improvements to hammer aa? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

improvements to hammer aa?

I like hammer's CC powers but there's almost never a reason to use it for long before switching to something else, unless you just like it as a concept. I think a simple improvement to the AA would help. perhaps a stun on second chain, or apply confusion, anything that makes some amount of sense really. perhaps just more damage in general. Even with the symbol at the end, I feel hammer just under performs if you want to stay on it. Also a couple of the CC abilities could use a tweak or two but that's another topic.

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Comments

  • Hoodie.1045Hoodie.1045 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The hammer already has 3 CC skills with Ring of Warding being one of the most powerful in the game. Adding in a stun on the auto attack would make it ridiculously strong. Maybe a reduced cast time on the third auto attack chain would be nice especially when the protection field only lasts for 2 seconds. Other than that, the hammer is fine.

    Karras The Engineer

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭

    yeah stun could be really bad with high quickness uptime. perhaps daze would be better, or like i said confusion. I want more than just a second or two more of symbol of protection though, something to really make hammer worth keeping in hand.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The point of hammer auto attack is mostly the symbol on the 3rd strike, when traited this make the hammer AA one of the best thing the guardian have. I agree with Hoodie that a slightly reduced cast time on the 3rd attack of the AA (to 1 second cast time) would be nice enough for the AA. I'd also suggest to drop Hammer#2 mighty blow cast time to 1/2 as well.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fipmip.7219 said:
    yeah stun could be really bad with high quickness uptime. perhaps daze would be better, or like i said confusion. I want more than just a second or two more of symbol of protection though, something to really make hammer worth keeping in hand.

    You know why there's not a single AA chain in the entire game that has a hard CC on it? Hard CC includes Stun, Daze, Fear, Taunt, Knockdown, Launch and Immobilize. (+the underwater ones)

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    The point of hammer auto attack is mostly the symbol on the 3rd strike, when traited this make the hammer AA one of the best thing the guardian have. I agree with Hoodie that a slightly reduced cast time on the 3rd attack of the AA (to 1 second cast time) would be nice enough for the AA. I'd also suggest to drop Hammer#2 mighty blow cast time to 1/2 as well.

    Despite the symbol traits like the vuln and 33% chance of burn and stuff, I still dont feel like a 2 second symbol is worth it. making a 4 second symbol is possible but since you're probably playing firebrand or dragonhunter, you have a choice of two core traitlines. one is zeal for symbolic power, symbolic exposure and symbolic avenger traits, plus stuff like fiery wrath/wrathful spirit and zealot's speed. so your last option could be honor for that extra two seconds and some support traits. thing is if you're going support you should be using something like mace/shield/staff, not using hammer autos, and not using zeal. so really you just want radiance for the massive crit chance props and radiant fire. Perhaps a good buff for hammer would be increase in base symbol time to 4 seconds and/or let symbols do crits.

    Thing is though, is that the symbol is a fairly useless tool in pvp, since enemies rarely stay in them, and on top of that the hammer symbol has a long, interruptible cast time. you might forget the hammer has two other attacks to get through before actually casting the symbol, which means you'll need to start the chain again if you get interrupted.

    With that said, I think hammer needs something other than symbol to round out its AA.

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2018

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:
    yeah stun could be really bad with high quickness uptime. perhaps daze would be better, or like i said confusion. I want more than just a second or two more of symbol of protection though, something to really make hammer worth keeping in hand.

    You know why there's not a single AA chain in the entire game that has a hard CC on it? Hard CC includes Stun, Daze, Fear, Taunt, Knockdown, Launch and Immobilize. (+the underwater ones)

    if you're going to include immobilize on that list then you should also include cripple, which is a also a non disabling CC effect. and guess what, grenade AA on engi can be traited for basically perma cripple. When I said daze, I was thinking of theif headshot, which can keep you trying to channel anything for a good while with initiative mechanics. and lets not forget pulmonary impact. I figured that since hammer needs to channel its attacks a small daze every few seconds (if you're letting hammer hit you) would equate to the same thing.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    The point of hammer auto attack is mostly the symbol on the 3rd strike, when traited this make the hammer AA one of the best thing the guardian have. I agree with Hoodie that a slightly reduced cast time on the 3rd attack of the AA (to 1 second cast time) would be nice enough for the AA. I'd also suggest to drop Hammer#2 mighty blow cast time to 1/2 as well.

    Despite the symbol traits like the vuln and 33% chance of burn and stuff, I still dont feel like a 2 second symbol is worth it. making a 4 second symbol is possible but since you're probably playing firebrand or dragonhunter, you have a choice of two core traitlines. one is zeal for symbolic power, symbolic exposure and symbolic avenger traits, plus stuff like fiery wrath/wrathful spirit and zealot's speed. so your last option could be honor for that extra two seconds and some support traits. thing is if you're going support you should be using something like mace/shield/staff, not using hammer autos, and not using zeal. so really you just want radiance for the massive crit chance props and radiant fire. Perhaps a good buff for hammer would be increase in base symbol time to 4 seconds and/or let symbols do crits.

    Thing is though, is that the symbol is a fairly useless tool in pvp, since enemies rarely stay in them, and on top of that the hammer symbol has a long, interruptible cast time. you might forget the hammer has two other attacks to get through before actually casting the symbol, which means you'll need to start the chain again if you get interrupted.

    With that said, I think hammer needs something other than symbol to round out its AA.

    Unfortunately GW2 isn't only PvP it's also WvW and PvE where a sustainable symbole might be interesting. And as baffling as it may be, some players might enjoy playing core guardian, If I recall correctly there used to be some core medhammer build doing great in PvP. Not everything need to fit DH and FB, maybe next e-spec will have a mindblowing synergy with symbols and make hammer the best pick possible.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:
    yeah stun could be really bad with high quickness uptime. perhaps daze would be better, or like i said confusion. I want more than just a second or two more of symbol of protection though, something to really make hammer worth keeping in hand.

    You know why there's not a single AA chain in the entire game that has a hard CC on it? Hard CC includes Stun, Daze, Fear, Taunt, Knockdown, Launch and Immobilize. (+the underwater ones)

    if you're going to include immobilize on that list then you should also include cripple, which is a also a non disabling CC effect. and guess what, grenade AA on engi can be traited for basically perma cripple. When I said daze, I was thinking of theif headshot, which can keep you trying to channel anything for a good while with initiative mechanics. and lets not forget pulmonary impact. I figured that since hammer needs to channel its attacks a small daze every few seconds (if you're letting hammer hit you) would equate to the same thing.

    A well placed Immobilize is of equal value than a Daze of the same duration so yes, I will include it. It might even be a bit better. You don't need to look so far for examples when there's a Crippling AA in the same class we're talking about. Dragonhunter Longbow.
    As you pointed out earlier, Quickness is a thing. That would equate to a Daze every 1.9 or so seconds.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The AA third chain need to be reduced to 0.75 sec. Glacia heart ICD should be reduced to 5 secs (PvE only). Honestly, in PvE the protection has almost no value and the CC, while nice, no one uses a weapon because it has CC, but for damage. The utility value of hammer is a way over precevied. That is why no one uses it in PvE whatsoever.

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    The point of hammer auto attack is mostly the symbol on the 3rd strike, when traited this make the hammer AA one of the best thing the guardian have. I agree with Hoodie that a slightly reduced cast time on the 3rd attack of the AA (to 1 second cast time) would be nice enough for the AA. I'd also suggest to drop Hammer#2 mighty blow cast time to 1/2 as well.

    Despite the symbol traits like the vuln and 33% chance of burn and stuff, I still dont feel like a 2 second symbol is worth it. making a 4 second symbol is possible but since you're probably playing firebrand or dragonhunter, you have a choice of two core traitlines. one is zeal for symbolic power, symbolic exposure and symbolic avenger traits, plus stuff like fiery wrath/wrathful spirit and zealot's speed. so your last option could be honor for that extra two seconds and some support traits. thing is if you're going support you should be using something like mace/shield/staff, not using hammer autos, and not using zeal. so really you just want radiance for the massive crit chance props and radiant fire. Perhaps a good buff for hammer would be increase in base symbol time to 4 seconds and/or let symbols do crits.

    Thing is though, is that the symbol is a fairly useless tool in pvp, since enemies rarely stay in them, and on top of that the hammer symbol has a long, interruptible cast time. you might forget the hammer has two other attacks to get through before actually casting the symbol, which means you'll need to start the chain again if you get interrupted.

    With that said, I think hammer needs something other than symbol to round out its AA.

    Unfortunately GW2 isn't only PvP it's also WvW and PvE where a sustainable symbole might be interesting. And as baffling as it may be, some players might enjoy playing core guardian, If I recall correctly there used to be some core medhammer build doing great in PvP. Not everything need to fit DH and FB, maybe next e-spec will have a mindblowing synergy with symbols and make hammer the best pick possible.

    might be interesting? might enjoy playing core hammer guardian? used to be a build? perhaps new espec is good for hammer?

    or we can just buff AA a bit like I suggested. Like I said support hammer exists but what are you using the AA for? you're supporting with the symbol? for goodness sake.

    I'ver tried to play hammer in pvp, wvw, and am currently doing story mode with it on core guard. And the whole time, despite how cool i look, there's a constant voice at the back of my head saying, "why is this weapon still in my hands? i'm not doing nearly the damage I could be. I'm not doing nearly the healing I could be. I really ought to just be switching to this weapon when I need it then switching out."

    Keep that nagging going for a few hours and it's small wonder hammer keeps getting a thread here on the forums. it doesn't feel quite good enough.

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hoodie.1045 said:
    The hammer already has 3 CC skills with Ring of Warding being one of the most powerful in the game. Adding in a stun on the auto attack would make it ridiculously strong. Maybe a reduced cast time on the third auto attack chain would be nice especially when the protection field only lasts for 2 seconds. Other than that, the hammer is fine.

    Agree with this. I've also heard it proposed that all three attacks of the chain could be shortened considerably and just remove 1 tick off the symbol at the end. This would result in about equal protection uptime if untraited and overall dps increase.

  • Indure.5410Indure.5410 Member ✭✭
    edited September 21, 2018

    I've thought way too much about hammer and how it should be designed. I personally think it should be retooled quite a bit. My suggestions would be:

    1. Rebuild AA: Make all attacks in the chain .5s cast times similar to the Greatsword. Symbol of Protection is moved to the initial attack and last for 3s. An internal cooldown is placed on the symbol so it can only trigger every 5s and only from the first AA in the chain. The final AA in the chain is given a small damage increase and possibly small boon (might/regen/etc) to encourage completion of the chain.

    These changes would do a number of different things for the hammer. It allows the guardian to get a symbol down early in a fight which will help tremendously in PvP where it is incredibly hard to get 3 AA's completed. It negates the mandatory AA spam in PVE allowing for the use of MB and potentially other skills without a DPS loss. It still allows permanent protection and symbol up-time with Writ of Persistence. Overall it just gives a better and more reliable AA chain without breaking the balance that it already had.

    2. Mighty Blow: no changes.

    3. Zealot's Embrace: I just want more reliability out of this CC, as of now it is too slow to cast, has travel time to target, and is poorly designed to make use of its ability to hit 5 targets. For simplicity purposes either model a new Zealot's Embrace after the sceptor's Chains of Light (reliable single target immobilize) or the warrior's Hammer Shock (reliable AOE cripple).

    I would also be in favor of scrapping ZE altogether and making it a damage tool. Perhaps something like the DH's Spear of Justice, linking you with a single target and giving you bonuses against them.

    4. Banish: Make Banish a gap-closer like the GS: Leap of Faith. The 1s cast time is needed due to the strong CC at the end, but it could incorporate a 600-900 charge to close the gap while the 1s is animating. A knockdown would be more beneficial than a launch, but either CC is fine. The cooldown would need to be increased to 30-40s to balance the gain.

    This would be a straight gain for PvP, but would give the Guardian some helpful repositioning and re-targeting in PVE as well.

    5. Ring of Warding: Just change it so we can move while casting, even if it is at a slower speed.

    6. Glacial Heart: With the changes above, the 20% hammer cooldowns becomes more desirable already, but mainly for PvP. I don't think the the chill is needed and I would much rather see the remaining part of the trait benefit PVE. Potential ideas for changing:

    • Persistent Heart: Combine it with Writ of Persistence (-the healing in symbols) and either keep it where it is in Virtues or make it a grandmaster in Virtues. I doubt this change would ever happen though.
    • Fiery Heart: Symbol of Protection is converted into a fire field. Pulses of symbol have a 33% to apply burning (stacks with Symbolic Power).
    • Heart of Wisdom: Gain an effect (similar to Sigil of Bloodlust), every landed AA (all weapons) increases stack, at 15-25 stacks summons Hammer of Wisdom to attack current target (Sword of Justice would be better and easier to balance, but would make zero sense as a hammer trait).
  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2018

    @Indure.5410 said:
    I've thought way too much about hammer and how it should be designed. I personally think it should be retooled quite a bit. My suggestions would be:

    1. Rebuild AA: Make all attacks in the chain .5s cast times similar to the Greatsword. Symbol of Protection is moved to the initial attack and last for 3s. An internal cooldown is placed on the symbol so it can only trigger every 5s and only from the first AA in the chain. The final AA in the chain is given a small damage increase and possibly small boon (might/regen/etc) to encourage completion of the chain.

    These changes would do a number of different things for the hammer. It allows the guardian to get a symbol down early in a fight which will help tremendously in PvP where it is incredibly hard to get 3 AA's completed. It negates the mandatory AA spam in PVE allowing for the use of MB and potentially other skills without a DPS loss. It still allows permanent protection and symbol up-time with Writ of Persistence. Overall it just gives a better and more reliable AA chain without breaking the balance that it already had.

    2. Mighty Blow: no changes.

    3. Zealot's Embrace: I just want more reliability out of this CC, as of now it is too slow to cast, has travel time to target, and is poorly designed to make use of its ability to hit 5 targets. For simplicity purposes either model a new Zealot's Embrace after the sceptor's Chains of Light (reliable single target immobilize) or the warrior's Hammer Shock (reliable AOE cripple).

    I would also be in favor of scrapping ZE altogether and making it a damage tool. Perhaps something like the DH's Spear of Justice, linking you with a single target and giving you bonuses against them.

    4. Banish: Make Banish a gap-closer like the GS: Leap of Faith. The 1s cast time is needed due to the strong CC at the end, but it could incorporate a 600-900 charge to close the gap while the 1s is animating. A knockdown would be more beneficial than a launch, but either CC is fine. The cooldown would need to be increased to 30-40s to balance the gain.

    This would be a straight gain for PvP, but would give the Guardian some helpful repositioning and re-targeting in PVE as well.

    5. Ring of Warding: Just change it so we can move while casting, even if it is at a slower speed.

    6. Glacial Heart: With the changes above, the 20% hammer cooldowns becomes more desirable already, but mainly for PvP. I don't think the the chill is needed and I would much rather see the remaining part of the trait benefit PVE. Potential ideas for changing:

    • Persistent Heart: Combine it with Writ of Persistence (-the healing in symbols) and either keep it where it is in Virtues or make it a grandmaster in Virtues. I doubt this change would ever happen though.
    • Fiery Heart: Symbol of Protection is converted into a fire field. Pulses of symbol have a 33% to apply burning (stacks with Symbolic Power).
    • Heart of Wisdom: Gain an effect (similar to Sigil of Bloodlust), every landed AA (all weapons) increases stack, at 15-25 stacks summons Hammer of Wisdom to attack current target (Sword of Justice would be better and easier to balance, but would make zero sense as a hammer trait).

    What would these hammer changes achieve? Keep in mind that changes to weapons usually try to keep the weapon in line with its thematic concept. Also, Anet very rarely tends to carry out reworks. With these things in mind, can you think of any simple changes/numerical buffs that would achieve the same things for hammer that you're trying to propose now?

    In regards to what you suggested, I'll offer some of my own suggestions:

    • Hammer 1: The symbol being put on the first auto attack has potential for abuse assuming you're not attacking a target. I think it would be better to just give a flat buff to this skill and decrease the cast times for the first two strikes in the chain followed by a small damage buff for the third auto.
    • Hammer 2: Yeah, MB is in a pretty good spot right now, however one big issue is that it's a mobility loss compared to just running in a straight line. While hammer does not need to be a mobile weapon, it shouldn't detract from mobility which it already does with Ring of Warding. I say increase MB's range to 450 but keep the same cast time/aftercast.
    • Hammer 3: I think just decreasing cast time would accomplish your goal. 0.5s cast time is fair considering this skill is a dps loss, generally only hits 1-3 targets and the immobilize isn't really that generous.
    • Hammer 4: Your suggestion completely changes the functionality. I like it the way it is now, but it could definitely use a faster cast time (0.75s) and perhaps bump the skill up to 3 targets instead of 1.
    • Hammer 5: Agree with your suggestion. There need be no trade off though. Just give us the flat buff of making this a mobile skill, it wouldn't upset balance in any noticeable way for any game mode.
    • Glacial Heart: People often complain about core guard's burst and I think a change to Glacial Heart that Vallun suggested is appropriate: Increase chill duration, remove the RNG (make it 100% chance on crit) decrease damage and lower the icd down to 5s. This would make the focus of the trait more on chilling opponents and helping us stay on them rather than piling more damage on to a burst.
  • Cifrer.6013Cifrer.6013 Member ✭✭✭

    The only problem with Hammer is it's too slow.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2018

    @otto.5684 said:
    The AA third chain need to be reduced to 0.75 sec. Glacia heart ICD should be reduced to 5 secs (PvE only). Honestly, in PvE the protection has almost no value and the CC, while nice, no one uses a weapon because it has CC, but for damage. The utility value of hammer is a way over precevied. That is why no one uses it in PvE whatsoever.

    What ? Protection, Vigor and -%damage in group is the main reason people can run glass builds all the time in PvE. And no one uses it in PvE because of the annoying, spamming light field that makes all field stacking useless.

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  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    The AA third chain need to be reduced to 0.75 sec. Glacia heart ICD should be reduced to 5 secs (PvE only). Honestly, in PvE the protection has almost no value and the CC, while nice, no one uses a weapon because it has CC, but for damage. The utility value of hammer is a way over precevied. That is why no one uses it in PvE whatsoever.

    What ? Protection, Vigor and -%damage in group is the main reason people can run glass builds all the time in PvE. And no one uses it in PvE because of the annoying, spamming light field that makes all field stacking useless.

    Guardian is not going to use hammer to provide protection to group. There are other classes that do this much better. Plus you only add to the point with light fields.

    The point is the utility of hammer is not that useful for it to do the abysmal damage it currently does. No one uses it in PvE for this specific reason.

  • Indure.5410Indure.5410 Member ✭✭
    edited September 24, 2018

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:
    What would these hammer changes achieve? Keep in mind that changes to weapons usually try to keep the weapon in line with its thematic concept. Also, Anet very rarely tends to carry out reworks. With these things in mind, can you think of any simple changes/numerical buffs that would achieve the same things for hammer that you're trying to propose now?

    My propose changes would be two-fold. In terms of PVP I think the hammer is deficient. I think it has reasonable burst from MB, but even though 60% of the weapon is based around CC, it does a terrible job of locking down opponents and staying in melee range. Typically speaking the hammer is heavily/overly reliant on other weapons and utilities in order for it to have any viability, leaving the Guardian defenseless and without escapes when its initial attacks fail. Also its only bonus to survivability comes from its symbol which is impossible to get use out of in PVP. My propose changes would give it an on-demand symbol and protection for improved survival, quicker AA and symbols uptime to improve sustained damage, A gap closer so it isn't entirely reliant on Judges Intervention/Symbol of Blades, and potentially some improvement to ZE to give it more reliable CC to stay on target.

    The other changes to the weapon are based on PVE, which I believe the hammer isn't just deficient in, but is so bad it makes the weapon unfun and impossible to balance. Since 60% of the weapon is based around CC (which only has minor benefits in PVE) all damage from the weapon comes from AA+symbol and MB. But due to the fact that the majority of damage comes from the symbol, it is actually a DPS loss to use MB. This leaves Guardians AA spamming in PVE content. This is unfun and bad game design. Worse the symbol+AA is so good when fully traited you can't even boost the other 4 skills in any way that isn't OP to give them presence in a rotation. You would practically have to double the damage of MB to make it not a DPS loss. By putting the symbol on the first hit and adding an internal cooldown you break up the need for AA spamming. Now MB and any other skills can be used whenever, because it doesn't have any effect on symbol uptime. Slower symbol generation also fixes the problem of Light field spamming. I think Zealots Embrace could also be redesign as a PVE damage tool, especially if Glacial Heart is modified like Vallun suggested. Guardians would get a reliable CC and wouldn't need ZE to stay on target, and since Glacial Heart provides nothing for PVE it would be needed.

    I don't think minor number changes can fix the hammer, especially in PVE due to how AA and symbols work together You just can't balance that without making some major changes.

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:

    • Hammer 1: The symbol being put on the first auto attack has potential for abuse assuming you're not attacking a target. I think it would be better to just give a flat buff to this skill and decrease the cast times for the first two strikes in the chain followed by a small damage buff for the third auto.

    Does it have potential for abuse and is it OP?

    Symbol of Wrath: 20s cooldown/~2880 DPS (5 ticks)/ Retaliation
    Symbol of Swiftness: 15s cooldown/~2145 DPS (5 ticks)/ Swiftness
    Symbol of Faith: 8s cooldown/~1955 DPS (5 ticks)/ Regen
    Symbol of Punishment: 6s cooldown/~391 DPS (some amount of ticks)/ Might
    Symbol of Blades: 10s cooldown/?? DPS (6 ticks)/ Fury
    Symbol of Energy: 15s cooldown/ ?? DPS/ Vigor
    Symbol of Vengeance: 8s cooldown/~2300 (5 ticks)/ conditions
    Symbol of Protection (with propose changes): 5s cooldown/~1000 DPS (3 ticks)/ Protection

    So assuming a version of my original idea of a 2s symbol on the first AA with a 5s internal cooldown, would it be OP compared to other symbols? I don't think so. 5s is quick, but close to Punishment, Faith, Vengeance and Blades in your ability to use it. Keep in mind that the duration of the symbol would only be 2s compared to the 4s duration of every other symbol. Also the damage would be potentially much lower than all the other symbols to balance out the gain in damage from a faster AA chain.

    On a side note WTH is with Symbol of Energy, why is its cooldown so long? 15s for moderate damage and Vigor is oldschool symbol design.

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:

    • Hammer 2: Yeah, MB is in a pretty good spot right now, however one big issue is that it's a mobility loss compared to just running in a straight line. While hammer does not need to be a mobile weapon, it shouldn't detract from mobility which it already does with Ring of Warding. I say increase MB's range to 450 but keep the same cast time/aftercast.

    This sounds like a great suggestion.

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:

    • Hammer 3: I think just decreasing cast time would accomplish your goal. 0.5s cast time is fair considering this skill is a dps loss, generally only hits 1-3 targets and the immobilize isn't really that generous.

    The .5s would help, but I still take issue with the skill's design in general because it is restrictively balance around a lot of parameters that don't really effect its usage. For example its ability to hit 5 targets standing in a line isn't helpful in any game-modes. A 5-target immobilize is worthless in PVE, very weak in sPVP where groups are usually 3 people max and usually spread out, and okay in WvW zergs, but in all honesty most organized zergs are coated in stability so ZE doesn't do much. Also the 1200 distance ... why? You can't hit 90% of people that far away unless the are running in a straight line non-stop and even if you get them you can't travel 1200 in the 2s the immobilize last. That's why I'm more in favor around a single target immbolized or AOE cripple, because they can be better balanced at fulfilling their job.

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:

    • Hammer 4: Your suggestion completely changes the functionality. I like it the way it is now, but it could definitely use a faster cast time (0.75s) and perhaps bump the skill up to 3 targets instead of 1.

    True, but it doesn't hurt any of the original functionality. You still have a launch which is 90% use to knock people away from rezzes, but now you also have a gap closer. Some sort of gap closer is critical in my opinion because it frees up the hammers reliance on utilities and other weapons to get close to people.

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:

    • Glacial Heart: People often complain about core guard's burst and I think a change to Glacial Heart that Vallun suggested is appropriate: Increase chill duration, remove the RNG (make it 100% chance on crit) decrease damage and lower the icd down to 5s. This would make the focus of the trait more on chilling opponents and helping us stay on them rather than piling more damage on to a burst.

    Vallun's changes would completely fix the problems with hammer in PVP, but my problem with GH is that it only benefits PVP. 20% cooldown reduction only helps the CC skills since MB already has a very fast cooldown, and chill doesn't have much PVE potential. My opinion is that if the hammer is ever going to have some PVE potential it needs to pick up damage variety somewhere. It can either gain that variety in skill changes like a redesign of Zealot's Embrace, or it needs to pick it up in Glacial Heart.

  • Iozeph.5617Iozeph.5617 Member ✭✭✭

    Biggest and best thing you could do for Hammer AA is make it quicker iin execution on all steps. It's just too slow regardless of game mode. Beyond that, what needs to be added to the third part of the chain is an inward pull toward the center of the impact as Symbol of protection activates -similar to the Mesmer's 'Into The Void' or Holo's Prismatic Singularity so that from there the Guardian is free to follow up with any of the two through five skills which are solid right now.

    On any other profession I'd say yes these changes have the potential to be overdone, given guardian's extremely lacking health pool in all but the tankiest setups(going full Berserker's is near eleven or less thousand health? Marauder's with similar jewelry/acc not much better)- which won't be doing much damage at all, it's an invitation to be one hit by every other other prof out there. There should be a better payoff for Guardians dumb brave enough to wade into the middle of things with a hammer these days beyond a symbol anybody who isn't crippled or blind will easily walk out of.

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Indure.5410 said:

    Does it have potential for abuse and is it OP?

    Symbol of Wrath: 20s cooldown/~2880 DPS (5 ticks)/ Retaliation
    Symbol of Swiftness: 15s cooldown/~2145 DPS (5 ticks)/ Swiftness
    Symbol of Faith: 8s cooldown/~1955 DPS (5 ticks)/ Regen
    Symbol of Punishment: 6s cooldown/~391 DPS (some amount of ticks)/ Might
    Symbol of Blades: 10s cooldown/?? DPS (6 ticks)/ Fury
    Symbol of Energy: 15s cooldown/ ?? DPS/ Vigor
    Symbol of Vengeance: 8s cooldown/~2300 (5 ticks)/ conditions
    Symbol of Protection (with propose changes): 5s cooldown/~1000 DPS (3 ticks)/ Protection

    So assuming a version of my original idea of a 2s symbol on the first AA with a 5s internal cooldown, would it be OP compared to other symbols? I don't think so. 5s is quick, but close to Punishment, Faith, Vengeance and Blades in your ability to use it. Keep in mind that the duration of the symbol would only be 2s compared to the 4s duration of every other symbol. Also the damage would be potentially much lower than all the other symbols to balance out the gain in damage from a faster AA chain.

    On a side note WTH is with Symbol of Energy, why is its cooldown so long? 15s for moderate damage and Vigor is oldschool symbol design.

    What I meant is that a guardian not currently striking anything with their hammer could spam hammer 1 to give themself perma protection. Since the symbol is attached to the first attack, the second two attacks won't activate meaning you could spam the symbol on nothing just to give yourself protection. It's (arguably) on the overpowered side if you ask me.

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:

    • Hammer 3: I think just decreasing cast time would accomplish your goal. 0.5s cast time is fair considering this skill is a dps loss, generally only hits 1-3 targets and the immobilize isn't really that generous.

    The .5s would help, but I still take issue with the skill's design in general because it is restrictively balance around a lot of parameters that don't really effect its usage. For example its ability to hit 5 targets standing in a line isn't helpful in any game-modes. A 5-target immobilize is worthless in PVE, very weak in sPVP where groups are usually 3 people max and usually spread out, and okay in WvW zergs, but in all honesty most organized zergs are coated in stability so ZE doesn't do much. Also the 1200 distance ... why? You can't hit 90% of people that far away unless the are running in a straight line non-stop and even if you get them you can't travel 1200 in the 2s the immobilize last. That's why I'm more in favor around a single target immbolized or AOE cripple, because they can be better balanced at fulfilling their job.

    I don't think a single-target immob is very much in line with what they want with hammer. Honestly though from a pvp standpoint if they changed ZE to a reliable, single target immob I'd love it. I think based on its original concept, just decreasing cast time to 0.5s and further increasing projectile speed should be sufficient to make it more reliable. They could also widen the immob hitbox (maybe shortening the range to 900 for balance purposes) so that it could actually hit 5 targets and perhaps make it ground-targeted. I just don't think Anet changing the entire functionality of this skill is likely but I could be wrong, I mean look what they did with focus 4 and staff 1 and 2!

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:

    • Hammer 4: Your suggestion completely changes the functionality. I like it the way it is now, but it could definitely use a faster cast time (0.75s) and perhaps bump the skill up to 3 targets instead of 1.

    True, but it doesn't hurt any of the original functionality. You still have a launch which is 90% use to knock people away from rezzes, but now you also have a gap closer. Some sort of gap closer is critical in my opinion because it frees up the hammers reliance on utilities and other weapons to get close to people.

    Ah, I interpreted your change as the launch being scrapped in favor of a different CC with the mobility being added. If banish involved mobility followed up by the original 750 punt (with the mobility portion occupying the 1s cast time of it), then that's a strict improvement. I love it!

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:

    • Glacial Heart: People often complain about core guard's burst and I think a change to Glacial Heart that Vallun suggested is appropriate: Increase chill duration, remove the RNG (make it 100% chance on crit) decrease damage and lower the icd down to 5s. This would make the focus of the trait more on chilling opponents and helping us stay on them rather than piling more damage on to a burst.

    Vallun's changes would completely fix the problems with hammer in PVP, but my problem with GH is that it only benefits PVP. 20% cooldown reduction only helps the CC skills since MB already has a very fast cooldown, and chill doesn't have much PVE potential. My opinion is that if the hammer is ever going to have some PVE potential it needs to pick up damage variety somewhere. It can either gain that variety in skill changes like a redesign of Zealot's Embrace, or it needs to pick it up in Glacial Heart.

    It's a pvp-oriented trait through and through. If hammer (baseline) was buffed to the point of being a dps meta pick in pve, people would take Zeal, Radiance and even Honor over Virtues since all three of those lines do more for hammer's damage than glacial heart does. If glacial heart was somehow reworked or buffed to the point that it could actually contend with any of the traits in those lines for boosting hammer's dps, I fear it would be very overpowered one way or another in pvp/wvw.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2018

    A simple AA change isn't going to fix hammer. Maybe Anet thought they were being clever attaching the symbol to it, but it was a bad move; it took away choice from the player in doing so. At a minimum, the symbol needs to be moved from AA. That means it needs to be put on something else. Those something elses already have quite full bandwidth IMO.

    I personally don't mind the symbol on AA but I do see the negative implications it has to group play. #5 sucks ... that's what I would rework.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    A simple AA change isn't going to fix hammer. Maybe Anet thought they were being clever attaching the symbol to it, but it was a bad move; it took away choice from the player in doing so. At a minimum, the symbol needs to be moved from AA. That means it needs to be put on something else. Those something elses already have quite full bandwidth IMO.

    I personally don't mind the symbol on AA but I do see the negative implications it has to group play. #5 sucks ... that's what I would rework.

    I've heard this suggested a number of times. While I agree with it, really not sure where the symbol could be stuck unless they reworked #3 or #4 entirely.

    Some have suggested have it be attached to Mighty Blow, but then we'd lose a blast finisher on 5s cooldown unless another ability was reworked to compensate... but may as well just stick the symbol on that reworked ability.

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2018

    Changing to lesser symbol of wrath could be better - more retal sources thus more retal uptime in practice for that 50% crit chance
    on top of that increase symbol time and hammer speed by a shade.

    end result is a hammer that has reliable symbol uptime, then trait for quickness and extra couple of seconds to kick into maximum overdrive. the best part is that the symbols arent free, because the hammer actually has to be hitting you to place the symbols, meaning in spvp there wont be complete undeniable point coverage. Also could help make scourge area denial less of a pain due to all the light fields, making for good condi cleanse for both self and teamates.

    With all the symbols, should also help to bring hammer up to pve dps standards.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sure, it's improved, but I don't see why it would be done. It's not clear what problem is solved by changing symbol to proc retal. It seems to me that the reason hammer isn't the front runner DPS weapon is because that's not it's intention to begin with. Just look at the skills it has. Even Glacial hints at hammer's role as a weapon ... it's not high DPS, it's about control and lockdown.

    I guess the question is: is there a place for a weapon that has the configuration of skills that hammer does? I have no doubt there is so I think proposals that move away from that role are met with skeptical sucking teeth and squinty eyeball looks. It's a hard sell to push hammer DPS increases to the point of 'bringing it up to PVE DPS standards' ... whatever that is.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Sure, it's improved, but I don't see why it would be done. It's not clear what problem is solved by changing symbol to proc retal. It seems to me that the reason hammer isn't the front runner DPS weapon is because that's not it's intention to begin with. Just look at the skills it has. Even Glacial hints at hammer's role as a weapon ... it's not high DPS, it's about control and lockdown.

    I guess the question is: is there a place for a weapon that has the configuration of skills that hammer does? I have no doubt there is so I think proposals that move away from that role are met with skeptical sucking teeth and squinty eyeball looks. It's a hard sell to push hammer DPS increases to the point of 'bringing it up to PVE DPS standards' ... whatever that is.

    The problem is the one proposed at the very beginning of this thread. The goal is to make hammer something more than a quick switch to use occasionally before going back to axe/focus whatever. No one uses the hammer in pve because lets face it in pve deeps matter. Even If you're going support in pve, you're not using hammer. Best case scenario you have it in the other slot to do some breakbar damage before going back. In pvp, hammer is used similarly as an opener or special scenario plug. By allowing hammer to be a real damage option, it can be a mainhand weapon. Im not saying we havent explored every option, I was originally proposing we add control to the AA, although I tend to agree that a lot of hard CC effects could end up OP. if you've got an idea, share by all means.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:
    yeah stun could be really bad with high quickness uptime. perhaps daze would be better, or like i said confusion. I want more than just a second or two more of symbol of protection though, something to really make hammer worth keeping in hand.

    You know why there's not a single AA chain in the entire game that has a hard CC on it? Hard CC includes Stun, Daze, Fear, Taunt, Knockdown, Launch and Immobilize. (+the underwater ones)

    Immobilize is not a hard CC. You can cast skills when affected by it thus it is soft and not Hard CC.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:
    yeah stun could be really bad with high quickness uptime. perhaps daze would be better, or like i said confusion. I want more than just a second or two more of symbol of protection though, something to really make hammer worth keeping in hand.

    You know why there's not a single AA chain in the entire game that has a hard CC on it? Hard CC includes Stun, Daze, Fear, Taunt, Knockdown, Launch and Immobilize. (+the underwater ones)

    Immobilize is not a hard CC. You can cast skills when affected by it thus it is soft and not Hard CC.

    I dispute that categorization.
    But call it what you will, in terms of severity it's more akin to a hard CC than a cripple, for example.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2018

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:
    yeah stun could be really bad with high quickness uptime. perhaps daze would be better, or like i said confusion. I want more than just a second or two more of symbol of protection though, something to really make hammer worth keeping in hand.

    You know why there's not a single AA chain in the entire game that has a hard CC on it? Hard CC includes Stun, Daze, Fear, Taunt, Knockdown, Launch and Immobilize. (+the underwater ones)

    Immobilize is not a hard CC. You can cast skills when affected by it thus it is soft and not Hard CC.

    I dispute that categorization.
    But call it what you will, in terms of severity it's more akin to a hard CC than a cripple, for example.

    Its even defined as only movement impairing by the games traits. Every other you mentioned count as disables thus hard cc.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2018

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    The AA third chain need to be reduced to 0.75 sec. Glacia heart ICD should be reduced to 5 secs (PvE only). Honestly, in PvE the protection has almost no value and the CC, while nice, no one uses a weapon because it has CC, but for damage. The utility value of hammer is a way over precevied. That is why no one uses it in PvE whatsoever.

    What ? Protection, Vigor and -%damage in group is the main reason people can run glass builds all the time in PvE. And no one uses it in PvE because of the annoying, spamming light field that makes all field stacking useless.

    Guardian is not going to use hammer to provide protection to group. There are other classes that do this much better. Plus you only add to the point with light fields.

    The point is the utility of hammer is not that useful for it to do the abysmal damage it currently does. No one uses it in PvE for this specific reason.

    Perhaps not for group content. It can be pretty useful for soloing encounters though, with the right traits.

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:
    yeah stun could be really bad with high quickness uptime. perhaps daze would be better, or like i said confusion. I want more than just a second or two more of symbol of protection though, something to really make hammer worth keeping in hand.

    You know why there's not a single AA chain in the entire game that has a hard CC on it? Hard CC includes Stun, Daze, Fear, Taunt, Knockdown, Launch and Immobilize. (+the underwater ones)

    Immobilize is not a hard CC. You can cast skills when affected by it thus it is soft and not Hard CC.

    I dispute that categorization.
    But call it what you will, in terms of severity it's more akin to a hard CC than a cripple, for example.

    Its even defined as only movement impairing by the games traits. Every other you mentioned count as disables thus hard cc.

    Pretty sure that strictly speaking it's a soft CC according to the game mechanics.

    However, this is semantics. The original point was that certain debuffs are too strong to proc automatically through autoattack chains. Immobilise is one of them - it's the strongest of the soft CCs by a considerable margin, and speaking from experience, there are times when I'd rather by hit by some hard CCs than by an Immobilise. Particularly since immobilise can't be removed through a stunbreak: you need to blow a condition cleanse, hope the cleanse doesn't get soaked up by cover conditions anyway, and hopefully not have another immobolise land on you shortly afterwards.

    Immobilise and hard CC are both too strong to have on an autoattack. The persistent immobolise from the roots that rangers can summon, or the repeating immobilise from thieves, are bad enough, but at least they're costing resources.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    However, this is semantics. The original point was that certain debuffs are too strong to proc automatically through autoattack chains.

    Indeed, that's what we got caught up in.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    The AA third chain need to be reduced to 0.75 sec. Glacia heart ICD should be reduced to 5 secs (PvE only). Honestly, in PvE the protection has almost no value and the CC, while nice, no one uses a weapon because it has CC, but for damage. The utility value of hammer is a way over precevied. That is why no one uses it in PvE whatsoever.

    What ? Protection, Vigor and -%damage in group is the main reason people can run glass builds all the time in PvE. And no one uses it in PvE because of the annoying, spamming light field that makes all field stacking useless.

    Guardian is not going to use hammer to provide protection to group. There are other classes that do this much better. Plus you only add to the point with light fields.

    The point is the utility of hammer is not that useful for it to do the abysmal damage it currently does. No one uses it in PvE for this specific reason.

    Perhaps not for group content. It can be pretty useful for soloing encounters though, with the right traits.

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:
    yeah stun could be really bad with high quickness uptime. perhaps daze would be better, or like i said confusion. I want more than just a second or two more of symbol of protection though, something to really make hammer worth keeping in hand.

    You know why there's not a single AA chain in the entire game that has a hard CC on it? Hard CC includes Stun, Daze, Fear, Taunt, Knockdown, Launch and Immobilize. (+the underwater ones)

    Immobilize is not a hard CC. You can cast skills when affected by it thus it is soft and not Hard CC.

    I dispute that categorization.
    But call it what you will, in terms of severity it's more akin to a hard CC than a cripple, for example.

    Its even defined as only movement impairing by the games traits. Every other you mentioned count as disables thus hard cc.

    Pretty sure that strictly speaking it's a soft CC according to the game mechanics.

    However, this is semantics. The original point was that certain debuffs are too strong to proc automatically through autoattack chains. Immobilise is one of them - it's the strongest of the soft CCs by a considerable margin, and speaking from experience, there are times when I'd rather by hit by some hard CCs than by an Immobilise. Particularly since immobilise can't be removed through a stunbreak: you need to blow a condition cleanse, hope the cleanse doesn't get soaked up by cover conditions anyway, and hopefully not have another immobolise land on you shortly afterwards.

    Immobilise and hard CC are both too strong to have on an autoattack. The persistent immobolise from the roots that rangers can summon, or the repeating immobilise from thieves, are bad enough, but at least they're costing resources.

    Agreed.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2018

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Sure, it's improved, but I don't see why it would be done. It's not clear what problem is solved by changing symbol to proc retal. It seems to me that the reason hammer isn't the front runner DPS weapon is because that's not it's intention to begin with. Just look at the skills it has. Even Glacial hints at hammer's role as a weapon ... it's not high DPS, it's about control and lockdown.

    I guess the question is: is there a place for a weapon that has the configuration of skills that hammer does? I have no doubt there is so I think proposals that move away from that role are met with skeptical sucking teeth and squinty eyeball looks. It's a hard sell to push hammer DPS increases to the point of 'bringing it up to PVE DPS standards' ... whatever that is.

    The problem is the one proposed at the very beginning of this thread. The goal is to make hammer something more than a quick switch to use occasionally before going back to axe/focus whatever. No one uses the hammer in pve because lets face it in pve deeps matter. Even If you're going support in pve, you're not using hammer. Best case scenario you have it in the other slot to do some breakbar damage before going back. In pvp, hammer is used similarly as an opener or special scenario plug. By allowing hammer to be a real damage option, it can be a mainhand weapon. Im not saying we havent explored every option, I was originally proposing we add control to the AA, although I tend to agree that a lot of hard CC effects could end up OP. if you've got an idea, share by all means.

    I get the desire to make hammer something more like a weapon you want to use more often than not for PVE, but you aren't going to do that by ignoring it's purpose and the value it brings to the game. If no one uses hammer in PVE because it's not DPS weapon, that's not actually a problem because we already have numerous and better choices if we want to have big DPS output. IMO, there isn't actually room to have another DPS focused weapon so if you want my idea, it's that improving hammer has nothing to do with giving it damage so it competes with other DPS options in PVE. It's a control and lockdown weapon ... if anything, I would GIVE UP the DPS gains on Mighty blow and turn that into a frequently applied grappling skill; in this game, that's cripple. Maybe it could be an attack that corrupts movement skills if an opponent has them.

    Simply put, it's very short sighted to think that Hammer is fixed by simply adding DPS to it because lacking DPS isn't a problem Guardians have in weapon choices. Do you honestly think that if hammer got more DPS, but still not meta level DPS, it would fix it? If you do, you don't understand how meta works in this game and you don't understand the people that care about it and play it.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Sure, it's improved, but I don't see why it would be done. It's not clear what problem is solved by changing symbol to proc retal. It seems to me that the reason hammer isn't the front runner DPS weapon is because that's not it's intention to begin with. Just look at the skills it has. Even Glacial hints at hammer's role as a weapon ... it's not high DPS, it's about control and lockdown.

    I guess the question is: is there a place for a weapon that has the configuration of skills that hammer does? I have no doubt there is so I think proposals that move away from that role are met with skeptical sucking teeth and squinty eyeball looks. It's a hard sell to push hammer DPS increases to the point of 'bringing it up to PVE DPS standards' ... whatever that is.

    The problem is the one proposed at the very beginning of this thread. The goal is to make hammer something more than a quick switch to use occasionally before going back to axe/focus whatever. No one uses the hammer in pve because lets face it in pve deeps matter. Even If you're going support in pve, you're not using hammer. Best case scenario you have it in the other slot to do some breakbar damage before going back. In pvp, hammer is used similarly as an opener or special scenario plug. By allowing hammer to be a real damage option, it can be a mainhand weapon. Im not saying we havent explored every option, I was originally proposing we add control to the AA, although I tend to agree that a lot of hard CC effects could end up OP. if you've got an idea, share by all means.

    I get the desire to make hammer something more like a weapon you want to use more often than not for PVE, but you aren't going to do that by ignoring it's purpose and the value it brings to the game. If no one uses hammer in PVE because it's not DPS weapon, that's not actually a problem because we already have numerous and better choices if we want to have big DPS output. IMO, there isn't actually room to have another DPS focused weapon so if you want my idea, it's that improving hammer has nothing to do with giving it damage so it competes with other DPS options in PVE. It's a control and lockdown weapon ... if anything, I would GIVE UP the DPS gains on Mighty blow and turn that into a frequently applied grappling skill; in this game, that's cripple. Maybe it could be an attack that corrupts movement skills if an opponent has them.

    Simply put, it's very short sighted to think that Hammer is fixed by simply adding DPS to it because lacking DPS isn't a problem Guardians have in weapon choices. Do you honestly think that if hammer got more DPS, but still not meta level DPS, it would fix it? If you do, you don't understand how meta works in this game and you don't understand the people that care about it and play it.

    Then what? what would make hammer more than the afterthought it is now? That's the point of this thread. I wont pretend to know every facet of guardian, down to the differences in traits for weapon combos, but the fact remains I that in all my time playing hammer guardian I never found a use for using the AA on hammer. It's just too weak and is the whole weapon is better served as a stopgap for a few control situations you might need. I get it 'the purpose of hammer is as a utility weapon' but so far that concept is just weak. You wont 'control' anything for very long if you're using hammer for longer than a hot minute. The answer currently on this thread is to improve the overall DPS, making hammer a skill based weapon that gets the most out of quickness management, while also providing a skill based condi cleanse option through light fields. improving hammer AA damage isn't ignoring hammer's purpose. skills 2 - 5 are all there, and are all ready to use once you need them. The only difference really is you get them now without using hammer as a switch.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2018

    The problem is that theme isn't really inline with the best approach to playing PVE in this game. It's just not a PVE weapon UNLESS you build around it's CC and Prot spamming capabilities for a specific reason in PVE (most likely to solve some VERY specific PVE problem). Therefore, it doesn't make much sense to apply some minor changes to AA (or anywhere else on it) to make it a better PVE weapon because you would STILL need to build around it's CC and Prot spamming capabilities.

    The problem is you are trying to put lipstick on pig for the Miss America contest ... wrong contest.

    If you want hammer to be a PVE weapon, it needs a complete wipe and a new theme ... and I don't get why that would ever happen given the multiple, good choices we already have for PVE weapons. That 'good PVE weapon' space is already full. Adding another doesn't address a problem.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2018

    It's barely a pvp weapon either, as I've pointed out. Nevermind the that the concept of 'PvP weapons and PvE weapons' is bad one.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2018

    Bad or not, that's what it does; it's a much better PVP weapon than a PVE one. Short a full rebuild, you can't make this a main PVE weapon (unless you make it OPed) and I don't see why it would even be considered. We simply don't lack good PVE weapons. Not every weapon is intended to be good for every game mode. IMO, it's more likely to get more traction to fix hammer with a PVP focus than it is PVE.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2018

    In that case, it's preference. If you think hammer doesn't deserve a place in PvE, then I guess I can agree to disagree. Thing is though, improving hammer AA would help it out in PvP. so either way the point stands.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2018

    Well, it's not about preference ... it's about what the weapons do. I see nothing about Hammer that makes me think that when this game was released 6 years ago, that there was a really good reason in PVE to launch, immobilize and contain mobs in a circle. On the other hand, I can see lots of value being able to do that in PVP. Only since mobs have gotten a little smarter (yes I see some run from AOE) and some have bars to break, that these three abilities have gotten more useful in PVE.

    The fact remains that there isn't any room to improve Hammer AA ... it's overloaded as it stands now. In fact, it's very common to see people request it get UNLOADED of it's symbol. It's not a given result that improving Hammer AA helps out in PVP either ... it really depends on how it's changed. Again, the changes that will be meaningful aren't "JUST" a change to the AA, at least not any reasonable ones.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2018

    That there is no room to improve hammer AA is not a fact. It most certainly can be improved and as you can see we've all just been discussing it. In fact you contradict yourself in the next sentence. Just that on one point I think depending on how it's changed could be an improvement in both pve and pvp.

    I'm not entirely sure what your point actually is. I disagree that weapons should remain divided between pvp and pve, ergo it seems our preferences are different.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2018

    I think the point is ... it doesn't matter if you disagree that weapons can be better suited for PVP or PVE ... they are NATURALLY suited to those things based on what the weapons do; sometimes it's both, more often than not, it isn't. You don't change that because of JUST a change to AA. If you want hammer to be the best weapon it can, the suggestions and ideas have to be aligned to what Hammer is (clearly) intended to be good at, not what you think you want it to be good at. Case in point here ... adding more damage is not going to fix what you say is wrong with it in your original post.

    Frankly, I want hammer to be better because I love the IDEA ... but I hate so many things about how it's implemented. I hate 5, I hate the symbol on #1, I hate the knockback on 4 ... on a MELEE weapon. I hate that #2 doesn't leap as far as #4 knockback (or I hate that #4 knockback farther than #2 leaps, take a pick)

    But still, skills have a limited bandwidth for how much 'stuff' it can reasonably do, and not acknowledging that is not being honest or reasonable about what changes can be made to it. It's not a trivial change to 'fix' AA to get a specific result that you wish to see. Hammer requires a whole rework, primarily because the symbol on AA makes it inflexible to getting reasonable updates and it's not immediately obvious what skill could accommodate the symbol being moved.

    Personally, I would eliminate 5, shift the symbol to it's own skill (like the other weapons) and simply reduce the execution time on AA chain 3. That's enough.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭

    actually when dealing with just 5 skills, a small change to any one of them can drastically change it's usage. for example I could make it so skill 5 is non rooting and gives stability - now I can use it better defensively and more safely burst from close range without interrupting the burst combo. But, I'm better off not using AA to do anything. better just to switch back to GS and burst. I can change AA to be faster and have longer symbols - now I can use the AA to apply much better pressure on the enemies I amare controlling with skills 2-5.

    I made this thread because I roughly like hammer's current control setup. I also dont want to get into a massive quibble over each and every facet of every single stat about each hammer skill. I just never have a reason to use AA. I dont believe there is no change you can make to it that wont benefit both PVE and PVP.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2018

    Maybe, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there is a finite bandwidth for the amount of 'things' a single skill does; this is easy enough to see and understand. In this case, Hammer AA is already overloaded with more things than is reasonable when compared to what other skills like it do. You want to add to what AA does to make hammer more attractive, despite how overloaded it already is. Something has to give. Overloading a skill with lots of good stuff is not a way to promote a weapon to be fun or engaging; you end up just camping that one really good skill and use the others sparingly ... ESPECIALLY in the case of Hammer in PVE. Moving the goodness around to all skills is the best approach to making it desirable as a main weapon and not just for swapping for tricks ... which is exactly what you said you wanted from hammer in your opening post.

    The problem with hammer has nothing to do with the fact it doesn't have good skills or it doesn't do 'competitive' PVE damage. It's the fact that AA is overloaded. If you want the AA to 'have a reason', then you have to be reasonable and ready to accept that the 'have no reason' stuff that's on AA needs to move out so new tenants can move in. You're unwillingness to consider the truth of this makes me think you don't have a genuine interest in making hammer a weapon that's attractive for main use.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    You're unwillingness to consider the truth of this makes me think you don't have a genuine interest in making hammer a weapon that's attractive for main use.

    What? Where? I think you've misunderstood me completely. All I want to do is improve hammer AA and I'm here to discuss how to do that. I'm open to any ideas, as I've said already. You've gone from 'Hammer is a utility weapon and should remain that way' to 'Hammer AA cant be improved' to 'Actually it can but hammer AA has too much going on.'

    If that part at the end there was your main argument all along then I'm sorry to say thus far I ignored it because as far I didn't think you were serious. Thing is though, if you think hammer AA can be improved by removing symbol and adding something else, lets bloody hear it already. I'm basically with you, all I want is an improvement. In fact, I've already suggested that the symbol just be changed.

    Furthermore there is absolutely no rule as to why hammer cant have more than it does, not written nor unwritten. It currently does one special thing, and that is place a symbol at the end of it's chain. It needs to get through 2 and 1/4 seconds of cast time in straight melee to cast it. If adding something to it brings it up to scratch with other weapons, then why not? what's this notion of 'oh its too overloaded, it casts a useless symbol look at that.' Even better if you add something that makes the symbol worth getting through the chain for, perhaps a weakness on chain 2 so that the protection from the symbol is even better.

  • Indure.5410Indure.5410 Member ✭✭
    edited September 26, 2018

    Wow this thread is moving fast.

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:

    @Indure.5410 said:

    Does it have potential for abuse and is it OP?

    Symbol of Wrath: 20s cooldown/~2880 DPS (5 ticks)/ Retaliation
    Symbol of Swiftness: 15s cooldown/~2145 DPS (5 ticks)/ Swiftness
    Symbol of Faith: 8s cooldown/~1955 DPS (5 ticks)/ Regen
    Symbol of Punishment: 6s cooldown/~391 DPS (some amount of ticks)/ Might
    Symbol of Blades: 10s cooldown/?? DPS (6 ticks)/ Fury
    Symbol of Energy: 15s cooldown/ ?? DPS/ Vigor
    Symbol of Vengeance: 8s cooldown/~2300 (5 ticks)/ conditions
    Symbol of Protection (with propose changes): 5s cooldown/~1000 DPS (3 ticks)/ Protection

    So assuming a version of my original idea of a 2s symbol on the first AA with a 5s internal cooldown, would it be OP compared to other symbols? I don't think so. 5s is quick, but close to Punishment, Faith, Vengeance and Blades in your ability to use it. Keep in mind that the duration of the symbol would only be 2s compared to the 4s duration of every other symbol. Also the damage would be potentially much lower than all the other symbols to balance out the gain in damage from a faster AA chain.

    On a side note WTH is with Symbol of Energy, why is its cooldown so long? 15s for moderate damage and Vigor is oldschool symbol design.

    What I meant is that a guardian not currently striking anything with their hammer could spam hammer 1 to give themself perma protection. Since the symbol is attached to the first attack, the second two attacks won't activate meaning you could spam the symbol on nothing just to give yourself protection. It's (arguably) on the overpowered side if you ask me.

    I'm trying to understand the disconnect. If the first auto-attack has a 5s internal cooldown on the symbol portion then you can only proc the symbol every 5s regardless of how many AA's you spam. For all intensive purposes the internal cooldown acts as a regular cooldown. Unless traited for Writ of Persistence, you would only get 3s of protection every 5s (+.5s for recast) with the caveat that you would have to remain basically stationary in your symbol. Which in PVE is strong, but rather weak in the more mobile PVP side, where Guardians most likely have to leave their symbols rather quickly to keep up with moving opponents in the hope of doing viable damage with a melee oriented weapon.

    In comparison to something like Symbol of Faith which when fully traited with Writ of Persistence and Invigorated Bulwark can almost indefinitely keep down a Symbol of Faith to gain regen if the ability is spammed, I don't see why this would be overpowered.

    Is your concern only that Protection is too valuable of a boon to have easy and "quick" access to?

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Indure.5410 said:

    I'm trying to understand the disconnect. If the first auto-attack has a 5s internal cooldown on the symbol portion then you can only proc the symbol every 5s regardless of how many AA's you spam. For all intensive purposes the internal cooldown acts as a regular cooldown. Unless traited for Writ of Persistence, you would only get 3s of protection every 5s (+.5s for recast) with the caveat that you would have to remain basically stationary in your symbol. Which in PVE is strong, but rather weak in the more mobile PVP side, where Guardians most likely have to leave their symbols rather quickly to keep up with moving opponents in the hope of doing viable damage with a melee oriented weapon.

    In comparison to something like Symbol of Faith which when fully traited with Writ of Persistence and Invigorated Bulwark can almost indefinitely keep down a Symbol of Faith to gain regen if the ability is spammed, I don't see why this would be overpowered.

    Is your concern only that Protection is too valuable of a boon to have easy and "quick" access to?

    It was, but now that I went back and fully read your first post for the hammer auto attack, this opens up a whole new can of worms. Tbh, I missed that 5s icd the first time reading through because I wasn't expecting something like that - there's no precedent for anything auto attack related having an icd.

    I understand what you proposed but it still sounds slightly too complex. I'd rather the auto attack chain receive other buffs, such as boons attached to the 1st or 2nd swings, or just speed up the cast times.

  • @Arcaedus.7290 said:

    @Indure.5410 said:

    I'm trying to understand the disconnect. If the first auto-attack has a 5s internal cooldown on the symbol portion then you can only proc the symbol every 5s regardless of how many AA's you spam. For all intensive purposes the internal cooldown acts as a regular cooldown. Unless traited for Writ of Persistence, you would only get 3s of protection every 5s (+.5s for recast) with the caveat that you would have to remain basically stationary in your symbol. Which in PVE is strong, but rather weak in the more mobile PVP side, where Guardians most likely have to leave their symbols rather quickly to keep up with moving opponents in the hope of doing viable damage with a melee oriented weapon.

    In comparison to something like Symbol of Faith which when fully traited with Writ of Persistence and Invigorated Bulwark can almost indefinitely keep down a Symbol of Faith to gain regen if the ability is spammed, I don't see why this would be overpowered.

    Is your concern only that Protection is too valuable of a boon to have easy and "quick" access to?

    It was, but now that I went back and fully read your first post for the hammer auto attack, this opens up a whole new can of worms. Tbh, I missed that 5s icd the first time reading through because I wasn't expecting something like that - there's no precedent for anything auto attack related having an icd.

    I understand what you proposed but it still sounds slightly too complex. I'd rather the auto attack chain receive other buffs, such as boons attached to the 1st or 2nd swings, or just speed up the cast times.

    But if you change the AA chain with boons instead of a symbol then you have to move the symbol to another skill and now you are the one making dramatic changes to how the weapon performs. :)

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2018

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    You're unwillingness to consider the truth of this makes me think you don't have a genuine interest in making hammer a weapon that's attractive for main use.

    What? Where? I think you've misunderstood me completely. All I want to do is improve hammer AA and I'm here to discuss how to do that. I'm open to any ideas, as I've said already. You've gone from 'Hammer is a utility weapon and should remain that way' to 'Hammer AA cant be improved' to 'Actually it can but hammer AA has too much going on.'

    If that part at the end there was your main argument all along then I'm sorry to say thus far I ignored it because as far I didn't think you were serious. Thing is though, if you think hammer AA can be improved by removing symbol and adding something else, lets bloody hear it already. I'm basically with you, all I want is an improvement. In fact, I've already suggested that the symbol just be changed.

    Furthermore there is absolutely no rule as to why hammer cant have more than it does, not written nor unwritten. It currently does one special thing, and that is place a symbol at the end of it's chain. It needs to get through 2 and 1/4 seconds of cast time in straight melee to cast it. If adding something to it brings it up to scratch with other weapons, then why not? what's this notion of 'oh its too overloaded, it casts a useless symbol look at that.' Even better if you add something that makes the symbol worth getting through the chain for, perhaps a weakness on chain 2 so that the protection from the symbol is even better.

    Me too ... it's just that I acknowledge Hammer AA already 'full', There is a 'rule'; it's called reasonable weapon skill design and if you look at how weapons are designed, you can see how adding more to hammer AA is highly unlikely for the reasons I already stated. I already gave my ideas on how Hammer should be changed ... I guess you missed that as well.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Indure.5410 said:

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:

    @Indure.5410 said:

    I'm trying to understand the disconnect. If the first auto-attack has a 5s internal cooldown on the symbol portion then you can only proc the symbol every 5s regardless of how many AA's you spam. For all intensive purposes the internal cooldown acts as a regular cooldown. Unless traited for Writ of Persistence, you would only get 3s of protection every 5s (+.5s for recast) with the caveat that you would have to remain basically stationary in your symbol. Which in PVE is strong, but rather weak in the more mobile PVP side, where Guardians most likely have to leave their symbols rather quickly to keep up with moving opponents in the hope of doing viable damage with a melee oriented weapon.

    In comparison to something like Symbol of Faith which when fully traited with Writ of Persistence and Invigorated Bulwark can almost indefinitely keep down a Symbol of Faith to gain regen if the ability is spammed, I don't see why this would be overpowered.

    Is your concern only that Protection is too valuable of a boon to have easy and "quick" access to?

    It was, but now that I went back and fully read your first post for the hammer auto attack, this opens up a whole new can of worms. Tbh, I missed that 5s icd the first time reading through because I wasn't expecting something like that - there's no precedent for anything auto attack related having an icd.

    I understand what you proposed but it still sounds slightly too complex. I'd rather the auto attack chain receive other buffs, such as boons attached to the 1st or 2nd swings, or just speed up the cast times.

    But if you change the AA chain with boons instead of a symbol then you have to move the symbol to another skill and now you are the one making dramatic changes to how the weapon performs. :)

    I thought about that before I replied actually and I agree; moving the symbol to another skill would either dramatically change the skill since it would likely need a rework/something else would be reworked to compensate for the loss, and it would also really change the function and utility of the auto attack chain.

    As boring as it sounds, I think symbol being on the third swing of auto attack is best left alone (unless we do a complete overhaul of hammer). I was just suggesting that a good buff would be to add some boons to the first and second swings, and speed up the third so that it would be an overall buff.

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    You're unwillingness to consider the truth of this makes me think you don't have a genuine interest in making hammer a weapon that's attractive for main use.

    What? Where? I think you've misunderstood me completely. All I want to do is improve hammer AA and I'm here to discuss how to do that. I'm open to any ideas, as I've said already. You've gone from 'Hammer is a utility weapon and should remain that way' to 'Hammer AA cant be improved' to 'Actually it can but hammer AA has too much going on.'

    If that part at the end there was your main argument all along then I'm sorry to say thus far I ignored it because as far I didn't think you were serious. Thing is though, if you think hammer AA can be improved by removing symbol and adding something else, lets bloody hear it already. I'm basically with you, all I want is an improvement. In fact, I've already suggested that the symbol just be changed.

    Furthermore there is absolutely no rule as to why hammer cant have more than it does, not written nor unwritten. It currently does one special thing, and that is place a symbol at the end of it's chain. It needs to get through 2 and 1/4 seconds of cast time in straight melee to cast it. If adding something to it brings it up to scratch with other weapons, then why not? what's this notion of 'oh its too overloaded, it casts a useless symbol look at that.' Even better if you add something that makes the symbol worth getting through the chain for, perhaps a weakness on chain 2 so that the protection from the symbol is even better.

    Me too ... it's just that I acknowledge Hammer AA already 'full', There is a 'rule'; it's called reasonable weapon skill design and if you look at how weapons are designed, you can see how adding more to hammer AA is highly unlikely for the reasons I already stated. I already gave my ideas on how Hammer should be changed ... I guess you missed that as well.

    I guess I did miss it. but, eliminate skill 5? I'll stop there, I've already said that I dont want to quibble the other skills. I personally dont think that removing the symbol and reducing channel time of chain 3 would lead to me using hammer auto. Just changing the symbol itself and speeding up hammer overall isnt adding anything, just buffing whats already there.

  • @Arcaedus.7290 said:
    It was, but now that I went back and fully read your first post for the hammer auto attack, this opens up a whole new can of worms. Tbh, I missed that 5s icd the first time reading through because I wasn't expecting something like that - there's no precedent for anything auto attack related having an icd.

    I understand what you proposed but it still sounds slightly too complex. I'd rather the auto attack chain receive other buffs, such as boons attached to the 1st or 2nd swings, or just speed up the cast times.

    I understand that there is no precedent for an internal cooldown being placed on an AA chain and it sounds crazy, but I think when you stop and think about it, it is a sensible change.

    It keeps the heart of the ability intact, which is an AA chain with a symbol tied to it, while noticeably improving it in both PVE and PVP, and making it easier to balance. Internal cooldowns aren't affected by alacrity, quickness, or the 20% cooldown traits so you have precise control on balancing uptime of the symbol in a way that you don't currently have (largely due to quickness). You also can change the speed of the AA chain completely independently of the symbol generation in a way that is impossible in its current design.

    In terms of PVP you get a much more worthwhile ability. The hammer has reasonable CC and some burst damage, but is wholly lacking sustain damage that can apply continuous pressure in between bursting cycles and has very little in the way of allowing you to survive burst. The changes I suggest will give you an on demand Symbol of Protection that one: lets you mitigate incoming burst when timed right and two: allows you to put more continuous pressure when initiating. The general jist of the weapon would be to get into melee, CC your opponent, drop a symbol, MB, and then follow up with quick .5s auto attacks. The symbol will give you protection to avoid counter damage as well as provide tick damage if the opponent doesn't/can't flee, and with a quicker AA chain you can more consistently apply damage.

    In terms of PVE, the change wouldn't fix the hammer completely, but it provides a meaningful starting point to let further changes happen. You're no longer going to have spammed light fields overlaying more powerful fields. You're going to have quicker AA chains which is a hell of a quality of life change. You're going to be able to incorporate MB into rotations without a DPS loss. My math might be off but I think you would lose ~12% of your damage compared to the current implementation (not counting quickness) which could be be invested to strengthen other skills or to give your AA more power.

  • Brutaly.6257Brutaly.6257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2018

    I my humble opinion this is an easy one.

    Which can be solved by adjusting numbers (cd/damage/number of targets) and adding in a QoL change the warriors got way back on their hammer, being able to move while casting RoW. In a perfect world RoW would also be a fire field but i can live with out that.

    Just reduce the casting time on the chain and adjust the symbol uptime/damage accordingly.

    The main issue with hammer is that the rest of the skills are underwhelming or outdated/slow.
    Increase damage and range on #2 so it is a part of a damage rotation in pve.
    On #3, increase damage so it is a part of a damage rotation in pve.
    Increase number of targets and damage on #4 so it is a part of a damage rotation in pve.
    Make it possible to move while casting #5.

    If they did this the 5 skills in hammer could be used in a burst damage rotation (pve and pvp) while still keeping its place as a control weapon.

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