OH MAN, THOSE SCOURGE RED CIRCLES OF DEATH ARE SO OP!

So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights).How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions?Everyone is really thinking that the first option is healthier for the game mode?

It hurts pretty bad like. You think pvp is bad, you should try and count the red rings o doom in WvW.... I lost count.

It doesn't make them undefeatable. Just tricky to deal with if you're a total melee spec :/

I've seen a huge spike on necros though and it's not uncommon to have games with 2 on each team. It's like Mesmers all over again. The absolute least fun I've had this week was a game with 2 duos on each team. All 4 duos were guard/Necro. Then me and some Rev dude stood in the middle like, wtf? XD

You have to drop them before they can get enough life-force to use shroud. I always call target on them first and cc the living crap out of them... but when there's 2 with uber ressing... Not that simple

@"Peutrifectus.4830" said:It hurts pretty bad like. You think pvp is bad, you should try and count the red rings o doom in WvW.... I lost count.

It doesn't make them undefeatable. Just tricky to deal with if you're a total melee spec :/

I've seen a huge spike on necros though and it's not uncommon to have games with 2 on each team. It's like Mesmers all over again. The absolute least fun I've had this week was a game with 2 duos on each team. All 4 duos were guard/Necro. Then me and some Rev dude stood in the middle like, kitten? XD

Playing as a weaver is just impossible to have a fair game against a Reaper (you make one mistake, you're dead, he makes one mistake, kit till shroud again)But that i can understand, not every class will be perfectly balanced 1x1.Problem is a guy enter reaper, wipe an entire team (that's obviously fighting tight on points) and that's ok.I remember people raging so bad about Scourges, but that Reaper thing looks way more problematic for me.Ok, there's the mobility problem, stability, kinds of counter-play etc, but don't create monsters that wipe entire teams in -2 seconds. (the "tells" were ok, maybe they reallly need a buff, but the quickness just makes the tells unoticeable)

It seems 2 to 3 necros per team is a common thing again... fortunately I'm pretty so I run faster.

Prepare your pew pew rifle teef. :trollface:

@Malafaia.8903 said:So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights).How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions?Everyone is really thinking that the first option is healthier for the game mode?

Is it healthy for the game mode that thiefs can do insane burst damage from invis, and if you manage to survive they can just invis out heal up and come back while you are on cool down, is it healthy for mesmers to burst you down in the same fashion from stealth, what about guard's and warriors who can get boons for days and absorb damage from 3 or 4 players on point, it sounds like a LTP issue, or that you play a class that is used to being the one doing the burst damage in most fights.

@Ok I Did It.2854 said:

@Malafaia.8903 said:So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights).How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions?Everyone is really thinking that the first option is healthier for the game mode?

Guards who can face tank 4 players on point? Mind to share the build with me or all the players you talking are like support FB? But to the point, i guess people are just annoyed at how easy it is for the Reaper to land his damage, is to rewarding for something that requires low effort...like last time i fighted one(WvW), he could do 6K~10K auto attacks lol, his number 2 skill was like 15K plus or something, add all the chill and if you aint playing a high mobility profession, you are good as dead allready...and also the fact that most of Reaper skills are AoE that can put radiance guard burst into shame...its the problem with this game, low effort builds performing way to good, if you dont have a group who is build and know how to work around the reaper he is gonna farm people really easy.

@Malafaia.8903 said:

@"Peutrifectus.4830" said:It hurts pretty bad like. You think pvp is bad, you should try and count the red rings o doom in WvW.... I lost count.

It doesn't make them undefeatable. Just tricky to deal with if you're a total melee spec :/

I've seen a huge spike on necros though and it's not uncommon to have games with 2 on each team. It's like Mesmers all over again. The absolute least fun I've had this week was a game with 2 duos on each team. All 4 duos were guard/Necro. Then me and some Rev dude stood in the middle like, kitten? XD

The ' wipe the entire team ' is a l2p issue, because it's usually about positionning, playing on side points if you can't deal with necros, etc... But i gotta agree that this seems " too easy " even against opponents who do not know how to play.

Now, like i already said on other topic, we had issues with condi mesmer, scourge. Hambow on it's time. Now reaper. All of them are condition related. I am convinced the game needs something like a tutorial to handle heavy condition spamming.

@Abazigal.3679 said:

@Malafaia.8903 said:

@"Peutrifectus.4830" said:It hurts pretty bad like. You think pvp is bad, you should try and count the red rings o doom in WvW.... I lost count.

It doesn't make them undefeatable. Just tricky to deal with if you're a total melee spec :/

I've seen a huge spike on necros though and it's not uncommon to have games with 2 on each team. It's like Mesmers all over again. The absolute least fun I've had this week was a game with 2 duos on each team. All 4 duos were guard/Necro. Then me and some Rev dude stood in the middle like, kitten? XD

Reaper isn't Condi based, and hambow was more of a hybrid build if anything.

imagine a few season ago we had does same red circle problem's? There were bigger.. XD

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Abazigal.3679 said:

@Malafaia.8903 said:

@"Peutrifectus.4830" said:It hurts pretty bad like. You think pvp is bad, you should try and count the red rings o doom in WvW.... I lost count.

It doesn't make them undefeatable. Just tricky to deal with if you're a total melee spec :/

I've seen a huge spike on necros though and it's not uncommon to have games with 2 on each team. It's like Mesmers all over again. The absolute least fun I've had this week was a game with 2 duos on each team. All 4 duos were guard/Necro. Then me and some Rev dude stood in the middle like, kitten? XD

Depends what you call " condi based", not the same as mesmer or scourge for sure. But from what i'm seeing in game, what kills people is usually the condi phase, not really the physical damage or pure outplaying, which is usually easy to read or anticipate.

@Ok I Did It.2854 said:

@Malafaia.8903 said:So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights).How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions?Everyone is really thinking that the first option is healthier for the game mode?

@Malafaia.8903 said:So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights).How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions?Everyone is really thinking that the first option is healthier for the game mode?

I always chose a class that i feel will get the least nerfs to play the "next season", because i want to practice off-season with the most similar situation i'll face (at least from my side) when season start. As i said above, this time it was weaver, its a challenge, i like to learn classes, i'm here to have fun, not to wintrade my ass to the top on leaderboard.

From all the professions you mentioned on your post, the perma stealth de is the only one i still think it's a poblem (because no counterplay, since you never see the guy because he's always stealthed). Mesmers got toned down (could be more? yes? it's ruining the game? not for me. maybe a a true L2P issue for you, now?)

Warriors sustain + damage are over the top? yes, i think it is, but it has clear tells that you can avoid, unless... L2P?

You are facecing guards that are eating dmage from 3 or 4 players? they are playing with 12 tomes, 4 shields and 5 focus? I've never seen nothing like this. Or is it an experience of a legend guardian against 4 bronze weavers?

Answering posts with "it's a L2P" don't make you a better player if you can't explain why. If its a L2P, teach me master. I've presented a problem, and instead of helping/ instructing, you chose to point out what is bothering you (and present it like the real problem) while the situation i've presented is "just a L2P issue".

I've played a lot of necro. I've faced scourges burning you like Balthazar on release of PoF. This forum was filled of complains. But now it's ok for a guy to use 2 buttons, wipe an entire team (sorry for trying to fight on point/ cap). All of this in under 2 seconds. There's no tell anymore (because quickness), when the guy pop shroud and click 2 buttons you and whoever is in the path will be downed.

"Oh, its a L2P, you can easily avoid it". Yes, you can, unless you're in a team fight and there's 3 or 4 more thing you have to be aware. Make reapers punishing, they HAVE to be, they don't have much other than damage. But the situation is just over-the-top.

My point since the beggining is: "giant red circles that deny access to the point (aka the objective on this game mode)" was a BIG PROBLEM, IMPOSSIBLE TO FIGHT AGAINST, but now the deny to the point as an insta-kill and is just a L2P issue?

@Abazigal.3679 said:

@Malafaia.8903 said:

@"Peutrifectus.4830" said:It hurts pretty bad like. You think pvp is bad, you should try and count the red rings o doom in WvW.... I lost count.

It doesn't make them undefeatable. Just tricky to deal with if you're a total melee spec :/

I've seen a huge spike on necros though and it's not uncommon to have games with 2 on each team. It's like Mesmers all over again. The absolute least fun I've had this week was a game with 2 duos on each team. All 4 duos were guard/Necro. Then me and some Rev dude stood in the middle like, kitten? XD

What condition mate?The guys are putting you down with brute force using 2 buttons."Oh, but there's the chill" -> now this is a L2P issue.

Necro, reaper or scourge always was and is just the easy noob friendly pick of everyone, same as warrior, every single skill they use is deadly and worth dodging or kiting or block.Even if you are bad you just spam your skills and still got high chances to win that fight because of ridiculous condi spam that carries you (yeah even power reaper spam is nasty: chills, cripples, weakness; those are very strong conditions even without running a condi build).Can afford multiple mistakes and still get away with it, nothing new under the sun.

Just have stun breaks or evades ready.

I mean, how can a necro repeatedly bash you? Death Charge = easy dodge. Then they'll try to spin or use scythe, another easy dodge on both (whichever you dodge, they'll be out of range for the one they didn't use) - time to retaliate.

@"Malafaia.8903" said:My point since the beggining is: "giant red circles that deny access to the point (aka the objective on this game mode)" was a BIG PROBLEM, IMPOSSIBLE TO FIGHT AGAINST, but now the deny to the point as an insta-kill and is just a L2P issue?

I'm not disagreeing with your whole post, but fact is on low rating ( 1000-1300), it's partly a L2P issue. Not necessarly about beating the " insta-kill " build but about doing it an other way.Unfortunately, i have many games where i can see myself watching teammates who keep going or engaging 1v1's or 1v2's they already lost several times in a few seconds. On these games, i keep typing to play sides and avoid these matchs, but people do insist and we end up losing. An other game, i was 1v3 on far point, and i also saw my teammates dying being unnumbered and off point in addition.

What i mean is that obviously balancing could be better, and i'm not saying " my teammates are bad i am the best blabla " but people also gotta understand to play differently. I've been doing many games with drawings on maps, giving advices in chat , but sometimes, it feels people are like " if we can't win the fight on mid, the game is lost " but that's totally not the case.

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Ok I Did It.2854 said:

@Malafaia.8903 said:So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights).How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions?Everyone is really thinking that the first option is healthier for the game mode?

So in wvw you couldn't kite away from a reaper 1v1? Roamer reapers must be totally OP.

@"Razor.6392" said:Just have stun breaks or evades ready.

I mean, how can a necro repeatedly bash you? Death Charge = easy dodge. Then they'll try to spin or use scythe, another easy dodge on both (whichever you dodge, they'll be out of range for the one they didn't use) - time to retaliate.

The problem is that "repeatedly" isn't needed, you'll already be downed if one mistake were made. That's the whole point of the post.So, your advice is to save both your dodges to spend on that necro and possibly a stunbreaker if you fail on gettint the quickness tell?

@Abazigal.3679 said:

@"Malafaia.8903" said:My point since the beggining is: "giant red circles that deny access to the point (aka the objective on this game mode)" was a BIG PROBLEM, IMPOSSIBLE TO FIGHT AGAINST, but now the deny to the point as an insta-kill and is just a L2P issue?

Yes, i agree with you on it. Rotation is the worst part for PUGs.But necros are "solving the problems" on each points so fast that they are roaming between them (seriously, start to look at that trend).

A lot of times i'm outnumbered as a weaver too and my team are being obliterated while we get nothing.The only time i just run away is when i se a reaper coming, atm, because you can't eat NO DAMAGE, it will put you down.

@Malafaia.8903 said:

@"Razor.6392" said:Just have stun breaks or evades ready.

I mean, how can a necro repeatedly bash you? Death Charge = easy dodge. Then they'll try to spin or use scythe, another easy dodge on both (whichever you dodge, they'll be out of range for the one they didn't use) - time to retaliate.

that has been the same for warrior since forever though. get stunned -> eviscerate / HB and you're dead or near dead, all while they have perma passive fucking everything and 2000 gap closers.

fighting reaper has nothing on fighting warrior.

@Faux Play.6104 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Ok I Did It.2854 said:

@Malafaia.8903 said:So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights).How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions?Everyone is really thinking that the first option is healthier for the game mode?

how much mobility a core guard have?

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Faux Play.6104 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Ok I Did It.2854 said:

@Malafaia.8903 said:So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights).How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions?Everyone is really thinking that the first option is healthier for the game mode?

Today on my rev (kinda new at rev) I decided to give a test against a reaper, I engaged him and dropped him very fast to 10% health, I decided to not dodge and make one mistake.He used elite skill and other 3-4 skills in succession spammed really fast and he downed me immediately.Every single skill reaper has is worth a dodge a block or an evade, it is not overpowered by any mean, but same as his brother scourge is a noob friendly easy spam profession that allows noobs to be a champion with it.Perma chill, cripple and weakness and blind spam in reaper even if he is a power build are so nasty to deal with and it's what makes the profession to easy pick by noobs same as warrior.Just this.

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Faux Play.6104 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Ok I Did It.2854 said:

@Malafaia.8903 said:So, now Reapers can pop shroud, quickness and drop you down from 80% HP to downed state without you even notice it's happening (unless you have your 3rd eye working in team fights).How can this be healthier than giant telling red circles that will pop conditions?Everyone is really thinking that the first option is healthier for the game mode?

thats exactly what i said, but our little friend there decided to ignore it...I would call OP a class that can perform really well even when the player itself is completelly clueless of what he is doing, 6K~10K auto attacks with zero setup is broken...you can deal with this stuff if you know how do dance around it, or its more bareable if you playing something with high mobility, but still, one mistake leads to allmost certain death.

seems for me People still doesnt understand the meaning of balancing and skill.

Balancing means every class has weaknesses and strengthens.

e.g. Reaperstrength+dmg Output+boonhate

-mobility-no stability-no Sustain-melee range shroud

before the last patch reaper didnt had dmg because dmg died in Long casttimes. so yes, quickness is really important but not OP.

if you watch to mesmer

+great mobility+great dmg+great Sustain

-dont know anyone (Maybe someone of you know one)

or warrior+great mobility+great dmg+great Sustain,passive heal,boons

-obvious skill animations easy to dodge-melee range

holo+great mobility+great dmg+great Sustain,heal, boons+massive CC

-Auto elix s proc Interrupts him-weak against condis(?)-melee range dmg

skill means being able to use your own strenghtens to attack the opponents on their weaknesses.

as reaper i try to burst the engi until his Auto proc for elix s activates, that give me 3 secs to prepare the final spike while he is deactivated. so i Play my dmg strength against his Auto proc weakness.as holo you win the fight against a reaper if you use your cc against reapers lack of stability. both sides have a Chance to win. it is a question of who has the better timing for their skills. this is very balanced for me.

reaper has so many weaknesses that it is easier to find a counter against reaper than against some other classes like mesmers. finally every class can kite a reaper while he is in shroud. you can range bomb him while in shroud and burst him outside. you can cc him anytime and he will not be able to fight back. also with endure pain (up to 10 seconds) on warrior, distortion, mirage cloak and blurred frenzy on Mirage and further skill on other classes you can ez facetank a reaper who is in shroud and bomb him out.

so i really dont understand complainings. what do People expect? a necro that is by far the slowliest class in the game without Sustain, heal,boons and with just meh dmg Output? what would be left than? boonhate. but creating a whole class for being a Gimmick for Groups isnt balancing.

it is (and i dont like to say it) a learn to Play issue if you are not able to stay away when reaper is trong (in shroud) and push/kill him while he is weak(outside of shroud). the telling when shroud is up are great enough to react to it. if you try to braindead yolopush him, you deserve to loose. because yoloing should never be a Winning strategy in a competitive game mode. so start using your brain.

in a serious balance discussion People should stop just Talking About strengthens and starting to see the WHOLE Performance of a class, seeing also the weak Points of classes. that is Base to discus objectively and constructive.

if you do that you will see the reaper is a lot, but not OP. even scourge red circles have a huge warning time window compared to oneshots out of invis. no other class have so many and obvious counters that can kill him like necro but you are asking for even more and more. so plz try to see the other side, too. otherwise this discussions will lead to nowhere.

@Zero.3871 said:seems for me People still doesnt understand the meaning of balancing and skill.

Balancing means every class has weaknesses and strengthens.

e.g. Reaperstrength+dmg Output+boonhate

-mobility-no stability-no Sustain-melee range shroud

before the last patch reaper didnt had dmg because dmg died in Long casttimes. so yes, quickness is really important but not OP.

if you watch to mesmer

+great mobility+great dmg+great Sustain

-dont know anyone (Maybe someone of you know one)

or warrior+great mobility+great dmg+great Sustain,passive heal,boons

-obvious skill animations easy to dodge-melee range

holo+great mobility+great dmg+great Sustain,heal, boons+massive CC

-Auto elix s proc Interrupts him-weak against condis(?)-melee range dmg

skill means being able to use your own strenghtens to attack the opponents on their weaknesses.

as reaper i try to burst the engi until his Auto proc for elix s activates, that give me 3 secs to prepare the final spike while he is deactivated. so i Play my dmg strength against his Auto proc weakness.as holo you win the fight against a reaper if you use your cc against reapers lack of stability. both sides have a Chance to win. it is a question of who has the better timing for their skills. this is very balanced for me.

reaper has so many weaknesses that it is easier to find a counter against reaper than against some other classes like mesmers. finally every class can kite a reaper while he is in shroud. you can range bomb him while in shroud and burst him outside. you can cc him anytime and he will not be able to fight back. also with endure pain (up to 10 seconds) on warrior, distortion, mirage cloak and blurred frenzy on Mirage and further skill on other classes you can ez facetank a reaper who is in shroud and bomb him out.

so i really dont understand complainings. what do People expect? a necro that is by far the slowliest class in the game without Sustain, heal,boons and with just meh dmg Output? what would be left than? boonhate. but creating a whole class for being a Gimmick for Groups isnt balancing.

it is (and i dont like to say it) a learn to Play issue if you are not able to stay away when reaper is trong (in shroud) and push/kill him while he is weak(outside of shroud). the telling when shroud is up are great enough to react to it. if you try to braindead yolopush him, you deserve to loose. because yoloing should never be a Winning strategy in a competitive game mode. so start using your brain.

in a serious balance discussion People should stop just Talking About strengthens and starting to see the WHOLE Performance of a class, seeing also the weak Points of classes. that is Base to discus objectively and constructive.

if you do that you will see the reaper is a lot, but not OP. even scourge red circles have a huge warning time window compared to oneshots out of invis. no other class have so many and obvious counters that can kill him like necro but you are asking for even more and more. so plz try to see the other side, too. otherwise this discussions will lead to nowhere.

Mobility is not the best on reaper, but shroud has a pretty low cd leap to use, then everyone runs the worm teleport skill (1200 range, a little weaker judges intervention), and plus axe can rekt people 100-0 from 900 range, so you don't need mobility to be melee range all the time.And in many cases reaper doesn't need to kite, but the other classes have to kite him to avoid damage.Greatsword has a great area denial blind spam to keep your enemy away, a pull(even if easy to avoid, it's still something to deal with), and it works even behind walls or obstacles.So the mobility is not needed.Sustain... well... a new health pool of 20k hp that you can build up during the fight it's not that bad as sustain option.And shroud melee range you consider it a malus, why you wanted even shroud long range? With all the perma chill and all the other condis you pull off It's not hard to chase down a target unless it's thief or mirage.As I said in my previous post i fought a reaper today, dropped him to 10%, then didnt dodge chilled to the bone elite, in 2 seconds my 25k hp vanished by spamming skills.It's not op but so noob friendly same as spellbreaker, soulbeast, holo and mirage.