They both have too much sustain, far too much sustain and "get out of jail" cards to be deemed at least reasonable for this level of gameplay, both these specs now transcend the true meaning of faceroll...they are beyond stupid, I understand that you want to keep the skill level low for the kind of target audience but there is also something called going too far and if this is still not considered out of whack well...when should we expect elite specs with access to magic versions of nuclear bombs or access to some kind of asura made laser satellite?

yeah next elite for ele will get 'kil all' one button

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

Engineer

• Overcharged Shot: The range of this skill has been increased from 600 to 1200. Fixed a bug that allowed this skill to hit enemies from farther than intended.
• Gyro Skills: These skills now display their explosion damage in the combat log.
• Thermal Vision: Reduced the condition damage increase of the effect granted by this trait from 10% to 5%.
• Prime Light Beam: The cooldown of this skill has been split between game modes. It has been increased from 60 seconds to 75 seconds in PvP only.
• Prismatic Singularity: The cooldown of this skill has been split between game modes. It has been increased from 30 seconds to 45 seconds in PvP only.
• Spectrum Shield: The cooldown reduction for being above the heat threshold has been split between game modes and reduced to 25% when in PvP only.
• Holo Leap: The damage of this skill has been reduced by 17% in PvP only.
• Elixir H: The casting time of this skill has been reduced by 0.25 seconds.
• Toss Elixir U: When used underwater, the radius of this skill has been increased from 240 to 360, and the tooltips have been clarified.
• Elixir Gun—Glob Shot: The velocity of this skill has been increased by 70%.
• Bomb Kit:
  • Smoke Bomb: This skill now counts as an explosion when used with related traits.
  • Glue Bomb: This skill now counts as an explosion when used with related traits.
  • Shredder Gyro: This skill now scales its damage with the engineer's attributes. The damage per strike has been reduced by 25%, and the number of strikes has increased from 6 to 12.
• Blast Gyro: This skill now scales its damage with the engineer's attributes.
• Orbital Command: The damage inflicted by this trait has been increased by 44%.

There was a lot of sustain reduction and cooldown increases for holosmith in the last patch. You're going to have to be more specific as to what you'd like to see reduced.

I'm a main engineer player, and I can tell you that a lot of my sustain does not come from holosmith directly. It comes from me combo'ing fields at opportune moments, something that separates the wheat from the chaff in engineer players.

What exactly gives you trouble when facing an engineer? As vagrant said, most of the engi sustain comes from blasting fields, which is also some pretty active gameplay on the engis part. The other Would be elixer S, which triggers when the 25% health threshold is reached. At that points its as easy as staying on top of the engi not wasting your cooldowns to one shot him once he is out.

It's hilarious that in Power metas, classes like Engie start appearing in complain topics.They just forget how Engies couldn't even step inside the game back when condi was king.

Mesmer has indeed, tons of active defenses and a lot of kitting potential with Sword Mirage Burst. But Mesmer sustain is somewhat bad, as they have some of the worse healing skills of the game. (HP recovery wise, ofc).

@SoulSin.5682 said:It's hilarious that in Power metas, classes like Engie start appearing in complain topics.They just forget how Engies couldn't even step inside the game back when condi was king.

Mesmer has indeed, tons of active defenses and a lot of kitting potential with Sword Mirage Burst. But Mesmer sustain is somewhat bad, as they have some of the worse healing skills of the game. (HP recovery wise, ofc).

or anyone else in melee range/action with power, but let's not tell fables now cause holo has been in the meta for almost a year now

i mean how far back we gotta go to see when engii wasnt played?

plenti of other classes got displaced with the new metas that come out.

somehow, someway we always see necro, guard, and mes though

Yet, these days people are mostly complaining about core engineer skills. Holo has been nerfed a lot over past few patches. I mostly see complaints about rifle, CC’s and elixir s.

@Tehologist.5841 said:Yet, these days people are mostly complaining about core engineer skills. Holo has been nerfed a lot over past few patches. I mostly see complaints about rifle, CC’s and elixir s.

not nerfed enough. the range on shockwave needs to be halved. cooldowns on leap need to be double. forge needs to have a interruptible cast.

all problems solved

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

I dislike the general powercreep but you can manage well a powerholo in teamfights if you don't ignore him.

A good player as holo can be hard to beat and it has a lot more to do with the player than the class. Button mashing on a holosmith will get you killed very fast.

@Lucius.2140 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

so basically outnumber and focus is the way to most easily overcome a holo?

who would have thought....

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Lucius.2140 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

Easy way to overcome holo is CC chaining. Base engineer doesn't have much stability, corona burst only provides 1 stability per hit, so you can easily change CC attacks to mess with engineers. Most engi stunbreaks are on long cooldowns.

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Lucius.2140 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

Basically, the animations are so flashy that it is impossible not to dodge holosmith's skills or mitigate damage in some way, even during teamfights.

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Lucius.2140 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

lol. ok holos out tonight. ez to dodge. nothing else going on in a team fight.

holo out of team fight alone, what then? ez?

ez for who and what? (video show ez)

Let's not pretend that the damage and cc from holo is negligible. Above 50% heat we are talking big numbers (5k holo 2 any one?) coupled with long duration cc's (holo 5 / prime light). Let's also not pretend like corona is hard to land.... My issue comes with passive S, which absolutely enables holos to completely reset a fight, since they do in fact have an additional active S that also provides stealth. I believe that passive invulns (including passive endure pain) promote lazy gameplay, if you were going to be 1 shot for your mis play, then you should be 1shot, since in fact the engineer has an active S that they should need to use to prevent their death. Training wheels off. Good holos know exactly how to abuse this invuln to completely reset a fight and return with full cooldowns ready for holo form, while the opponent has blown stun breaks multiple times already between rifle 4, holo 5 and prime light.

Holo is definitely extremely strong as a duelist right now. Overpowered? Probably not. But having multiple classes in S+ tier (mirage overlords have a challenger now) is not good for the health of the game when it comes in the form of long duration hard CC's and full health resets that can occur in stealth). To reiterate, my issue comes with passive S before any of the damage or CC. The condition damage during invuln change was an extremely "useful" buff for engineer, but especially holo as well.

Holo is not nearly as strong as it was before the last patch. I barely see them now. Its all Deadeyes, Mirages, Scourge/Reaper, guards and soulbeasts. I dont even see that many warriors either. (this is all compared to last season).

In my last 10 matches ive seen double necros on both teams and double soulbeasts on both teams in at least 4 of my matches. At BEST ive seen a holo on one of the teams. Not both and never seen a double holo team.

holo defenses mostly comes from engineer, not holo itself as mentioned before - such as blasting water fields to heal or light fields to cleanse. that required 2 skills at minimum to field+blast/leap and planning on to do it...

mesmers on the other hand can teleport out, portal, stealth, create an army of mesmers so you lose some precious time pressing tab to find the real one, an evade that doesnt interrupt your cast... and 2 (at minimum) really strong options as to burst shatter that can kill you in less than 2 seconds and if you dodge, they can reset the fight and try again later on and the condi build where it stacks tons of burning so you take huge damage, confusion so you take damage when you try to do anything and torment that punish you from moving :) ahhh and even if you cleanse all of these guess what? they can reapply it all quite fast :)

@"Vicariuz.1605" said:

Holo is definitely extremely strong as a duelist right now. Overpowered? Probably not. But having multiple classes in S+ tier (mirage overlords have a challenger now) is not good for the health of the game when it comes in the form of long duration hard CC's and full health resets that can occur in stealth). To reiterate, my issue comes with passive S before any of the damage or CC. The condition damage during invuln change was an extremely "useful" buff for engineer, but especially holo as well.

I like how engineer, by receiving some nerfs, has somehow become S+ tier now. Lul. SD holo has faced nerf after nerf, but it's S+ tier now. Mmk.

Also, for the love of god, everybody still complains about auto elixir S. It really is not a full reset unless you're completely negligent in your teamfights or duels. The only good thing it does for engineers is stall death momentarily.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Vicariuz.1605" said:

Holo is definitely extremely strong as a duelist right now. Overpowered? Probably not. But having multiple classes in S+ tier (mirage overlords have a challenger now) is not good for the health of the game when it comes in the form of long duration hard CC's and full health resets that can occur in stealth). To reiterate, my issue comes with passive S before any of the damage or CC. The condition damage during invuln change was an extremely "useful" buff for engineer, but especially holo as well.

Engineer was not the only one to receive changes, viewing it in a vacuum as you have is an issue you will have to come to terms with. As far as ranked q goes, holosmith is absolutely S tier, along with mirage. It is good on every point, AT every point of the match, it has fantastic mobility/stealth/damage/cc/dueling/roaming/safe res/safe stomp, there are exceedingly few negatives, all of which are alleviated via proper positioning. Go watch a thiskjen vod and tell me how often he dies coming out of passive S (stall death momentarily OMEGALUL), I'll wait.

@Vicariuz.1605 said:

Just because you got nerfed doesn't mean your position in the tier list can't move up... It doesn't matter how many times you get nerfed or buffed as long as your class performs equally well against other builds. The argument people are making is that relative to the other specs that fulfill the same role, Holo got off lightly the past few balance updates and has thus moved up the tier list.

Just treat photon forge as a necro shroud/reaper.Kite around, time your cc and engage once its down.Just like you treat a warrior with its immunity (endure pain it´s called, right?)

If you cant handle X class because you dont want to use Y mechanic then you wont ever improve.

Its not more complicated than dodging say, a mesmer combo once u spot them activating torch 4 and moves onto you.Or a thief Deaths Judgement etc etc.

Most classes can be handled with baseline mechanics like positioning, timing and use of the right abilities at the right time.Some classes just excell at certain areas a bit more than others.

Its kind of like complaining about scourge deathzones in WvW (common complaint). You dont fight in their AoE, if you do its because you are stubborn if you think you fairly should be able to dance around doing your own thing without facing consequenses.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

Engineer

• Overcharged Shot: The range of this skill has been increased from 600 to 1200. Fixed a bug that allowed this skill to hit enemies from farther than intended.
• Gyro Skills: These skills now display their explosion damage in the combat log.
• Thermal Vision: Reduced the condition damage increase of the effect granted by this trait from 10% to 5%.
• Prime Light Beam: The cooldown of this skill has been split between game modes. It has been increased from 60 seconds to 75 seconds in PvP only.
• Prismatic Singularity: The cooldown of this skill has been split between game modes. It has been increased from 30 seconds to 45 seconds in PvP only.
• Spectrum Shield: The cooldown reduction for being above the heat threshold has been split between game modes and reduced to 25% when in PvP only.
• Holo Leap: The damage of this skill has been reduced by 17% in PvP only.
• Elixir H: The casting time of this skill has been reduced by 0.25 seconds.
• Toss Elixir U: When used underwater, the radius of this skill has been increased from 240 to 360, and the tooltips have been clarified.
• Elixir Gun—Glob Shot: The velocity of this skill has been increased by 70%.
• Bomb Kit:
  • Smoke Bomb: This skill now counts as an explosion when used with related traits.
  • Glue Bomb: This skill now counts as an explosion when used with related traits.
  • Shredder Gyro: This skill now scales its damage with the engineer's attributes. The damage per strike has been reduced by 25%, and the number of strikes has increased from 6 to 12.
• Blast Gyro: This skill now scales its damage with the engineer's attributes.
• Orbital Command: The damage inflicted by this trait has been increased by 44%.

Well i ll say the changes to Elixir U and Toss Elixir U was little opengi didnt need that easy stab and quickness precious Elixir U was ok and the changes make the engi little unbalanced

@Noha.3749 said:Just treat photon forge as a necro shroud/reaper.Kite around, time your cc and engage once its down.Just like you treat a warrior with its immunity (endure pain it´s called, right?)

If you cant handle X class because you dont want to use Y mechanic then you wont ever improve.

Its not more complicated than dodging say, a mesmer combo once u spot them activating torch 4 and moves onto you.Or a thief Deaths Judgement etc etc.

Most classes can be handled with baseline mechanics like positioning, timing and use of the right abilities at the right time.Some classes just excell at certain areas a bit more than others.

Its kind of like complaining about scourge deathzones in WvW (common complaint). You dont fight in their AoE, if you do its because you are stubborn if you think you fairly should be able to dance around doing your own thing without facing consequenses.

While I don't think holo needs nerf, quoting it as reaper a terribly bad analogyHolo has a lot more mobility and long range CC compare to reaper, also a good holo is still one of the best side node contest as well as strong team fighter cleaveYeah people should improve rather than complaining about nerf, but holo still fills multiple roles with very strong presence/advantage over others that fill similar roles

@NICENIKESHOE.7128
About the comparison you are right, its more for completely fresh players to have an avrage idea about how to fight them.The hard thing with fighting engineers is probably that you need 1 dodge to not get hit by rifle 2 or 4 so you get setup for holocombo.And the other dodge is needed for Holo CC through 5 unless you got stability/block/range advantage..

I can understand the frustration of playing vs them if you havent played one, like you and i. Guess its kinda like that with every class, if you know their mecanics, CDs and strenghts/cons it will get easier to fight them.

I don’t know everytime I see a holosmith going Super Saiyan Blue with kamehamehas I’ve already lost 80% hp

One time I literally stopped playing and made the /sad emote. Dude left me alone, guess his « face was tired ».