Raids for newcomers in a nutshell

Sorry for the slopiness.

https://ibb.co/eByRXK

you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guild

I personally would like for this continue.Here's why:

Assuming that the raid community is shrinking and we know that this type of behavior helps in preventing the community to grow. The internal metrics of the game will eventually tell Anet that 10 man raid content is not a successful venture, thus what has happened to world dungeon content will eventually happen to raids.

Just as planned.

This is already happening of course, it's no coincidence that mythright gambit has taken this long to make, or it could just be because they wanted to make some new original content for the instance, who knows?

@Sephylon.4938 said:you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guildYea and newbie answer -but I dont want/need to train, I want to kill.Raider -but thats what everyone had to do when begining.Newbie -easy mode raids please.

The LI/KP gating wouldn't exist in its current form if the game itself wasn't so mind boggling easy, though. :shrug:

Edit: Then again, we had AP gating before this and LI/KPs are at least a step up from that, considering that there is at least some correlation between the two.

@Linken.6345 said:

@"Sephylon.4938" said:you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guildYea and newbie answer -but I dont want/need to train, I want to kill.Raider -but thats what everyone had to do when begining.Newbie -easy mode raids please.

The default behavior of the general gamer is to learn as you go, this is truth in literally any genre. I've played games all my life and it was generally shunned to get the nintendo power guide when you purchase the next Mario or Zelda game for example. You will see this behavior largely due to the fact that Anet had marketed to a general gamer or populace more so someone that had played previous MMOs before and also explains why trains are much more populated than an instance raid.

The clientele majority simply wants a plug and play approach to content, which is why overworld content is generally favored in any MMO, including WoW where the raid community is also a vast minority.

The moment guides, or going to an external website for a meta build, or doing a separate training run is thrown into the mix, it begins to interfere with the plug and play approach therefore, we can conclude that these are not viable solutions.

I should also mention that many online games have thrived with no raiding scene. The best example currently is Warframe where raids(they were called trials) were actually deleted from the game but that didn't stop the game from being one of the most played games in North America. It begs the question if raids are even worth the time for a PvE centric MMO when a game like Warframe is literal proof that raids aren't even needed to be an online PvE game titan.

I would avoid poking fun at the "newbie" myself because as far as I understand, the raiding community is on an uphill battle in regards to justifying if its worth catering to the group of clientele.

I always thought that Raids in Gw2 should be very similar to how Wow raiding works and very similar to W4. Holding to a structure. Start with an easy boss then go to a medium and then hard for the end. Generally the first few raid bosses in a Wow raid are easy. The 2nd Wing is the medium and the final wing is where shit gets tough.

They could start with two easy bosses, a medium then hard, kinda like wing 4 approach.

Mind you Wow raids tend to reuse or mix and match tactics from their other encounters, so as your going your like oh it’s a reskin of this boss with a slightly different look and environment.

Anyhow if generally most people could crush the first boss for every wing, have medium difficulty for the 2nd or 3rd boss and leave the final boss as the major difficulty, I think it would probably grow people’s confidence. Mix and matching the difficulties is a bit of pain in the ass.

@IllegalChocolate.6938 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@"Sephylon.4938" said:you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guildYea and newbie answer -but I dont want/need to train, I want to kill.Raider -but thats what everyone had to do when begining.Newbie -easy mode raids please.

Hall of Chains was the nail in the coffin for me about raiding, I have over 300+LI and Legendary Armor, I've been raiding in GW2 since February 2016 so between Spirit Vale and Salvation Pass, yet I couldn't get accepted in a group without the dumb requirements for Desmina and Dhuum, I can already tell it's gonna be the same for the new one next week.

When people say newcomers will have an easier time with raiding when a new raid comes out it's a huge lie, they will tempt you with a bunch of good stuff then act like hypocrites and refuse to take you with them in the shadows. This game would be far more healthy if they just sticked to fractals and made dungeons paths again with maybe one "big" raid per expansion with 5-6 encounters.

@"Sephylon.4938" said:you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guild

And then the requirements of the training guild basically read: "Know every aspect of the content as if you had played it before", and instead an Ouroboros, we have a triskelion.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@"Sephylon.4938" said:you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guild

How many training raids have you personally been part of?

How well were you prepared?

Honest question since none of the training raids I have ever been part of or lead myself have ever had this demand or result. Usually the most common demands are:

• be able to listen in on voice chat (no need to talk)
• listen to constructive criticism and try to improve
• have at least exotic gear which is appropriate for your build (with some less optimal variations on condi gear if viper is not available)
• 1-2 hours of time for that evening of commitment

This is for new players and in general wing 1 - 4 with VG being a good practice boss and Wing 4 B 1-3 nice free loot so people can feel theyamaged something.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@"Sephylon.4938" said:you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guild

• be able to listen in on voice chat (no need to talk)
• listen to constructive criticism and try to improve
• have at least exotic gear which is appropriate for your build (with some less optimal variations on condi gear if viper is not available)
• 1-2 hours of time for that evening of commitment

The criticism isn't on their intention, it's on how they are perceived. Training guilds hardly ever realize that when people read their recruitment requirements for too many people they sound like "This isn't really to learn the raid, you have to know it already", and give up.

@Amineo.8951 said:

@IllegalChocolate.6938 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@"Sephylon.4938" said:you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guildYea and newbie answer -but I dont want/need to train, I want to kill.Raider -but thats what everyone had to do when begining.Newbie -easy mode raids please.

It wasn't much different when they introduced Shattered Observatory CM. Everyone - understandably - wanted to minimize the amount of training groups they play in. Doing it once could be fun in its own right, but afterwards it's just annoying to fail over and over because some pug doesn't read chat or finds it difficult to follow advice.

And just like with it, and with W5, the solution is simple - join a training group. Create one if there aren't any on the LFG. There will be players wanting to make their first kills, get their kps and be accepted into the clear groups. I was late to the party on both 100CM and W5, particularly Dhuum. Didn't stop me and it didn't take me long to collect enough kps to guarantee me a place in pretty much any group on the LFG.

You're blaming the game, and the community, but really the problem is your own attitude. You want a shortcut. You want to join experienced groups without gaining that same experience yourself. How do you expect that to work? Why would other players just agree to carry you, or worse - fail because of you? They did their share of fails. It is only fair to expect you do the same.

Elitists always kill the game, nothing new. At times, some elitists will try to show you a nice guy face but we all know they are not nice.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Amineo.8951 said:

@IllegalChocolate.6938 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@"Sephylon.4938" said:you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guildYea and newbie answer -but I dont want/need to train, I want to kill.Raider -but thats what everyone had to do when begining.Newbie -easy mode raids please.

I would be interested to hear more about your experience and hear your advice. In the same situation with W5 and 100CM being late to Raids and only feeling confident about w1-4 and 99cm now, and finding it hard to find groups that train, and when there is training it is a few people who don't know how to play it and fails happen a lot and people get frustrated and angry

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@"Sephylon.4938" said:you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guild

• be able to listen in on voice chat (no need to talk)
• listen to constructive criticism and try to improve
• have at least exotic gear which is appropriate for your build (with some less optimal variations on condi gear if viper is not available)
• 1-2 hours of time for that evening of commitment

Again, that is a very general statement and one I can in no way agree to from my own personal experience as both participant in training raids for completely new players, participant in training raids to progress my own skill and raid progress and as training raid leader. Most training runs for new players are just that: training runs for new players.

Then again I do play on EU and there seem to be disparities between EU and US on some level as far as community interaction with one another goes.

I will agree to that there is multiple difficulties of training raids. A training raid for Wing 5 is way more advanced and will likely require some sort of practice before hand. Then again you don't start swimming at the deep end. That's why I mentioned Wing 1-4 and Wing 1 Vale Guardian and Wing 4 Bosses 1-3 respectively. Those are the fights people should be working on when starting out completely new.

So if your argument is:"Well no one is taking me along for Wing 6 trainings raids because I have no LI or killproof." Then I will agree, but also question your sanity and ego to believe you are such a natural talent that you can cut it. The exception being very talented spvp and wvw players who need only minor adjustment time. That is due to their extensive class, game, class synergy and mechanical understanding which honestly most regular open world players lack severely.

@Omnicron.2467 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Amineo.8951 said:

@IllegalChocolate.6938 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@"Sephylon.4938" said:you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guildYea and newbie answer -but I dont want/need to train, I want to kill.Raider -but thats what everyone had to do when begining.Newbie -easy mode raids please.

I'll give you my personal experience and approach, please note that I do tend to take long breaks from the game (such as 5 month earlier this year) and as such often lack kill proof or experience and have to play catch up. My current LI is 735 and on monday I'll have the last piece of the 3rd armor done for the title. I usually raid 2-3 times a week. 1 for my full clear and 2 runs as training runs for guildies and friends (different guilds at that too).

I took a lengthy break after weekly clearing wing 1 with my guild back during the launch of HoT. When I came back Wing 4 was about to launch (I believe some 2-4 weeks later). The way I got back into the game then was: with guild raid runs which back then were compromised of 1/3rd very experienced raiders with static groups and 2/3rds decent players with good mechanical understanding and ability but lack of raiding experience. This was no raid guild between but a pve guild which eventually had some people form a raid group.

I didn't clear CM99 or CM100 when they released (wasn't actively playing when CM99 was added and was not very fractal active when CM100 was added). In the first case, I ran with PUG groups which did not require kill proof and after a lot of wipes got my first clear (I believe 3-4 groups in). CM100 I got taken along by guild members who had religiously cleared the fractal with as much as spending 14 hours on release day to get it done. Still avoid doing CM100 with PUGs and only occasionally when guildies are doing it.

Wing 5 I spent almost 5 days per week the first 2 weeks to get the tanking down properly (and in the process help out dozens of friends and guild members get their SH kills). I killed SH probably 5-6 times per week back then.

After coming back from my 5 month GW2 break (and having no Dhuum KP but at least a good amount of B1-3 KP) it was again with training runs as well as guild training runs on Dhuum which got me my experience and first kills. I now can chrono tank/support (green), or spellbreaker (green) on Dhuum quite safely.

There is a reason why I keep telling people to join a guild. PUGing most of these things gets very frustrating and difficult (and yet people still manage even that) because so many unknown factors get added into the equation.

TL;DR: join a guild and work on raiding and fractals with other people and most of the issues go away (unless you are an absolutely asocial person).

@IllegalChocolate.6938 said:I personally would like for this continue.Here's why:

Assuming that the raid community is shrinking and we know that this type of behavior helps in preventing the community to grow. The internal metrics of the game will eventually tell Anet that 10 man raid content is not a successful venture, thus what has happened to world dungeon content will eventually happen to raids.

Just as planned.

This is already happening of course, it's no coincidence that mythright gambit has taken this long to make, or it could just be because they wanted to make some new original content for the instance, who knows?

Deepstone also took 8 months to come out. Does that mean that 5 man content isnt working as well?

If a content dies in gw2 its mainly because it doesnt get supported by anet not necessarily because its inherently bad.

@IllegalChocolate.6938 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@"Sephylon.4938" said:you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guildYea and newbie answer -but I dont want/need to train, I want to kill.Raider -but thats what everyone had to do when begining.Newbie -easy mode raids please.

Well said,

And I personally think Gw2 is better without raids, because to put it bluntly, balance went to hell. There was very little issue in regards to balance say in WvW prior to raids. You also never heard a peep about balance in over-world play. We had favoritism set-ups for dungeons but it wasn't to complete the content, it was to complete it quickly.

When raids came about, dps meters became much more rampant, and so did players squealing about "x" class doing more damage than theirs. Then we see the chronic nerfing filter it's way into WvW causing the complete destruction of some classes. For example, why was lava font nerfed 40%? Nobody ever made a mention of it being OP in WvW; the nerf came from a raiding standpoint, and all but made the skill tickle in WvW.

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@IllegalChocolate.6938 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@"Sephylon.4938" said:you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guildYea and newbie answer -but I dont want/need to train, I want to kill.Raider -but thats what everyone had to do when begining.Newbie -easy mode raids please.

Last I checked there were no benchmarks before Raids. So I can understand the points you made.

4 Warr 1 Mes dungeon metaIce Bow metaFGS into wall metaNo Ranger, Necro, Engi for anything meta

People in this thread should remove their rose-tinted-glasses. We had speed clearing and efficiency oriented play from the very beginning. People solo'd dungeons and sold the clears to the highest bidder. Guilds competed with each other to see who could clear a path the quickest. Proper "balance" did not exist.

Thanks to raids and tons of work put in by various people (ArcDps, BDGM, qT, SC, M&F, Metabattle, dT, Teapot, etc too many to count) the balance nowadays between the classes is much, much better than it was ever before. Do I need to remind anyone of the times when four out of nine classes were considered "trash" because of lack of factual data (DPS comparisons) and weak trait synergies/skills at the beginning of HoT and only Chrono, Herald, Berserker, Tempest and Druid were considered "good"?

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@IllegalChocolate.6938 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@"Sephylon.4938" said:you forgot the part where they point you to a training raid group/guildYea and newbie answer -but I dont want/need to train, I want to kill.Raider -but thats what everyone had to do when begining.Newbie -easy mode raids please.

I think your blaming the wrong demo here most balance is becouse of spvp not raids noone have complained that you clear to fast with some classes in raids.Some may have complained that they cant join pugs with their trailblaizer reapers for example but thats not the same thing =)

Nah, there are people even in this thread that were complaining about certain professions that are not capable in Raids anymore. Think it’s a few threads down.

@"Grogba.6204" said:4 Warr 1 Mes dungeon metaIce Bow metaFGS into wall metaNo Ranger, Necro, Engi for anything meta

People in this thread should remove their rose-tinted-glasses. We had speed clearing and efficiency oriented play from the very beginning. People solo'd dungeons and sold the clears to the highest bidder. Guilds competed with each other to see who could clear a path the quickest. Proper "balance" did not exist.

Thanks to raids and tons of work put in by various people (ArcDps, BDGM, qT, SC, M&F, Metabattle, dT, Teapot, etc too many to count) the balance nowadays between the classes is much, much better than it was ever before. Do I need to remind anyone of the times when four out of nine classes were considered "trash" because of lack of factual data (DPS comparisons) and weak trait synergies/skills at the beginning of HoT and only Chrono, Herald, Berserker, Tempest and Druid were considered "good"?

Ignorance is bliss my friend.

True for many aspects of life and in this case perfectly exemplified by the crowd who believe balance was better with less information.

Is the fractal dungeon section of the forum becoming like the pvp one ?

Everytime rant threads about problems that are simply not there. If you hope to get picked up in a raid clear group with no experience then you are naive.

You need experience? I can point you 1 or 2 training groups that require you NO EXPERIENCE AT ALL with whom i started. Stop spreading misinformation.Some of you guys are really too lazy. You can be lazy as much as you want if you are playing solo. If you play with others then you have to follow some rules. It's the basic of human interactions

@IllegalChocolate.6938 said:I personally would like for this continue.Here's why:

Assuming that the raid community is shrinking and we know that this type of behavior helps in preventing the community to grow. The internal metrics of the game will eventually tell Anet that 10 man raid content is not a successful venture, thus what has happened to world dungeon content will eventually happen to raids.

Just as planned.

This is already happening of course, it's no coincidence that mythright gambit has taken this long to make, or it could just be because they wanted to make some new original content for the instance, who knows?

I think you are spot on. Raids are already repeating dungeon scenario, which is indeed pathetic, but interesting to watch. together with overall community denial state.