DPS without buffs

I'd like to ask the help of all pro players that can perform the most amazing rotations.Make a list of DPS on the golem without using any buffs outside your personal buffs.I want to see how much damage this new Staff Weaver can pull out without Alacrity, Might and Quickness.

Perhaps if we got a list like this, and then compare it to the full buffed list, we can all see where the -real- problem with DPS is.Anyone willing to help?

It's rather obvious where the problem is, the support meta is op af.

@Feanor.2358 said:It's rather obvious where the problem is, the support meta is op af.

Exactly but if we had a list, for example similar to the DPS list on qT but with no-buffs/full-buffs listings we'd see it more clearly.A developer that balances the game need to balance each profession individually and not by how much damage they are doing when full buffed by others.For example, a PS Warrior versus a Tempest only with self buffs would have a big or small difference in DPS?

What real problems with dps? All the tests are done with normal raid/fractal buffs.Only self buffs applies only to solo dungeons / fractals and partly pvp.

Justifying low damage with self buff potential destroyed pve balance since forever.Also staff weaver has perma fury and some might stacks on his own. Add sigil of strength + runes of strength and he sits at close to 25 self might.Perma quickness wont go away. Especially with firebrand. Removing Alacrity hurts everyone except power thiefs.

Well, I'm not qT, my best on Weaver was 44k. The same rotation gave me 11,594 on the first 25% of the golem without any buffs and debuffs. So let's say qT get 16k and they do 48k on the standard realistic benchmark, meaning buffs and conditions increase your damage by roughly 200% in total.

@Feanor.2358 said:Well, I'm not qT, my best on Weaver was 44k. The same rotation gave me 11,594 on the first 25% of the golem without any buffs and debuffs. So let's say qT get 16k and they do 48k on the standard realistic benchmark, meaning buffs and conditions increase your damage by roughly 200% in total.

200% is about what I've noticed too.

@Nephalem.8921 said:What real problems with dps? All the tests are done with normal raid/fractal buffs.Only self buffs applies only to solo dungeons / fractals and partly pvp.

Justifying low damage with self buff potential destroyed pve balance since forever.Also staff weaver has perma fury and some might stacks on his own. Add sigil of strength + runes of strength and he sits at close to 25 self might.Perma quickness wont go away. Especially with firebrand. Removing Alacrity hurts everyone except power thiefs.

Knowing how much damage all builds do without buffs shows both the difference (the triple damage effect as noticed above) plus it shows how the damage of each build is balanced with respect to each other.

What is the point of that? All the "meta" builds are built around getting some support from others, Vulnerability on the boss from others, some types of condis on boss from others too.Elementalists can easily self sustain 25 Might with a simple swap of Runes/food, Warrior can easily hold 25 Vulnerability on his target by a single utility swap, Druid can get some Might and Fury among other stuff, and so on... But they don't need to in the common builds because they are not meant for solo play.

Doing solo tests for builds that were made for group play is just useless, I really don't understand what you expect to see or prove.The result will probably be: Condi PS on top (because of the ability to provide Might/Fury/some Quickness as well as Banners without a single change), followed by some of the stronger Power DPS classes (Ele/Guard) who are able to hold a few minimal self buffs, or maybe some of the Condi ones, followed by some more Condi classes, with Druid and Chrono on the bottom. What does it mean? Absolutely nothing IMO.

The point is suggesting it's not the dps builds that are overpowered, it's the support ones.

The support boost is so big it is pretty much mandatory in high-end content. This isn't necessarily bad, however the current support meta is also very stale. Nothing challenges the PS, nothing challenges the druid and nothing challenges the chrono. There's zero variance in 60% of the group composition, and that's very bad.

@Feanor.2358 said:The point is suggesting it's not the dps builds that are overpowered, it's the support ones.

The support boost is so big it is pretty much mandatory in high-end content. This isn't necessarily bad, however the current support meta is also very stale. Nothing challenges the PS, nothing challenges the druid and nothing challenges the chrono. There's zero variance in 60% of the group composition, and that's very bad.

What does that have to do with solo tests?Do you think that regular support Condi Druid or Chrono will get better results than DPS classes? Do you think that the PS being (possibly) on top makes it the best class in the game?

@Coconut.7082 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:The point is suggesting it's not the dps builds that are overpowered, it's the support ones.

The support boost is so big it is pretty much mandatory in high-end content. This isn't necessarily bad, however the current support meta is also very stale. Nothing challenges the PS, nothing challenges the druid and nothing challenges the chrono. There's zero variance in 60% of the group composition, and that's

very

bad.

The solo test results alongside the normal raid buff results show clearly how much damage is coming from the build and how much is coming from external factors. Ideally, outside the normal buffs and no buffs, adding how much damage each individual build brings to the game would also be great. We know that using Chrono + Druid + PS equals triple the damage. But how much damage do you gain from Chrono alone? Or Druid alone? Or PS alone? Then maybe in the future we can get builds than can challenge those individually and offer more build variety.

Other than that, when a developer balances the damage of a build, they do it based on how much damage the build does alone and not how much it does when fully buffed by others. Or at least that's how it should be. Seeing how the different builds compare on their own shows how the balance process works and why build X can't do as much damage as build Y.

The support boost is so big it is pretty much mandatory in high-end content. This isn't necessarily bad, however the current support meta is also very stale. Nothing challenges the PS, nothing challenges the druid and nothing challenges the chrono. There's zero variance in 60% of the group composition, and that's very bad.

We have 18 elite specializations. 3 of them take 6 slots in Raids while the other 15 elite specializations compete for the last 4 slots. This isn't healthy for sure

Just throwing this out there, but wouldn't it be possible that the new elites are doing so much damage that some of the support classes can be swapped out? Granted that would make for possibly a worse meta as now you have could have something like 4 Firebrand and a Druid

@savacli.8172 said:Just throwing this out there, but wouldn't it be possible that the new elites are doing so much damage that some of the support classes can be swapped out? Granted that would make for possibly a worse meta as now you have could have something like 4 Firebrand and a Druid

No. Regardless how much damage they do on their own, the support boost is too big. 2x3 = 6. 6 > 5. Simple as that.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@savacli.8172 said:Just throwing this out there, but wouldn't it be possible that the new elites are doing so much damage that some of the support classes can be swapped out? Granted that would make for possibly a worse meta as now you have could have something like 4 Firebrand and a Druid

(geez took me a while to find the "reply" button)

My idea being targetted towards the firebrand class that is able to provide group Quickness and Might while still dishing out tons of damage. They generate their own Fury on top of what the druid has. Druid would give them GoTL and spirit. You could take 1 warrior to bring both banners. Though at that point you're missing Empower allies on one sub and alacrity for both groups.

Thus, the only way you could get rid of the 6 slots for support classes would be if you somehow were able to take DPS classes that were able to provide one element of support for the rest of the group. In the current iteration I doubt that every elements of support buffs can be covered so my idea still looks to be just an idea.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Coconut.7082 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:The point is suggesting it's not the dps builds that are overpowered, it's the support ones.

The support boost is so big it is pretty much mandatory in high-end content. This isn't necessarily bad, however the current support meta is also very stale. Nothing challenges the PS, nothing challenges the druid and nothing challenges the chrono. There's zero variance in 60% of the group composition, and that's

very

bad.

Again, "those builds" are only built like that because they are based on having the current buffs. If the buffs did not exist, "those builds" would be very different.You want to test with no Chrono buffs? Start by calculating the amount of GoTL a Druid can produce without Quickness/Alacrity, then proceed to adjust all the current rotations to having no Quickness/Alacrity.No Warrior? How do you account for classes that can produce some self Might by default (e.g Tempest/DH), is the increase lower for them?Vulnerability? Do you account for that? If Tempest is responsible for 15/25 stacks, does that make him a Support class that gives 15% damage boost to the group?I can keep going with this...

You can't just replace one Support class that gives (hypothetically) 30k group DPS boost with another one that gives 30k boost too and hope for results, unless they give identical buffs.

@maddoctor.2738 said:Other than that, when a developer balances the damage of a build, they do it based on how much damage the build does alone and not how much it does when fully buffed by others. Or at least that's how it should be.

No? Why should it be like that?If a build is meant for group play, balance it around group play. If it's meant for solo play then balance it around solo.

@Feanor.2358 said:The point is suggesting it's not the dps builds that are overpowered, it's the support ones.

The support boost is so big it is pretty much mandatory in high-end content. This isn't necessarily bad, however the current support meta is also very stale. Nothing challenges the PS, nothing challenges the druid and nothing challenges the chrono. There's zero variance in 60% of the group composition, and that's very bad.

Having support be mandatory isn't a bad thing in itself, the problem is that no other classes can do what the current meta support classes do, as good. that's why its bad.

Comparing dps without buffs for builds designed for group content proves nothing and shows nothing.

@savacli.8172 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@savacli.8172 said:Just throwing this out there, but wouldn't it be possible that the new elites are doing so much damage that some of the support classes can be swapped out? Granted that would make for possibly a worse meta as now you have could have something like 4 Firebrand and a Druid

The problem is, in real fight the supports do more than just buff the dps classes. They also take care of other stuff like tanking the boss and healing. Basically as much as possible so that the dps classes do as little as possible beside dealing damage. If you skip the chrono and the druid, you're not only going to lack some boons, you'll also have dramatically lower dps uptime.

@savacli.8172 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@savacli.8172 said:Just throwing this out there, but wouldn't it be possible that the new elites are doing so much damage that some of the support classes can be swapped out? Granted that would make for possibly a worse meta as now you have could have something like 4 Firebrand and a Druid

Well you pretty much said it yourself... Alacrity and warrior banners/empower are important enough you're taking them anyways. I'm actually a little surprised every core class doesn't have some sort of specialized buff to encourage taking at least one of each.

@Drekor.5217 said:

@savacli.8172 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@savacli.8172 said:Just throwing this out there, but wouldn't it be possible that the new elites are doing so much damage that some of the support classes can be swapped out? Granted that would make for possibly a worse meta as now you have could have something like 4 Firebrand and a Druid

According to Anet, they wanted to stay away from having a "MEGA" comp. Instead we have a mirror comp that is dominated by 3 classes while the other 6 (and the 3 who don't want to play those specialized rolls) can get bent. So we have what Anet didn't want, just with 3 classes instead of all 9.

@Ertrak.9506 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:The point is suggesting it's not the dps builds that are overpowered, it's the support ones.

The support boost is so big it is pretty much mandatory in high-end content. This isn't necessarily bad, however the current support meta is also very stale. Nothing challenges the PS, nothing challenges the druid and nothing challenges the chrono. There's zero variance in 60% of the group composition, and that's

very

bad.

That's what I said.

@Ertrak.9506 said:Comparing dps without buffs for builds designed for group content proves nothing and shows nothing.

It does show the extent of the power wielded by the supports in the group. Which I believe is the original intent. Because people often are quick to scream "X dps OP" for 20% difference (speaking figuratively, not comparing particular builds here), and completely ignore the 200% difference coming from the support.

Why are all the forum warrior coming to argue when a simple question asking for numbers is asked? You got an answer? Good, give it. You don't, then why are you trolling?

A full list of variables showing the exact damage increases any of the three big supporting classes provide to any individual DPS build would be interesting. Also a list of variables to allow us to calculate the syngery effects that would happen when you combine certain builds.

That said, there is one thing to keep in mind here. There is more to raids than just DPS. Certain strategies revolve around having one of these powerful supports use invulnerability or out heal any burst damage the boss does for their respectable party on top of the powerful buffs they provide. These strategies would no longer work if we decided to replace them. Something new might pop up of course and might be even better but that's something to consider still when we are trying to justify the exclusion of druids or chronomancers with DPS mathematics and calculations.