Downed state - Nerf it ? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Downed state - Nerf it ?

Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭
edited September 27, 2018 in WvW

Are you EVER going to take a serious look at downed state and how much it carries ? I can't count the times i'm fighting 2vs 5+ where downed state is carrying so hard because ressing is faster than finishing for some reason,and cleaving isn't enough either alot of the times.And the ridiculous 4x downed in one minute,get rid of it.All that downed state does is making people rely on others to back them up in a fight where they went down 3x and still because of that stupid mechanic able to win a fight they should have lost.Downed state is for casuals and it only shines when you outman the other side.Do something about this ridiculous carrying mechanic already.By reducing the res speed and making it so people can go down once but the 2nd time theyre dead.

<1345

Comments

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's annoying if you down multiple people but can't cleave through their healing from allies, ultimately just killing you by having a higher collective health pool in small scale or solo fights, but it should exist. The no downstate week showed us how much fun not having downstate can be however and in the end I'll have to agree that it could do with a slight nerf.. Reduce downstate HP so that you can get killed by a single person more easily. Only thing this will do is make situations where you get killed before you even get into the proper downstate happen at a lower player count, but I think that might just be okay.

    That's just how it be sometimes.
    Proud member of [FIRE] on RoF "... since day 1!"
    Infraction Farmer Extraordinaire & Leader of the Big Beautiful Choya

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2018

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    i like downed state. It's fair because you also have a downstate, everyone has a downstate. I'm not gonna lie, it can be annoying. But most of the time it's exciting trying to stop the enemy from ressing. I find that it adds to the action, intensity, and desperation of trying to survive.

    It's not very fair at all as it favors the side with more players. I get that it is has been here since the beginning, and probably won't leave aside from some more event weeks...but when I 1v2 and down someone, then start stomping before or at the same time as they get rezzed and the downed gets rez'd before the stomp finishes...feels bad. Especially when the person rezzing is playing a build that you know doesn't use any healing power...

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Just...bring quickness stomps back. Downed state only really carries if stomper doesn't have stealth, or if the rezzer has it.

    I do prefer no down state though

  • If the no downed state wVW weekend has shown us something, is that it should not be removed.

    But we could use some adjustments.

    Some are way stronger than others. Has anyone ever survived a fight thanks to Vengeful Blast? But then you have skills like Life Leech that have won fights solo after being downed.
    Symbol of Judgment can revive way too fast, and it appears to be affected by symbol traits and even healing power. There should definitely a trial for Downed state and its skills ignoring player stats and having fixed behaviors.
    Rangers are particularly obnoxious. Why are pets trying to revive again after you interrupt, launch away or defeat them? Lick Wounds should have to recharge and be used again for the pet to attempt to revive again. And they can even use pet attacks. ALL profession mechanics should be disabled while downed, a pet should not be able to use their F2 skills, the UI isn't even there. Yet rangers can use those skills.

    And there could be more ways to finish fast, like the daredevil physical elite. 8 of the professions are missing healing and elite skills for their core skill sets to have the full 6 skills (1 healing, 4 utility, 1 elite), it would be a nice idea to create more elites that can finish enemies. For example, a warrior elite shout could be ""You're All Alone!", that knocks down, cripples and gives weakness to the affected enemy, and finishes or damages downed enemies, but when it finishes an enemy it gets double recharge to compensate, or it could have 2 charges and require and consume both to finish an enemy.
    Jade Wind or Chaotic Release could deal bonus damage to downed enemies, or Embrace the Darkness could reduce the revive speed for downed enemies next to the revenant.
    There could be something like an elite engineer gadget that gets attached to an enemy as an effect, and when the timer runs out, the effect explodes, launching up the enemy, and if that enemy goes down before time expires, the effect explodes right away, greatly damaging the downed enemy or instantly finishing them.
    There could be an elite ranger trap that triggers one of those huge swinging logs with spikes (you can see some in the Lake Doric puzzle under Noran's Safe Room). The trap would swing 3 times, and the 3rd hit would defeat anyone downed.
    Elementalist could have an Arcane Devastation arcane elite that would create a thin pillar of reddish light for a few seconds, followed by a mass of energy falling on the target area for massive damage that is always critical, and that deals increased damage or instantly finishes to downed enemies.

    And so on.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    It's annoying if you down multiple people but can't cleave through their healing from allies, ultimately just killing you by having a higher collective health pool in small scale or solo fights, but it should exist. The no downstate week showed us how much fun not having downstate can be however and in the end I'll have to agree that it could do with a slight nerf.. Reduce downstate HP so that you can get killed by a single person more easily. Only thing this will do is make situations where you get killed before you even get into the proper downstate happen at a lower player count, but I think that might just be okay.

    Im asking for a nerf,not the complete removal of it because i know that's never gonna happen with the finishers we have available.If you ever roamed you know what i'm talking about,and it does need a serious nerf.

    Never said it had to be removed, just that it gave us a good taste of what could be. I was expecting some follow up changes back then but it never happened, so who knows

    That's just how it be sometimes.
    Proud member of [FIRE] on RoF "... since day 1!"
    Infraction Farmer Extraordinaire & Leader of the Big Beautiful Choya

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Its far from being fair because it only favors the side with more people,hence the post.

    Everything favors the side with more people. Downstate isn't really a balancing mechanism for that.

  • Yeah, I'd rather keep my downstate. Thanks.

  • Downstate itself is fine. It's Rally that ought to be taken out.

  • Maybe after a Ele buff. But not before.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Made this a year ago after experiencing the "magic" of downed state...

    I am in the "7 seconds of downed state and then dead if not rallied" camp.

    Its an obnoxious mechanic that was put in place to protect the fragile existence of subpar players. I understand and appreciate that. But its time to take the training wheels off.

    My suggestion is to make downed state scale down based on wvw rank so new players are not being horribly abused.

    wvw rank:
    0-100: 75% downed state hp, 4 times= dead, 20 sec duration cap
    101-200: 50% downed state hp, 3 times= dead, 15 sec durartion cap
    201-300: 25% downed state hp, 2 times= dead, 10 sec duration cap

    Lol Justine that's a great example of what i mean.

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah. The blobs and unskilled will cry as loud as they did on the last thread, about how they "need" downstate. I suck and I think it should be removed. It is a crutch for the unskilled. The blob insta-ressing itself does not make for skilled game play and it isn't making those players any better. If they want to get better, and not have to run across the map, change their build or simply get better.

    Carnished Toast (Yum)
    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)

  • I'm in the make it scale off the number of allies and enemies in the area camp. For every enemy in the area (let's say 2000 unit radius from the downed player), you get +10% downed state hp (with a maximum cap of 95%). For every ally in the area (same 2000 unit radius) you get -10% downed state hp (with a cap at 5%). Even fights are not affected.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2018

    @Shining One.1635 said:
    I'm in the make it scale off the number of allies and enemies in the area camp. For every enemy in the area (let's say 2000 unit radius from the downed player), you get +10% downed state hp (with a maximum cap of 95%). For every ally in the area (same 2000 unit radius) you get -10% downed state hp (with a cap at 5%). Even fights are not affected.

    Overall res speed just needs to be reduced and the amount of times someone can go down in one minute.Maybe also add something as doing more damage to downed players,since theyre downed and can't really defend themselves anyway,for easier cleaving.This all doesn't apply to blobbing offcourse,it's strictly the issue in roam/small scale fights which i think anet is overlooking.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Cant win a 2v5 which is entirerly possible with good teamwork and stomp skills?

    Bring 3 people.

    Cant win 3v5 which is even more possible?

    Bring 4 people.

    Oh they brought another 2 instead so its a 4v7 now and you still cant win?

    Bring 5 people.

    That's not something unbalanced or broken - that's how WvW works. That's how we get massive battles. If people just won at a whim because "we're better than casuals", what's the point of fighting?

    to win? this logic is really bad, you know.

    by saying this you effectively mean that the point of fighting is just to bring more and more people. ??

    fighting should be fair. I immediately assume everyone who defends downedstate are casual noobs who never leave spawn without at least 5 other people to insta ress them when they "die"

    strength in numbers should be enough by itself.

    here's an analogy for you:

    those that make 250000$ per year pay 5% income tax, but those that make 20000$ a year pay 95% income tax. does that sound fair to you? should those who already have so much get to have it easier even though they already make so much?? no.

    so why should the smaller group have less of a chance for OTHER that the fact that they have less players?? uneven matchups happen all the time in roaming, guild v guild and zerg fighting.

  • Player.9621Player.9621 Member ✭✭✭

    1 death = 1 rally

    The pointy end goes in the other man.

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2018

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    We had a 2v5 today in WvW. The FB rezbot got all 4 of them up again two times. 8 rezzes. When you fight 2v5 (and these 5 have even a healer) you can't save skills for a FB rezz-prevention. It was so ridiculous I couldn't even rage against it.

    The no-downstate event was the best thing this game has seen so far!

    i agree, FB support capability is beyond broken. Many people in this game are complaining About Scourge and everytime they say FB+Scourge = Brokenb comp. but since PoF release mostly scourge get nerfed heavily while FB only got minor nerfes like 10% heal reduction, WHILE all other classes got massive offensive nerfes. FB is in dire Need of nerfes.

    also often mentioned in other threads, Downstate is a really bad mechnaic for wvw in its current state. Cause it is favoring the already greater fraction. in pvp where you fight 5v5 its a good mechanic, because it makes the fight between even numbers Groups more complexe. for exmple if 1 side is only oneshoot and the other has some classes for reviving teammates the rezzing Team will win. also in pve it is healthy that People can help each other when Fighting some world bosses and go down.

    but in wvw where nearly every fight is between uneven numbers, the greater Group only get favor from downstate. and it is not a Question of skill wether you Play on a small Server or not. but if you do you will Always have enemy Groups that are greater than yours. and is it fair that you got punished by a broken downstate mechanic because you dont bandwagon to the greatest serverlinkings to blob down everything with twice the numbers? downstate finally due to even more bandwagoning. that is not healthy.

  • I don't see a problem with downstate. I don't think it's unfair in the least: if you're fighting 2v5, then it's on you to finish or deny the rally in some other way. Is it harder for the 2 then if it was insta-defeated? Sure, but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing; it just means some of us don't like it.

    Then again, I also like @Justine.6351's suggestion of having it scale with rank. It could even be tied to the game's death penalty mechanic (e.g. >100 rank immediately starts with one stack of DP). That also seems fair.

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2018

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Cant win a 2v5 which is entirerly possible with good teamwork and stomp skills?

    Bring 3 people.

    Cant win 3v5 which is even more possible?

    Bring 4 people.

    Oh they brought another 2 instead so its a 4v7 now and you still cant win?

    Bring 5 people.

    That's not something unbalanced or broken - that's how WvW works. That's how we get massive battles. If people just won at a whim because "we're better than casuals", what's the point of fighting?

    to win? this logic is really bad, you know.

    by saying this you effectively mean that the point of fighting is just to bring more and more people. ??

    fighting should be fair. I immediately assume everyone who defends downedstate are casual noobs who never leave spawn without at least 5 other people to insta ress them when they "die"

    strength in numbers should be enough by itself.

    here's an analogy for you:

    those that make 250000$ per year pay 5% income tax, but those that make 20000$ a year pay 95% income tax. does that sound fair to you? should those who already have so much get to have it easier even though they already make so much?? no.

    so why should the smaller group have less of a chance for OTHER that the fact that they have less players?? uneven matchups happen all the time in roaming, guild v guild and zerg fighting.

    The logic about bringing in income tax is so much better. It fits perfectly with the discussion of downed state in WvW. Its so logical when you think about it. Shall we start to discuss analogies with cars, birds and possibly Trump too? I mean its only logical.

    No, the point is that loosing a fight means you need more people to win. If the enemy then loose, they need to bring more people to win. And if you loose after that, then by logic... you need to bring more people to won again. Strength in numbers drives WvW battles - thats why we get 70 man zergs clashing with each other. But its not the only thing that matters. 2v5 is such an example where skill - like in actual skill use - matters alot. A single knockback, a single stealth, a single stability or invouln pop, all these could secure a stomp. I've been in situations like the video above and guess what - I've won, ha. And of course I've lost. Sometimes because I was stupid, sometimes because I just needed that good wingman. Which is how WvW works. This isnt solo PvP. Skilled players already have a massive advantage in combat.

  • samo.1054samo.1054 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2018

    Downstate should be done with or get nerfed hard. Anyone who ever roamed seriously will know that. It favors the side that outnumbers the enemy ergo the game does not reward someone that fights outnumbered and still manages to kill. That should never be the case. Fighting 1v2, 1v3, constantly downing them, but can't win the fight, because they keep resing each other. So. Much. Fun. If they are bad, they should die or if I'm good, I should be able to win.

    Besides that, downstates are terribly imbalanced between each other.

    Just seriously remove/redesign this disgrace. It has been ruining the game for too long.

  • No downstate event was awesome and should be permanent, also force defeated players to respawn after 5 minutes. Kitten perma stealth deadeyes rezzing each other in a keep indefinetly and it takes like 10 players guarding corpses and even then they are rezzed.

  • down state is a mechanic that favors teams with more numbers. servers with high populations don't need this handicap.

  • Once again, the problem with no downstate is that it promotes more 1 shot insta-kill builds. During that week I saw more Mesmers and Thieves than I can shake a stick at. Also those Thieves and Mesmers would position themselves right between Spawn Point and Zerg making it impossible to get back to a Zerg once you were killed. Thieves and Mesmers are bad enough as is, adding no downstate just makes it worse.

  • @Ubi.4136 said:

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:
    Once again, the problem with no downstate is that it promotes more 1 shot insta-kill builds. During that week I saw more Mesmers and Thieves than I can shake a stick at. Also those Thieves and Mesmers would position themselves right between Spawn Point and Zerg making it impossible to get back to a Zerg once you were killed. Thieves and Mesmers are bad enough as is, adding no downstate just makes it worse.

    It doesn't though. What I saw more of no downstate week was warriors...they were everywhere. The gank groups are always out, usually in groups of 5 or more. With the way it is now, I can engage one and down them, they stealth res each other, and then kill you. At least with no downstate, I would slowly be killing them off. The problem is that** they aren't relying on skill, they are solely relying on numbers. Skill should be what wins fights.**

    +1

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ubi.4136 said:

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:
    Once again, the problem with no downstate is that it promotes more 1 shot insta-kill builds. During that week I saw more Mesmers and Thieves than I can shake a stick at. Also those Thieves and Mesmers would position themselves right between Spawn Point and Zerg making it impossible to get back to a Zerg once you were killed. Thieves and Mesmers are bad enough as is, adding no downstate just makes it worse.

    It doesn't though. What I saw more of no downstate week was warriors...they were everywhere. The gank groups are always out, usually in groups of 5 or more. With the way it is now, I can engage one and down them, they stealth res each other, and then kill you. At least with no downstate, I would slowly be killing them off. The problem is that they aren't relying on skill, they are solely relying on numbers. Skill should be what wins fights.

    yep.

    I get bouncy trolled running alone by a group of 3 players. Well I don't like being bouncy trolled by anyone and so I take that 1v3 and when I drop one of them its always the garbage thief who can safely rally from his buddies while I get no value out of downed state in return. Then I get emoted afterwards by said thief. The thief isn't really mocking me, he is mocking anet and their downed state mechanic because its a joke.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2018

    Nearly everything favours the side that outnumber, if you are 2 vs 5 for instance then guess what, boon sharing, healing, shared damage shields, blasting combo fields, etc all favour the 5 man group, so better remove everything from the game...

    Back on the planet earth the reality is balance is based on equal numbers and downstate is no different than anything else in that regard, better (or at least more organised) players will handle rezzes/stomps better.

  • As a roamer, it can be a pain, however I look at downing an enemy as a victory (as long as they down first) and a kill/stomp is just the icing on the cake. Same if they run away (another victory), mind you I am one up for a chase if it means I can get my icing lol.

    Does it need nerf...i personally don't think so. Was no downstate fun, you bet your tushie it was.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • @Ubi.4136 said:

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:
    Once again, the problem with no downstate is that it promotes more 1 shot insta-kill builds. During that week I saw more Mesmers and Thieves than I can shake a stick at. Also those Thieves and Mesmers would position themselves right between Spawn Point and Zerg making it impossible to get back to a Zerg once you were killed. Thieves and Mesmers are bad enough as is, adding no downstate just makes it worse.

    It doesn't though. What I saw more of no downstate week was warriors...they were everywhere. The gank groups are always out, usually in groups of 5 or more. With the way it is now, I can engage one and down them, they stealth res each other, and then kill you. At least with no downstate, I would slowly be killing them off. The problem is that they aren't relying on skill, they are solely relying on numbers. Skill should be what wins fights.

    But it does though. Just because what you saw was more warriors doesn't mean that that is the norm everywhere at all times. During no downstate week there were more people complaining about more gankers than there were anything else. There were entire threads about it on the forums as well. We've been through this, can't tell you how many threads through this we have been. No downstate encourages people to come up with insta-kill builds. Don't tell me it doesn't. If you do, you are probably one of the insta-kill build players that wants to defend no downstate because you find it more fun to be able to insta-kill more players and get more loot bags. I would be more in favor of a no downstate IF Anet were able to get rid of these one shot kill builds from stealth that everybody seems to love to play. I get it. You want more skilled players. Fine. Get rid of Stealth and one shot builds. That forces people to have to be better skilled at fighting. Now watch all the people come running to defend Thief and Mesmer trying to say that it does take skill to play one of those professions. Sure, it takes skill to play it. Just not to fight with it. There is no skill when you kill somebody who can't fight back. Deny it all you want, but no downstate brings out more Thieves and Mesmers because they get more easy kills than they do with downstate instated.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zinkz.7045 said:
    Nearly everything favours the side that outnumber, if you are 2 vs 5 for instance then guess what, boon sharing, healing, shared damage shields, blasting combo fields, etc all favour the 5 man group, so better remove everything from the game...

    Back on the planet earth the reality is balance is based on equal numbers and downstate is no different than anything else in that regard, better (or at least more organised) players will handle rezzes/stomps better.

    Downed state in particular always disproportionately favors the larger group because the larger your group the easier it is to just run in blow cds and rally off downs or chain res once the outnumbered side runs out of cds.

    With no downed state the margin for error for any sized group is much lower and so any sized group can be instantly whittled down which makes a huge difference in outnumbered fights.

<1345
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