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Gondolph.7201
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Thieves ruin WvW
Gondolph.7201
Member ✭✭
in WvW
currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.
So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.
that is no fun anymore.
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my suggestion on this.
Thieves should loose %s of hiding time inside wvw buildings over time. After , say, 20 minutes their hiding time should continuously decrease. Just to give them some balance.
Rather than adding a new usurping mechanic, why not just give stealth traps a reveal that is unique from player reveals?
Which is...technically a new usurping mechanic, but w/e q_q
In reality there is a Revealed timer after a cap. This should apply to all classes where you cannot stealth while you have the debuff. But hey, we're talking WvW here.
Playing the PvE scene because WvW is just "BAD"...
Not going to say it's not annoying, but if you want to get them just wait till they try to cap, they can't perma stealth and cap. Put a golem at lords, trust me it helps. If you're going to be there you might as well chuck a couple of golems in lords for good measure, they cannot one shot you inside one and they have to reveal themselves to kill the lord as well. You will only lose sm to them if they are ignored at lords.
How about making a “invisible dimension” such that if you are also invisible then you can see the other invisible players in the same dimension?
I still say that Thieves should have 2 modes. Stealth/Mobility mode where they can run around without being seen and scout but not attack. Attack mode where they can attack and have some mobility but no Stealth.
I like that idea! It kind of solves both problems. I dont mind the ability to move stealthy and quickly, due to their lower HP. But once they attack, they better commit to the attack and not be able to engage/disengage so quickly/easily. Right now it feels like no risk for them to attack, because once they start to lose its just run away, regen health and come back to try again.
When we were playing on Desert borderland we had constantly problems with Deadeyes in the keeps. Their goal wasn't even capping half the time, but keeping the keep tagged, killing players who let their guard down, destroying siege and so on. And if you didn't pay enough attention they would try to cap. Those lords go down faster than you think, and who'd expect someone to cap a keep while no wall or gate is damaged or down, especially if the thief has been in the keep for quite a while already without popping up.
My suggestion, as I already wrote in another thread some time ago, would be to make each application of stealth last for a shorter amount of time and when you are visible the timer regenrates again. That way permanent stealth is impossible but stealth still stays a powerful tool in fights - while also forcing the thief to end a fight if the only thing he can do in that fight is "stealth-attack-stealth-attack-..." over a very long time.
Overall though I feel like the class is broken in WvW. It doesn't add much to teamplay, is used in a very trollish manner due to the stealth and impossibility to catch, and is able to instant-kill out of nowhere. In zergs it is at best useful to take out enemy casters - though usually I'd say any proper zerg class is much more helpful to the team - and in roaming it is simply not fun or worthwhile to fight, because any decent thief can always get away, turning every fight into "you die, or the thief realizes he can't kill you and flees".
(Though I must say... that last time I encountered a deadeye while roaming, he really didn't expect the fight to go the way it did, I assume ... killing one of those pests in under ten seconds by stunlocking him is just a thing of pure beauty.)
that or just decrease thief damage by 90%.
High risk, high reward, low risk, low reward. Thieves take no risks, so thery should get no reward.
This is why after every cap, we make sure to clear out all the dots before the timer goes off. This is what happens when the comm just leaves after a cap. You have to be responsible to make sure no enemies are left on inner. If comm doesn't care to do these things they deem aren't a problem, it can become one and it's not the thief/whatever is left insides fault. On the other hand, if the thief can't be useful in any way to a zerg, this is a good example of something they could do.
Just roll a DE, solo a raid boss, expect nerf incoming within 24hrs.
Yeah nerf deadeyes so we can nurture castles again!!
Incoming deadeye/thief defenders...
Simple fix, spotted also apply revealed. That way no stealth class can hide for long inside after cap.
Anet could probably fix it with a couple of minutes worth of coding.
But we're probably not gonna see that happening. Pun intended.
Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.
Perma stealth, or near enough, should not be allowed imo. Stealth is a really unfun mechanic to play against, there was a DE camping outside spawn and insta killing zerglings trying to rejoin, just when you think he left he was hiding in stealth all along. Either nerf stealth or the ability to deal near fatal damage immediately from stealth (aka backstab).
Oh stop it... in this power creep meta of AOE CC and Ebola you want to ground most innocent class ever. If zerg cant catch a thief in castle when it's zerg problem. There were times when there were no 5min timer. Mesmers used to hide in keeps. That was fun times. Roamers and scouts had some extra work chasing them.
while i dont see a single deadeye an issue in a keep, a group of 3 is. but that is mainly because what the defenders have to do to avoid ressurecting is too much. currently when your full dead every time you get rezzed 1 tick the timer resets to 5 min (it wont show on the actual timer but it does reset, timer stops at 0 and no port then). so the defenders have to make sure no other can come to the target out of combat for 5 minutes. they need to spread AoEs wide and even then the deadeye might shadowstep during an evade on the corpse to rez and only needs 1 tick for another 5 minutes. in such a situation the ressing deadeye is usually not fighting so can adjust his build completely for that. i usually take both defensive lines then SA + Acro and a shadow trap(+nomad gear with mercy runes). place that trap far away, start rezzing when the zerg hits me at 50% my instant reflexes trigger to cover my 'destroy shadow trap' teleport into out of combat thats pretty safe and if i have 5 mins after each tick, then you need ALOT to prevent me rezzing.
for all i care full downed could be ported to spawn right away but so you can rez people after fall damage maybe reduce the timer to 1 minute and instead of it resetting each tick make it so it pause during rez, this should remove the rezzing of each other so you can gank one after the other.
another option if you want to keep it 5 min: no timer reset and being able to damage the full downed back to 0%.
I've already brought this subject of the Stealth Trap up on the forums. I don't think they should be revealed during the time after the cap. They should just be subject to the Stealth Trap reveal normally after it is tripped. Plus I've talked to a Dev about it. We'll see what happens in the future.
Henge of Denravi Commander
CA/CH/HOD/AIR
Love the idea of no rezz reset of the down timer. And the idea of instant spawn port after dying is probably a good idea too.
Henge of Denravi Commander
CA/CH/HOD/AIR
GW2 I like to call it Ghost Thief 2.0: Thermal-nuclear alpha War 2.
Apparently one/four-shots (under spammable new target Quickness boon) is OK from invisibility from a game balance standpoint. In as little as 0.6s time to react not including lag, you should know that a DE will attack you while you are engaged with any other activity (taking a camp, sentry, running seige, standing on a point for capture, running from point A to B, etc.) You aren't safe even in your own towers/keeps because a DE may be inside so don't afk.
In all seriousness, Thief does not ruin WvW. Deadeye ruins WvW.
Maybe,just maybe people run on specs like this because as you describe you're a Zerg trying to get 3 people.If they wouldnt have run stealth,you would chase those 3 people down with your Zerg untill those 3 people are dead and jump happily away.But now youre so unhappy after you failing as a Zerg to get 3 people you feel the need to complain about it on the forum because its not easy enough for a ZERG to kill 3 people.
Tell your warriors to run "On my Mark" it has multiple charges and if they Shadow Meld to remove the reveal you can simply use it again until they run out. Most of these issues could be prevented if people were a bit smarter about what they are doing. Thieves that hide can often make use of things like line of sight, a concept 5 levels above what the average WvW player could ever grasp
I rather choose death.
Yep. A Couple of warriors running On My Mark , used in conjunction with a tight knit group (ie rotating the use of the skill and having ranged users ready to fire on reveal or people with ports to port to target) will see most DE's die or flee.
A lot of this gets back to people not wanting to trait Utilities that do not just add more to damage. When the very first reveals released there were all manner of complaints about stealth. There are always complaints about stealth and this BEFORE smeld yet man did not trait those reveals. The excuse used then was "There are better skills to use then reveal as the reveals take away from my damage".
Sight beyond sight is air reveal on spell breaker.
Yes! We can call it super-reveal. And then deadeye can get a new elite skill that counters super-reveal and applies super-stealth. Then we can get a new trap that removes super-stealth and applies super-mega-reveal. And then deadeye can get a new trait that counters super-mega-reveal and applies ULTIMATE STEALTH, which removes them from sight and prevents them from interacting with other players until anet figures out how to make stealth counterplay work.
Sacrificing a utility JUST for thieves is insane imo.
That's the problem though, if it was after a cap, it would not be as problematic. This mainly happened when we were defending a keep and outer and/or inner walls were down before the enemies could be beaten back. Especially on Stoic Rampart the walls go down so quickly at times, getting the defense in there usually means you're taking the enemy blob out at the golem.
And at that point you won't find Deadeyes anymore, especially not with all the hiding places around.
I do remember - this was quite a few updates ago though - that Baruch really loved to have a thief + mesmer duo around which would pretty much be perma stealthed until the defenders left. They were constantly doing that at bay one time, back when I was on Drakkar/Miller. Also quite nasty, but I'm uncertain whether that is even possible anymore.
It's also a very bad thing, that some classes, like Ele, have no way to fight stealth at all. If at least every class had a reliable reveal, it'd be a bit better, still doesn't fix the problem of perma stealth though.
And no, Anti-Stealth Traps are not a substitude for not having a skill that reveals. They cost supplies, badges and coins, take time to set up and don't really help anyway. Besides, in my opinion these traps should be reworked to not just remove stealth and reveal, but to also mark enemy players on the map, like sentries and towers do.
Or you can swap a utility or two specifically to clear out a keep or tower. You know, because you can leave the tower and the DE can’t without losing opportunity to take the tower. Swap back when you finish.
For that matter, bring a couple of revive traits/utilities and power resurrect the lord while one or two other stand guard. Set up healing around lord along with stealth to prevent the DE from targeting the lord. Or set up a reflect rotation around the lord with additional traps.
Basically, you need only one or two other players to help lock down the lord. Area control abilities and support will prevent most issues as long as you play it smart. Your entire Zerg is a bad idea. Players get careless and those left behind are easily ganked. A coordinated team of Druid/Ranger, DH/FB and Scrapper should be more than enough to handle a few DE.
Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
Deadeye (Thief)
Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator
Most DE builds are so dependent on Stealth, even just for a few seconds, that they are required to use Shadow Meld as their elite in case of Reveal.
Sacrificing an ELITE just to play the profession is insane imo.
Fort Aspenwood
Jekkies
Are you suggesting not being able to attack at all when in stealth/mobility mode or just not being able to hit as hard or be as aggressive? Either way that's not a good idea regardless but I just wanted to know what you mean by that because that sounds like such a sweeping change you're suggesting, with no alternative class mechanic, or you're actually piling on advantages towards the thief since they'd of course have another unique combat mechanic to take the place of stealth. An easier answer to stealth abuse would be to walk back some changes like dodge to stealth until it's manageable again.
Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]
Here's one. I won;t speak to the player against player aspect, but there does need to be a bigger incentive to nursing those objectives so that they have more/better guards. All too often guards are just a defacto source of world points and bags. Shouldn't be that way.
One possibility is to give keep and tower guards a pulsing reveal. When a wall or a door or a guard anywhere near a tower or keep is engaged -i.e. once the objective goes crossed swords- guards should be shifted to Alert mode. This would widen their detection radius by fifty or more percent and any character in stealth who wanders too near to them will be immediately revealed. There needs to be a higher ceiling of difficulty for this sort of play, particularly for Mesmers hoping to hang out behind the walls to give their side a free shot at taking an objective via portals.
No. Stealth is a major part of thiefs defenses, along with their mobility. Remove it, and you'll have to compensate them. Which you probably wont like.
The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.
How about a skill that lets you see stealthed characters (or is there one already)? Just give 1 to every class, that way you don't have to cry about stealth getting nerfed.
Because every build should be countered by the current build you run ? Its like a warri saying Sacrificing a utility to use Endure pain or Berserk is insane,like kitten.
If you need to pick a utility to compete then you need to pick it.
A dead player does no damage. If you need something to compete you should take it.
Unless countering thief isn’t necessary to your success rate. In that case feel free to drop the anti-stealth traits and utilities. But don’t complain.
You picked versatility over specialization when you didn’t think it was important enough to build for.
It’s like being on a melee only build and complaining that a Ranger kited you to death.
Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
Deadeye (Thief)
Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator
Thieves still have Evades and Dodges. Not to mention if you use the right food you basically get an extra dodge out of it. Top that with Mobility and Thieves have plenty of defense outside of Stealth. Stealth should be used for scouting not attacking. Stealth is a stupid gimmick that is heavily abused.
They could fix this issue in a heartbeat by making stealth no longer stack duration. Now when it gets used a quick decision to either run and hide or fight has to be made. None of this standing right next to people in a keep for minutes before making their move, or moving across entire maps in stealth. Burst Houdini needs to trip and fall on a nerf bat.
If they are perma stealth then they do not have those vulnerabilities. Condi is cleared very easily by SE, Shadowstep and Blinding Powder can get them out of CC, and stealth is the ideal escape option.
DE has no more dodges than any other profession. Weapon sets that incorporate evades don't work with DE against competent opponents, especially without the added instant shadowstep from Steal. The only viable defense DE has outside of stealth is Rifle 4, and that's only against opponents with no ranged pressure and limited gap closers so...Warriors/Necromancers only?
How do you think a DE would fare in a melee-only, toe-to-toe, no-stealth battle against an Engi, Warrior, Guard, Rev, Necro, or Ranger (And even eles both FA and S/D brawlers)? It would lose every time in its current state. I get salt whispers all the time from the melee-professions after they get kited/outplayed - saying I am "abusing range" on my non-SA DE. These same people complaining wouldn't think twice about how laughably underpowered DE is without range or stealth....
Fort Aspenwood
Jekkies
Options:
choose one ore all of the above and apply patch.
Disciples of the monkey god [Apes]
This.
Just shows how badly they are designed for WvW.
In DAoC, the original WvW, stealth classes could spec to see other stealth classes. Higher spec, further vision. This would be a great thief mechanic imho.
A bad design because a DE is pigeon holed into an elite skill or for some other reason? Any suggestions for a replacement?
Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]
No, that would be a great mechanic for everyone else. It makes no sense to give the counter for a class to that same class.
Disciples of the monkey god [Apes]
Yeah, for the couple of minutes to smoke them out.. or refusing to do it and suffering even more. People really aren't smart
I rather choose death.
For that situation, for finding them in towers/keeps, then yes. I was talking more generally.
they need to remove the ability for them to stealth from anyone they have damaged
that way they can still stealth from everyone else but the person they tried to gank will be able to retalliate
The pointy end goes in the other man.
I think it's a wider issue than just DE but I do agree that sub-class is really, really poorly thought out.
Many of the strongest builds in small scale WvW are designed to be fun to play but (IMO) seemingly had very little thought put in as to what it is like to play against.
I main Mirage and play at an ok skill-level and I can honestly say that class is broken. But then I see a warrior in invun waiting to die from old age or a ranger ping 5k hits from "1500" away or engi's aoe or scourge/fb tanking 10 people. I'm sure everyone here could list a few more.
It feels frustrating to attempt to be competitive (accounting for rng sandbox) when these classes are seemingly designed without this in mind.
Alliances were announced on the 2nd of February 2018
Thieves are just an annoyance to an organized group. If you squirrel to a thief expect to get dumped on.
It means OP just needs a thief in the group to root out the other stealths. Makes perfect sense.