Why People Avoid WvW

There's a thread on the Guild Wars 2 Reddit currently that asks why non-wvwers don't wvw. It's a gold mine of useful feedback not only for Arenanet, but also for everyone who makes up the wvw community.

One of the themes I keep seeing (and this will not surprise you) is that people have no idea what to do. They don't understand the scoring, don't understand how they may contribute to the scoring and don't know where to find the action.

Part of this problem can only be solved by Anet. If memory serves, sPvP gets a much more detailed introduction than WvW. I went into it knowing exactly what to do and what actions to take to create desirable results. It was just a matter of whether or not I could pull it off. On Anet's side, they have made some improvements like showing how many points some things generate if you're in the area. If someone plays for a long time, they can likely figure out the basics. Unfortunately, they don't tell people this upfront. On ABL/EBG, there's an NPC that gives you an overview of some game aspects. On DBL, at the time I last entered the Citadel, no such NPC existed. If anyone is on Red team currently, can you let me know if it was ever added? Update: Confirmed no Tutorial Instructor in RBL Citadel.

The ABL/EBG Tutorial says that towers allow you to control the roads and can be used as a base of operations. The former concept was stressed in DBL while the latter was stressed in ABL. The Instructor later says that Keeps require a significant and sustained effort to take. Thus suggests that Anet at least initially thought sieges wouldn't just be a single zerg push. However, while the tutorial has been updated to reflect the new point values of objectives, it makes no mention of increasing point values when they upgrade. In fact, it makes no mention of structure upgrades at all.

Perhaps to make things more interesting and more informative, allow for an optional, instanced tutorial where a player must:-Capture a camp.-Grab 10 supply from the camp.-Walk to a nearby tower and place the final 10 supply into a siege engine.-Finish off a low-health wall/gate.-Fight the tower lord with NPC allies.

As a continuation or a separate instance, a player can:-Escort the final Yak to a tower to upgrade it from tier 1 to tier 2. Emphasize the visual change in the walls.-Defend the tower from an enemy catapult either by running out and blowing it up or by using a counter treb.-Failing that, defend the tower lord by killing all enemies.-Spend 10 supply repairing the tower's wall.

Tutorials like that would ensure that people would at least have the basic idea of how to do things. In practice, they'd know what actions to take. It would just be a matter of if they could pull it off with other players taking opposite actions.

There also needs to be a more extensive 'You Won!' celebration. Even if it was as simple as a Special Skirmish chest for any Skirmish where you spent 10+ minutes at tier 1+ activity. The rewards would be based on where your server placed, perhaps, and a semi-big deal would be made of it when you click the chest (not immediately upon receipt as that could interrupt gameplay). This should help give people some idea of what they're fighting for. Also, as a replacement for the old PvE bonuses, perhaps give personal or guild PvE buffs based on server placement and player contribution?

On the other hand, WvW players usually just say to follow a tag. The newbs dutifully follow a tag (if one exists) and are chastised for their build/class choices and total lack of large combat instincts. If this doesn't cause them to quit, they go on to stomp/get stomped in zerg battles and eventually leave without much idea of what just happened. If they don't leave the game mode completely, they still have no clue what to do if there is no tag and lack the confidence to take any sort of initiative.

Following a tag is nice, but it's not a great first step. It would be better for everyone involved if players first had a reason to want to win, then got on tag. They would be more motivated to improve. Right now, the players who fight for the sake of fights tend to adjust well, join a fighting guild, then lament that WvW isn't just all zerg fights all the time. Players who aren't super stoked about large scale combat tend to abandon the game mode entirely.

@Sviel.7493 You deserve some outnumbered pips for this post. I love those ideas.

I will admit when I first started wvw it took me 50 ranks just to figure out how "supply" worked.

Good thread!

@Sviel.7493 said:On DBL, at the time I last entered the Citadel, no such NPC existed. If anyone is on Red team currently, can you let me know if it was ever added?

I'm here in the red citadel and I don't see an NPC like that here.

This game in general does a pretty bad job of explaining itself, so I do agree with OP's efforts.

Good post for educating the purpose of the game mode. But most "Vets" will tell you they pretty much want all that removed and just want open field fights ...

Edit: There used to be a sticky in the old forum about the mode that describes it pretty well. But it's rare you see questions here from new players.

I usually avoid WvW just because it takes forever to get any type or meaningful rewards out of it. Pips take forever to gain, reward tracks take disgustingly long. That and going afk when you are done playing just so you can make use and get points from the work you've done is just bad design. I would probably play more if progression was just as fast as it was in sPvP.

I generally don't like playing WvW thanks to how the participation system works. You shouldn't lose participation for anything but being afk in WvW and participation shouldn't be bound to success either.

I don't get why people care so much about the rewards. What do you even get out of it? A few armour and weapon skins? hundreds of blues and greens to be salvaged into sigils taking up space in your inventory? Literal pennies worth of imaginary currency? If it's 5, 10, 50% less efficient than any other part of the game, it's still the same garbage items filling up your bags.

If you just play for fun - especially on an outnumbered map - you'll get your pips for the week and have your legendary set within some number of months. It's easier than scheduling raids by far.

But hey, if it'll get people interested, by all means increase the rewards. As a primarily WvW player, it means nothing to me.

Lack of rewards was another theme in that reddit thread, but I think Anet has done a much better job of responding to that one. There's still room to improve, but the situation is far better than it was a few years ago.

I focused elsewhere because, even if the rewards are great, the underlying game can still be awful or confusing. If people feel they have to put up with that to access great rewards, it's not going to create a healthy situation.

But I'll take a stab at it....

What if participation changed to a single threshold above which you got Pips/Participation and below which you did not. Let's say the threshold is low enough that taking a camp (or just killing the camp guards, but not tower/keep guards) or killing a player (or doing significant damage) is enough to reach it. As long as you are over this threshold at some point during every 5 minutes, you get Pips/Participation for that tick. But if you stand still, it decays quickly. After 30s of standing still or 5 minutes of not doing anything, it depletes. Dealing damage to players or objectives, taking damage from other players, completing events, etc. all count as doing something.

This should allow people to get in and start earning rewards much faster while also removing the incentive/need to afk for a long while after you're done. Essentially, it just moves all those rewards you got while afk to the start of your session when you were originally ramping up.

If you need to take a break, you may miss rewards during the break, but you can very quickly get right back into the game. On the other hand, for people who now build up and then afk in glitch areas to farm pips, they would have to do something every 5 minutes now instead of every ~30 minutes.

There's also a need to just generally increase the rewards, but I'll leave that to someone who's more familiar with PvE/sPvP rewards.

I agree with implementing an instanced tutorial, near the end it could ask to clear out enemy invader NPCs (similar to the npc professions in pvp). This would be ideal for newbies to lead them in the right direction regarding starting out and actively participating. Then move onto combat - a lot goes in on a fight let them know to avoid large pulsing red circles (mimic enemy bomb). Yeah definitely a lot just tell you to go join a tag without actually informing you how to help the zerg as a whole or survive in a fight.

Rewards (shinies) are always something players want more of; sadly there are those that only want the shinies and care little for the genuine 'activity/fun' of the game mode itself. I lean more towards rewarding gaming experience but if both were fine tuned it's a welcome change. I still think unused skills such as treb water field shots could be more fun to use. Admittedly the physical rewards such as asc armor/trinket acquisition are far better than they were years ago (I don't understand why certain players think there is a of barrier for entry regarding stats considering I started off with core cleric stats on a fresh acc, played just fine, and slowly but surely acquired minstrel exotics via reward tracks). Many speak up about how 'boring' or time/effort doesn't feel up to par. Let's be real here, spending 2+ hours and taking a T3 objective gives you same amount if it were paper. I checked the wiki and didn't see anything regarding scaling when it comes to taking tiered objectives so correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe throw in a chance for ascended box regarding T3's or reward memory of battle currency? At least MoB can generate some income to cover the cost of cracking into that T3 if you dropped a handful of siege in the first place.

Anyway I'm probably rambling so I'll leave it at that.

There is roaming or there is zerging.If you cannot find a zerg you roam which means you have to figure out what wvw is since nobody is directing to you what it is.

WvW is a sandbox. The environment and objectives are static, its the players that can be manipulated. It can take 30min or more to get the map to move the way you want it. Players that enter WvW roaming without this understanding that they are really playing a game of chess end up confused and underwhelmed that there is not a tangible reward or trophy for controlling the map rather than merely killing random enemies and flipping objectives.

Its the difference between banging on pots & pans and playing the violin.

Gatekeeping is a big factor as to why there's rarely fresh blood in WvW. Everyone knows it but it doesn't change. Some people think WvW is their personal playground and that attitude does a lot more harm than tourists coming and going from the game now and then. A reputation like that spreads among the players and when you're seen as a "toxic community" it's very hard to change that perception.

Also I believe that WvW would benefit from the PvP Style gear system. It would do a lot to curb the broken nonsense. It exists in some weird space between actual PvP and PvE and that never worked for me and some others I know. Pick a side is my view on that.

@"coro.3176" said:I don't get why people care so much about the rewards. What do you even get out of it? A few armour and weapon skins? hundreds of blues and greens to be salvaged into sigils taking up space in your inventory? Literal pennies worth of imaginary currency? If it's 5, 10, 50% less efficient than any other part of the game, it's still the same garbage items filling up your bags.

If you just play for fun - especially on an outnumbered map - you'll get your pips for the week and have your legendary set within some number of months. It's easier than scheduling raids by far.

But hey, if it'll get people interested, by all means increase the rewards. As a primarily WvW player, it means nothing to me.

I think it is purely psychological that they're still accomplishing something regardless of what happens. To people on the fence with limited time, it can make sense, even if in reality it's not much of substance. It's the same reason why people ping [200 Heavy Loot Bags] even though it's not really worth very much. Sort of a "I played WvW and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" kind of thing.

It's the thought that counts.

The ONLY reason i avoid wvw maps is because i don't see any comm on it or a comm with locked entrencre. The only reason i want wvw is to do high scale battles between my allies and enemys and the better the commander the better the experience i get from it . But if i log in and see no commander on each map i instantly log off becuase i don't care to solo myself into worthless duels or other crap arround the map. And i do this in pve aswell if a map has a comm most likely i will play it if not i will just assume its a dead map with nothing to it. Because i don't care about single player experience in a MMO game, i want to do epic stuff with people arround me and a commander who instructs us on what to do to us sheeps since he made his homework around the map and all events, and last the loot i get from it.

I have come across few non wvw players that just hate dying.They rage quit if they die in dungeon/raid/fractal and same here in wvw.Also with gears, what they run in pve will not always work in wvw. It is something they gotta accept and adapt.Also when we have bunch of gankers that just beat the living crap out of them doesn't help either.

It would have been nice if WvW had a tutorial. So imagine if there was one in the very beginning! Now consider all the feature-creep additions that have changed WvW since then...after all Masteries weren't a thing until late. The most recent impacts would be gliding and territories. At the very least the OP's suggestions haven't changed too much with time, but they also don't address tactivators, masteries, claiming, and territories. Of course a tutorial may have forced devs to consider more carefully any changes that would have been implemented...

D:

loved your ideas! :)but... as always... devs will ignore this post since they are very professional only care about pve

@"Tails.9372" said:I generally don't like playing WvW thanks to how the participation system works. You shouldn't lose participation for anything but being afk in WvW and participation shouldn't be bound to success either.

I tend to agree with this one, however it can be easily abused... For example, if you have a scout in a Keep that's spending what most find as boring time refreshing siege now and then and shouting out if enemy comes then that person should be able to continue to get participation. The squads can give participation sharing to these people though.. because the problem comes when several people decide to "be scouts" and afk in the Keeps and/or Towers.

@"Loosmaster.8263" said:Good post for educating the purpose of the game mode. But most "Vets" will tell you they pretty much want all that removed and just want open field fights ...

Edit: There used to be a sticky in the old forum about the mode that describes it pretty well. But it's rare you see questions here from new players.

If WvW was an open field for just fights then you would see it die a boring death fairly quickly I believe. I've been in WvW for almost 6 yrs now. I like all parts of WvW actually. Sometimes I like to fight a lot, sometimes I like to havoc, sometimes I roam (not much anymore since mes/thief gank groups pop out of nowhere a LOT). If WvW was changed so it was all really just one big open field battle ground that would seriously end my WvW dedication. I might go in a couple times a week to find some fights then leave after an hour or so.

PvP is an alien and scary environment for PvE players. And the typical team chat in WvW doesn't help. The environment and the team chat is brutal. Getting wtfganked is demoralizing. It's hard to explain to pve players to ignore all of that.

WvW is about as easy going as PvP can get though. Not sure what ANET could do to make it better..

@Verthurnax.2784 said:The ONLY reason i avoid wvw maps is because i don't see any comm on it or a comm with locked entrencre. The only reason i want wvw is to do high scale battles between my allies and enemys and the better the commander the better the experience i get from it . But if i log in and see no commander on each map i instantly log off becuase i don't care to solo myself into worthless duels or other crap arround the map. And i do this in pve aswell if a map has a comm most likely i will play it if not i will just assume its a dead map with nothing to it. Because i don't care about single player experience in a MMO game, i want to do epic stuff with people arround me and a commander who instructs us on what to do to us sheeps since he made his homework around the map and all events, and last the loot i get from it.

So, you look on all 4 maps then?

Because if you are logging in during prime or semi prime hours, very few servers are that bleak.

And as far as a locked group: unless it's a specific guild raid, they only lock it from players that won't join voice coms, or refuse to use a class that helps.

@"Sviel.7493" said:There's a thread on the Guild Wars 2 Reddit currently that asks why non-wvwers don't wvw. It's a gold mine of useful feedback not only for Arenanet, but also for everyone who makes up the wvw community.

One of the themes I keep seeing (and this will not surprise you) is that people have no idea what to do. They don't understand the scoring, don't understand how they may contribute to the scoring and don't know where to find the action.

Part of this problem can only be solved by Anet. If memory serves, sPvP gets a much more detailed introduction than WvW. I went into it knowing exactly what to do and what actions to take to create desirable results. It was just a matter of whether or not I could pull it off. On Anet's side, they have made some improvements like showing how many points some things generate if you're in the area. If someone plays for a long time, they can likely figure out the basics. Unfortunately, they don't tell people this upfront. On ABL/EBG, there's an NPC that gives you an overview of some game aspects. On DBL, at the time I last entered the Citadel, no such NPC existed. If anyone is on Red team currently, can you let me know if it was ever added? Update: Confirmed no Tutorial Instructor in RBL Citadel.

The ABL/EBG Tutorial says that towers allow you to control the roads and can be used as a base of operations. The former concept was stressed in DBL while the latter was stressed in ABL. The Instructor later says that Keeps require a significant and sustained effort to take. Thus suggests that Anet at least initially thought sieges wouldn't just be a single zerg push. However, while the tutorial has been updated to reflect the new point values of objectives, it makes no mention of increasing point values when they upgrade. In fact, it makes no mention of structure upgrades at all.

Perhaps to make things more interesting and more informative, allow for an optional, instanced tutorial where a player must:-Capture a camp.-Grab 10 supply from the camp.-Walk to a nearby tower and place the final 10 supply into a siege engine.-Finish off a low-health wall/gate.-Fight the tower lord with NPC allies.

As a continuation or a separate instance, a player can:-Escort the final Yak to a tower to upgrade it from tier 1 to tier 2. Emphasize the visual change in the walls.-Defend the tower from an enemy catapult either by running out and blowing it up or by using a counter treb.-Failing that, defend the tower lord by killing all enemies.-Spend 10 supply repairing the tower's wall.

Tutorials like that would ensure that people would at least have the basic idea of how to do things. In practice, they'd know what actions to take. It would just be a matter of if they could pull it off with other players taking opposite actions.

There also needs to be a more extensive 'You Won!' celebration. Even if it was as simple as a Special Skirmish chest for any Skirmish where you spent 10+ minutes at tier 1+ activity. The rewards would be based on where your server placed, perhaps, and a semi-big deal would be made of it when you click the chest (not immediately upon receipt as that could interrupt gameplay). This should help give people some idea of what they're fighting for. Also, as a replacement for the old PvE bonuses, perhaps give personal or guild PvE buffs based on server placement and player contribution?

---

On the other hand, WvW players usually just say to follow a tag. The newbs dutifully follow a tag (if one exists) and are chastised for their build/class choices and total lack of large combat instincts. If this doesn't cause them to quit, they go on to stomp/get stomped in zerg battles and eventually leave without much idea of what just happened. If they don't leave the game mode completely, they still have no clue what to do if there is no tag and lack the confidence to take any sort of initiative.

Following a tag is nice, but it's not a great first step. It would be better for everyone involved if players first had a reason to want to win, then got on tag. They would be more motivated to improve. Right now, the players who fight for the sake of fights tend to adjust well, join a fighting guild, then lament that WvW isn't just all zerg fights all the time. Players who aren't super stoked about large scale combat tend to abandon the game mode entirely.

Few things...

My experience has been that a ton of people do not bother to look at outside resources to learn about the game. A simple check on the official wiki provides all the basic info, and answers the majority of questions a player might have. I’d much prefer the devs send a game mail that makes players aware of the wvw wiki section, as opposed to devoting resources creating any type of tutorial. The devs could also include a bump for Metabattle so players can look at some build options for various parts of the game.

Right, winning could be made more meaningful through rewards, so I think we can all agree that some type of reward improvements would be great. WvW is way more trial and error due to the fact that we are dealing with mostly players, not scripted AI that can be memorized in a couple tries. There are some large learning curves in wvw so I feel strong, and unique, reward hooks should be in place.

As is, there are more gamers who prefer to do pve stuff and avoid pvp stuff at all costs, so a pvp mode needs to have regular updates, better profession and mechanics “balance” to create enjoyable combat scenarios. Maybe some ways for pve players to contribute to wvw on their own terms too... like some pve/pvp maps added to each wvw side so players can play on their own terms and get comfortable and more experienced.

Trying to pull in new players is kind of moot at this point because wvw development is very very very far behind the pve side of the game. This mode, and professions, need a lot of love before the devs can try to convince players to participate in wvw. Tutorials and reward bumps wouldn’t be attractive enough for the longer run.

@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Sviel.7493" said:There's a

thread

He embedded the link to the thread in his post. I included it above.

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Sviel.7493" said:There's a

thread

Oh, thanks! I’m on mobile so it wasn’t easy to spot