on what is meant to be a group boss (that nobody does because it has a high failure rate) singlehandedly.

    This is part of why so many things in the world now are so kitteningly ridiculous to beat.

    I know right? Isn't it common sense that NOT everyone has the same play skill level? So what TC suggesting is to punish those who are not as good as him? And, how exactly does these penalties on other players benefit TC? Many have complained before that certain chapters in the story are already too challenging, but not for TC of course, and making them even harder or imposing penalties on failed attempts will drive players away, especially those new comers.

    TC if you think the story bosses are 'too easy' for you, like many have said before, go fight the boss with low gears or even bare-handed.

    Story mode is essential to play or complete, at least the first time, in order to unlock new events, maps, skins, etc. This mode is for everyone and not solely for players who think everything is too easy for them. Really.

  • Squirrel.6318Squirrel.6318 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    @Overlord RainyDay.2084 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Go play raids if you want challenge.

    I already am, but I got into this game for the story.
    I played GW1 and GW2 because it has an amazing world, with amazing villains. And if you played GW1 you will know what I
    mean when I say how dumbed down GW2 has become.

    At this point it has nothing to do with 'wanting challenge' anymore. But the most basic respect we're supposed to have for our villains.
    Instead, our characters are just gods who can even taunt the actual gods at this point.

    I played GW1 too, and i have no idea what you're talking about. The big boss fights in story missions weren't exactly rough there either. I remember getting to the Lich to be much harder than actually killing him, Abbadon not being as threatening as he looked, and Shiro and the Great Destroyer being easily-cheesed pushovers. The final boss of EotN, built up over the entire game as a legendary foe, can be annihilated in a minute, with most of that time spent walking over to him so you can cast one single pain inverter.

    If you wanted decent challenge you didn't get it in the story. You went to elite areas, or went vanquishing, and even then, most of the tougher vanquishes were only bad if you pulled too many or RNG gave you an obnoxious enemy comp to deal with. Speaking of taunting gods to their face, Abbadon in hard mode is not nearly as difficult as fighting a group of regular awakened with 3 cavaliers if you forgot to bring frozen soil.

    Admittedly, it would be nice if there was an optional hard mode for story bosses, even if it was just "Allies don't res you, and enemy HP always resets to 100% if you die".

    To be fair those bosses were much harder and actual "EPIC" boss battles than the ones we have in GW2. They were exactly the right amount of difficult we need in GW2 story.

    Even just the regular missions were difficult, later on, I was pretty good I had 2500 hours, but even I used wiki all the time. Which mobs to be careful of, this and that. In GW2, you can literally just run in, if you die, restart, do it again, restart do it again, i've never failed in GW2, but in GW1 i've failed a mission or dungeon maybe at least hundred times over all seven or eight of my characters.

    I think the last mission in HoT was the best one so far, in terms of challenge.

  • Jumpin Lumpix.6108Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    "I want more challenge in this game" - Well that's never going to happen. The suggestions that you handicap yourself and then play the game are hilarious as solutions as well. Why dont we just suggest that OP play the game with one hand while they're at it lol.

    What makes you think that? If he wants it harder and has the capability to make it harder for himself, that doesn't sound ridiculous as all ... it's the BEST solution he has. Even if Anet were to make the game harder ... even a PART of it ... how long do you think he would have to wait to get it?

    Because a lot of the psychology associated with enjoying playing a difficult game is by comparing your ability to beat said content relative to everyone else. If you independently put a handicap on yourself then you're playing in a vacuum and you might as well blindfold yourself or come up with some ridiculous gimmick to make it harder. Meanwhile everyone else is playing it at full effort, and when you compare what you've accomplished to others its the same, and means nothing relative to other players, thus reducing the motivation and joy associated with playing difficult content.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    Id be interested in another layer to the challenge. I want more rewards that are skillgated or current expensive rewards that have skillgate alternatives. Eg. Mystic tribute or 77 clovers for x number of LI or boss kp.

  • SunTzu.4513SunTzu.4513 Member ✭✭✭

    I see it more like '' i want more enjoyable and fun encounter/difficulty''. Especially story bosses are more annoying than hard. Big hp pools paired with tons of aoe carpets packed together with a more or less cluncky mechanik are anything but not hard to beat. Imo you can beat any (ls) story boss just by using your aa and for some rare encounter using your utility skills. I have more fun in soloing bountys or stuff like this than doing the story bosses.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    Here's one idea, to make the meta's more exciting.
    Close off the meta area, if you die, you die.
    That way, people will actually have to work together, and keep each other up, rather than "I'm not rezzing you, there's a waypoint down the hall".

    If someone is down, yes, then help them back up. But rezzing a dead player takes forever, therefore the use of the nearest WP is a must-do.

    Your suggestion is not going to help to make things better, on the contrary. Also, I don't get what it has to do with the topic.

  • googel.3278googel.3278 Member ✭✭✭

    they need more challenging skins so that milking players would be easy, moar money

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    "I want more challenge in this game" - Well that's never going to happen. The suggestions that you handicap yourself and then play the game are hilarious as solutions as well. Why dont we just suggest that OP play the game with one hand while they're at it lol.

    What makes you think that? If he wants it harder and has the capability to make it harder for himself, that doesn't sound ridiculous as all ... it's the BEST solution he has. Even if Anet were to make the game harder ... even a PART of it ... how long do you think he would have to wait to get it?

    Because a lot of the psychology associated with enjoying playing a difficult game is by comparing your ability to beat said content relative to everyone else. If you independently put a handicap on yourself then you're playing in a vacuum and you might as well blindfold yourself or come up with some ridiculous gimmick to make it harder. Meanwhile everyone else is playing it at full effort, and when you compare what you've accomplished to others its the same, and means nothing relative to other players, thus reducing the motivation and joy associated with playing difficult content.

    So we need harder story content so that a certain section of players can assuage their fragile egos? They must feel superior to others to enjoy the game? So it's not really about hard content(as the player could handicap themselves to create hard conditions) but rather about being able to say "Look at me! Look at me! I'm better than you!"

    We already have competitive modes in the game.

    No?
    If you read any of the discussion at all you would've known that we want harder bosses because we can't them serious as villains if they're as weak as average skritt.

    It has nothing to do with ego, we got raids for that

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    Here's one idea, to make the meta's more exciting.
    Close off the meta area, if you die, you die.
    That way, people will actually have to work together, and keep each other up, rather than "I'm not rezzing you, there's a waypoint down the hall".

    If someone is down, yes, then help them back up. But rezzing a dead player takes forever, therefore the use of the nearest WP is a must-do.

    Your suggestion is not going to help to make things better, on the contrary. Also, I don't get what it has to do with the topic.

    If you make rezzing impossible during the meta end fights, people will be more thankful (and dependent) of support classes, healing, and pick ups from being downed.
    Thus a challenge comes into play where you prepare your squad, and have to actively not die, since a lot of people run glass build because they know they can just res down the hall and run back into the fight making death pointless altogether

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    Here's one idea, to make the meta's more exciting.
    Close off the meta area, if you die, you die.
    That way, people will actually have to work together, and keep each other up, rather than "I'm not rezzing you, there's a waypoint down the hall".

    If someone is down, yes, then help them back up. But rezzing a dead player takes forever, therefore the use of the nearest WP is a must-do.

    Your suggestion is not going to help to make things better, on the contrary. Also, I don't get what it has to do with the topic.

    If you make rezzing impossible during the meta end fights, people will be more thankful (and dependent) of support classes, healing, and pick ups from being downed.
    Thus a challenge comes into play where you prepare your squad, and have to actively not die, since a lot of people run glass build because they know they can just res down the hall and run back into the fight making death pointless altogether

    Yea it will be what the hell healer why dident you heal me you kitten f..... in chat that will so much better.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    "I want more challenge in this game" - Well that's never going to happen. The suggestions that you handicap yourself and then play the game are hilarious as solutions as well. Why dont we just suggest that OP play the game with one hand while they're at it lol.

    What makes you think that? If he wants it harder and has the capability to make it harder for himself, that doesn't sound ridiculous as all ... it's the BEST solution he has. Even if Anet were to make the game harder ... even a PART of it ... how long do you think he would have to wait to get it?

    Because a lot of the psychology associated with enjoying playing a difficult game is by comparing your ability to beat said content relative to everyone else. If you independently put a handicap on yourself then you're playing in a vacuum and you might as well blindfold yourself or come up with some ridiculous gimmick to make it harder. Meanwhile everyone else is playing it at full effort, and when you compare what you've accomplished to others its the same, and means nothing relative to other players, thus reducing the motivation and joy associated with playing difficult content.

    So we need harder story content so that a certain section of players can assuage their fragile egos? They must feel superior to others to enjoy the game? So it's not really about hard content(as the player could handicap themselves to create hard conditions) but rather about being able to say "Look at me! Look at me! I'm better than you!"

    We already have competitive modes in the game.

    No?
    If you read any of the discussion at all you would've known that we want harder bosses because we can't them serious as villains if they're as weak as average skritt.

    It has nothing to do with ego, we got raids for that

    Well it's of course factually false that story bosses are as weak as the average skritt. As a casual noob I can kill an average skritt in a couple of seconds and there's no way I can manage that. I assume that you're just using it as a matter of speech but in this sort of discussion I feel that doing this is a detriment to the discussion.

    I get that the story bosses are too easy for you and that thereby you do not take them seriously. However, I think that puts you in a rather small minority because it seems to me, and this is of course just my feeling, that most people either don't find them that easy or don't mind or care.

    I do admit to being a bit surprised about how dismissive you are towards raids here as that is considered the hardest content in the game, although when I hear raiders speak of these boss fights it's apparently just dungeon bosses with a timer on it.

    Personally I think a hard mode version of the story bosses could be an elegant solution, however, there is one problem. How hard should hard mode be? If it's very hard then very few people will be able to complete them and then it will become an ego thing for those few and a frustration for many others. So if they don't quite make them as hard, there is likely to be another post like this saying that hard mode is just as easy as killing the average skritt ;)

    And there is a very important principle I'd like to discuss with reference to that. I phrase this principle as follows: "when you move, the borders move with you". So if they moved towards a hard mode version, it won't be long before people want a super hard mode version etc. So a step in a direction often leads to more steps or they are at least requested then. For ArenaNet, this is something they have to consider as well. What will happen if we do add a hard mode to story bosses? For example, if the next expansion has this built in, how many people will then come here and complain and complain that this should be done retroactively etc.

    So now you've raised a point which I think is a fair point, but in the context of the game I'm not sure if ArenaNet will want to go that way. However, if they were to go that way they might open a few new cans of worms and get more negativity and complaints than they are now and so they are not just committing to a change or something new but all the consequences that come with implementing such a thing. And sure, you can't play safe all the time, but there has to be a significant enough chance that it will be considered a positive change and especially if hard mode bosses would drop better loot, which is fair, then also the complaints of the more casual players will come about that. And the problem there is that these casual players are probably a very important part of the player base.

    However, if there is enough interest and they balance it right, then it could be a good thing. Those are some big ifs though...

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Einsof.1457Einsof.1457 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    Agree with OP 100%. To this day the most satisfying gameplay experience I have had in Guild Wars 2 was beating Mordremoth solo during my HoT run. That was epic. That fight had perfect balance and challenge. I have amazing memories because it was challenging and I actually felt something. I have basically no memorable PoF experiences.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Einsof.1457 said:
    Agree with OP 100%. To this day the most satisfying gameplay experience I have had in Guild Wars 2 was beating Mordremoth solo during my HoT run. That was epic. That fight had perfect balance and challenge. I have amazing memories because it was challenging and I actually felt something. I have basically no memorable PoF experiences.

    and for a much larger population of the game HoT was to hard for them which is why ANET nerfed it twice, and then went the PoF Route with the next expansion. Hell look at the Eater of Souls battle and the complaints it got, and still gets. They can see the metrics for who clears what content, and the want the vast majority of players to clear the story. So, unless having a hardmode is an option it shouldnt be hard from the get go.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Kumouta.4985Kumouta.4985 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    I'd also love to see a bit more challenge. The most fun i've had in PvE in a while was with killing the golem boss in the olmakhan place without dying & within the time limit on the day that that LS was released (idk if it's nerfed now, ppl complain all the time and remotely challenging bosses get turned into moas (think caudecus))
    and being rez-able within story battles should really be toned down to only be possible once or twice before it resets. Just rushing a god and dying over and over but still winning is just completely stupid. Maybe add an infantile mode that gives you 3k toughness or smth if someone dies ten times in the same story instance.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    "I want more challenge in this game" - Well that's never going to happen. The suggestions that you handicap yourself and then play the game are hilarious as solutions as well. Why dont we just suggest that OP play the game with one hand while they're at it lol.

    What makes you think that? If he wants it harder and has the capability to make it harder for himself, that doesn't sound ridiculous as all ... it's the BEST solution he has. Even if Anet were to make the game harder ... even a PART of it ... how long do you think he would have to wait to get it?

    Because a lot of the psychology associated with enjoying playing a difficult game is by comparing your ability to beat said content relative to everyone else. If you independently put a handicap on yourself then you're playing in a vacuum and you might as well blindfold yourself or come up with some ridiculous gimmick to make it harder. Meanwhile everyone else is playing it at full effort, and when you compare what you've accomplished to others its the same, and means nothing relative to other players, thus reducing the motivation and joy associated with playing difficult content.

    Sure ... but what does that have to do with the fact that this game is too easy for him? There isn't a difficulty knob he can turn up, so that's his option.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • sorudo.9054sorudo.9054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    play raids with just your weapons, white ones.
    there, a challenge to overcome, you can even do this against story bosses.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sorudo.9054 said:
    play raids with just your weapons, white ones.
    there, a challenge to overcome, you can even do this against story bosses.

    can make a alt get a low drop like level 2-5 white weapons to make it even harder.

  • @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Go play raids if you want challenge.

    I already am, but I got into this game for the story.
    I played GW1 and GW2 because it has an amazing world, with amazing villains. And if you played GW1 you will know what I
    mean when I say how dumbed down GW2 has become.

    At this point it has nothing to do with 'wanting challenge' anymore. But the most basic respect we're supposed to have for our villains.
    Instead, our characters are just gods who can even taunt the actual gods at this point.

    I played GW1, I don't know what you mean. GW1 story had plenty of ways to cheese the story missions as well. Shiro in Factions was probably the easiest final encounter in the franchise because it was so easy to cheese him with gimmick builds. Other places where story wasn't so front and center was where the real challenge of GW1 was. I see the same with GW2, the more challenging content is in the raids and upper fractals, not the main story missions.

  • sorudo.9054sorudo.9054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    compared to GW, GW2 is baby easy.
    i tried to get back in GW, i was slaughtered so easily i didn't even know how i could lose that fast, in GW2 it's the exact opposite.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    Well if your point is that this game has no interesting mechanics, then you can blame the combat system for that.

    That's not my point at all. I find the mechanics, especially of the more recent bosses to be good enough and interesting. I was merely responding to the that comment about handicapping myself if I want difficulty. "Use white gear!", "play dungeons at their intended level!", "do 5-bear bow ranger dungeon runs!", "do naked fractal runs!" and similar other ways to handicap yourself in order to increase the difficulty. That's a dumb way to increase to increase the difficulty, because no matter what YOU do as a player, the mechanics won't change. Sure if fight a Moa in Queensdale naked and unarmed as a Thief, it might become a hard fight. But it won't be an interesting/fun fight. That's my point, aimed at those who want the difficulty lowered, so those that want a higher difficulty can kitten themselves to get difficult content.

  • Healix.5819Healix.5819 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    @sorudo.9054 said:
    compared to GW, GW2 is baby easy.
    i tried to get back in GW, i was slaughtered so easily i didn't even know how i could lose that fast, in GW2 it's the exact opposite.

    GW1 can be impossible if you try to play it casually with a random build, or a joke that you can practically AFK through on hard mode with the meta hero team. GW2 is similar, in that it can be a joke as a necromancer or dodge or die on an elementalist.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sorudo.9054 said:
    compared to GW, GW2 is baby easy.
    i tried to get back in GW, i was slaughtered so easily i didn't even know how i could lose that fast, in GW2 it's the exact opposite.

    I went back to GW just today. Fired up Domain of Anguish and went semi afk at it, watching youtube on my second monitor while "playing", which means letting my heroes do all the work. And obviously no need for a group with other people either. I think there is a huge misunderstanding about the difficulty of GW. GW2 requires an actual group of humans do play the "endgame", in GW it was all an easy solo experience. Maybe I had well built Heroes and didn't notice this "challenge" in GW.

    Side note: talking about after Eye of the North was released, that made even professions pointless. Of course much earlier you couldn't solo everything, because for example Henchmen aren't allowed in the Underworld. That stopped being the case when they allowed 7-hero teams.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    Well if your point is that this game has no interesting mechanics, then you can blame the combat system for that.

    That's not my point at all. I find the mechanics, especially of the more recent bosses to be good enough and interesting. I was merely responding to the that comment about handicapping myself if I want difficulty. "Use white gear!", "play dungeons at their intended level!", "do 5-bear bow ranger dungeon runs!", "do naked fractal runs!" and similar other ways to handicap yourself in order to increase the difficulty. That's a dumb way to increase to increase the difficulty, because no matter what YOU do as a player, the mechanics won't change. Sure if fight a Moa in Queensdale naked and unarmed as a Thief, it might become a hard fight. But it won't be an interesting/fun fight. That's my point, aimed at those who want the difficulty lowered, so those that want a higher difficulty can kitten themselves to get difficult content.

    Sure but if the fights are interesting enough but lack the challenge, going into it with lesser gear will increase the challenge level of beating the fight. So why wouldn't it be fun if the mechanics are fine and you just make it harder because you equip lesser gear?

    Tell me, if the mechanics are fine, then what is the problem exactly?

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    When I want challenge from a game I want encounters that test the limits of my character's abilities, at his best, while my own abilities as a player are also stretched. Self handicapping, by not using my character to his full capacity (such as by not using his best gear), does not fulfill that desire for challenge.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    Sure but if the fights are interesting enough but lack the challenge, going into it with lesser gear will increase the challenge level of beating the fight. So why wouldn't it be fun if the mechanics are fine and you just make it harder because you equip lesser gear?

    Tell me, if the mechanics are fine, then what is the problem exactly?

    Again, you are going backwards. If the mechanics are fine, then I have no issue with it, unless those mechanics can be avoided/skipped because of the lack of challenge. An interesting mechanic has a high penalty for failure. If it doesn't have a high penalty for failure then it's no longer an interesting mechanic because you simply skip it.

    Gorseval is a perfect example, it has some very interesting mechanics (as it's a Raid boss) but most of it can be simply ignored or skipped because there is no challenge (other than "do your rotation well" challenge). Legendary Wyvern (all of them) fly-by attacks (with their breath weapons) can instant kill players, making their "break their bar before they fly away" mechanic important. If you remove the challenge by making their flames tickle, it's no longer a challenge and it's no longer an interesting mechanic. If Liadri's shadowfell attack simply did 100 damage to you, then it wouldn't be an interesting mechanic to move away of them.

    You can't have an interesting mechanic, without it also being somewhat challenging.

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