Why tie pip rewards to winning/losing?

Consider the following:

Team composition is effectively RNG.In ranked matches, no one can effectively play together due to the party-size limitation of 2. On top of this, many players often solo-queue into ranked matches. In fact, if solo-queue players weren't such a common occurance, then there would be no way that a party-size limit of 2 would even allow sPvP to function (considering how sPvP party sizes are an odd number). Considering this, how much can wins or losses truly be attributed to one's own personal "skill" or "teamwork" if any given team has no personal commitment to each other, no one is in any active communication with each other, and no one is obliged to listen to or assist anyone else on one's own team?

GW2 has a clearly defined, invulnerability-laden and low-effort metagame. However, when queuing for a ranked match, no player is necessarily obliged to build a character in order to meet this meta's standards.Not that anyone should necessarily advocate for a "play this way only" police, but the point remains that GW2 has a very passive, low-effort, low-risk meta revolving around instantaneous and ranged skills, a lot of trait procs and a lot of total effect negation (i.e. invuln, block, evade; different names even though they're all exactly the same in principle). To this end, is it really fair to give reward weight to wins and losses when there can very well be rogue elements on any given team which consciously or unconsciously play with empirically sub-par builds (whether due to a lack of knowledge of GW2's meta-game or possibly in a futile attempt to have fun)? Moreover, due to bloat and general design decisions, a lot of wins and losses between respective "Class1 vs Class2" encounters are often pre-determined due to hard counter mechanics. Extrapolate this issue across a full 5v5 scenario, and certain teams can be disadvantaged before a match even begins for no reason except because one or two players simply chose "the wrong class." Why tie reward weight to wins and losses if players can self-sabotage by simply attempting to have fun (or even by simply not buying the right expac for the class that they want to play)?

GW2 is not a game of particularly precise timing or aim whatsoever.The best and most ubiquitous meta skills are instant and/or activate from range. If anyone is attacked repeatedly, one often resorts to abilities or passive procs which instantly make them invulnerable for a period of time regardless of their positioning. The biggest area that any player truly has to monitor or aim at (a capture point) is a fixed location which is typically the size of the average AoE effect. If players are typically herded into tiny circles inside of which attacks are basically incapable of missing, does aim or positioning really matter with relation to SPvP's overall objectives? If multiple classes, in order to remove self-risk and guarantee that their attacks land, engage in combat from range with tab-target teleports (which sometimes travel through walls) or instantaneous stealth, is it fair to consider positioning or timing relevant within combat? To this end, is it really worthwhile to put any emphasis on reward for winners or losers if server-based calculations, rather than players, do all of the heavy lifting when it comes to aiming and movement?

• tl;dr: The weight of victory and loss in GW2's ranked sPvP is completely cheapened by the game's own meta along with its queue system. Tying increased or decreased pip rewards to wins and losses loses its meaning when the game is basically just a joke. The only reason pips exist is to time-gate people toward getting ascended armor anyway, so why even put a win/loss reward amount on them anyway? Just give everyone 10 pips for even giving this mess a shot. Fifteen even.
• On top of this, just allow players to gain equivalent pips in unranked.

I think it should stay to give players an incentive to play instead of afk-botting, yielding and stuff. Also:

@"Swagg.9236" said:Team composition is effectively RNG.

That is why people can change classes in preparation time or adjust builds. That is very much needed indeed and does happen in higher tiers (more or less). The solo leaderboard was rather accurate - except the volatility of luck in the last games, build played and wintrading. Maybe +- 50 points. Even with duoQ, one can obviously argue how much that really helps you on the leaderboard (even though personally I think it does have a rather high impact :wink: ).

GW2 has a clearly defined, invulnerability-laden and low-effort metagame. However, when queuing for a ranked match, no player is necessarily obliged to build a character in order to meet this meta's standards.

True. Some off-meta builds can still be effective though, especially countering certain meta builds. Also: Those players will get ranked lower if their builds suck. So if you play a proper build and still play with these people, they are actually probably much better skill-wise than you.

Again: Swapping classes is something players should always consider. And talking about the comp with your team, there might be special builds. If you don't do that, that's your own fault then.

GW2 is not a game of particularly precise timing or aim whatsoever.

Positioning is extremely important. Also trying to play with ping over 200 is ridiculous and hardly possible for me and no fun at all. There are a lot of weird skills helping here - teleports, invulnerabilities -, but everyone can play with these or decide not to follow the powercreeped meta. The competition can be there though, the balance right now is not that bad.

I would like to see (some) pips in unranked though, I give you that. Let players who just "want to have fun with more than one friend" get some rewards too.

@Megametzler.5729 said:I think it should stay to give players an incentive to play instead of afk-botting, yielding and stuff. Also:

@"Swagg.9236" said:Team composition is effectively RNG.

Right, but it's not always often that a team will switch players, or what about the situations in which players switch at 20s because they think it's a good idea and then end up sabotaging their team because they don't log back before the match starts (anecdotal experience, but I'm certain that I'm not the only one to know that scenario)? Then we have the issue of how bloated every class is nowadays that it's not entirely possible to guarantee knowledge of an opponent's team build just by looking at the class arrangement. A thief could be an assumed s/d or something, but it ends up being a deadeye, and now the team dies randomly to stealth attacks because nobody brought reflect skills for the free rock-paper-scissors counter. With all of these wacky variables in team composition along with the fact that one might not consistently see people switch classes in order to better counter an opposing team, is it really fair to assign weight to wins and losses? Isn't that just assigning weight to an ultimately RNG element?

GW2 has a clearly defined, invulnerability-laden and low-effort metagame. However, when queuing for a ranked match, no player is necessarily obliged to build a character in order to meet this meta's standards.

True. Some off-meta builds can still be effective though, especially countering certain meta builds. Also: Those players will get ranked lower if their builds suck. So if you play a proper build and still play with these people, they are actually probably much better skill-wise than you.

But that was my point: if a player doesn't choose the right build, it's self-sabotage even if its in the name of fun or simply because that player doesn't own the right expac. To that end, is it fair to call any of that "skill-based" or apply reward weight to wins or losses in clearly skewed matches?

Again: Swapping classes is something players should always consider. And talking about the comp with your team, there might be special builds. If you don't do that, that's your own fault then.

This is getting into the whole "the game is balanced, but absolutely no fun" territory. The example I go to on this one is Street Fighter 1 vs Street Fighter 2. Street Fighter 1 wasn't tremendously popular as a competitive option because the entire game's meta ended up being Ryu/Ken vs Ryu/Ken match-ups. The game was incredibly balanced in an empirical sense (since everybody used the exact same character), but it wasn't that much fun to watch or play (same could be said for things like the most recent Smash 4:

If somebody wants to have fun in GW2, they're almost inevitably going to lose out unless they happen to like the low-effort, no-risk, homogenized playstyle which dominates the metagame. Hard counters are king in GW2. So, again, if the game effectively reduces down into rock-paper-scissors class-counters which can determine a match's outcome EVEN BEFORE IT BEGINS, why put any weight on victory or loss? It's rock-papers-scissors. Why base PvP and a reward system around that paradigm?

GW2 is not a game of particularly precise timing or aim whatsoever.

• Anyone who wants to get into melee range can either use a teleport or just holds up a shield like some unconscious mongoloid while they wade through waves of attacks that bounce off of them.
• Plenty of teleports can take players through rows of walls and flooring.
• Mesmers and Necros attack from range without projectiles; they just have to wander within range of a target to start hitting for free.
• Thieves teleport through walls and fight as if they are rubberbanding with a bad connection.
• Rangers engage with 2 auto-aim buttons from 1500+ range.

The only thing important here is how many invuln buttons one can bring while still being able to 100-0 somebody in under 5 seconds. Positioning is a non-factor considering how all long-ranged movement is scripted and typically aimed for players. If two players enter into each others' respective range and have no cover to escape line-of-sight, then GW2 effectively turns into Runescape: nobody misses anything and the only thing stopping them from dying is a few arbitrary healing skills (and in GW2's case, chaining damage/effect negation). Go on, go fight ANYTHING on the open ground of Colusseum with ANY class and tell me that you can get through a fight by using manual movement in GW2. If a game's movement has to be constantly amplified by scripted skills, then the game's baseline movement (and therefore the concept of positioning and timing) is heavily compromised.

Also trying to play with ping over 200 is ridiculous and hardly possible for me and no fun at all.

Completely irrelevant to the point, though I feel for your situation.

There are a lot of weird skills helping here - teleports, invulnerabilities -, but everyone can play with these or decide not to follow the powercreeped meta. The competition can be there though, the balance right now is not that bad.

YET AGAIN, it's a matter of yes, you can decide to choose an off-meta build, but you will almost inevitably get punished for it with losses to meta builds. Therefore, why attribute weight to victory and loss if everything is going to be so predetermined by this paradigm? It's basically just a false sense of pride and arrogance on part of the developers and the players who would defend themselves as skillful players of a game based around rock-paper-scissors counters and looking at a mini-map. As for balance not being that bad, you can again refer to my points about the un-fun fighting games. Suffice to say that balance can be very "good" but the game can still be hot trash.

@Swagg.9236 said:

• On top of this, just allow players to gain pips in unranked.

This is pretty much what I want... Most days I feel bad playing ranked PvP because I'm not really there to win, mostly just there to have fun while also being rewarded for having fun...I didn't have to feel bad under team rank queue because I played with like minded individuals.... But that's gone.

@"Swagg.9236" said:(...)

I played S/D weaver in the last seasons and got in top100. With a builds that is clearly subpar. However, I obviously managed to be good enough to get my place on the leaderboard, several times. I adjusted my build (and yes, from time to time I change classes too) so I could do the very best for my team composition. Your whole point of "players don't swap classes so it's RNG" is closely connected to players being unclever and getting a lower rating. So does "playing with a crappy build", it simply leads to a lower rating.

The needed skill is not just mechanical skill, it is also about team composition, map movement and yes, communicating with your teammates. All this can lead to you winning or losing the match and therefor determines your rating. You kind of seem to underestimate positioning and it's challanges too.

I actually never felt invulns being too strong so that's not a point for me either. Yeah, mesmers suck with all their chained dodges, invulns, blocks, but that's a very mirage-specific thing.

You do not think the leaderboard is accurate? Or what is your point, why should losses be so highly rewarded? I don't doubt powercreep and it's effect on making a lot of builds unplayable, but the rating does show different values depending on the class and build you play.

You also wrote a lot of your view on the current balance, but you completely ignored my point with the problem of afk-botting and stuff. Giving the same pips for losses would make the situation a lot worse in some brakets.