Hard mode for core story — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Hard mode for core story

Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭
edited September 10, 2018 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Watching wooden potatoes playthrough of the story has been highly interesting on the account of all the trivia and npc details and references he includes. However he alludes at one point to how facerollingly easy it is to get through the main story, and how little it feels like an rpg with important levelling choices, and more just a railroaded ride.

I'd suggest adding some difficulty settings to the story instances. easy is what it would be now, but for new players there should be a choice of medium. Enough challenge to keep people form falling asleep, but not enough to frustrate. Once the main story is completed once, a hard and perhaps even later an expert/impossible mode should come out, making the repeating of story experiences on new characters less of a chore and more of a personal challenge.

To go even further, completing these modes could even have achievements and rewards attached to them.

One small design flaw could be players making the hard modes easier by first ignoring the story and getting gear that will make them stronger in the story despite scaled stats, but in my opinion players should be allowed to do this if they really really want to.

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Comments

  • segman.3560segman.3560 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think Anet's going to touch legacy content aka things available for free accounts.

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2018

    @YoukiNeko.6047 said:

    Sure difficulty setting is fine, but no exclusive rewards or achievements. You want challenge right? Not exclusive rewards and bragging rights?

    I think there should be a reward at the end for the simple reason that people expect such things. Nothing too crazy, perhaps a title or a unique skin. Something that makes the effort feel all the sweeter once the end is reached. I'd feel fairly cheated if I had no commemorative aspect to completing a long and difficult challenge, especially when the game rewards you for every other such feat.

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just take of your gear, weapon only, done. We used to run low level dungeons in one of the game I played, naked. Was fun to get wiped to a boss we could one shot.

    The point is to improve the solo experience of levelling, choosing traits, skills and making gear choices as you progress through the story. sure I could strip naked and run into the final battle. I could also ignore the story and get max traits and gear before starting it. but both would defeat the purpose of role playing in what is supposed to be an mmorpg.

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    I had played Guild Wars for years, and had no issues after all that time in that game. But, I remember, back at launch and for some time after, how difficult some of the story instances were in this game. Of course, they are 'face-roll' easy now, but they sure weren't back then, when I didn't know 1/50th of what I know now. I think the Core Personal Story is fine; remember...it's new players that play that content, as well as the Core maps. Don't forget we all were new and learning when we started.

    I don't think the Core Personal Story will be changed much, if at all. 'Challenging' content is the newer L80 content, which newer players who boost to L80 have quite a difficult time with, if the posts we see on the forums are any indication.

    Perhaps, we, as veterans, forget the challenge some of those old instances provided back then.

    Yes, I took that into consideration in my original post. unlocking hard mode for people that finish the game is the suggestion here.

  • @Fipmip.7219 said:

    @YoukiNeko.6047 said:

    Sure difficulty setting is fine, but no exclusive rewards or achievements. You want challenge right? Not exclusive rewards and bragging rights?

    I think there should be a reward at the end for the simple reason that people expect such things. Nothing too crazy, perhaps a title or a unique skin. Something that makes the effort feel all the sweeter once the end is reached. I'd feel fairly cheated if I had no commemorative aspect to completing a long and difficult challenge, especially when the game rewards you for every other such feat.

    @phs.6089 said:
    Just take of your gear, weapon only, done. We used to run low level dungeons in one of the game I played, naked. Was fun to get wiped to a boss we could one shot.

    The point is to improve the solo experience of levelling, choosing traits, skills and making gear choices as you progress through the story. sure I could strip naked and run into the final battle. I could also ignore the story and get max traits and gear before starting it. but both would defeat the purpose of role playing in what is supposed to be an mmorpg.

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    I had played Guild Wars for years, and had no issues after all that time in that game. But, I remember, back at launch and for some time after, how difficult some of the story instances were in this game. Of course, they are 'face-roll' easy now, but they sure weren't back then, when I didn't know 1/50th of what I know now. I think the Core Personal Story is fine; remember...it's new players that play that content, as well as the Core maps. Don't forget we all were new and learning when we started.

    I don't think the Core Personal Story will be changed much, if at all. 'Challenging' content is the newer L80 content, which newer players who boost to L80 have quite a difficult time with, if the posts we see on the forums are any indication.

    Perhaps, we, as veterans, forget the challenge some of those old instances provided back then.

    Yes, I took that into consideration in my original post. unlocking hard mode for people that finish the game is the suggestion here.

    Well the challenge should be your reward or else you just want new exclusive rewards.
    When I decide to do a CS:GO round with bots, the game doesn't reward me in anyway if the bots are set to the highest difficulty.
    So why should you get rewarded more than the most players that find the content challenging enough?

    Back in the days when I wanted bigger challenge from the dungeons I usually tried to solo them. But I did it for the fun of it.
    So you can easily wear all whites on the level that the story unlocks with lets say only turrets as engi or spirit weapons as guardian.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Balthazar deserved a cm tbh while ps wont really benefit from it.

  • Urud.4925Urud.4925 Member ✭✭✭

    I totally agree with @Inculpatus cedo.9234 . When I did the personal story for the first time, with bad gear and without knowing well my class (that I still don't know...) and what to do, I died many times. I recently played the last but one chapter and killed the boss in 15 seconds and I was baffled to think that I spent something like 5-6 minutes the first time.
    Also, apparently ArenaNet said that it's too difficult to add the replayability of the personal story (I once asked because I wished I could replay it, like the other stories). You can't put achievements on a content that cannot be replayed.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Would like to see this, mostly because I think the game would benefit from having some/more difficulty settings, considering how people have such vastly different proficiency with the combat/class/build mechanics of this game.

    But I'm fairly certain ANet won't do this, they've indicated in the past that making the Personal Story re-playable is very difficult/not worth it for them. And they've avoided changing things in old core material as much as possible.

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    Currently playing: One Must Fall 2097, Spirit Island (board game)

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭

    If it is difficult to create mechanics around replaying the personal story I understand. But I'm talking about when you create a new character and decide to get through the story again. In addition to seeing what you might have missed, I want to look forward to actually fighting with the encounters rather than just looking at it as a chore to get to the next bit. furthermore I have witnessed my friends enthusiasm for the details and combat system deteriorate with the repeated easy encounters.

    @YoukiNeko.6047 said:

    Well the challenge should be your reward or else you just want new exclusive rewards.
    When I decide to do a CS:GO round with bots, the game doesn't reward me in anyway if the bots are set to the highest difficulty.
    So why should you get rewarded more than the most players that find the content challenging enough?

    Back in the days when I wanted bigger challenge from the dungeons I usually tried to solo them. But I did it for the fun of it.
    So you can easily wear all whites on the level that the story unlocks with lets say only turrets as engi or spirit weapons as guardian.

    I don't, actually. I'm suggesting both the challenge and reward. I'd still be happy if Anet decided to add only the challenge, but in my opinion it would be improved further still with the reward. It's that simple.

    Also saying that most players find the content challenging enough is unfounded. As I said the reward should be included because the game would be inconsistent if it didn't, which would probably upset some people reaching the end of hard mode only to find there's no lasting achievement, unlike what happens when you complete hard mode fractals or hard mode dungeons

    CSGO does not reward you at all for playing with pffline bots, hard or easy. what point are you trying to make here? CSGO is a game that rewards people the better they do, and is based around getting better at playing the game. GW2 is a game that rewards people in a similar way, with higher level and difficulty challenges leading to typically better rewards, in general.

  • @Fipmip.7219 said:
    If it is difficult to create mechanics around replaying the personal story I understand. But I'm talking about when you create a new character and decide to get through the story again. In addition to seeing what you might have missed, I want to look forward to actually fighting with the encounters rather than just looking at it as a chore to get to the next bit. furthermore I have witnessed my friends enthusiasm for the details and combat system deteriorate with the repeated easy encounters.

    @YoukiNeko.6047 said:

    Well the challenge should be your reward or else you just want new exclusive rewards.
    When I decide to do a CS:GO round with bots, the game doesn't reward me in anyway if the bots are set to the highest difficulty.
    So why should you get rewarded more than the most players that find the content challenging enough?

    Back in the days when I wanted bigger challenge from the dungeons I usually tried to solo them. But I did it for the fun of it.
    So you can easily wear all whites on the level that the story unlocks with lets say only turrets as engi or spirit weapons as guardian.

    I don't, actually. I'm suggesting both the challenge and reward. I'd still be happy if Anet decided to add only the challenge, but in my opinion it would be improved further still with the reward. It's that simple.

    Also saying that most players find the content challenging enough is unfounded. As I said the reward should be included because the game would be inconsistent if it didn't, which would probably upset some people reaching the end of hard mode only to find there's no lasting achievement, unlike what happens when you complete hard mode fractals or hard mode dungeons

    CSGO does not reward you at all for playing with pffline bots, hard or easy. what point are you trying to make here? CSGO is a game that rewards people the better they do, and is based around getting better at playing the game. GW2 is a game that rewards people in a similar way, with higher level and difficulty challenges leading to typically better rewards, in general.

    I did give CSGO as example because you actually get something from playing against harder bots - you learn more about the game.
    GW2 personal story is mostly lore, with the latest LS adding more challenging mechanics, but still it was mostly about the lore, not the rewards or anything else.

    You want challenge mode - and I'm okay with that, then again you can make it challenging for yourself quite easily.
    But instead of handicapping yourself to make it more challenging you want the devs to add difficulty settings and then even rewards for them.
    How adding more exclusive rewards help the game? We already have raid skins and legendary armor for that exclusive feeling.

    And about the players having problem with the content, well just look around the forums. Players still have trouble with most LS bosses (even after some of them were nerfed.)

    So while I'm okay with ANet adding difficulty settings, I'm against them adding special rewards for the higher difficultly.
    The rewards should be the same no matter the difficulty (and players should receive the reward only once - no matter what difficulty they decided to play it).

    I have to ask. Since we have fractals and raids why don't you just stick to them for challenging content and unique rewards?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @YoukiNeko.6047 said:
    But instead of handicapping yourself to make it more challenging you want the devs to add difficulty settings and then even rewards for them.

    Again this ridiculous argument, and the answer is still the same: handicapping yourself doesn't create more interesting/exciting mechanics, it only turns something boring into something frustrating.

    About the actual topic now, I doubt they will touch any old content again. If you want a more challenging story play the expansions or the living story. Since story cannot be replayed for technical reasons, making changes to it (and adding new rewards and achievements no less) is pointless. Not really worth it.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @YoukiNeko.6047 said:
    But instead of handicapping yourself to make it more challenging you want the devs to add difficulty settings and then even rewards for them.

    Again this ridiculous argument, and the answer is still the same: handicapping yourself doesn't create more interesting/exciting mechanics, it only turns something boring into something frustrating.

    About the actual topic now, I doubt they will touch any old content again. If you want a more challenging story play the expansions or the living story. Since story cannot be replayed for technical reasons, making changes to it (and adding new rewards and achievements no less) is pointless. Not really worth it.

    Handicapping yourself can be fun. If you can't figure it how, then too bad for you.
    WoW for example have some pretty nice Iron Man challenge rules why don't you try some of them in GW2?
    Or is it too hard to play outside the theme park?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @YoukiNeko.6047 said:
    Handicapping yourself can be fun. If you can't figure it how, then too bad for you.

    No it can't be fun handicapping myself because it doesn't give my enemies more exciting mechanics to deal with. I get my fun from content by dealing with complex mechanics that require me to think and use my brain, use the proper skills and builds to beat them, not by making mobs take longer to kill or deal more damage. The pre-Heart of Thorns high end Fractals were full of 1-shot-kill damage sponges with infinite amount of hit points, I'd never call that "challenging", engaging or fun to play (thank god they changed that). How are people finding this kind of artificial "difficulty increase" fun is beyond me.

    What I find fun in this kind of discussion is how I should "handicap" myself and use sub-optimal gear/build to make the content more challenging, while those struggling with the content can't use optimal gear/build to succeed in it and demand it being lowered in difficulty because they find it hard to play.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @YoukiNeko.6047 said:
    Handicapping yourself can be fun. If you can't figure it how, then too bad for you.

    No it can't be fun handicapping myself because it doesn't give my enemies more exciting mechanics to deal with. I get my fun from content by dealing with complex mechanics that require me to think and use my brain, use the proper skills and builds to beat them, not by making mobs take longer to kill or deal more damage. The pre-Heart of Thorns high end Fractals were full of 1-shot-kill damage sponges with infinite amount of hit points, I'd never call that "challenging", engaging or fun to play (thank god they changed that). How are people finding this kind of artificial "difficulty increase" fun is beyond me.

    What I find fun in this kind of discussion is how I should "handicap" myself and use sub-optimal gear/build to make the content more challenging, while those struggling with the content can't use optimal gear/build to succeed in it and demand it being lowered in difficulty because they find it hard to play.

    Have you tried soloing AC? Or using non meta build?
    If fun for you is using meta builds and burning content using guides, then yes the game is boring and it would never be challenging.
    But then again even Dark Souls is boring once you learn the basic patterns and timings.

    I've actually had fun trying to solo different bosses or use strange builds/stats combos.
    Did you find Liadri the Concealing Dark fun?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @YoukiNeko.6047 said:
    Or using non meta build?

    Why would I use a build that is not appropriate for the content I'm playing just to "make it harder"? The game gives you all those tools to play with and you want to trash them to make it "more challenging"? This is the equivalent to the "get gud" argument that appears when someone tells you the game is too hard, only this time you say "get bad"! If the game is too easy for you, "get bad!" And has the exact same impact as the "get gud" and "l2p" arguments on those other threads: approximately zero.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @YoukiNeko.6047 said:
    Or using non meta build?

    Why would I use a build that is not appropriate for the content I'm playing just to "make it harder"? The game gives you all those tools to play with and you want to trash them to make it "more challenging"? This is the equivalent to the "get gud" argument that appears when someone tells you the game is too hard, only this time you say "get bad"! If the game is too easy for you, "get bad!" And has the exact same impact as the "get gud" and "l2p" arguments on those other threads: approximately zero.

    Just because a build is not meta doesn't mean it's bad. "get gud" and "l2p" are sometimes actually valid.
    If you can't figure for yourself how to make the content more challenging, then you are bound to get bored pretty fast.
    Because the devs can put only a limited amount of content targeted at a much wider audience.
    The reason why many games are trying to offload the content generation to the players and reason why Minecraft is so successful, is because the players are given tools
    and they can do whatever they want with them. In theme park games like GW2, WoW, Call of Duty you need to think outside the box or else you will get bored way to fast.

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2018

    I've already answered this partially.

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    The point is to improve the solo experience of levelling, choosing traits, skills and making gear choices as you progress through the story. sure I could strip naked and run into the final battle. I could also ignore the story and get max traits and gear before starting it. but both would defeat the purpose of role playing in what is supposed to be an mmorpg.

    Fractals raids, expansions and LW are end game content. This post is about the character building and the rpg and replayability experience. If I build a new character one way to get to 80 is to replay the story. This is an experience that can be improved in multiple ways, for instance adding challenge settings, and even some rewards for completing them.

    I've played this game for a while and am currently playing through with some friends that I have introduced to the game. As we churn through the content at basically running speed I can feel the pressure of just wanting to get to the end and witness the story, and then get to the interesting challenging stuff like dungeons and expansions. What do you want me to tell them? just remove the gear you've been getting to make it harder? Is this what we have to do to make the game fun?

    You can't tell an entire demographic to just 'go make your own fun.' what if the game had no dungeons or raids, would you tell people to just do meta events in nothing but white gear?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @YoukiNeko.6047 said:
    If you can't figure for yourself how to make the content more challenging, then you are bound to get bored pretty fast.

    Or expect the developers to release ever more challenging content, without the player actually needing to do anything. Fortunately the developers at Arenanet continue to improve their game and make it progressively more challenging.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @YoukiNeko.6047 said:
    If you can't figure for yourself how to make the content more challenging, then you are bound to get bored pretty fast.

    Or expect the developers to release ever more challenging content, without the player actually needing to do anything. Fortunately the developers at Arenanet continue to improve their game and make it progressively more challenging.

    I see. Well then lets hope they keep delivering.

  • Well its not so far fetched they added Hard Mode in Guildwars after it was like 4 years old. Changed the game so anywhere you could pick hard mode or normal mode except pvp type stuff of course. Not sure how it would work here though since Guildwars is all instanced except for towns and outposts. I guess all instanced content could have that choice.

  • Just gonna remind people that the game used to be quite a bit harder, yet ANet has trivialized a lot of it over the years.

  • @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    I had played Guild Wars for years, and had no issues after all that time in that game. But, I remember, back at launch and for some time after, how difficult some of the story instances were in this game. Of course, they are 'face-roll' easy now, but they sure weren't back then, when I didn't know 1/50th of what I know now. I think the Core Personal Story is fine; remember...it's new players that play that content, as well as the Core maps. Don't forget we all were new and learning when we started.

    I don't think the Core Personal Story will be changed much, if at all. 'Challenging' content is the newer L80 content, which newer players who boost to L80 have quite a difficult time with, if the posts we see on the forums are any indication.

    Perhaps, we, as veterans, forget the challenge some of those old instances provided back then.

    When I first played Guild Wars in the summer of 2005, I somehow managed to beat Prophecies and using only henchmen (with the exception of that one mission I absolutely had to group up with other players, Thirsty River I think it was). Armor? Well, I did manage to get a set of Elite Noble for my mesmer, but I never added any sigils or runes, simply because I didn't know what to do with them. However, I plodded along, being very careful to not over-aggro, until I finally beat the game and talked to everyone at the end celebration. Managed to complete Sorrow's Furnace that way too. It was pretty difficult, to me anyways.

    It was only later when someone explained to me what sigils and runes do, that I realized just how ignorant I was, and then amazed that I got anything done at all.

    So yes, I agree that the Core Personal Story is fine as it is.

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  • Biff.5312Biff.5312 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Part of the problem with just making it 'more difficult' is that this tends to simply mean more HP on the bosses. Another is that not all professions are equally well-suited to all the story challenges, so as they get harder it will become more obviously difficult for some than for others. Frankly I think you should just look elsewhere for hard content (new fractals?). The story imo should just be access to lore for those who are interested.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:
    No it can't be fun handicapping myself because it doesn't give my enemies more exciting mechanics to deal with. I get my fun from content by dealing with complex mechanics that require me to think and use my brain, use the proper skills and builds to beat them, not by making mobs take longer to kill or deal more damage. The pre-Heart of Thorns high end Fractals were full of 1-shot-kill damage sponges with infinite amount of hit points, I'd never call that "challenging", engaging or fun to play (thank god they changed that). How are people finding this kind of artificial "difficulty increase" fun is beyond me.

    I highly doubt an added hard mode would add any new mechanics. It would simply up the difficulty and damage. I'm kind of surprised you get any fun from GW2 if complex mechanics is your thing. Sometimes, there are badly communicated mechanics, but none that are mentally engaging on any level.

  • Urud.4925Urud.4925 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fipmip.7219 said:
    I've already answered this partially.

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    The point is to improve the solo experience of levelling, choosing traits, skills and making gear choices as you progress through the story. sure I could strip naked and run into the final battle. I could also ignore the story and get max traits and gear before starting it. but both would defeat the purpose of role playing in what is supposed to be an mmorpg.

    Fractals raids, expansions and LW are end game content. This post is about the character building and the rpg and replayability experience. If I build a new character one way to get to 80 is to replay the story. This is an experience that can be improved in multiple ways, for instance adding challenge settings, and even some rewards for completing them.

    I've played this game for a while and am currently playing through with some friends that I have introduced to the game. As we churn through the content at basically running speed I can feel the pressure of just wanting to get to the end and witness the story, and then get to the interesting challenging stuff like dungeons and expansions. What do you want me to tell them? just remove the gear you've been getting to make it harder? Is this what we have to do to make the game fun?

    You can't tell an entire demographic to just 'go make your own fun.' what if the game had no dungeons or raids, would you tell people to just do meta events in nothing but white gear?

    Your friends are playing with you, that are already a veteran and know what to do. But try to think about the new players that start to play GW2 alone. I'm sure they won't have such a smooth and easy fights like your friends have. The personal story is quite old, and afaik quite difficult to revamp (and honestly I don't see the need). PoF's story is more challenging (and several players complained for this), HoT has even a CM against the last boss, definitely challenging. They have indeed achievements and rewards, since they can be played again. If ArenaNet decided to nerf the core one, it probably means that someone complained when it was more difficult.

    Since you know the game, you could alternate the personal story with some world boss, like Triple Wurm. The whole Central Tyria is newbie-friendly, there's no point in increasing the difficulty on a "almost mandatory" content that takes few hours, when the rest of the maps are easy anyway. It should introduce new players to the lore, give a background for their character, some RP. You play it to read some dialogue, if you like it, not to rush it to the end. If you want some challenge, why don't you try to level up on maps with mobs of higher level? Bring your friends to some fancy spot!

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A hard mode for story bosses could be something they would implement in future content. Emphasis on "could". I do not see them apply it retroactively for various reasons.

    They will likely open up a couple of cans of worms if indeed they do so:
    1) If HM gives you rewards that are unique to that content, they will get a crapstorm of complaints from casual players.
    2) If they implement a HM, there will be still be complaints about the difficulty and therefore nothing much will change in that respect. Some will find it not hard enough and others too hard. So then there will be the next request for a Super Hard Mode.

    A couple of side comments:
    1) Personally I think that harder content should be rewarded accordingly. So I do not share the complaint but I do expect it.
    2) I am not a believer that ArenaNet can actually provide the difficulty people are asking for, also because of the way the combat system works. So, it seems unlikely that they want to do this because it doesn't advance things for them.

    In the end there will still be complaints about difficulty regardless of whether they implement HM or not. So why do the effort and get the same result?

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Menadena.7482Menadena.7482 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fipmip.7219 said:
    I think there should be a reward at the end for the simple reason that people expect such things. Nothing too crazy, perhaps a title or a unique skin. Something that makes the effort feel all the sweeter once the end is reached. I'd feel fairly cheated if I had no commemorative aspect to completing a long and difficult challenge, especially when the game rewards you for every other such feat.

    I would love to see difficulty settings. Maybe for easy it would be just the basic like map access (possibly more depending on what wants story completion). For normal it would be as it is now in both difficulty and rewards. More difficult would get you more rewards. Nothing above easy's rewards would be part of an achieve that was a must (the bandolier or the 5th mount), possibly the most difficult level would include a title.

    New to the game? Feel free to give a yell if you need PVE help.

  • Menadena.7482Menadena.7482 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    A hard mode for story bosses could be something they would implement in future content. Emphasis on "could". I do not see them apply it retroactively for various reasons.

    They will likely open up a couple of cans of worms if indeed they do so:
    1) If HM gives you rewards that are unique to that content, they will get a crapstorm of complaints from casual players.
    2) If they implement a HM, there will be still be complaints about the difficulty and therefore nothing much will change in that respect. Some will find it not hard enough and others too hard. So then there will be the next request for a Super Hard Mode.

    A couple of side comments:
    1) Personally I think that harder content should be rewarded accordingly. So I do not share the complaint but I do expect it.
    2) I am not a believer that ArenaNet can actually provide the difficulty people are asking for, also because of the way the combat system works. So, it seems unlikely that they want to do this because it doesn't advance things for them.

    In the end there will still be complaints about difficulty regardless of whether they implement HM or not. So why do the effort and get the same result?

    When you complete a chapter or instance you get two basic types of rewards: content specific (start of bandolier in chapter 2, map access always, start of griffon in POF, etc) and salvage stuff. I would put the content specific at the lowest level and no salvage stuff. Higher levels would get more and more salvage stuff (with chances at rares and exotics with skins you can get elsewhere). The top level I would also give a title to.

    New to the game? Feel free to give a yell if you need PVE help.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Menadena.7482 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    A hard mode for story bosses could be something they would implement in future content. Emphasis on "could". I do not see them apply it retroactively for various reasons.

    They will likely open up a couple of cans of worms if indeed they do so:
    1) If HM gives you rewards that are unique to that content, they will get a crapstorm of complaints from casual players.
    2) If they implement a HM, there will be still be complaints about the difficulty and therefore nothing much will change in that respect. Some will find it not hard enough and others too hard. So then there will be the next request for a Super Hard Mode.

    A couple of side comments:
    1) Personally I think that harder content should be rewarded accordingly. So I do not share the complaint but I do expect it.
    2) I am not a believer that ArenaNet can actually provide the difficulty people are asking for, also because of the way the combat system works. So, it seems unlikely that they want to do this because it doesn't advance things for them.

    In the end there will still be complaints about difficulty regardless of whether they implement HM or not. So why do the effort and get the same result?

    When you complete a chapter or instance you get two basic types of rewards: content specific (start of bandolier in chapter 2, map access always, start of griffon in POF, etc) and salvage stuff. I would put the content specific at the lowest level and no salvage stuff. Higher levels would get more and more salvage stuff (with chances at rares and exotics with skins you can get elsewhere). The top level I would also give a title to.

    Sounds good to me. A title for completing the entire story in HM (per story line) and of course some additional achievements to go with it. That would work for the reward side without too many complaints I'd say.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Menadena.7482Menadena.7482 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Menadena.7482 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    A hard mode for story bosses could be something they would implement in future content. Emphasis on "could". I do not see them apply it retroactively for various reasons.

    They will likely open up a couple of cans of worms if indeed they do so:
    1) If HM gives you rewards that are unique to that content, they will get a crapstorm of complaints from casual players.
    2) If they implement a HM, there will be still be complaints about the difficulty and therefore nothing much will change in that respect. Some will find it not hard enough and others too hard. So then there will be the next request for a Super Hard Mode.

    A couple of side comments:
    1) Personally I think that harder content should be rewarded accordingly. So I do not share the complaint but I do expect it.
    2) I am not a believer that ArenaNet can actually provide the difficulty people are asking for, also because of the way the combat system works. So, it seems unlikely that they want to do this because it doesn't advance things for them.

    In the end there will still be complaints about difficulty regardless of whether they implement HM or not. So why do the effort and get the same result?

    When you complete a chapter or instance you get two basic types of rewards: content specific (start of bandolier in chapter 2, map access always, start of griffon in POF, etc) and salvage stuff. I would put the content specific at the lowest level and no salvage stuff. Higher levels would get more and more salvage stuff (with chances at rares and exotics with skins you can get elsewhere). The top level I would also give a title to.

    Sounds good to me. A title for completing the entire story in HM (per story line) and of course some additional achievements to go with it. That would work for the reward side without too many complaints I'd say.

    Yes. Hard mode players want bragging rights. Easy mode players just want the content specific stuff. Everyone is happy and can choose what level of difficulty is appropriate.

    New to the game? Feel free to give a yell if you need PVE help.

  • @Menadena.7482 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Menadena.7482 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    A hard mode for story bosses could be something they would implement in future content. Emphasis on "could". I do not see them apply it retroactively for various reasons.

    They will likely open up a couple of cans of worms if indeed they do so:
    1) If HM gives you rewards that are unique to that content, they will get a crapstorm of complaints from casual players.
    2) If they implement a HM, there will be still be complaints about the difficulty and therefore nothing much will change in that respect. Some will find it not hard enough and others too hard. So then there will be the next request for a Super Hard Mode.

    A couple of side comments:
    1) Personally I think that harder content should be rewarded accordingly. So I do not share the complaint but I do expect it.
    2) I am not a believer that ArenaNet can actually provide the difficulty people are asking for, also because of the way the combat system works. So, it seems unlikely that they want to do this because it doesn't advance things for them.

    In the end there will still be complaints about difficulty regardless of whether they implement HM or not. So why do the effort and get the same result?

    When you complete a chapter or instance you get two basic types of rewards: content specific (start of bandolier in chapter 2, map access always, start of griffon in POF, etc) and salvage stuff. I would put the content specific at the lowest level and no salvage stuff. Higher levels would get more and more salvage stuff (with chances at rares and exotics with skins you can get elsewhere). The top level I would also give a title to.

    Sounds good to me. A title for completing the entire story in HM (per story line) and of course some additional achievements to go with it. That would work for the reward side without too many complaints I'd say.

    Yes. Hard mode players want bragging rights. Easy mode players just want the content specific stuff. Everyone is happy and can choose what level of difficulty is appropriate.

    Like those achievements? I forgot which story was it but its got something to do with a centaur being the last boss and I think u must not get hit by some abilities. Doing the achievement kind of increases the difficulty and gives u bragging rights.I'd rather have them spend more on map designs though. Want more maps like HoT. A few pof maps I find kind of boring.

  • Pifil.5193Pifil.5193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd be OK with a hard mode being added to the Story instances so long as it was single player only. Go crazy, beef up the mobs, turn the bosses into one hit KO machines and do a hard reset to one of a sparse set of checkpoints whenever you get defeated, respawning all the enemies you've defeated.

    It has to be single player otherwise it's not hard, one can get carried by a group, and people will be selling runs within a few days.

  • Urud.4925Urud.4925 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2018

    @Pifil.5193 said:
    I'd be OK with a hard mode being added to the Story instances so long as it was single player only. Go crazy, beef up the mobs, turn the bosses into one hit KO machines and do a hard reset to one of a sparse set of checkpoints whenever you get defeated, respawning all the enemies you've defeated.

    It has to be single player otherwise it's not hard, one can get carried by a group, and people will be selling runs within a few days.

    Basically you want story instances like a crown pavilion or a HoT adventure. Wouldn't be just easier to introduce new solo contents, kind of fractal for 1 player, and leaving the story as it is? So the people who just want to enjoy the story wouldn't be worried about choosing the difficulty/feeling compelled to re-play it to get all the achievements, and the ones looking for challenges and titles to show off could just kill mobs without being forced to read all the dialogues.
    It seems easier to me, rather than risking to destroy parts that already work just fine.

    EDIT: @Briareos.1865 I think you refer to "Dodgy Crowd", against the mighty Togonn (who had all the rights of the world to hate us), in LW2. That achievement was hard indeed (mainly because my PC is crappy and I couldn't see well the sandpit). (and gratz for the name, it brought back to my mind some nice memories)

  • Pifil.5193Pifil.5193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Urud.4925 said:

    @Pifil.5193 said:
    I'd be OK with a hard mode being added to the Story instances so long as it was single player only. Go crazy, beef up the mobs, turn the bosses into one hit KO machines and do a hard reset to one of a sparse set of checkpoints whenever you get defeated, respawning all the enemies you've defeated.

    It has to be single player otherwise it's not hard, one can get carried by a group, and people will be selling runs within a few days.

    Basically you want story instances like a crown pavilion or a HoT adventure. Wouldn't be just easier to introduce new solo contents, kind of fractal for 1 player, and leaving the story as it is? So the people who just want to enjoy the story wouldn't be worried about choosing the difficulty/feeling compelled to re-play it to get all the achievements, and the ones looking for challenges and titles to show off could just kill mobs without being forced to read all the dialogues.
    It seems easier to me, rather than risking to destroy parts that already work just fine.

    EDIT: @Briareos.1865 I think you refer to "Dodgy Crowd", against the mighty Togonn (who had all the rights of the world to hate us), in LW2. That achievement was hard indeed (mainly because my PC is crappy and I couldn't see well the sandpit). (and gratz for the name, it brought back to my mind some nice memories)

    Actually I don't particularly want this, but if they were add a hard mode to appeal to those who do want it. Then I think it should be single player for the reasons I give. It shouldn't have any particular achievements, and certainly shouldn't be part of the current story journal achievements or be required for a Living World Episode meta achievement.

    They certainly shouldn't add it to existing content and certainly not to the personal story which can't be replayed anyway.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Urud.4925 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:
    I've already answered this partially.

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    The point is to improve the solo experience of levelling, choosing traits, skills and making gear choices as you progress through the story. sure I could strip naked and run into the final battle. I could also ignore the story and get max traits and gear before starting it. but both would defeat the purpose of role playing in what is supposed to be an mmorpg.

    Fractals raids, expansions and LW are end game content. This post is about the character building and the rpg and replayability experience. If I build a new character one way to get to 80 is to replay the story. This is an experience that can be improved in multiple ways, for instance adding challenge settings, and even some rewards for completing them.

    I've played this game for a while and am currently playing through with some friends that I have introduced to the game. As we churn through the content at basically running speed I can feel the pressure of just wanting to get to the end and witness the story, and then get to the interesting challenging stuff like dungeons and expansions. What do you want me to tell them? just remove the gear you've been getting to make it harder? Is this what we have to do to make the game fun?

    You can't tell an entire demographic to just 'go make your own fun.' what if the game had no dungeons or raids, would you tell people to just do meta events in nothing but white gear?

    Your friends are playing with you, that are already a veteran and know what to do. But try to think about the new players that start to play GW2 alone. I'm sure they won't have such a smooth and easy fights like your friends have. The personal story is quite old, and afaik quite difficult to revamp (and honestly I don't see the need). PoF's story is more challenging (and several players complained for this), HoT has even a CM against the last boss, definitely challenging. They have indeed achievements and rewards, since they can be played again. If ArenaNet decided to nerf the core one, it probably means that someone complained when it was more difficult.

    Since you know the game, you could alternate the personal story with some world boss, like Triple Wurm. The whole Central Tyria is newbie-friendly, there's no point in increasing the difficulty on a "almost mandatory" content that takes few hours, when the rest of the maps are easy anyway. It should introduce new players to the lore, give a background for their character, some RP. You play it to read some dialogue, if you like it, not to rush it to the end. If you want some challenge, why don't you try to level up on maps with mobs of higher level? Bring your friends to some fancy spot!

    Or s/he could let the friends set the pace and just follow along seeing the sights, instead of running ahead clearing like it sounds from the post.

  • Pifil.5193Pifil.5193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Urud.4925 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:
    I've already answered this partially.

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    The point is to improve the solo experience of levelling, choosing traits, skills and making gear choices as you progress through the story. sure I could strip naked and run into the final battle. I could also ignore the story and get max traits and gear before starting it. but both would defeat the purpose of role playing in what is supposed to be an mmorpg.

    Fractals raids, expansions and LW are end game content. This post is about the character building and the rpg and replayability experience. If I build a new character one way to get to 80 is to replay the story. This is an experience that can be improved in multiple ways, for instance adding challenge settings, and even some rewards for completing them.

    I've played this game for a while and am currently playing through with some friends that I have introduced to the game. As we churn through the content at basically running speed I can feel the pressure of just wanting to get to the end and witness the story, and then get to the interesting challenging stuff like dungeons and expansions. What do you want me to tell them? just remove the gear you've been getting to make it harder? Is this what we have to do to make the game fun?

    You can't tell an entire demographic to just 'go make your own fun.' what if the game had no dungeons or raids, would you tell people to just do meta events in nothing but white gear?

    Your friends are playing with you, that are already a veteran and know what to do. But try to think about the new players that start to play GW2 alone. I'm sure they won't have such a smooth and easy fights like your friends have. The personal story is quite old, and afaik quite difficult to revamp (and honestly I don't see the need). PoF's story is more challenging (and several players complained for this), HoT has even a CM against the last boss, definitely challenging. They have indeed achievements and rewards, since they can be played again. If ArenaNet decided to nerf the core one, it probably means that someone complained when it was more difficult.

    Since you know the game, you could alternate the personal story with some world boss, like Triple Wurm. The whole Central Tyria is newbie-friendly, there's no point in increasing the difficulty on a "almost mandatory" content that takes few hours, when the rest of the maps are easy anyway. It should introduce new players to the lore, give a background for their character, some RP. You play it to read some dialogue, if you like it, not to rush it to the end. If you want some challenge, why don't you try to level up on maps with mobs of higher level? Bring your friends to some fancy spot!

    Or s/he could let the friends set the pace and just follow along seeing the sights, instead of running ahead clearing like it sounds from the post.

    Yep, I find it irritating whenever I'm playing with someone who is rushing ahead because they already know the content.

    It's part of the reason I don't enjoy PUG instanced content in this (or any other) game, you so often encounter the people who are more eager to finish the content than to play it (the guys who are always asking "why we waiting?")

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭

    Just to be clear, I'm asking for hard mode to be unlocked after completing the story once, and then being available on subsequent characters. Medium can also exist for newbies currently finding the story missions too easy.

    The goal is to improve the leveling experience, with traits, abilities and gear choices meaning more, as well as you know, just being fun for people that like it hard. Again, this could be cheesed by people that just ignore story until they're maxed out, but the idea is that since the reward is nothing crazy, people should be allowed to do that if they want to just ignore the challenge.

    Statements like maps are easy, just handicap yourself, do world bosses, stop running ahead (I don't), just do fractals/expansions/end game related stuff, are not really addressing what I'm proposing.

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Idk, the purpose of story (imo) is to make the player feel like a kitten, no matter how poorly they are playing. Because, realistically, story is probably the "tutorial" most new players are going to follow, and they will be too busy spamming their cool new skills to care that enemies are dying in droves without any resistance.

    Onto the main topic though, I'm not sure a "hard" mode would be possible without a complete redesign of the Personal Story. Many of the encounters wouldn't really be that challenging even if you simply upped the npc's damage or turned them into health sponges - which is, from my perspective, lazy game design.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Westenev.5289 said:
    Idk, the purpose of story (imo) is to make the player feel like a kitten, no matter how poorly they are playing. Because, realistically, story is probably the "tutorial" most new players are going to follow, and they will be too busy spamming their cool new skills to care that enemies are dying in droves without any resistance.

    Onto the main topic though, I'm not sure a "hard" mode would be possible without a complete redesign of the Personal Story. Many of the encounters wouldn't really be that challenging even if you simply upped the npc's damage or turned them into health sponges - which is, from my perspective, lazy game design.

    I certainly don't expect it to be applied retroactively, but it could be an option for new boss fights like the next expansion for example, maybe even LS5.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • You can self-impose a "hard mode" on yourself without a lot of backend work on Anet's end.

    Idea: Complete the story through Orr in nothing but the gear you start with (no upgrades, no weapon swapping, etc.). WoW had the Ironman Challenge (I failed). Why not do something similar?

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @YoukiNeko.6047 said:
    If you can't figure for yourself how to make the content more challenging, then you are bound to get bored pretty fast.

    Or expect the developers to release ever more challenging content, without the player actually needing to do anything.

    Or you could learn to adapt to the content and start to like it the way it is.
    (that's how that argument against easy mode raids went, i think).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Some time ago, the Devs changed access to the Core Personal Story because, according to their metrics, players had difficulties with the Core PS. I don't think the Devs will put it back the way it was (allowing one to play encounters far above one's current level), much less change it to include a 'Hard Mode'. Not to mention, last time the Devs changed anything with the PS, it did not turn out will, and caused many bugs in the Personal Story, some which still affect some players today.

  • I would personally love a new hardmode server. All mobs buffed to veteran status and hitting harder. Something that makes you want to group up more.

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Robj.6815 said:
    You can self-impose a "hard mode" on yourself without a lot of backend work on Anet's end.

    Idea: Complete the story through Orr in nothing but the gear you start with (no upgrades, no weapon swapping, etc.). WoW had the Ironman Challenge (I failed). Why not do something similar?

    Wasn't there someone doing Warrior Dodge roll only challenge for personal story?

  • @starlinvf.1358 said:

    @Robj.6815 said:
    You can self-impose a "hard mode" on yourself without a lot of backend work on Anet's end.

    Idea: Complete the story through Orr in nothing but the gear you start with (no upgrades, no weapon swapping, etc.). WoW had the Ironman Challenge (I failed). Why not do something similar?

    Wasn't there someone doing Warrior Dodge roll only challenge for personal story?

    No idea

  • Use an outfit without armor. :o

  • I want a hard pve mode too

    Currently all mobs just run up to you, stare at you, swing their weapon, stare some more and die.

    No special AI, condi, boons, CC, etc. It's boring and what puts PVE off for me.

  • Hesacon.8735Hesacon.8735 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd settle for cleaning it up the instances and bringing them up to HoT or more recent engine quality. Last time I did personal story earlier this year, I spent 5 minutes looking for a risen trash mob to kill while defending a camp because it got stuck behind a tree. Instance went on like normal after, but he was a tricky little risen to find.

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