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improvements to hammer aa?


Fipmip.7219

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I like hammer's CC powers but there's almost never a reason to use it for long before switching to something else, unless you just like it as a concept. I think a simple improvement to the AA would help. perhaps a stun on second chain, or apply confusion, anything that makes some amount of sense really. perhaps just more damage in general. Even with the symbol at the end, I feel hammer just under performs if you want to stay on it. Also a couple of the CC abilities could use a tweak or two but that's another topic.

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The hammer already has 3 CC skills with Ring of Warding being one of the most powerful in the game. Adding in a stun on the auto attack would make it ridiculously strong. Maybe a reduced cast time on the third auto attack chain would be nice especially when the protection field only lasts for 2 seconds. Other than that, the hammer is fine.

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The point of hammer auto attack is mostly the symbol on the 3rd strike, when traited this make the hammer AA one of the best thing the guardian have. I agree with Hoodie that a slightly reduced cast time on the 3rd attack of the AA (to 1 second cast time) would be nice enough for the AA. I'd also suggest to drop Hammer#2 mighty blow cast time to 1/2 as well.

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@Fipmip.7219 said:yeah stun could be really bad with high quickness uptime. perhaps daze would be better, or like i said confusion. I want more than just a second or two more of symbol of protection though, something to really make hammer worth keeping in hand.

You know why there's not a single AA chain in the entire game that has a hard CC on it? Hard CC includes Stun, Daze, Fear, Taunt, Knockdown, Launch and Immobilize. (+the underwater ones)

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@Dadnir.5038 said:The point of hammer auto attack is mostly the symbol on the 3rd strike, when traited this make the hammer AA one of the best thing the guardian have. I agree with Hoodie that a slightly reduced cast time on the 3rd attack of the AA (to 1 second cast time) would be nice enough for the AA. I'd also suggest to drop Hammer#2 mighty blow cast time to 1/2 as well.

Despite the symbol traits like the vuln and 33% chance of burn and stuff, I still dont feel like a 2 second symbol is worth it. making a 4 second symbol is possible but since you're probably playing firebrand or dragonhunter, you have a choice of two core traitlines. one is zeal for symbolic power, symbolic exposure and symbolic avenger traits, plus stuff like fiery wrath/wrathful spirit and zealot's speed. so your last option could be honor for that extra two seconds and some support traits. thing is if you're going support you should be using something like mace/shield/staff, not using hammer autos, and not using zeal. so really you just want radiance for the massive crit chance props and radiant fire. Perhaps a good buff for hammer would be increase in base symbol time to 4 seconds and/or let symbols do crits.

Thing is though, is that the symbol is a fairly useless tool in pvp, since enemies rarely stay in them, and on top of that the hammer symbol has a long, interruptible cast time. you might forget the hammer has two other attacks to get through before actually casting the symbol, which means you'll need to start the chain again if you get interrupted.

With that said, I think hammer needs something other than symbol to round out its AA.

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@Yannir.4132 said:

@Fipmip.7219 said:yeah stun could be really bad with high quickness uptime. perhaps daze would be better, or like i said confusion. I want more than just a second or two more of symbol of protection though, something to really make hammer worth keeping in hand.

You know why there's not a single AA chain in the entire game that has a hard CC on it? Hard CC includes Stun, Daze, Fear, Taunt, Knockdown, Launch and Immobilize. (+the underwater ones)

if you're going to include immobilize on that list then you should also include cripple, which is a also a non disabling CC effect. and guess what, grenade AA on engi can be traited for basically perma cripple. When I said daze, I was thinking of theif headshot, which can keep you trying to channel anything for a good while with initiative mechanics. and lets not forget pulmonary impact. I figured that since hammer needs to channel its attacks a small daze every few seconds (if you're letting hammer hit you) would equate to the same thing.

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@Fipmip.7219 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:The point of hammer auto attack is mostly the symbol on the 3rd strike, when traited this make the hammer AA one of the best thing the guardian have. I agree with Hoodie that a slightly reduced cast time on the 3rd attack of the AA (to 1 second cast time) would be nice enough for the AA. I'd also suggest to drop Hammer#2 mighty blow cast time to 1/2 as well.

Despite the symbol traits like the vuln and 33% chance of burn and stuff, I still dont feel like a 2 second symbol is worth it. making a 4 second symbol is possible but since you're probably playing firebrand or dragonhunter, you have a choice of two core traitlines. one is zeal for symbolic power, symbolic exposure and symbolic avenger traits, plus stuff like fiery wrath/wrathful spirit and zealot's speed. so your last option could be honor for that extra two seconds and some support traits. thing is if you're going support you should be using something like mace/shield/staff, not using hammer autos, and not using zeal. so really you just want radiance for the massive crit chance props and radiant fire. Perhaps a good buff for hammer would be increase in base symbol time to 4 seconds and/or let symbols do crits.

Thing is though, is that the symbol is a fairly useless tool in pvp, since enemies rarely stay in them, and on top of that the hammer symbol has a long, interruptible cast time. you might forget the hammer has two other attacks to get through before actually casting the symbol, which means you'll need to start the chain again if you get interrupted.

With that said, I think hammer needs something other than symbol to round out its AA.

Unfortunately GW2 isn't only PvP it's also WvW and PvE where a sustainable symbole might be interesting. And as baffling as it may be, some players might enjoy playing core guardian, If I recall correctly there used to be some core medhammer build doing great in PvP. Not everything need to fit DH and FB, maybe next e-spec will have a mindblowing synergy with symbols and make hammer the best pick possible.

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@Fipmip.7219 said:

@Fipmip.7219 said:yeah stun could be really bad with high quickness uptime. perhaps daze would be better, or like i said confusion. I want more than just a second or two more of symbol of protection though, something to really make hammer worth keeping in hand.

You know why there's not a single AA chain in the entire game that has a hard CC on it? Hard CC includes Stun, Daze, Fear, Taunt, Knockdown, Launch and Immobilize. (+the underwater ones)

if you're going to include immobilize on that list then you should also include cripple, which is a also a non disabling CC effect. and guess what, grenade AA on engi can be traited for basically perma cripple. When I said daze, I was thinking of theif headshot, which can keep you trying to channel anything for a good while with initiative mechanics. and lets not forget pulmonary impact. I figured that since hammer needs to channel its attacks a small daze every few seconds (if you're letting hammer hit you) would equate to the same thing.

A well placed Immobilize is of equal value than a Daze of the same duration so yes, I will include it. It might even be a bit better. You don't need to look so far for examples when there's a Crippling AA in the same class we're talking about. Dragonhunter Longbow.As you pointed out earlier, Quickness is a thing. That would equate to a Daze every 1.9 or so seconds.

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The AA third chain need to be reduced to 0.75 sec. Glacia heart ICD should be reduced to 5 secs (PvE only). Honestly, in PvE the protection has almost no value and the CC, while nice, no one uses a weapon because it has CC, but for damage. The utility value of hammer is a way over precevied. That is why no one uses it in PvE whatsoever.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:The point of hammer auto attack is mostly the symbol on the 3rd strike, when traited this make the hammer AA one of the best thing the guardian have. I agree with Hoodie that a slightly reduced cast time on the 3rd attack of the AA (to 1 second cast time) would be nice enough for the AA. I'd also suggest to drop Hammer#2 mighty blow cast time to 1/2 as well.

Despite the symbol traits like the vuln and 33% chance of burn and stuff, I still dont feel like a 2 second symbol is worth it. making a 4 second symbol is possible but since you're probably playing firebrand or dragonhunter, you have a choice of two core traitlines. one is zeal for symbolic power, symbolic exposure and symbolic avenger traits, plus stuff like fiery wrath/wrathful spirit and zealot's speed. so your last option could be honor for that extra two seconds and some support traits. thing is if you're going support you should be using something like mace/shield/staff, not using hammer autos, and not using zeal. so really you just want radiance for the massive crit chance props and radiant fire. Perhaps a good buff for hammer would be increase in base symbol time to 4 seconds and/or let symbols do crits.

Thing is though, is that the symbol is a fairly useless tool in pvp, since enemies rarely stay in them, and on top of that the hammer symbol has a long, interruptible cast time. you might forget the hammer has two other attacks to get through before actually casting the symbol, which means you'll need to start the chain again if you get interrupted.

With that said, I think hammer needs something other than symbol to round out its AA.

Unfortunately GW2 isn't only PvP it's also WvW and PvE where a sustainable symbole might be interesting. And as baffling as it may be, some players might enjoy playing core guardian, If I recall correctly there used to be some core medhammer build doing great in PvP. Not everything need to fit DH and FB, maybe next e-spec will have a mindblowing synergy with symbols and make hammer the best pick possible.

might be interesting? might enjoy playing core hammer guardian? used to be a build? perhaps new espec is good for hammer?

or we can just buff AA a bit like I suggested. Like I said support hammer exists but what are you using the AA for? you're supporting with the symbol? for goodness sake.

I'ver tried to play hammer in pvp, wvw, and am currently doing story mode with it on core guard. And the whole time, despite how cool i look, there's a constant voice at the back of my head saying, "why is this weapon still in my hands? i'm not doing nearly the damage I could be. I'm not doing nearly the healing I could be. I really ought to just be switching to this weapon when I need it then switching out."

Keep that nagging going for a few hours and it's small wonder hammer keeps getting a thread here on the forums. it doesn't feel quite good enough.

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@Hoodie.1045 said:The hammer already has 3 CC skills with Ring of Warding being one of the most powerful in the game. Adding in a stun on the auto attack would make it ridiculously strong. Maybe a reduced cast time on the third auto attack chain would be nice especially when the protection field only lasts for 2 seconds. Other than that, the hammer is fine.

Agree with this. I've also heard it proposed that all three attacks of the chain could be shortened considerably and just remove 1 tick off the symbol at the end. This would result in about equal protection uptime if untraited and overall dps increase.

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I've thought way too much about hammer and how it should be designed. I personally think it should be retooled quite a bit. My suggestions would be:

1. Rebuild AA: Make all attacks in the chain .5s cast times similar to the Greatsword. Symbol of Protection is moved to the initial attack and last for 3s. An internal cooldown is placed on the symbol so it can only trigger every 5s and only from the first AA in the chain. The final AA in the chain is given a small damage increase and possibly small boon (might/regen/etc) to encourage completion of the chain.

These changes would do a number of different things for the hammer. It allows the guardian to get a symbol down early in a fight which will help tremendously in PvP where it is incredibly hard to get 3 AA's completed. It negates the mandatory AA spam in PVE allowing for the use of MB and potentially other skills without a DPS loss. It still allows permanent protection and symbol up-time with Writ of Persistence. Overall it just gives a better and more reliable AA chain without breaking the balance that it already had.

2. Mighty Blow: no changes.

3. Zealot's Embrace: I just want more reliability out of this CC, as of now it is too slow to cast, has travel time to target, and is poorly designed to make use of its ability to hit 5 targets. For simplicity purposes either model a new Zealot's Embrace after the sceptor's Chains of Light (reliable single target immobilize) or the warrior's Hammer Shock (reliable AOE cripple).

I would also be in favor of scrapping ZE altogether and making it a damage tool. Perhaps something like the DH's Spear of Justice, linking you with a single target and giving you bonuses against them.

4. Banish: Make Banish a gap-closer like the GS: Leap of Faith. The 1s cast time is needed due to the strong CC at the end, but it could incorporate a 600-900 charge to close the gap while the 1s is animating. A knockdown would be more beneficial than a launch, but either CC is fine. The cooldown would need to be increased to 30-40s to balance the gain.

This would be a straight gain for PvP, but would give the Guardian some helpful repositioning and re-targeting in PVE as well.

5. Ring of Warding: Just change it so we can move while casting, even if it is at a slower speed.

6. Glacial Heart: With the changes above, the 20% hammer cooldowns becomes more desirable already, but mainly for PvP. I don't think the the chill is needed and I would much rather see the remaining part of the trait benefit PVE. Potential ideas for changing:

  • Persistent Heart: Combine it with Writ of Persistence (-the healing in symbols) and either keep it where it is in Virtues or make it a grandmaster in Virtues. I doubt this change would ever happen though.
  • Fiery Heart: Symbol of Protection is converted into a fire field. Pulses of symbol have a 33% to apply burning (stacks with Symbolic Power).

  • Heart of Wisdom: Gain an effect (similar to Sigil of Bloodlust), every landed AA (all weapons) increases stack, at 15-25 stacks summons Hammer of Wisdom to attack current target (Sword of Justice would be better and easier to balance, but would make zero sense as a hammer trait).

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@Indure.5410 said:I've thought way too much about hammer and how it should be designed. I personally think it should be retooled quite a bit. My suggestions would be:

1. Rebuild AA: Make all attacks in the chain .5s cast times similar to the Greatsword. Symbol of Protection is moved to the initial attack and last for 3s. An internal cooldown is placed on the symbol so it can only trigger every 5s and only from the first AA in the chain. The final AA in the chain is given a small damage increase and possibly small boon (might/regen/etc) to encourage completion of the chain.

These changes would do a number of different things for the hammer. It allows the guardian to get a symbol down early in a fight which will help tremendously in PvP where it is incredibly hard to get 3 AA's completed. It negates the mandatory AA spam in PVE allowing for the use of MB and potentially other skills without a DPS loss. It still allows permanent protection and symbol up-time with Writ of Persistence. Overall it just gives a better and more reliable AA chain without breaking the balance that it already had.

2. Mighty Blow: no changes.

3. Zealot's Embrace: I just want more reliability out of this CC, as of now it is too slow to cast, has travel time to target, and is poorly designed to make use of its ability to hit 5 targets. For simplicity purposes either model a new Zealot's Embrace after the sceptor's Chains of Light (reliable single target immobilize) or the warrior's Hammer Shock (reliable AOE cripple).

I would also be in favor of scrapping ZE altogether and making it a damage tool. Perhaps something like the DH's Spear of Justice, linking you with a single target and giving you bonuses against them.

4. Banish: Make Banish a gap-closer like the GS: Leap of Faith. The 1s cast time is needed due to the strong CC at the end, but it could incorporate a 600-900 charge to close the gap while the 1s is animating. A knockdown would be more beneficial than a launch, but either CC is fine. The cooldown would need to be increased to 30-40s to balance the gain.

This would be a straight gain for PvP, but would give the Guardian some helpful repositioning and re-targeting in PVE as well.

5. Ring of Warding: Just change it so we can move while casting, even if it is at a slower speed.

6. Glacial Heart: With the changes above, the 20% hammer cooldowns becomes more desirable already, but mainly for PvP. I don't think the the chill is needed and I would much rather see the remaining part of the trait benefit PVE. Potential ideas for changing:

  • Persistent Heart: Combine it with Writ of Persistence (-the healing in symbols) and either keep it where it is in Virtues or make it a grandmaster in Virtues. I doubt this change would ever happen though.
  • Fiery Heart: Symbol of Protection is converted into a fire field. Pulses of symbol have a 33% to apply burning (stacks with Symbolic Power).

  • Heart of Wisdom: Gain an effect (similar to Sigil of Bloodlust), every landed AA (all weapons) increases stack, at 15-25 stacks summons Hammer of Wisdom to attack current target (Sword of Justice would be better and easier to balance, but would make zero sense as a hammer trait).

What would these hammer changes achieve? Keep in mind that changes to weapons usually try to keep the weapon in line with its thematic concept. Also, Anet very rarely tends to carry out reworks. With these things in mind, can you think of any simple changes/numerical buffs that would achieve the same things for hammer that you're trying to propose now?

In regards to what you suggested, I'll offer some of my own suggestions:

  • Hammer 1: The symbol being put on the first auto attack has potential for abuse assuming you're not attacking a target. I think it would be better to just give a flat buff to this skill and decrease the cast times for the first two strikes in the chain followed by a small damage buff for the third auto.
  • Hammer 2: Yeah, MB is in a pretty good spot right now, however one big issue is that it's a mobility loss compared to just running in a straight line. While hammer does not need to be a mobile weapon, it shouldn't detract from mobility which it already does with Ring of Warding. I say increase MB's range to 450 but keep the same cast time/aftercast.
  • Hammer 3: I think just decreasing cast time would accomplish your goal. 0.5s cast time is fair considering this skill is a dps loss, generally only hits 1-3 targets and the immobilize isn't really that generous.
  • Hammer 4: Your suggestion completely changes the functionality. I like it the way it is now, but it could definitely use a faster cast time (0.75s) and perhaps bump the skill up to 3 targets instead of 1.
  • Hammer 5: Agree with your suggestion. There need be no trade off though. Just give us the flat buff of making this a mobile skill, it wouldn't upset balance in any noticeable way for any game mode.
  • Glacial Heart: People often complain about core guard's burst and I think a change to Glacial Heart that Vallun suggested is appropriate: Increase chill duration, remove the RNG (make it 100% chance on crit) decrease damage and lower the icd down to 5s. This would make the focus of the trait more on chilling opponents and helping us stay on them rather than piling more damage on to a burst.
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@otto.5684 said:The AA third chain need to be reduced to 0.75 sec. Glacia heart ICD should be reduced to 5 secs (PvE only). Honestly, in PvE the protection has almost no value and the CC, while nice, no one uses a weapon because it has CC, but for damage. The utility value of hammer is a way over precevied. That is why no one uses it in PvE whatsoever.

What ? Protection, Vigor and -%damage in group is the main reason people can run glass builds all the time in PvE. And no one uses it in PvE because of the annoying, spamming light field that makes all field stacking useless.

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@Hannelore.8153 said:

@otto.5684 said:The AA third chain need to be reduced to 0.75 sec. Glacia heart ICD should be reduced to 5 secs (PvE only). Honestly, in PvE the protection has almost no value and the CC, while nice, no one uses a weapon because it has CC, but for damage. The utility value of hammer is a way over precevied. That is why no one uses it in PvE whatsoever.

What ? Protection, Vigor and -%damage in group is the main reason people can run glass builds all the time in PvE. And no one uses it in PvE because of the annoying, spamming light field that makes all field stacking useless.

Guardian is not going to use hammer to provide protection to group. There are other classes that do this much better. Plus you only add to the point with light fields.

The point is the utility of hammer is not that useful for it to do the abysmal damage it currently does. No one uses it in PvE for this specific reason.

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@Arcaedus.7290 said:What would these hammer changes achieve? Keep in mind that changes to weapons usually try to keep the weapon in line with its thematic concept. Also, Anet very rarely tends to carry out reworks. With these things in mind, can you think of any simple changes/numerical buffs that would achieve the same things for hammer that you're trying to propose now?

My propose changes would be two-fold. In terms of PVP I think the hammer is deficient. I think it has reasonable burst from MB, but even though 60% of the weapon is based around CC, it does a terrible job of locking down opponents and staying in melee range. Typically speaking the hammer is heavily/overly reliant on other weapons and utilities in order for it to have any viability, leaving the Guardian defenseless and without escapes when its initial attacks fail. Also its only bonus to survivability comes from its symbol which is impossible to get use out of in PVP. My propose changes would give it an on-demand symbol and protection for improved survival, quicker AA and symbols uptime to improve sustained damage, A gap closer so it isn't entirely reliant on Judges Intervention/Symbol of Blades, and potentially some improvement to ZE to give it more reliable CC to stay on target.

The other changes to the weapon are based on PVE, which I believe the hammer isn't just deficient in, but is so bad it makes the weapon unfun and impossible to balance. Since 60% of the weapon is based around CC (which only has minor benefits in PVE) all damage from the weapon comes from AA+symbol and MB. But due to the fact that the majority of damage comes from the symbol, it is actually a DPS loss to use MB. This leaves Guardians AA spamming in PVE content. This is unfun and bad game design. Worse the symbol+AA is so good when fully traited you can't even boost the other 4 skills in any way that isn't OP to give them presence in a rotation. You would practically have to double the damage of MB to make it not a DPS loss. By putting the symbol on the first hit and adding an internal cooldown you break up the need for AA spamming. Now MB and any other skills can be used whenever, because it doesn't have any effect on symbol uptime. Slower symbol generation also fixes the problem of Light field spamming. I think Zealots Embrace could also be redesign as a PVE damage tool, especially if Glacial Heart is modified like Vallun suggested. Guardians would get a reliable CC and wouldn't need ZE to stay on target, and since Glacial Heart provides nothing for PVE it would be needed.

I don't think minor number changes can fix the hammer, especially in PVE due to how AA and symbols work together You just can't balance that without making some major changes.

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

  • Hammer 1: The symbol being put on the first auto attack has potential for abuse assuming you're not attacking a target. I think it would be better to just give a flat buff to this skill and decrease the cast times for the first two strikes in the chain followed by a small damage buff for the third auto.

Does it have potential for abuse and is it OP?

Symbol of Wrath: 20s cooldown/~2880 DPS (5 ticks)/ RetaliationSymbol of Swiftness: 15s cooldown/~2145 DPS (5 ticks)/ SwiftnessSymbol of Faith: 8s cooldown/~1955 DPS (5 ticks)/ RegenSymbol of Punishment: 6s cooldown/~391 DPS (some amount of ticks)/ MightSymbol of Blades: 10s cooldown/?? DPS (6 ticks)/ FurySymbol of Energy: 15s cooldown/ ?? DPS/ VigorSymbol of Vengeance: 8s cooldown/~2300 (5 ticks)/ conditionsSymbol of Protection (with propose changes): 5s cooldown/~1000 DPS (3 ticks)/ Protection

So assuming a version of my original idea of a 2s symbol on the first AA with a 5s internal cooldown, would it be OP compared to other symbols? I don't think so. 5s is quick, but close to Punishment, Faith, Vengeance and Blades in your ability to use it. Keep in mind that the duration of the symbol would only be 2s compared to the 4s duration of every other symbol. Also the damage would be potentially much lower than all the other symbols to balance out the gain in damage from a faster AA chain.

On a side note WTH is with Symbol of Energy, why is its cooldown so long? 15s for moderate damage and Vigor is oldschool symbol design.

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

  • Hammer 2: Yeah, MB is in a pretty good spot right now, however one big issue is that it's a mobility loss compared to just running in a straight line. While hammer does not need to be a mobile weapon, it shouldn't detract from mobility which it already does with Ring of Warding. I say increase MB's range to 450 but keep the same cast time/aftercast.

This sounds like a great suggestion.

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

  • Hammer 3: I think just decreasing cast time would accomplish your goal. 0.5s cast time is fair considering this skill is a dps loss, generally only hits 1-3 targets and the immobilize isn't really that generous.

The .5s would help, but I still take issue with the skill's design in general because it is restrictively balance around a lot of parameters that don't really effect its usage. For example its ability to hit 5 targets standing in a line isn't helpful in any game-modes. A 5-target immobilize is worthless in PVE, very weak in sPVP where groups are usually 3 people max and usually spread out, and okay in WvW zergs, but in all honesty most organized zergs are coated in stability so ZE doesn't do much. Also the 1200 distance ... why? You can't hit 90% of people that far away unless the are running in a straight line non-stop and even if you get them you can't travel 1200 in the 2s the immobilize last. That's why I'm more in favor around a single target immbolized or AOE cripple, because they can be better balanced at fulfilling their job.

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

  • Hammer 4: Your suggestion completely changes the functionality. I like it the way it is now, but it could definitely use a faster cast time (0.75s) and perhaps bump the skill up to 3 targets instead of 1.

True, but it doesn't hurt any of the original functionality. You still have a launch which is 90% use to knock people away from rezzes, but now you also have a gap closer. Some sort of gap closer is critical in my opinion because it frees up the hammers reliance on utilities and other weapons to get close to people.

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

  • Glacial Heart: People often complain about core guard's burst and I think a change to Glacial Heart that Vallun suggested is appropriate: Increase chill duration, remove the RNG (make it 100% chance on crit) decrease damage and lower the icd down to 5s. This would make the focus of the trait more on chilling opponents and helping us stay on them rather than piling more damage on to a burst.

Vallun's changes would completely fix the problems with hammer in PVP, but my problem with GH is that it only benefits PVP. 20% cooldown reduction only helps the CC skills since MB already has a very fast cooldown, and chill doesn't have much PVE potential. My opinion is that if the hammer is ever going to have some PVE potential it needs to pick up damage variety somewhere. It can either gain that variety in skill changes like a redesign of Zealot's Embrace, or it needs to pick it up in Glacial Heart.

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Biggest and best thing you could do for Hammer AA is make it quicker iin execution on all steps. It's just too slow regardless of game mode. Beyond that, what needs to be added to the third part of the chain is an inward pull toward the center of the impact as Symbol of protection activates -similar to the Mesmer's 'Into The Void' or Holo's Prismatic Singularity so that from there the Guardian is free to follow up with any of the two through five skills which are solid right now.

On any other profession I'd say yes these changes have the potential to be overdone, given guardian's extremely lacking health pool in all but the tankiest setups(going full Berserker's is near eleven or less thousand health? Marauder's with similar jewelry/acc not much better)- which won't be doing much damage at all, it's an invitation to be one hit by every other other prof out there. There should be a better payoff for Guardians dumb brave enough to wade into the middle of things with a hammer these days beyond a symbol anybody who isn't crippled or blind will easily walk out of.

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@Indure.5410 said:

Does it have potential for abuse and is it OP?

Symbol of Wrath: 20s cooldown/~2880 DPS (5 ticks)/ RetaliationSymbol of Swiftness: 15s cooldown/~2145 DPS (5 ticks)/ SwiftnessSymbol of Faith: 8s cooldown/~1955 DPS (5 ticks)/ RegenSymbol of Punishment: 6s cooldown/~391 DPS (some amount of ticks)/ MightSymbol of Blades: 10s cooldown/?? DPS (6 ticks)/ FurySymbol of Energy: 15s cooldown/ ?? DPS/ VigorSymbol of Vengeance: 8s cooldown/~2300 (5 ticks)/ conditionsSymbol of Protection (with propose changes): 5s cooldown/~1000 DPS (3 ticks)/ Protection

So assuming a version of my original idea of a 2s symbol on the first AA with a 5s internal cooldown, would it be OP compared to other symbols? I don't think so. 5s is quick, but close to Punishment, Faith, Vengeance and Blades in your ability to use it. Keep in mind that the duration of the symbol would only be 2s compared to the 4s duration of every other symbol. Also the damage would be potentially much lower than all the other symbols to balance out the gain in damage from a faster AA chain.

On a side note WTH is with Symbol of Energy, why is its cooldown so long? 15s for moderate damage and Vigor is oldschool symbol design.

What I meant is that a guardian not currently striking anything with their hammer could spam hammer 1 to give themself perma protection. Since the symbol is attached to the first attack, the second two attacks won't activate meaning you could spam the symbol on nothing just to give yourself protection. It's (arguably) on the overpowered side if you ask me.

  • Hammer 3: I think just decreasing cast time would accomplish your goal. 0.5s cast time is fair considering this skill is a dps loss, generally only hits 1-3 targets and the immobilize isn't really that generous.

The .5s would help, but I still take issue with the skill's design in general because it is restrictively balance around a lot of parameters that don't really effect its usage. For example its ability to hit 5 targets standing in a line isn't helpful in any game-modes. A 5-target immobilize is worthless in PVE, very weak in sPVP where groups are usually 3 people max and usually spread out, and okay in WvW zergs, but in all honesty most organized zergs are coated in stability so ZE doesn't do much. Also the 1200 distance ... why? You can't hit 90% of people that far away unless the are running in a straight line non-stop and even if you get them you can't travel 1200 in the 2s the immobilize last. That's why I'm more in favor around a single target immbolized or AOE cripple, because they can be better balanced at fulfilling their job.

I don't think a single-target immob is very much in line with what they want with hammer. Honestly though from a pvp standpoint if they changed ZE to a reliable, single target immob I'd love it. I think based on its original concept, just decreasing cast time to 0.5s and further increasing projectile speed should be sufficient to make it more reliable. They could also widen the immob hitbox (maybe shortening the range to 900 for balance purposes) so that it could actually hit 5 targets and perhaps make it ground-targeted. I just don't think Anet changing the entire functionality of this skill is likely but I could be wrong, I mean look what they did with focus 4 and staff 1 and 2!

  • Hammer 4: Your suggestion completely changes the functionality. I like it the way it is now, but it could definitely use a faster cast time (0.75s) and perhaps bump the skill up to 3 targets instead of 1.

True, but it doesn't hurt any of the original functionality. You still have a launch which is 90% use to knock people away from rezzes, but now you also have a gap closer. Some sort of gap closer is critical in my opinion because it frees up the hammers reliance on utilities and other weapons to get close to people.

Ah, I interpreted your change as the launch being scrapped in favor of a different CC with the mobility being added. If banish involved mobility followed up by the original 750 punt (with the mobility portion occupying the 1s cast time of it), then that's a strict improvement. I love it!

  • Glacial Heart: People often complain about core guard's burst and I think a change to Glacial Heart that Vallun suggested is appropriate: Increase chill duration, remove the RNG (make it 100% chance on crit) decrease damage and lower the icd down to 5s. This would make the focus of the trait more on chilling opponents and helping us stay on them rather than piling more damage on to a burst.

Vallun's changes would completely fix the problems with hammer in PVP, but my problem with GH is that it only benefits PVP. 20% cooldown reduction only helps the CC skills since MB already has a very fast cooldown, and chill doesn't have much PVE potential. My opinion is that if the hammer is ever going to have some PVE potential it needs to pick up damage variety somewhere. It can either gain that variety in skill changes like a redesign of Zealot's Embrace, or it needs to pick it up in Glacial Heart.

It's a pvp-oriented trait through and through. If hammer (baseline) was buffed to the point of being a dps meta pick in pve, people would take Zeal, Radiance and even Honor over Virtues since all three of those lines do more for hammer's damage than glacial heart does. If glacial heart was somehow reworked or buffed to the point that it could actually contend with any of the traits in those lines for boosting hammer's dps, I fear it would be very overpowered one way or another in pvp/wvw.

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A simple AA change isn't going to fix hammer. Maybe Anet thought they were being clever attaching the symbol to it, but it was a bad move; it took away choice from the player in doing so. At a minimum, the symbol needs to be moved from AA. That means it needs to be put on something else. Those something elses already have quite full bandwidth IMO.

I personally don't mind the symbol on AA but I do see the negative implications it has to group play. #5 sucks ... that's what I would rework.

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@Obtena.7952 said:A simple AA change isn't going to fix hammer. Maybe Anet thought they were being clever attaching the symbol to it, but it was a bad move; it took away choice from the player in doing so. At a minimum, the symbol needs to be moved from AA. That means it needs to be put on something else. Those something elses already have quite full bandwidth IMO.

I personally don't mind the symbol on AA but I do see the negative implications it has to group play. #5 sucks ... that's what I would rework.

I've heard this suggested a number of times. While I agree with it, really not sure where the symbol could be stuck unless they reworked #3 or #4 entirely.

Some have suggested have it be attached to Mighty Blow, but then we'd lose a blast finisher on 5s cooldown unless another ability was reworked to compensate... but may as well just stick the symbol on that reworked ability.

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Changing to lesser symbol of wrath could be better - more retal sources thus more retal uptime in practice for that 50% crit chanceon top of that increase symbol time and hammer speed by a shade.

end result is a hammer that has reliable symbol uptime, then trait for quickness and extra couple of seconds to kick into maximum overdrive. the best part is that the symbols arent free, because the hammer actually has to be hitting you to place the symbols, meaning in spvp there wont be complete undeniable point coverage. Also could help make scourge area denial less of a pain due to all the light fields, making for good condi cleanse for both self and teamates.

With all the symbols, should also help to bring hammer up to pve dps standards.

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Sure, it's improved, but I don't see why it would be done. It's not clear what problem is solved by changing symbol to proc retal. It seems to me that the reason hammer isn't the front runner DPS weapon is because that's not it's intention to begin with. Just look at the skills it has. Even Glacial hints at hammer's role as a weapon ... it's not high DPS, it's about control and lockdown.

I guess the question is: is there a place for a weapon that has the configuration of skills that hammer does? I have no doubt there is so I think proposals that move away from that role are met with skeptical sucking teeth and squinty eyeball looks. It's a hard sell to push hammer DPS increases to the point of 'bringing it up to PVE DPS standards' ... whatever that is.

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@Obtena.7952 said:Sure, it's improved, but I don't see why it would be done. It's not clear what problem is solved by changing symbol to proc retal. It seems to me that the reason hammer isn't the front runner DPS weapon is because that's not it's intention to begin with. Just look at the skills it has. Even Glacial hints at hammer's role as a weapon ... it's not high DPS, it's about control and lockdown.

I guess the question is: is there a place for a weapon that has the configuration of skills that hammer does? I have no doubt there is so I think proposals that move away from that role are met with skeptical sucking teeth and squinty eyeball looks. It's a hard sell to push hammer DPS increases to the point of 'bringing it up to PVE DPS standards' ... whatever that is.

The problem is the one proposed at the very beginning of this thread. The goal is to make hammer something more than a quick switch to use occasionally before going back to axe/focus whatever. No one uses the hammer in pve because lets face it in pve deeps matter. Even If you're going support in pve, you're not using hammer. Best case scenario you have it in the other slot to do some breakbar damage before going back. In pvp, hammer is used similarly as an opener or special scenario plug. By allowing hammer to be a real damage option, it can be a mainhand weapon. Im not saying we havent explored every option, I was originally proposing we add control to the AA, although I tend to agree that a lot of hard CC effects could end up OP. if you've got an idea, share by all means.

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