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Honestly, none. Sure, you could put on durability runes, but the power creep is so bad atm, that regardless of your toughness, there are more than a handful of builds that will still 100-0 you in a couple seconds flat...even with max toughness. I would plan for some of the more mobile builds with at least 1 or 2 invulnerables if you really want to roam.

@Ubi.4136 said:Honestly, none. Sure, you could put on durability runes, but the power creep is so bad atm, that regardless of your toughness, there are more than a handful of builds that will still 100-0 you in a couple seconds flat...even with max toughness. I would plan for some of the more mobile builds with at least 1 or 2 invulnerables if you really want to roam.

Rev is fun and strong to play right now, obviously it's not the easiest build to play at his max, but yeah, got to the conclusion that toughness is getting useless more and more.

Another option would be to use a more defensive trait line like Retribution since Versed in Stone offers protection and could help you recover after the initial burst. Other options could include using Rolling Mists so you can use less Precison, using sigil of energy, or steal health on crit food.

@Dagger.2035 said:Another option would be to use a more defensive trait line like Retribution since Versed in Stone offers protection and could help you recover after the initial burst. Other options could include using Rolling Mists so you can use less Precison, using sigil of energy, or steal health on crit food.

Of course I run the precision trait which double up the fury crit chance to 40%.But giving up devastation for retribution I lose quite a bit of damage output, and rev double sword shines at quick bursts.If I give up even the damage will be a less optimal build don't you think?

I usually keep it around dura runes + 2 knight trinkets if I am thinking I will run into groups.

If its against solo players, I will usually use zerker trinkets (dragonhunter, holosmith, spellbreaker).

You see I gave up on toughness builds because everytime I try to play some kind of high toughness build, I will run into some trailblazer condi build and end up not having enough damage to kill the condicheese. Also even 3k armor warrior will still get 1-shot by malicious backstab and will be incapable of doing anything against it as deadeye can just stealth everytime you're about to get near him.

If theyd get rid of these 1-shot houdini classess like deadeye and mirage, meta would be better, as they could be punished for failing their burst.

This is a personal and playstyle thing (and also a little bit of a class thing), there is no correct or wrong answer because the simple answer is whatever works for you. You see, we cant tell you whether you are successfull or not.

I can tell you that when roaming on a full viper PvE built dps mirage (obviously 0 toughness) compared to a bruiser built tough as nails hybrid mirage (+800 toughness) ... its a toss. I can tell I win some I loose some by the two styles but its hard to say whats better since I cant rerun the exact same scenario. I run with the bruiser most of the time but of course there will always be situations where that toughness didnt matter at all but as long as I perform well - which I think I do since this build is particularly well suited to counter just that kind of dps ganker that many roamers run - I dont really care. Most will say "lol thats way too much". Yeah well I still kill nearly everything I meet, whats the benchmark for too much? And also I've been called a cheater so that just makes me enjoy it.

1100 is enough.

Dont stack on toughness lol..it's useless.unless you're fighting against a couple of pugs. If you are fighting someone with the same skill level or higher then you're pretty much dead.

I wasn't sure what you were running so I just threw out a bunch of options. If you have to give up Devastation you may be right about the trade offs. I just wanted to bring up some other alternatives since adding toughness didn't have much impact.

I also tend to use Soldiers or Captains for toughness when roaming since they have less impact on dps. Soldiers works well with Marauders and Captains pairs well with Valkyrie.

Toughness is useless

-% incoming damage is far more effective while allowing you to max damage output.

if solo roaming to a 5 man team even 10 man, no toughness is ok.

toughness is for tank classes or zerg battles of front liners =)

Contrary to the stat description, toughness really shines when you get hit by many small damage packets in a short amount of time, while vitality helps you survive those big 2.0 and up coefficient attacks.

However, during the HoT meta I found (through well over a 1000 hours roaming and yolo-ing) that running 2500 armor and a +70 vitality food on my thief I couldn't get oneshotted by any class (except this 1 trap thief who prebuffed like crazy running boosters).

Of course that's going to be different now, because of the PoF powercreep. An observation I got though, running Dragonhunter lately, is that all high burst classes seem to lose their edge when you hit 2500 armor. Might be be because they also don't run full zerk, or 2500 just gets to close to the theoretical max. Anyways once i hit that I can relax alot more fighting burst classes, but has to be 2500 and above because I don't get the same on a zerker warr with defence line (about 2400 armor with retaliation).

Anything more than that is a waste in my opinion, since this gives you plenty of time to react and counter. Could also be just me since I've mained thief from the zerker meta.

bring invuln to f@ck up their macro.

@"whoknocks.4935" said:

I don't wanna play a cheesy buils like deadeye mirage or soulbeast, they are too easy mode and low risk for me to have fun with.

If you are referring to "some" builds from these classes that are cheesier than others, please state this specifically instead of blanketing these classes as "no matter what you run, its cheese".

That is all

I am running a Power Soulbeast roamer build with Ascended Soldier's Armor, Marauder's Trinkets, and Berserker Weapons. I have around 2800 Toughness and 22k HP. I find that I can usually not get 1 shot with this build most of the time. I still die, don't get me wrong, but at least I can survive the initial onslaught and get a few hits in myself before I get totally wrecked.

@whoknocks.4935 said:Overall what is a good amount to have to avoid those cheesy deadeyes, soulbeasts and mirages to 100-0 you?I don't wanna play a cheesy buils like deadeye mirage or soulbeast, they are too easy mode and low risk for me to have fun with.

thief, mesmer and ranger have been the top 3 in solo roaming for probably most of gw2 history.playing a less optimal build for this regardless of armor will only help you against bad players of the more optimal builds.therefor one cannot give you a correct thoughness value that will protect you.but playing a suboptimal build you need to assume your opponent bad to win anyway so id say in that case you dont have to invest into armor.

@"Azynax.5176" said:Dont stack on toughness lol..it's useless.unless you're fighting against a couple of pugs. If you are fighting someone with the same skill level or higher then you're pretty much dead.

I disagree. Toughness can easily make you survive the initial assault of a good thief/mirage attacker and turn the tables because when you return the favor, they melt. If you think "stacking toughness" means full soldiers/minstrels/etc without the ability to bite back, then please dont. Thats not how roamers stack toughness.

only bring toughness if you can avoid the initial burst and your build has sustain. for rev I would rely on maybe a lil toughess, -dmg% mods, decent amount of vitality, and plain ol out playing.

If memory serves, holo-mesmer-spellbreaker-soulbeast-reaper-thief all play with mostly damage gear. They rely on invulns-mobility-dodges-broken rotations. By getting toughness, you sacrifice damage. It depends on your playstyle, on class knowledge, on timings.

As I play most thieves I tend to like toughness around 2300. As another pointed out it for all the little hits and help with those initial hits. On other classes I see no reason why you can not preserve toughness without affecting damage out and this remains true with the Condition specs. As example I have one warrior with uber toughness , it pushing 4000 in a Condi spec. This one by design is built to soak up damage with plenty of heals in between with shouts etc. This build both roams and runs with groups. This latter is a Condiion spec using burns from torch off hand for the most part and with might stacking does not see a big hit to damage out because of that high toughness. The idea behind this build is if you stay at melee with it it going to outlast you even as it applies ever more in the way of AOE burns.

The point is I really do not think there a "right number" for any stat. One has to factor in all the other variables such as what ones profession is, the basis of the build and how much of any given stat sacrificed or taken that one can get through other traits.

The damage formulas in this game are so awful that toughness is borderline pointless. Protection and other -% effects are far, far more effective than it is.

Thinking on your feet is key. Just like in PvP when someone +1's your point, you should immediately begin kiting, baiting and forcing ground. Never assume you can handle multiple opponents toe to toe until you've had time to gauge the situation.

To answer your question though, it's best to have enough armor and health to be able to trade a couple hits when necessary, but don't depend on it being your saving grace. How much armor and health you'll need will depend on what you're playing.

Personally, I prefer to go full offensive when I roam, though I don't exactly recommend it. I have a lot of difficulty recovering from mistakes or surprise attacks and outnumbered fights mostly amount to forcing ground so I can fight in a place I'm comfortable. Still, with high damage output I can turn fights in a flash if my opponents' aren't careful. I strongly prefer this method over a little extra durability even if it's less optimal. Maybe you find the same, in which case again, thinking on your feet is key. As a long time Necro who also roams as such, the environment is crucial to my success. Learn to utilize your surroundings and you'll have a much better time, I promise.

Toughness has been useless for a while now... Need to stack mobility, blocks, stealth and invulnerable skills.

Toughness has its place.

The popularity of D/P oneshot deadeye is raising. We will see more of this crap in the future. Last week I was "delighted" with one of these guys ganking me for a whole evening. I used the opportunity to experiment a bit with different armor combinations to see what it takes to survive the non-telegraphed instant mark+backstab combo.

Full berserk light armor 21k hp (soul reaping necro) he did oneshot me with 22k backstabs constantly. Somewhat of a sweetspot is the good old 2,6k armor rule for wvw. His backstab did hit with about 16k giving me a chance to cast some defense and fight back.

Side Note: That guy was oneshotting spellbreakers out of nowhere as the backstab bypassed the whole defense traitline. That's something you don't see very often.

So much about broken deadeye stuff.

Against a power shatter mesmer I would always go full marauder. His burst is predictable as the stealth uptime is lower and the telegraph better noticable.