I want more challenge in this game - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

I want more challenge in this game

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Comments

  • @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    I mean, for real, why should we have to take Balthazar and Joko seriously, if we LITERALLY cannot lose to them?
    Every duel with a boss follows the same pattern, you put in half an effort, and you kill the boss with easy.
    Or you just laze away, half-minded, and the boss kills you a few times, but no worries, because THERE ARE NO FAIL CONDITIONS.
    There literally isn't a point to having a health bar, because once the health bar hits zero, it just goes back to full and you can keep fighting.
    Even if you're somehow so bad you keep dying until you're in your underwear, as long as you keep hitting that respawn button, you can kill Balthazar in your swim shorts.

    So thats what I'm asking, why do we even care about the big villains if they're INCAPABLE of defeating us? We can literally keep nibbling away at them at our weakest, and they can't do anything to stop us.

    And it's not just from a mechanical point of view, we're even immortal in the story.
    Apparantly, having died once, makes us immune to dying again, according to LS4-3, which didn't make any sense to me, at all.
    What, so we're incorporeal now? the beetles can't dig into us, lay eggs, and eat us up from the inside because our bodies have already been dead once before?

    I am PLEADING you, anet, give the bosses some fail conditions, let them win for a change. Give us a reason to take their fights seriously?
    Otherwise we can all just go on vacation and send a swarm of Skritt and Quaggans to go kill the next boss.

    The whole talk about Generation III bugs had me hoping there would be a story point where Joko unleashes the plague, and we lose, and we have to cleanse, purge, or downright burn down an entire society or something. To keep it from spreading.
    When we stormed that palace of his, and the gates broken, I thought "here it is".
    Only to have a bunch of ghosts say "we'll keep them contained".
    Then what was the whole point of the plague?
    There was never any risk if we only needed a few ghosts to end the plague.
    The plague was a sort of MacGuffin, but now it's just a background drop.

    Give the villains some slack, anet, please, give us a reason to actually WANT to defeat them

    Have you played POF story? don't you remember that we died vs Balthazar it wasn't so easy, we were in the underworld.
    Spoil alert: we will be victorious vs all the next ennemies in GW2.

    Maybe you prefer loosing and taking hours to beat one ennemy?

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Steve The Cynic.3217 said:
    I feel compelled to make mock of the OP. I just logged in to a character who was by the Dewclaw waypoint in the extreme south of the Iron Marches.

    Honest to Grenth (it was on Kylara Nightsong, the Purple Reaper), I saw a fellow player attack a yellow-name Black Sheep. He lost. He got downed, then he got defeated and mapped out. From "attack sheep" to "defeated" was about four seconds.

    Is that challenging enough? I mean, sure, you can exit from the Plains of Ashford into the Iron Marches, so he might have been only, say, level 10-15, but...

    Sure, you can let yourself be defeated. I have seen characters defeated by using a lunge skill too close to a cliff. That doesnt mean that there was any actual challenge involved.

    Oddly enough, I have seen a random neutral animal (a boar as I recall) kill a veteran.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    Sure but if the fights are interesting enough but lack the challenge, going into it with lesser gear will increase the challenge level of beating the fight. So why wouldn't it be fun if the mechanics are fine and you just make it harder because you equip lesser gear?

    Tell me, if the mechanics are fine, then what is the problem exactly?

    Again, you are going backwards. If the mechanics are fine, then I have no issue with it, unless those mechanics can be avoided/skipped because of the lack of challenge. An interesting mechanic has a high penalty for failure. If it doesn't have a high penalty for failure then it's no longer an interesting mechanic because you simply skip it.

    Gorseval is a perfect example, it has some very interesting mechanics (as it's a Raid boss) but most of it can be simply ignored or skipped because there is no challenge (other than "do your rotation well" challenge). Legendary Wyvern (all of them) fly-by attacks (with their breath weapons) can instant kill players, making their "break their bar before they fly away" mechanic important. If you remove the challenge by making their flames tickle, it's no longer a challenge and it's no longer an interesting mechanic. If Liadri's shadowfell attack simply did 100 damage to you, then it wouldn't be an interesting mechanic to move away of them.

    You can't have an interesting mechanic, without it also being somewhat challenging.

    I am not going backwards but am simply trying to determine what the issue is. Could you perhaps simply state without using the term "if" whether you find the mechanics of story bosses fine or not in this game.

    At first I thought you were not. Then you told me I was wrong. And now you tell me that there is an issue.

    I'm just trying to figure out where you stand, that's all.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    I'm just trying to figure out where you stand, that's all.

    There is no universal answer for every mechanic, but, since Heart of Thorns the boss fights have improved A LOT. Path of Fire also has some excellent mechanics. There are some fights that need improvements but mechanic wise I can say that the game has gone a very long way since the damage sponges of the original personal story.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    I'm just trying to figure out where you stand, that's all.

    There is no universal answer for every mechanic, but, since Heart of Thorns the boss fights have improved A LOT. Path of Fire also has some excellent mechanics. There are some fights that need improvements but mechanic wise I can say that the game has gone a very long way since the damage sponges of the original personal story.

    Ok thanks. That's a clear answer.

    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Taygus.4571Taygus.4571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    Don't you think that they added the rezzing because players werent able to complete the instances? I means it's not like anyone wants to rez rush, they do so because they can't beat it otherwise.

  • Warscythes.9307Warscythes.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

    I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

    I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60% or a flat number. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

  • You want more challenge, give yourself a handicap. Try doing story with no armor.

  • Well, not all tough story boss encounters need to be made possible by cheapening it with a deliberate corpse rush. Anet could show a bit of creativity to set up why you're allowed to continue this fight after being defeated. For example:

    Balthazar revives you if you're downed in the Departing, repeating various lines insulting your weakness.

    This is what Anet has done already and every major story boss encounter should have something like this instead of a lazy revive and start from where you left off.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

    I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

    I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

    You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

    The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

    That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

    Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this kitten and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Warscythes.9307Warscythes.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

    I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

    I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

    You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

    The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

    That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

    Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this kitten and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

    I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    Then we get back to the "ask for advice" part (from the other thread on the subject). If you can't beat content that lots of others did, ask how. You know some years ago the internet was full of guides and advice on how to beat certain encounters, or even entire games. For some reason the current gamer generation is willing to give up or ask for nerfs when they can't beat content, instead of asking for help. Because more often than not, it's their own build choice or approach to the content that's the problem and there is no problem with the content itself.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    Don't you think that they added the rezzing because players werent able to complete the instances? I means it's not like anyone wants to rez rush, they do so because they can't beat it otherwise.

    I don't think so because there are encounters that do not allow it, like Mordremoth for example. If it was an intentional feature to allow players to beat the content, then it would work everywhere. I think it's mostly a leftover that applies to certain situations but not others.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

    I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

    I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

    You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

    The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

    That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

    Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this kitten and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

    I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

    Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

    Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

    When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Warscythes.9307Warscythes.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

    I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

    I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

    You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

    The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

    That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

    Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this kitten and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

    I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

    Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

    Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

    When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

    I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

    I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

    You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

    The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

    That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

    Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this kitten and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

    I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

    Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

    Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

    When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

    Sure having to raid will keep certain players out but enough people passed in FFXIV to progress the story so that it was never considered an issue. I am sure that there are people who still fail the current GW2 story because they just don't have the reflex to glide, hit and move at the same time or even do certain puzzles. Do we want to lower the difficulty even more? Because at a certain point you just have to stop. Nobody here in this thread want a raid boss in the story. However I think we can agree that there should be a baseline for how difficult should be and that the current status of corpse rush can be improved upon.

    Also I don't think GW2 ever advertised it to be easy. It is casual and being casual doesn't mean it is easy. GW2 is known to be easy to pick up due to no sub fee, it is easy to join group on open world due to dynamic events, and it is easy to come back because there is no gear trendmill. However I have never seen ads where it says this game is so easy to play. In fact I would argue GW2 is harder in terms of game mechanics compared to other mainstream MMOs. GW2 is a hybrid action tab MMO should by definition requires better reflex than tab MMOs. It offers a lot more customization options in terms of stats, traits and skills that again by definition makes it more difficult compare to other MMOs because you can make a very very bad build. FFXIV also marketed towards casual players with a personal story, in fact it is known for its elaborate personal story and robust casual gameplay thanks to its crafting system. Yet again having required raid is not an issue in that game. Players adapted and overcame the challenges and all is good. People will get better if there are enough incentives.

    I find the boss fights boring because I literally cannot fail. That is it. I don't expect raid boss tier mechanics nor perfect dps rotations to beat the boss. But I wish that there exist a way for you to fail. That is really it.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

    I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

    I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

    You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

    The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

    That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

    Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this kitten and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

    I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

    Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

    Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

    When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

    I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

    I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

    You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

    The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

    That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

    Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this kitten and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

    I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

    Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

    Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

    When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

    Sure having to raid will keep certain players out but enough people passed in FFXIV to progress the story so that it was never considered an issue. I am sure that there are people who still fail the current GW2 story because they just don't have the reflex to glide, hit and move at the same time or even do certain puzzles. Do we want to lower the difficulty even more? Because at a certain point you just have to stop. Nobody here in this thread want a raid boss in the story. However I think we can agree that there should be a baseline for how difficult should be and that the current status of corpse rush can be improved upon.

    Also I don't think GW2 ever advertised it to be easy. It is casual and being casual doesn't mean it is easy. GW2 is known to be easy to pick up due to no sub fee, it is easy to join group on open world due to dynamic events, and it is easy to come back because there is no gear trendmill. However I have never seen ads where it says this game is so easy to play. In fact I would argue GW2 is harder in terms of game mechanics compared to other mainstream MMOs. GW2 is a hybrid action tab MMO should by definition requires better reflex than tab MMOs. It offers a lot more customization options in terms of stats, traits and skills that again by definition makes it more difficult compare to other MMOs because you can make a very very bad build. FFXIV also marketed towarded casual players with a personal story, in fact it is known for its elaborate personal story and robust casual gameplay thanks to its crafting system. Yet again having required raid is not an issue in that game. Players adapted and overcame the challenges and all is good.

    I find the boss fights boring because I literally cannot fail. That is it. I don't expect raid boss tier mechanics nor perfection dps rotations to beat the boss. But I wish that there exist a way for you to fail. That is really it.

    Well, all I can say is that the bosses aren't too difficult for me, but I do find the fights boring and too lengthy in the sense that it distracts me from the actual story. So I just end up ignoring the story and just slugging my way through it to get it done.

    I cannot however see myself as the standard and I do think that if, as suggested dying means starting over, it will cause an uproar in a part of the community. I do not have numbers but my feeling tells me that this part of the community is too big too ignore. GW2 as a more casual game, still attracted players who want challenge. That's actually what's weird, considering what GW2 is. It's about farming and gathering. LS introduced zones you can farm daily. And all to create ascended and legendary stuff and various cosmetics. The core was never about challenge.

    Now the OP's request isn't a strange one, but it's one that might, in the context of GW2, backfire quite a bit.

    In GW2 the main challenge is to not get bored before you reach your goals. Casual players tend to be more patient but also don't want to have walls put in front of them, even if you can walk around them.

    And hey, I'm not trying to tell ArenaNet what to do. If they think this is a great idea then by all means. I just expect there to be a big uproar. I could be wrong, but the risk is ArenaNet's to run and not mine. So I'll let them decide. My issues with story bosses are different than this.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Hyper Cutter.9376Hyper Cutter.9376 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    They removed it from dungeons because dungeons were always intended to be challenging (they were the original endgame, after all). Story missions really weren't.

  • @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

    I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

    I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

    You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

    The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

    That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

    Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this kitten and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

    I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

    Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

    Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

    When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

    I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

    I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

    You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

    The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

    That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

    Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this kitten and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

    I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

    Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

    Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

    When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

    Sure having to raid will keep certain players out but enough people passed in FFXIV to progress the story so that it was never considered an issue. I am sure that there are people who still fail the current GW2 story because they just don't have the reflex to glide, hit and move at the same time or even do certain puzzles. Do we want to lower the difficulty even more? Because at a certain point you just have to stop. Nobody here in this thread want a raid boss in the story. However I think we can agree that there should be a baseline for how difficult should be and that the current status of corpse rush can be improved upon.

    Also I don't think GW2 ever advertised it to be easy. It is casual and being casual doesn't mean it is easy. GW2 is known to be easy to pick up due to no sub fee, it is easy to join group on open world due to dynamic events, and it is easy to come back because there is no gear trendmill. However I have never seen ads where it says this game is so easy to play. In fact I would argue GW2 is harder in terms of game mechanics compared to other mainstream MMOs. GW2 is a hybrid action tab MMO should by definition requires better reflex than tab MMOs. It offers a lot more customization options in terms of stats, traits and skills that again by definition makes it more difficult compare to other MMOs because you can make a very very bad build. FFXIV also marketed towards casual players with a personal story, in fact it is known for its elaborate personal story and robust casual gameplay thanks to its crafting system. Yet again having required raid is not an issue in that game. Players adapted and overcame the challenges and all is good. People will get better if there are enough incentives.

    I find the boss fights boring because I literally cannot fail. That is it. I don't expect raid boss tier mechanics nor perfect dps rotations to beat the boss. But I wish that there exist a way for you to fail. That is really it.

    Both WoW and FF14 have normal (easy) difficulty settings for their raids and can be easily done once released.
    This is why they can put story inside the raids.

    No images or emojis allowed. Signatures can be up to 300 characters long.

  • @Ashen.2907 said:
    When I want challenge from a game I want encounters that test the limits of my character's abilities, at his best, while my own abilities as a player are also stretched. Self handicapping, by not using my character to his full capacity (such as by not using his best gear), does not fulfill that desire for challenge.

    Unfortunately this isn't a single player game and is filled with players of varying degrees of ability. Should Anet tune the story to test the limits of ops ability...…. That means that anyone that doesn't equal or surpass op's ability level will effectively be shut out of the story(if the idea of you die you start again is enacted). Anyone want to guess how many players will get shut out of the story? I am guessing that being shut out of the games story would be a dealbreaker for quite a few customers. Anet can't afford to lose any customers.

  • Dashingsteel.3410Dashingsteel.3410 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    @Ashen.2907 said:
    When I want challenge from a game I want encounters that test the limits of my character's abilities, at his best, while my own abilities as a player are also stretched. Self handicapping, by not using my character to his full capacity (such as by not using his best gear), does not fulfill that desire for challenge.

    forum duplicated my post from above

  • Warscythes.9307Warscythes.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    @YoukiNeko.6047 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

    I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

    I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

    You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

    The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

    That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

    Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this kitten and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

    I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

    Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

    Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

    When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

    I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

    I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

    You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

    The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

    That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

    Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this kitten and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

    I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

    Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

    Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

    When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

    Sure having to raid will keep certain players out but enough people passed in FFXIV to progress the story so that it was never considered an issue. I am sure that there are people who still fail the current GW2 story because they just don't have the reflex to glide, hit and move at the same time or even do certain puzzles. Do we want to lower the difficulty even more? Because at a certain point you just have to stop. Nobody here in this thread want a raid boss in the story. However I think we can agree that there should be a baseline for how difficult should be and that the current status of corpse rush can be improved upon.

    Also I don't think GW2 ever advertised it to be easy. It is casual and being casual doesn't mean it is easy. GW2 is known to be easy to pick up due to no sub fee, it is easy to join group on open world due to dynamic events, and it is easy to come back because there is no gear trendmill. However I have never seen ads where it says this game is so easy to play. In fact I would argue GW2 is harder in terms of game mechanics compared to other mainstream MMOs. GW2 is a hybrid action tab MMO should by definition requires better reflex than tab MMOs. It offers a lot more customization options in terms of stats, traits and skills that again by definition makes it more difficult compare to other MMOs because you can make a very very bad build. FFXIV also marketed towards casual players with a personal story, in fact it is known for its elaborate personal story and robust casual gameplay thanks to its crafting system. Yet again having required raid is not an issue in that game. Players adapted and overcame the challenges and all is good. People will get better if there are enough incentives.

    I find the boss fights boring because I literally cannot fail. That is it. I don't expect raid boss tier mechanics nor perfect dps rotations to beat the boss. But I wish that there exist a way for you to fail. That is really it.

    Both WoW and FF14 have normal (easy) difficulty settings for their raids and can be easily done once released.
    This is why they can put story inside the raids.

    Yes the FFXIV's raid is the normal difficulty. However it is still a fully functional group raid with raid mechanics and a fail condition. It is not WoW LFR difficulty definitely but it is not faceroll. Unless you want to say that the story raid in FFXIV is easier than GW2's story mode? Because the biggest concern pointed out by the OP is that he wants a condition to fail the story which is something that is present in FFXIV's story raids. Yes echo exists when you fail which I support in adding; but most importantly I just want a fail condition.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

    I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

    I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

    You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

    The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

    That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

    Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this kitten and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

    I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

    Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

    Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

    When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

    I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

    I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

    You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

    The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

    That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

    Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this kitten and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

    I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

    Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

    Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

    When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

    Sure having to raid will keep certain players out but enough people passed in FFXIV to progress the story so that it was never considered an issue. I am sure that there are people who still fail the current GW2 story because they just don't have the reflex to glide, hit and move at the same time or even do certain puzzles. Do we want to lower the difficulty even more? Because at a certain point you just have to stop. Nobody here in this thread want a raid boss in the story. However I think we can agree that there should be a baseline for how difficult should be and that the current status of corpse rush can be improved upon.

    Also I don't think GW2 ever advertised it to be easy. It is casual and being casual doesn't mean it is easy. GW2 is known to be easy to pick up due to no sub fee, it is easy to join group on open world due to dynamic events, and it is easy to come back because there is no gear trendmill. However I have never seen ads where it says this game is so easy to play. In fact I would argue GW2 is harder in terms of game mechanics compared to other mainstream MMOs. GW2 is a hybrid action tab MMO should by definition requires better reflex than tab MMOs. It offers a lot more customization options in terms of stats, traits and skills that again by definition makes it more difficult compare to other MMOs because you can make a very very bad build. FFXIV also marketed towarded casual players with a personal story, in fact it is known for its elaborate personal story and robust casual gameplay thanks to its crafting system. Yet again having required raid is not an issue in that game. Players adapted and overcame the challenges and all is good.

    I find the boss fights boring because I literally cannot fail. That is it. I don't expect raid boss tier mechanics nor perfection dps rotations to beat the boss. But I wish that there exist a way for you to fail. That is really it.

    Well, all I can say is that the bosses aren't too difficult for me, but I do find the fights boring and too lengthy in the sense that it distracts me from the actual story. So I just end up ignoring the story and just slugging my way through it to get it done.

    I cannot however see myself as the standard and I do think that if, as suggested dying means starting over, it will cause an uproar in a part of the community. I do not have numbers but my feeling tells me that this part of the community is too big too ignore. GW2 as a more casual game, still attracted players who want challenge. That's actually what's weird, considering what GW2 is. It's about farming and gathering. LS introduced zones you can farm daily. And all to create ascended and legendary stuff and various cosmetics. The core was never about challenge.

    Now the OP's request isn't a strange one, but it's one that might, in the context of GW2, backfire quite a bit.

    In GW2 the main challenge is to not get bored before you reach your goals. Casual players tend to be more patient but also don't want to have walls put in front of them, even if you can walk around them.

    And hey, I'm not trying to tell ArenaNet what to do. If they think this is a great idea then by all means. I just expect there to be a big uproar. I could be wrong, but the risk is ArenaNet's to run and not mine. So I'll let them decide. My issues with story bosses are different than this.

    I think we just have to agree to disagree at this point. I fully expect an uproar if they add a fail condition in story but I also expect people to overcome it. Just like how we as a community beat the revamped Teq, triple wurm or even Chak rush when people literally thought it was impossible to do without fully organized guild. People will get better.

    On a side note GW2 is a casual game because it is perfect for casual players as I pointed out before. However it attracts players who want challenge because again casual does not mean easy. I am a casual player, I play practically at most 2 hours every month yet I can still do Fotm or Raid. I just don't have the time to play anymore due to work or personal life compared to my younger days in college. I disagree that GW2 is about farming and gathering. Although I mainly want to point out is that the issue here is not challenge but rather there should be a baseline of difficulty for content. Challenge means different things for different types of players and as you said, I don't think the request to remove the current impossible to fail condition is a poor request. It just needs to be done correctly due to the environment where people cruise through an easy core world by pressing 1 and then suddenly thrown into HoT or PoF and get trashed because of the hand holding and lack of tutorials. GW2 at it's core with its hybrid action combat system is not an easy game compared to tab based MMO combat and people need to realize this.

  • Evueimeimei.5918Evueimeimei.5918 Member ✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018

    As a general rule, I prefer story content over story difficulty, even when that ends up with a very easy to complete story mode. For me personally, barring a couple annoying lesser dragon fights, the story difficulty is in a pretty good place right now. That being said, I wouldn't argue with a few small changes to offer up a bit more challenge or sense of danger to people who want it. Maybe do something like this: NPC allies never rez you, bosses reset to first phase/full health and resummon adds if you are defeated, any traps or destructible objects are reset, and maybe the boss has a taunt line; but then make an option where after a certain number of defeats to a boss in a small time frame the game will ask you if you want to turn on "help" mode and if you do it will remove all of those conditions and run like it does now (except the NPCs won't forget to rez you if they're on the other side of the room doing nothing useful).

  • Taygus.4571Taygus.4571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    Don't you think that they added the rezzing because players werent able to complete the instances? I means it's not like anyone wants to rez rush, they do so because they can't beat it otherwise.

    I don't think so because there are encounters that do not allow it, like Mordremoth for example. If it was an intentional feature to allow players to beat the content, then it would work everywhere. I think it's mostly a leftover that applies to certain situations but not others.

    Mord is older content, none of the previous stories have rezzing.
    So my question stands as they've added it after such content and continue to add it.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    Perhaps harder/more interesting mechanics coupled with the ability to res rush if you cannot handle the mechanics is the compromise that allowed ANet to make those mechanics for the players who wanted more of a challenge, while allowing the players who are going to struggle with those fights an option to finish the content. It's likely a much easier-to-implement solution than creating different modes.

    At the time res-rush was removed from dungeons, dungeons were still (along with fractals) the game's stand-in for raids. There is no doubt res rush cheapened dungeons. However, at what point (i.e., type of content) does a developer say, "This content has to be accessible to just about everyone." Certainly, that point should not be raid-equivalent content. So, should story be for everyone, or only for those who want it challenging?

    Clearly, the OP does not want a self-applied solution (like a manual reset) if his character is defeated. In one sense, I don't blame him, because having to redo the lead-in to the fight on reset would be tedious. Would a reset option coupled with a save point just before the boss fight work? Or does story content have to be made less accessible to players lower on the playing capability index?

    To me, the issue ought to be how ANet can make story content that is for a broad demographic which includes players at both ends of the spectrum. It's pretty obvious they don't want to open the Pandora's box of difficulty modes. That might be because that discussion is usually accompanied by, "If it's harder, the rewards had better be better." That often starts another fight.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    Perhaps harder/more interesting mechanics coupled with the ability to res rush if you cannot handle the mechanics is the compromise that allowed ANet to make those mechanics for the players who wanted more of a challenge, while allowing the players who are going to struggle with those fights an option to finish the content. It's likely a much easier-to-implement solution than creating different modes.

    At the time res-rush was removed from dungeons, dungeons were still (along with fractals) the game's stand-in for raids. There is no doubt res rush cheapened dungeons. However, at what point (i.e., type of content) does a developer say, "This content has to be accessible to just about everyone." Certainly, that point should not be raid-equivalent content. So, should story be for everyone, or only for those who want it challenging?

    Clearly, the OP does not want a self-applied solution (like a manual reset) if his character is defeated. In one sense, I don't blame him, because having to redo the lead-in to the fight on reset would be tedious. Would a reset option coupled with a save point just before the boss fight work? Or does story content have to be made less accessible to players lower on the playing capability index?

    To me, the issue ought to be how ANet can make story content that is for a broad demographic which includes players at both ends of the spectrum. It's pretty obvious they don't want to open the Pandora's box of difficulty modes. That might be because that discussion is usually accompanied by, "If it's harder, the rewards had better be better." That often starts another fight.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:
    When I want challenge from a game I want encounters that test the limits of my character's abilities, at his best, while my own abilities as a player are also stretched. Self handicapping, by not using my character to his full capacity (such as by not using his best gear), does not fulfill that desire for challenge.

    Unfortunately this isn't a single player game and is filled with players of varying degrees of ability. Should Anet tune the story to test the limits of ops ability...…. That means that anyone that doesn't equal or surpass op's ability level will effectively be shut out of the story(if the idea of you die you start again is enacted). Anyone want to guess how many players will get shut out of the story? I am guessing that being shut out of the games story would be a dealbreaker for quite a few customers. Anet can't afford to lose any customers.

    I get all of that. I have stated that I would love a difficulty mode setting, but that I understand that it could be prohibitively costly to implement. I was just attempting to give a perspective on the whole self handicapping commentary in this thread.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:
    When I want challenge from a game I want encounters that test the limits of my character's abilities, at his best, while my own abilities as a player are also stretched. Self handicapping, by not using my character to his full capacity (such as by not using his best gear), does not fulfill that desire for challenge.

    Unfortunately this isn't a single player game and is filled with players of varying degrees of ability. Should Anet tune the story to test the limits of ops ability...…. That means that anyone that doesn't equal or surpass op's ability level will effectively be shut out of the story(if the idea of you die you start again is enacted). Anyone want to guess how many players will get shut out of the story? I am guessing that being shut out of the games story would be a dealbreaker for quite a few customers. Anet can't afford to lose any customers.

    I get all of that. I have stated that I would love a difficulty mode setting, but that I understand that it could be prohibitively costly to implement. I was just attempting to give a perspective on the whole self handicapping commentary in this thread.

  • @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:
    When I want challenge from a game I want encounters that test the limits of my character's abilities, at his best, while my own abilities as a player are also stretched. Self handicapping, by not using my character to his full capacity (such as by not using his best gear), does not fulfill that desire for challenge.

    Unfortunately this isn't a single player game and is filled with players of varying degrees of ability. Should Anet tune the story to test the limits of ops ability...…. That means that anyone that doesn't equal or surpass op's ability level will effectively be shut out of the story(if the idea of you die you start again is enacted). Anyone want to guess how many players will get shut out of the story? I am guessing that being shut out of the games story would be a dealbreaker for quite a few customers. Anet can't afford to lose any customers.

    I get all of that. I have stated that I would love a difficulty mode setting, but that I understand that it could be prohibitively costly to implement. I was just attempting to give a perspective on the whole self handicapping commentary in this thread.

    Yeah, I agree with you on the difficulty mode setting. It really would be the only feasible option.

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Different classes are more powerful at soloing. Can't balance this feature other than making it time consuming like currently.

  • I feel like I read a post where 50% of the post was asking for mechanical gameplay challenge, but the other half sounded more like being critical of the story writing itself; as in the story of the villain, a villain's impact on our game, etc. Was it one? Or the other? Or maybe both.

  • Lucius.2140Lucius.2140 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    However, if there is enough interest and they balance it right, then it could be a good thing. Those are some big ifs though...

    Pre Hot content is very very very easy, two weeks ago i was playing without the HUD because it looks amazing and got in a fight with a particular mob that didnt die fast, when i checked i was right: just soloed a champ in a very casual way.

    For the Blood Legion! - 11 charr

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2018

    I agree with OP. The personal/living story instances are a sad joke when it comes to making anything feel like having an impact. It is like Anet wants to watch us a slightly more interactive movie than actually playing a roleplay game.
    There is absolutely nothing I find enjoyable about the personal story or the living story.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @juhani.5361 said:
    You know, there was a game that tried this-- started with a "W" and ended with a "star." And, oddly enough, its company was owned by the same parent company that owns Anet. People have been citing it for at least a couple of years as an example for years of why you don't cater to the most skilled and hardcore members of gaming communities. As of yesterday, the analogy has been given very, very sharp teeth. Sharp getting shut down teeth.

    Wildstar did not fail because of the difficulty. It died because the graphics were trash, the game was unoptimized and ran even worse than GW2 and a general lack of content (a handful of dungeons + 2 raids are hardly much after its long development time). Plus of course promises about content drops being broken quite early on. Also monthly subscription fee together with the flaws of the game did not work out.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @sorudo.9054 said:
    play raids with just your weapons, white ones.
    there, a challenge to overcome, you can even do this against story bosses.

    can make a alt get a low drop like level 2-5 white weapons to make it even harder.

    Self imposed challenges are useless. Why would someone do that if at best you have a super boring youtube video to show for it?

  • Jumpin Lumpix.6108Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2018

    They should just make some aspect of the game very difficult that relies solely on solo player skills, and lock some really good exclusive rewards behind it. That way, everyone is happy. If its too hard for some people, then i just say quote what everyone on the forums says to people who want any aspect of the game changed at all - "perhaps this game/game mode isn't for you."

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2018

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    They should just make some aspect of the game very difficult that relies solely on solo player skills, and lock some really good exclusive rewards behind it. That way, everyone is happy. If its too hard for some people, then i just say quote what everyone on the forums says to people who want any aspect of the game changed at all - "perhaps this game/game mode isn't for you."

    That doesn't make everyone happy. That locks people out of rewards that they might want because of skill. That's exactly what this game ISN'T about.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    They should just make some aspect of the game very difficult that relies solely on solo player skills, and lock some really good exclusive rewards behind it. That way, everyone is happy. If its too hard for some people, then i just say quote what everyone on the forums says to people who want any aspect of the game changed at all - "perhaps this game/game mode isn't for you."

    That doesn't make everyone happy. That locks people out of rewards that they might want because of skill. That's exactly what this game ISN'T about.

    Except since it is PVE everyone can go practice it and gain some skill easily. They should not cater to the people who multitask (eg. play GW2 and watch TV at the same). Since PVE is scripted and AI is super bad in this game, everyone can gain the required skill easily unless they are affected by some form of disability

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    They should just make some aspect of the game very difficult that relies solely on solo player skills, and lock some really good exclusive rewards behind it. That way, everyone is happy. If its too hard for some people, then i just say quote what everyone on the forums says to people who want any aspect of the game changed at all - "perhaps this game/game mode isn't for you."

    That doesn't make everyone happy. That locks people out of rewards that they might want because of skill. That's exactly what this game ISN'T about.

    Except since it is PVE everyone can go practice it and gain some skill easily. They should not cater to the people who multitask (eg. play GW2 and watch TV at the same). Since PVE is scripted and AI is super bad in this game, everyone can gain the required skill easily unless they are affected by some form of disability

    What? I don't get what you are saying. What I know is that there is content in games (and this one is no different) that people can't complete and if the poster I responded to thinks that locking really nice stuff behind really hard content 'makes everyone happy', he's just not thinking straight.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2018

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    They should just make some aspect of the game very difficult that relies solely on solo player skills, and lock some really good exclusive rewards behind it. That way, everyone is happy. If its too hard for some people, then i just say quote what everyone on the forums says to people who want any aspect of the game changed at all - "perhaps this game/game mode isn't for you."

    That doesn't make everyone happy. That locks people out of rewards that they might want because of skill. That's exactly what this game ISN'T about.

    Except since it is PVE everyone can go practice it and gain some skill easily. They should not cater to the people who multitask (eg. play GW2 and watch TV at the same). Since PVE is scripted and AI is super bad in this game, everyone can gain the required skill easily unless they are affected by some form of disability

    What? I don't get what you are saying. What I know is that there is content in games (and this one is no different) that people can't complete and if the poster I responded to thinks that locking really nice stuff behind really hard content 'makes everyone happy', he's just not thinking straight.

    Can't complete is most of the time just a bad excuse. I am not a very skilled person. I am bad in PvP/WvW. I do not have the reflexes of 14 year olds anymore. But if you fail (after practicing) at completing scripted encounters that are the same every time you go there, then the problem is you and not the game. There is really nothing even remotely hard in PvE this game, raids included. Everything can be learned rather easily by anyone legitimately trying and not just giving up at the first step where auto attacks won't cut it.

  • @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    They should just make some aspect of the game very difficult that relies solely on solo player skills, and lock some really good exclusive rewards behind it. That way, everyone is happy. If its too hard for some people, then i just say quote what everyone on the forums says to people who want any aspect of the game changed at all - "perhaps this game/game mode isn't for you."

    That doesn't make everyone happy. That locks people out of rewards that they might want because of skill. That's exactly what this game ISN'T about.

    Except since it is PVE everyone can go practice it and gain some skill easily. They should not cater to the people who multitask (eg. play GW2 and watch TV at the same). Since PVE is scripted and AI is super bad in this game, everyone can gain the required skill easily unless they are affected by some form of disability

    What? I don't get what you are saying. What I know is that there is content in games (and this one is no different) that people can't complete and if the poster I responded to thinks that locking really nice stuff behind really hard content 'makes everyone happy', he's just not thinking straight.

    Can't complete is most of the time just a bad excuse. I am not a very skilled person. I am bad in PvP/WvW. I do not have the reflexes of 14 year olds anymore. But if you fail (after practicing) at completing scripted encounters that are the same every time you go there, then the problem is you and not the game. There is really nothing even remotely hard in PvE this game, raids included. Everything can be learned rather easily by anyone legitimately trying and not just giving up at the first step where auto attacks won't cut it.

    There are people with disabilities out there that want to enjoy the game and not feel excluded (like in the real world), so why would you deny them that?
    Or is it because you need to feel superior to them by getting shiny pixels in the game? (So can you do Ember bay jumping puzzle with one arm?)

    Just because you can do it doesn't mean that everyone can even if they tried hard.
    Personal story is supposed to be accessible for everyone. So far there are some annoying bosses but the ability to res-rush actually helps people deal with them. (even with res-rush some people are having problems)

    Raids and high level fractals are where this game challenging content is.

    P.S. Wildstar is running way better than GW2 on my pc and the graphics are nicer (i prefer cartoon style). But I remember people complaining about how punishing the game was (failing one encounter in raids almost removed your reward, making people instantly restarting).

    No images or emojis allowed. Signatures can be up to 300 characters long.

  • @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @YoukiNeko.6047 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

    I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

    I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

    You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

    The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

    That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

    Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this kitten and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

    I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

    Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

    Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

    When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

    I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

    I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

    You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

    The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

    That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

    Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this kitten and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

    I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

    Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

    Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

    When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

    Sure having to raid will keep certain players out but enough people passed in FFXIV to progress the story so that it was never considered an issue. I am sure that there are people who still fail the current GW2 story because they just don't have the reflex to glide, hit and move at the same time or even do certain puzzles. Do we want to lower the difficulty even more? Because at a certain point you just have to stop. Nobody here in this thread want a raid boss in the story. However I think we can agree that there should be a baseline for how difficult should be and that the current status of corpse rush can be improved upon.

    Also I don't think GW2 ever advertised it to be easy. It is casual and being casual doesn't mean it is easy. GW2 is known to be easy to pick up due to no sub fee, it is easy to join group on open world due to dynamic events, and it is easy to come back because there is no gear trendmill. However I have never seen ads where it says this game is so easy to play. In fact I would argue GW2 is harder in terms of game mechanics compared to other mainstream MMOs. GW2 is a hybrid action tab MMO should by definition requires better reflex than tab MMOs. It offers a lot more customization options in terms of stats, traits and skills that again by definition makes it more difficult compare to other MMOs because you can make a very very bad build. FFXIV also marketed towards casual players with a personal story, in fact it is known for its elaborate personal story and robust casual gameplay thanks to its crafting system. Yet again having required raid is not an issue in that game. Players adapted and overcame the challenges and all is good. People will get better if there are enough incentives.

    I find the boss fights boring because I literally cannot fail. That is it. I don't expect raid boss tier mechanics nor perfect dps rotations to beat the boss. But I wish that there exist a way for you to fail. That is really it.

    Both WoW and FF14 have normal (easy) difficulty settings for their raids and can be easily done once released.
    This is why they can put story inside the raids.

    Yes the FFXIV's raid is the normal difficulty. However it is still a fully functional group raid with raid mechanics and a fail condition. It is not WoW LFR difficulty definitely but it is not faceroll. Unless you want to say that the story raid in FFXIV is easier than GW2's story mode? Because the biggest concern pointed out by the OP is that he wants a condition to fail the story which is something that is present in FFXIV's story raids. Yes echo exists when you fail which I support in adding; but most importantly I just want a fail condition.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

    I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

    I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

    You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

    The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

    That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

    Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this kitten and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

    I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

    Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

    Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

    When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Warscythes.9307 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

    The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

    edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

    You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

    Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

    I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

    I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

    I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

    You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

    The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

    That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

    Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this kitten and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

    I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

    Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

    Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

    When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

    Sure having to raid will keep certain players out but enough people passed in FFXIV to progress the story so that it was never considered an issue. I am sure that there are people who still fail the current GW2 story because they just don't have the reflex to glide, hit and move at the same time or even do certain puzzles. Do we want to lower the difficulty even more? Because at a certain point you just have to stop. Nobody here in this thread want a raid boss in the story. However I think we can agree that there should be a baseline for how difficult should be and that the current status of corpse rush can be improved upon.

    Also I don't think GW2 ever advertised it to be easy. It is casual and being casual doesn't mean it is easy. GW2 is known to be easy to pick up due to no sub fee, it is easy to join group on open world due to dynamic events, and it is easy to come back because there is no gear trendmill. However I have never seen ads where it says this game is so easy to play. In fact I would argue GW2 is harder in terms of game mechanics compared to other mainstream MMOs. GW2 is a hybrid action tab MMO should by definition requires better reflex than tab MMOs. It offers a lot more customization options in terms of stats, traits and skills that again by definition makes it more difficult compare to other MMOs because you can make a very very bad build. FFXIV also marketed towarded casual players with a personal story, in fact it is known for its elaborate personal story and robust casual gameplay thanks to its crafting system. Yet again having required raid is not an issue in that game. Players adapted and overcame the challenges and all is good.

    I find the boss fights boring because I literally cannot fail. That is it. I don't expect raid boss tier mechanics nor perfection dps rotations to beat the boss. But I wish that there exist a way for you to fail. That is really it.

    Well, all I can say is that the bosses aren't too difficult for me, but I do find the fights boring and too lengthy in the sense that it distracts me from the actual story. So I just end up ignoring the story and just slugging my way through it to get it done.

    I cannot however see myself as the standard and I do think that if, as suggested dying means starting over, it will cause an uproar in a part of the community. I do not have numbers but my feeling tells me that this part of the community is too big too ignore. GW2 as a more casual game, still attracted players who want challenge. That's actually what's weird, considering what GW2 is. It's about farming and gathering. LS introduced zones you can farm daily. And all to create ascended and legendary stuff and various cosmetics. The core was never about challenge.

    Now the OP's request isn't a strange one, but it's one that might, in the context of GW2, backfire quite a bit.

    In GW2 the main challenge is to not get bored before you reach your goals. Casual players tend to be more patient but also don't want to have walls put in front of them, even if you can walk around them.

    And hey, I'm not trying to tell ArenaNet what to do. If they think this is a great idea then by all means. I just expect there to be a big uproar. I could be wrong, but the risk is ArenaNet's to run and not mine. So I'll let them decide. My issues with story bosses are different than this.

    I think we just have to agree to disagree at this point. I fully expect an uproar if they add a fail condition in story but I also expect people to overcome it. Just like how we as a community beat the revamped Teq, triple wurm or even Chak rush when people literally thought it was impossible to do without fully organized guild. People will get better.

    On a side note GW2 is a casual game because it is perfect for casual players as I pointed out before. However it attracts players who want challenge because again casual does not mean easy. I am a casual player, I play practically at most 2 hours every month yet I can still do Fotm or Raid. I just don't have the time to play anymore due to work or personal life compared to my younger days in college. I disagree that GW2 is about farming and gathering. Although I mainly want to point out is that the issue here is not challenge but rather there should be a baseline of difficulty for content. Challenge means different things for different types of players and as you said, I don't think the request to remove the current impossible to fail condition is a poor request. It just needs to be done correctly due to the environment where people cruise through an easy core world by pressing 1 and then suddenly thrown into HoT or PoF and get trashed because of the hand holding and lack of tutorials. GW2 at it's core with its hybrid action combat system is not an easy game compared to tab based MMO combat and people need to realize this.

    FF14 raids are harder than GW2 personal story unless someone is carrying you - then it's easier.
    Personal story should be impossible for the players. (and yes there are players having real troubles with the story).
    If you want more challenge ask for new raid wing or level 200 fractals.

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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    Perhaps harder/more interesting mechanics coupled with the ability to res rush if you cannot handle the mechanics is the compromise that allowed ANet to make those mechanics for the players who wanted more of a challenge, while allowing the players who are going to struggle with those fights an option to finish the content. It's likely a much easier-to-implement solution than creating different modes.

    Check this out:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19421/suggestion-stop-making-story-bosses-hard-ls4-spoilers/p1
    allowing the players to clear the content through rez rushing isn't really a good option, even for those players that can't handle the difficulty.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:
    They should just make some aspect of the game very difficult that relies solely on solo player skills, and lock some really good exclusive rewards behind it. That way, everyone is happy. If its too hard for some people, then i just say quote what everyone on the forums says to people who want any aspect of the game changed at all - "perhaps this game/game mode isn't for you."

    You think the classes are balanced enough to create meaningful content that way that all classes can complete? GW1 had something fun in Eye of the North where you had this Norn championship that you had to beat an x amount of opponents solo and couldn't change builds in between. I remember laughing so hard because the 55 monks thought they could take this home until they found out there was some life steal in there, which was pretty much the one thing that build couldn't hack.

    But when it comes to solo content, one of the elements is that every single class should be able to beat it. And that does limit what you can do with it. Come to think of it SWTOR has something like that. But SWTOR has one advantage that GW2 doesn't...a companion. So if you're a healer then you take a DPS companion. Not as good as a player but definitely made it less slow to beat solo content.

    I'm definitely for having harder content in the game, but I do have to wonder if the classes are all up to the task. And what that means is that they can't make it too hard simply because not all the classes are equal or have the same abilities.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    I mean, for real, why should we have to take Balthazar and Joko seriously, if we LITERALLY cannot lose to them?
    Every duel with a boss follows the same pattern, you put in half an effort, and you kill the boss with easy.
    Or you just laze away, half-minded, and the boss kills you a few times, but no worries, because THERE ARE NO FAIL CONDITIONS.
    There literally isn't a point to having a health bar, because once the health bar hits zero, it just goes back to full and you can keep fighting.
    Even if you're somehow so bad you keep dying until you're in your underwear, as long as you keep hitting that respawn button, you can kill Balthazar in your swim shorts.

    So thats what I'm asking, why do we even care about the big villains if they're INCAPABLE of defeating us? We can literally keep nibbling away at them at our weakest, and they can't do anything to stop us.

    And it's not just from a mechanical point of view, we're even immortal in the story.
    Apparantly, having died once, makes us immune to dying again, according to LS4-3, which didn't make any sense to me, at all.
    What, so we're incorporeal now? the beetles can't dig into us, lay eggs, and eat us up from the inside because our bodies have already been dead once before?

    I am PLEADING you, anet, give the bosses some fail conditions, let them win for a change. Give us a reason to take their fights seriously?
    Otherwise we can all just go on vacation and send a swarm of Skritt and Quaggans to go kill the next boss.

    The whole talk about Generation III bugs had me hoping there would be a story point where Joko unleashes the plague, and we lose, and we have to cleanse, purge, or downright burn down an entire society or something. To keep it from spreading.
    When we stormed that palace of his, and the gates broken, I thought "here it is".
    Only to have a bunch of ghosts say "we'll keep them contained".
    Then what was the whole point of the plague?
    There was never any risk if we only needed a few ghosts to end the plague.
    The plague was a sort of MacGuffin, but now it's just a background drop.

    Give the villains some slack, anet, please, give us a reason to actually WANT to defeat them

    While I think your issue is mostly with LWS4 (I do as well, the content is terrible), do we really want to up the difficulty? Remember, the story difficulty is made in a way that a player with limited experience and knowledge, can progress through it with ease.

    Even for veteran players like me, it will only be a matter changing builds and gear. My main is guardian DH/core power build, in mostly berserker gear. If difficulty goes up, I will go the sPvP gear route and play radiant core with mostly Valkyrie and meditation line. Is this really an increase in difficulty or inconvenience?

    Lw isn't lvl 10 or 20 content, its lvl 80.

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