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  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:

    So you play Ele or Mesmer?

    80% core ele 20 % weaver and i have zero problems with any kind of thief ( or other classes )
    wanted only an answer what the " REAL " counter to stealth should be.

    Ele and Mesmer are the only ones without a skill or trait available inherently to reveal a player in stealth.

    Every other has one. Not that they are all useful...

    I play glass necro. I also do not have a problem playing against thief’s.

    I think though, you stated what the REAL counter to thief is.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2020

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Kronan.6712 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Kronan.6712 said:
    Hello everyone,

    And thank you for this thread @Gondolph.7201 :) It is just a personal point of view, but I do not completely agree about nerfing the thief. Before the "Unbalanced patch" of February 25, same a pretty bad Warrior was able to kill condi thiefs:

    And I am not sure that the Warrior is the best to clean condi.
    So, for me the issue come from the "Unbalanced patch".

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 rights, but not all the thiefs can play as XxkazuyaxXX the master of thieves.

    Didnt know Sindrender also went by XxkazuyaxXX

    Yes sorry @Bigpapasmurf.5623 master of thieves was really exaggerated.

    I currently run the condi rifle build (SB for getaways or to stun res's) however this gave me an idea. How do you think the build would be impacted if you used Binding Shadows over Blinding Powder?

    Swapped my SB for P/D and WOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Much Nastier.

    Yup. Condi DE with P/D built for torment duration is really quite nasty atm. Pretty fun to hunt condi mirages with it.

    -Title is misunderstood-
    take a look at this .....too painful to watch (see>NCsoft's Earnings Report as result)

    -this is the impact and effect Thief Profession has on potential-new players who enters wvw-tragic

    'you lose more often than you win'

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @hypehype.9047 said:
    I stopped crying on the fourms and just started to play the abused builds, being able to hit someone from 1500m with 7k damage and stealth is fun trolling.

    Please post your build(s). ;)

    https://www.gw2gh.com/ - A GW2-Guild-Hall.
    Register and check your guild leaderboard to see who is the best in your guild and who finished achievements first.

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tuna Bandit.3786 said:
    Tell me this: Does your Zerg leave a single roamer alone trying to capture a sentury? I doubt it, you likely will use the Massive power of the zerg to steamroll the poor roamer without him giving a fighting chance. Am I right? AM I?!?!?!

    But they are when they have to kill that single player, even if the player is retreating... that's not fighting that's slaughter... yet you see it constantly.

    Not all commanders/zergs act the same way.

    With the commanders and zergs, that I usually run with, it is the standard, that we do not chase single players/roamers and that we just ignore them and go around them and do not attack. And if some zerglings try to chase roamers, they are told by the commander and other players, not to do this. Unless of course, the roamers attack first and try to pick players from the zerg, then the zerg defends itself.

    https://www.gw2gh.com/ - A GW2-Guild-Hall.
    Register and check your guild leaderboard to see who is the best in your guild and who finished achievements first.

  • @Zok.4956 said:

    @hypehype.9047 said:
    I stopped crying on the fourms and just started to play the abused builds, being able to hit someone from 1500m with 7k damage and stealth is fun trolling.

    Please post your build(s). ;)

    lol nothing special.

    full zerk
    dead eye/critical strike and deadly arts.

    the key is to hit the enemy with dead eyes mark early so you can build malice go into stealth and hit your 1 attack to release death's judgment which is basically a back stab you can shoot from 1500m away.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2020

    @Zok.4956 said:

    @Tuna Bandit.3786 said:
    Tell me this: Does your Zerg leave a single roamer alone trying to capture a sentury? I doubt it, you likely will use the Massive power of the zerg to steamroll the poor roamer without him giving a fighting chance. Am I right? AM I?!?!?!

    But they are when they have to kill that single player, even if the player is retreating... that's not fighting that's slaughter... yet you see it constantly.

    Not all commanders/zergs act the same way.

    With the commanders and zergs, that I usually run with, it is the standard, that we do not chase single players/roamers and that we just ignore them and go around them and do not attack. And if some zerglings try to chase roamers, they are told by the commander and other players, not to do this. Unless of course, the roamers attack first and try to pick players from the zerg, then the zerg defends itself.

    True, most coms I know wont order guys to chase solo people, even if it's a camp if the com has other priorities, like an upgraded tower/keep how ever if that guy attempts to attack the backline then its game on. Coms know not to muck about with enemy roamers who are doing their own thing because they know if they do, them roamers will chase the zerg tail, and its normally 3-7+ people and not just 1. Zerg tail will soon be demolished and its normally necros and eles that's gone.

  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2020

    Redesign Theef:

    Theef can keep good stealth but under certain conditions:

    • Damage must not be burst type, but ramp up type. Nothing is more toxic than super burst stealth builds.
    • Theef cannot stealth for 4-5s after getting hit or hitting a target. They should not be able to freely engage, unload, disappear all over. When they commit, it must be a fight.
    • Above can only be broken by 1-2 cooldowns that allows stealth at anytime and doesn't do damage like cc abilities now.
    • All other forms of more reliable stealth should not be useable while in active combat.
    • Theef ways to avoidance, evade etc as well as mobility needs to get toned drastically down, not just a little bit. It is out of hand. I am not sure if it's just daredevil or what but they have SO much and other classes like mesmer got nerfed into the ground for having similar and now don't got kitten while theef immune for days and tralalaing.
    • Since thief has stealth and good evades, it should not be heavy on CC/Stability/Stunbreak (i have no clue if this is case).
  • Elmo Benchwarmer.3025Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    IMHO ruin is the wrong word but I can't help but feel that it is a geniuenly unfun profession to deal with: stealth, high evade uptime, teleportation, very few telegraphs, a resource system that allows multiple use of the same ability. It's basically everything you don't want to deal with (and yes I'm aware not every Thief build can do all of that at once, but the elements are there).

    That said, there's definitely a place for the profession archetype and even if it isn't my cup of tea I can see the appeal.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hypehype.9047 said:

    @Zok.4956 said:

    @hypehype.9047 said:
    I stopped crying on the fourms and just started to play the abused builds, being able to hit someone from 1500m with 7k damage and stealth is fun trolling.

    Please post your build(s). ;)

    lol nothing special.

    full zerk
    dead eye/critical strike and deadly arts.

    the key is to hit the enemy with dead eyes mark early so you can build malice go into stealth and hit your 1 attack to release death's judgment which is basically a back stab you can shoot from 1500m away.

    Q:Is it unblockable and in low CD??

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:
    Redesign Theef:

    Theef can keep good stealth but under certain conditions:

    • Damage must not be burst type, but ramp up type. Nothing is more toxic than super burst stealth builds.
    • Theef cannot stealth for 4-5s after getting hit or hitting a target. They should not be able to freely engage, unload, disappear all over. When they commit, it must be a fight.
    • Above can only be broken by 1-2 cooldowns that allows stealth at anytime and doesn't do damage like cc abilities now.
    • All other forms of more reliable stealth should not be useable while in active combat.
    • Theef ways to avoidance, evade etc as well as mobility needs to get toned drastically down, not just a little bit. It is out of hand. I am not sure if it's just daredevil or what but they have SO much and other classes like mesmer got nerfed into the ground for having similar and now don't got kitten while theef immune for days and tralalaing.
    • Since thief has stealth and good evades, it should not be heavy on CC/Stability/Stunbreak (i have no clue if this is case).

    So basically, make in-combat stealth not just useless but non-existent, but then also nerf thieves (already low) 1v1 capabilities in exchange for the stealth. That they cant use. What? I mean your suggestion basically boils down to "make thief so useless that picking it in any PvP gamemode should be reason enough for a ban". It also, ironically enough, fails to address the only problem there is with stealth. Out-of-combat stealth.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @hypehype.9047 said:

    @Zok.4956 said:

    @hypehype.9047 said:
    I stopped crying on the fourms and just started to play the abused builds, being able to hit someone from 1500m with 7k damage and stealth is fun trolling.

    Please post your build(s). ;)

    lol nothing special.

    full zerk
    dead eye/critical strike and deadly arts.

    the key is to hit the enemy with dead eyes mark early so you can build malice go into stealth and hit your 1 attack to release death's judgment which is basically a back stab you can shoot from 1500m away.

    Q:Is it unblockable and in low CD??

    DJ is not unblockable. And its a stealth attack, so you get to retry every 3 seconds normally, less if you burn a charge of Shadow Meld. But honestly, thats not worth it, because against a decent player, DJ never hits. Its basically irrelevant as anything other than a skill that says "remove 1 defensive resource from your opponent".

  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:
    Redesign Theef:

    Theef can keep good stealth but under certain conditions:

    • Damage must not be burst type, but ramp up type. Nothing is more toxic than super burst stealth builds.
    • Theef cannot stealth for 4-5s after getting hit or hitting a target. They should not be able to freely engage, unload, disappear all over. When they commit, it must be a fight.
    • Above can only be broken by 1-2 cooldowns that allows stealth at anytime and doesn't do damage like cc abilities now.
    • All other forms of more reliable stealth should not be useable while in active combat.
    • Theef ways to avoidance, evade etc as well as mobility needs to get toned drastically down, not just a little bit. It is out of hand. I am not sure if it's just daredevil or what but they have SO much and other classes like mesmer got nerfed into the ground for having similar and now don't got kitten while theef immune for days and tralalaing.
    • Since thief has stealth and good evades, it should not be heavy on CC/Stability/Stunbreak (i have no clue if this is case).

    So basically, make in-combat stealth not just useless but non-existent, but then also nerf thieves (already low) 1v1 capabilities in exchange for the stealth. That they cant use. What? I mean your suggestion basically boils down to "make thief so useless that picking it in any PvP gamemode should be reason enough for a ban". It also, ironically enough, fails to address the only problem there is with stealth. Out-of-combat stealth.

    Do you have a problem with any point, or do you just attempt to say "no don't nerf anything"?

    What is left after what i suggest is still a thief who got permastealth, only stealth can't just be applied during combat freely but like most other mmos out there needs a cooldown to activate when in combat. Extreme bursty is a not good design to fit on stealth because it becomes toxic, is that a point you got issue with?

    It follows logically that a class who should have above average avoidances + stealth, have to have at least not as good sum of cc, stability, stunbreak as other classes who does not have those tools.

    Also, i tell you now theef at least daredevil amount of evading and kitten is way out of line, other classes like mesmer got that nerfed several times over and over, you won't be able to come with your little "ohhhh no please no pleeeasse no we will be weak" arguments, you will pay the price eventually.

  • ArlAlt.1630ArlAlt.1630 Member ✭✭✭

    I think Daredevil should get 50 endurance as a trade off

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2020

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:
    Redesign Theef:

    Theef can keep good stealth but under certain conditions:

    • Damage must not be burst type, but ramp up type. Nothing is more toxic than super burst stealth builds.
    • Theef cannot stealth for 4-5s after getting hit or hitting a target. They should not be able to freely engage, unload, disappear all over. When they commit, it must be a fight.
    • Above can only be broken by 1-2 cooldowns that allows stealth at anytime and doesn't do damage like cc abilities now.
    • All other forms of more reliable stealth should not be useable while in active combat.
    • Theef ways to avoidance, evade etc as well as mobility needs to get toned drastically down, not just a little bit. It is out of hand. I am not sure if it's just daredevil or what but they have SO much and other classes like mesmer got nerfed into the ground for having similar and now don't got kitten while theef immune for days and tralalaing.
    • Since thief has stealth and good evades, it should not be heavy on CC/Stability/Stunbreak (i have no clue if this is case).

    So basically, make in-combat stealth not just useless but non-existent, but then also nerf thieves (already low) 1v1 capabilities in exchange for the stealth. That they cant use. What? I mean your suggestion basically boils down to "make thief so useless that picking it in any PvP gamemode should be reason enough for a ban". It also, ironically enough, fails to address the only problem there is with stealth. Out-of-combat stealth.

    Do you have a problem with any point, or do you just attempt to say "no don't nerf anything"?

    What is left after what i suggest is still a thief who got permastealth, only stealth can't just be applied during combat freely but like most other mmos out there needs a cooldown to activate when in combat. Extreme bursty is a not good design to fit on stealth because it becomes toxic, is that a point you got issue with?

    It follows logically that a class who should have above average avoidances + stealth, have to have at least not as good sum of cc, stability, stunbreak as other classes who does not have those tools.

    Also, i tell you now theef at least daredevil amount of evading and kitten is way out of line, other classes like mesmer got that nerfed several times over and over, you won't be able to come with your little "ohhhh no please no pleeeasse no we will be weak" arguments, you will pay the price eventually.

    I have a problem with all of your points because they are poorly thought out, to say the least.

    Permastealth is literally the only issue with stealth. In-combat stealth is already bad. There is a reason thieves avoid in-combat stealth like the plague, instead trying to drop out of stealth ASAP if theyre actively fighting someone. Out of combat stealth is whats a problem. Your suggestion to that is to leave out of combat stealth alone, and nerf in-combat stealth. Basically, youre removing thief as anything but a cheesy stealth oneshot build. When your goal should be to keep anything but the cheesy stealth oneshot builds.

    First of all, no point mentioning stealth here. Stealth is irrelevant to in-combat discussion, and that is all in-combat discussion. Second thief wishes it had above average avoidances. Maybe then it wouldnt be a class so bad at 1v1ing its defining characteristic is never picking a fair fight, and running away from the many fights they cant win. Thief also is worse at CC (Only DE has CC that lasts more than 1 second), stability (literally cant access stability other than by stealing it or from Consume Plasma) and stunbreaks (long cooldowns, and one of their only 2 good stunbreaks happens to also be one of their only 2 good condi cleanses, and the class struggles with condi as is).

    Yeah, so out of line that the best build doesnt even use Daredevil, and the only build that does, literally does so only to not lose instantly to condis. And yeah, Daredevils evading is totally out of line, what with their 1 extra dodge the entire fight while otherwise having no extra sources of dodge. And both of the weaponsets that have an additional evade skill effectively have 2 charges with a 10 second cooldown. That totally sounds out of line and not like something Warrior, Mesmer, Weaver, Firebrand, Scrapper, Revenant and Ranger can only laugh at.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2020

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:
    Redesign Theef:

    Theef can keep good stealth but under certain conditions:

    • Damage must not be burst type, but ramp up type. Nothing is more toxic than super burst stealth builds.
    • Theef cannot stealth for 4-5s after getting hit or hitting a target. They should not be able to freely engage, unload, disappear all over. When they commit, it must be a fight.
    • Above can only be broken by 1-2 cooldowns that allows stealth at anytime and doesn't do damage like cc abilities now.
    • All other forms of more reliable stealth should not be useable while in active combat.
    • Theef ways to avoidance, evade etc as well as mobility needs to get toned drastically down, not just a little bit. It is out of hand. I am not sure if it's just daredevil or what but they have SO much and other classes like mesmer got nerfed into the ground for having similar and now don't got kitten while theef immune for days and tralalaing.
    • Since thief has stealth and good evades, it should not be heavy on CC/Stability/Stunbreak (i have no clue if this is case).

    So basically, make in-combat stealth not just useless but non-existent, but then also nerf thieves (already low) 1v1 capabilities in exchange for the stealth. That they cant use. What? I mean your suggestion basically boils down to "make thief so useless that picking it in any PvP gamemode should be reason enough for a ban". It also, ironically enough, fails to address the only problem there is with stealth. Out-of-combat stealth.

    Do you have a problem with any point, or do you just attempt to say "no don't nerf anything"?

    What is left after what i suggest is still a thief who got permastealth, only stealth can't just be applied during combat freely but like most other mmos out there needs a cooldown to activate when in combat. Extreme bursty is a not good design to fit on stealth because it becomes toxic, is that a point you got issue with?

    It follows logically that a class who should have above average avoidances + stealth, have to have at least not as good sum of cc, stability, stunbreak as other classes who does not have those tools.

    Also, i tell you now theef at least daredevil amount of evading and kitten is way out of line, other classes like mesmer got that nerfed several times over and over, you won't be able to come with your little "ohhhh no please no pleeeasse no we will be weak" arguments, you will pay the price eventually.

    We'd be playing most other mmos out there if that's what we wanted.

    A lot of stealth doesn't equate to "permastealth", it just means using a stealth attack, which has to be used a lot because they just don't hit all that hard for a signature skill. You could have just suggested putting a cap on all types of stealth stack duration in combat to about 4 seconds, but you're suggesting keeping "permastealth" to allow easy Malicious backstabs instead of active engaged short duration stealth for Stealth Attacks that are either weak or predicted by position and duration.

    I'm confused, are you advocating for or against the thief class? People in thief forums aren't very stealth heavy to being with and would prefer an engaged fight over running around in stealth not doing anything, maybe ask this question in the thief forum and get some feedback and maybe they can get a better understanding of what you're suggesting.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:
    Redesign Theef:

    Theef can keep good stealth but under certain conditions:

    • Damage must not be burst type, but ramp up type. Nothing is more toxic than super burst stealth builds.
    • Theef cannot stealth for 4-5s after getting hit or hitting a target. They should not be able to freely engage, unload, disappear all over. When they commit, it must be a fight.
    • Above can only be broken by 1-2 cooldowns that allows stealth at anytime and doesn't do damage like cc abilities now.
    • All other forms of more reliable stealth should not be useable while in active combat.
    • Theef ways to avoidance, evade etc as well as mobility needs to get toned drastically down, not just a little bit. It is out of hand. I am not sure if it's just daredevil or what but they have SO much and other classes like mesmer got nerfed into the ground for having similar and now don't got kitten while theef immune for days and tralalaing.
    • Since thief has stealth and good evades, it should not be heavy on CC/Stability/Stunbreak (i have no clue if this is case).

    So basically, make in-combat stealth not just useless but non-existent, but then also nerf thieves (already low) 1v1 capabilities in exchange for the stealth. That they cant use. What? I mean your suggestion basically boils down to "make thief so useless that picking it in any PvP gamemode should be reason enough for a ban". It also, ironically enough, fails to address the only problem there is with stealth. Out-of-combat stealth.

    Do you have a problem with any point, or do you just attempt to say "no don't nerf anything"?

    What is left after what i suggest is still a thief who got permastealth, only stealth can't just be applied during combat freely but like most other mmos out there needs a cooldown to activate when in combat. Extreme bursty is a not good design to fit on stealth because it becomes toxic, is that a point you got issue with?

    It follows logically that a class who should have above average avoidances + stealth, have to have at least not as good sum of cc, stability, stunbreak as other classes who does not have those tools.

    Also, i tell you now theef at least daredevil amount of evading and kitten is way out of line, other classes like mesmer got that nerfed several times over and over, you won't be able to come with your little "ohhhh no please no pleeeasse no we will be weak" arguments, you will pay the price eventually.

    I have a problem with all of your points because they are poorly thought out, to say the least.

    Permastealth is literally the only issue with stealth. In-combat stealth is already bad. There is a reason thieves avoid in-combat stealth like the plague, instead trying to drop out of stealth ASAP if theyre actively fighting someone. Out of combat stealth is whats a problem. Your suggestion to that is to leave out of combat stealth alone, and nerf in-combat stealth. Basically, youre removing thief as anything but a cheesy stealth oneshot build. When your goal should be to keep anything but the cheesy stealth oneshot builds.

    First of all, no point mentioning stealth here. Stealth is irrelevant to in-combat discussion, and that is all in-combat discussion. Second thief wishes it had above average avoidances. Maybe then it wouldnt be a class so bad at 1v1ing its defining characteristic is never picking a fair fight, and running away from the many fights they cant win. Thief also is worse at CC (Only DE has CC that lasts more than 1 second), stability (literally cant access stability other than by stealing it or from Consume Plasma) and stunbreaks (long cooldowns, and one of their only 2 good stunbreaks happens to also be one of their only 2 good condi cleanses, and the class struggles with condi as is).

    Yeah, so out of line that the best build doesnt even use Daredevil, and the only build that does, literally does so only to not lose instantly to condis. And yeah, Daredevils evading is totally out of line, what with their 1 extra dodge the entire fight while otherwise having no extra sources of dodge. And both of the weaponsets that have an additional evade skill effectively have 2 charges with a 10 second cooldown. That totally sounds out of line and not like something Warrior, Mesmer, Weaver, Firebrand, Scrapper, Revenant and Ranger can only laugh at.

    Did you just try to shove it all under the rug and making the 3 dodge devil as to be an irrelevant evader? And claim this is only way against condis? Try playing others classes man really. Other classes got their advantages nerfed down and down, and theef still got absolutely insane away to stay safe., disengage and spamable mobility. They can just outrun you even if you are using teleport(s) and speed runes with their default. They will take nerfs in the long run mark my words. Let's say you are right, and it's the only way to deal with condis(what a kitten misdirection from the truth that evades are insane), then they should still nerf the evasion and give a meaningful way to coutner condis.

    And what are you trying to say about stability etc? I said it should be so but that i didn't know if it was already so. It is so? good, but you make 0 point there.

    Other games have shown, permastealth out of combat is okay. The reason i don't suggest to remove it is because i want theef to have something it can do, to be different in a way. Not to be more of the same. You can say a theef should be weaker in a fight than other classes, because it has the power of being able to choose exactly when to engage and without that it will not be balanced. This is logical fact. You want them to have both stealth plus equal to others in combat? Now it's unfair, fight just as well but can walk around invisible. Theef has to pick the right fights, engage at the right time this is how to use its class strengths - how it gains the upper hand from a initial slight disadvantage. Choose starting location, positioning, terrain, +1, etc. It should be just slightly weaker, not much and so little that player skill means far more than the small difference. Or to play from range and be a pestilence and run away when someone focus it. Stealth classes are like that, they are nasty as hell when they use tactics and intelligence, but when focused they crumble. As it should be.

    Oh you don't like where this is going huh? coz you theefs dont wanna face up to logical consequences. I'm just reading your biased post again huh i particularly liked how u try to claim insane advantages are steamrolled by and then list every class. Classic theef move. "Ohh loook we can't do anything to anyone we are soooo weak puny puny ones please no touch us at all". Meanwhile 1shotting from stealth type players and evading 8-10 man groups for 8-10 seconds without taking damage or flying across the screen. Yea, last patch but you theefs are still the same mentality. Try playing others classes, see how they get nerfed down for all their strengths.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:
    Redesign Theef:

    Theef can keep good stealth but under certain conditions:

    • Damage must not be burst type, but ramp up type. Nothing is more toxic than super burst stealth builds.
    • Theef cannot stealth for 4-5s after getting hit or hitting a target. They should not be able to freely engage, unload, disappear all over. When they commit, it must be a fight.
    • Above can only be broken by 1-2 cooldowns that allows stealth at anytime and doesn't do damage like cc abilities now.
    • All other forms of more reliable stealth should not be useable while in active combat.
    • Theef ways to avoidance, evade etc as well as mobility needs to get toned drastically down, not just a little bit. It is out of hand. I am not sure if it's just daredevil or what but they have SO much and other classes like mesmer got nerfed into the ground for having similar and now don't got kitten while theef immune for days and tralalaing.
    • Since thief has stealth and good evades, it should not be heavy on CC/Stability/Stunbreak (i have no clue if this is case).

    So basically, make in-combat stealth not just useless but non-existent, but then also nerf thieves (already low) 1v1 capabilities in exchange for the stealth. That they cant use. What? I mean your suggestion basically boils down to "make thief so useless that picking it in any PvP gamemode should be reason enough for a ban". It also, ironically enough, fails to address the only problem there is with stealth. Out-of-combat stealth.

    Do you have a problem with any point, or do you just attempt to say "no don't nerf anything"?

    What is left after what i suggest is still a thief who got permastealth, only stealth can't just be applied during combat freely but like most other mmos out there needs a cooldown to activate when in combat. Extreme bursty is a not good design to fit on stealth because it becomes toxic, is that a point you got issue with?

    It follows logically that a class who should have above average avoidances + stealth, have to have at least not as good sum of cc, stability, stunbreak as other classes who does not have those tools.

    Also, i tell you now theef at least daredevil amount of evading and kitten is way out of line, other classes like mesmer got that nerfed several times over and over, you won't be able to come with your little "ohhhh no please no pleeeasse no we will be weak" arguments, you will pay the price eventually.

    I have a problem with all of your points because they are poorly thought out, to say the least.

    Permastealth is literally the only issue with stealth. In-combat stealth is already bad. There is a reason thieves avoid in-combat stealth like the plague, instead trying to drop out of stealth ASAP if theyre actively fighting someone. Out of combat stealth is whats a problem. Your suggestion to that is to leave out of combat stealth alone, and nerf in-combat stealth. Basically, youre removing thief as anything but a cheesy stealth oneshot build. When your goal should be to keep anything but the cheesy stealth oneshot builds.

    First of all, no point mentioning stealth here. Stealth is irrelevant to in-combat discussion, and that is all in-combat discussion. Second thief wishes it had above average avoidances. Maybe then it wouldnt be a class so bad at 1v1ing its defining characteristic is never picking a fair fight, and running away from the many fights they cant win. Thief also is worse at CC (Only DE has CC that lasts more than 1 second), stability (literally cant access stability other than by stealing it or from Consume Plasma) and stunbreaks (long cooldowns, and one of their only 2 good stunbreaks happens to also be one of their only 2 good condi cleanses, and the class struggles with condi as is).

    Yeah, so out of line that the best build doesnt even use Daredevil, and the only build that does, literally does so only to not lose instantly to condis. And yeah, Daredevils evading is totally out of line, what with their 1 extra dodge the entire fight while otherwise having no extra sources of dodge. And both of the weaponsets that have an additional evade skill effectively have 2 charges with a 10 second cooldown. That totally sounds out of line and not like something Warrior, Mesmer, Weaver, Firebrand, Scrapper, Revenant and Ranger can only laugh at.

    Did you just try to shove it all under the rug and making the 3 dodge devil as to be an irrelevant evader? And claim this is only way against condis? Try playing others classes man really. Other classes got their advantages nerfed down and down, and theef still got absolutely insane away to stay safe., disengage and spamable mobility. They can just outrun you even if you are using teleport(s) and speed runes with their default. They will take nerfs in the long run mark my words. Let's say you are right, and it's the only way to deal with condis(what a kitten misdirection from the truth that evades are insane), then they should still nerf the evasion and give a meaningful way to coutner condis.

    And what are you trying to say about stability etc? I said it should be so but that i didn't know if it was already so. It is so? good, but you make 0 point there.

    Other games have shown, permastealth out of combat is okay. The reason i don't suggest to remove it is because i want theef to have something it can do, to be different in a way. Not to be more of the same. You can say a theef should be weaker in a fight than other classes, because it has the power of being able to choose exactly when to engage and without that it will not be balanced. This is logical fact. You want them to have both stealth plus equal to others in combat? Now it's unfair, fight just as well but can walk around invisible. Theef has to pick the right fights, engage at the right time this is how to use its class strengths - how it gains the upper hand from a initial slight disadvantage. Choose starting location, positioning, terrain, +1, etc. It should be just slightly weaker, not much and so little that player skill means far more than the small difference. Or to play from range and be a pestilence and run away when someone focus it. Stealth classes are like that, they are nasty as hell when they use tactics and intelligence, but when focused they crumble. As it should be.

    Oh you don't like where this is going huh? coz you theefs dont wanna face up to logical consequences. I'm just reading your biased post again huh i particularly liked how u try to claim insane advantages are steamrolled by and then list every class. Classic theef move. "Ohh loook we can't do anything to anyone we are soooo weak puny puny ones please no touch us at all". Meanwhile 1shotting from stealth type players and evading 8-10 man groups for 8-10 seconds without taking damage or flying across the screen. Yea, last patch but you theefs are still the same mentality. Try playing others classes, see how they get nerfed down for all their strengths.

    As I just explained, the third dodge is 1 extra dodge in the entire fight. Not one dodge every X seconds. 1, in the entire fight. On average, thats an extra dodge every, lets say, 30-60 seconds? Yeah thats basically nothing. And yeah, Daredevil is pretty irrelevant. There are 3 builds that pick it. Condi thieves, because there are only 3 traitlines relevant to condi, and DD is one of them. Staff Thief because you literally dont have a choice. And S/P Thief, which picked it for exactly absolution. Well, in Conquest the Dash mobility is also nice I suppose, but that was secondary. Every single other thief build, including the only good ones dont pick it.

    Bold of you to assume I havent ditched thief a long time ago and been playing other classes. Well, I guess I still play DE in PvP because I cant be bothered to craft new ascended gear, but Im getting most of my PvPing done in sPvP, where Im playing Core Engineer. You know why? Because thief is boring, and sucks at actually fighting. And right now, in 2v2, fighting is all that matters. So Id much rather have Core Engineer with its higher damage, better survivability, better utility and no downsides over whatever the least weak thief version for 2v2 is. And as for WvW, hoo boy. But let me just add to this part: "They can just outrun you even if you are using teleport(s) and speed runes with their default". Spoiler: all roaming classes can. In fact, thief is not the best one at it. Warrior is. On flat ground, thief will never be able to run away from, or catch up to, a Warrior. On elevated ground, different story because teleports help there, but most of WvW is either flat ground, or elevated ground that teleports dont work on.

    Other games have not shown that. Other games have shown that permastealth out of combat always leads to frustrating gank scenarios where you just get blown out of nowhere, or result in the stealth being completely irrelevant. Out-of-combat stealth needs some kind of inherent counter to function to be at all healthy, and even then its only borderline. You know what has shown itself to be healthy though? In-combat stealth.

    For someone saying "logically" a lot, you seem to not have tried to think about it logically. Lets say thief is weaker in combat (which is already the case). Now what does this mean? This means that thief cannot win a fair 1v1. Which means, that their ability to choose when and where to fight doesnt matter, because while they can choose those, all that means is that they chose from a list of lost fights. There are no fights they can choose that they will win (unless they are geared better/play significantly better). Which means that the only way they have of being relevant is by doing cheesy permastealth oneshots. Take away those, and the class simply is useless. As is the permastealth. So, whats the point, exactly?

    So you just want thief to be slightly weaker? Congratulations, thats already accomplished. Thief is more than just slightly weaker, its significantly weaker. So, why do you want to nerf it? Hell by your own words it should be buffed.

    Yes, because thieves are totally oneshotting from stealth on non-squishy undergeared classes right now. Totally. Its not Mesmers doing that, or Trapper Rangers, or hell Core Engineers. Its the thieves. Except, of course, its not the thieves, their damage is insufficient. I also find it interesting that you think stopping damage for 8-10 seconds once every 1.5 minutes is impressive. Like Warrior cant do that every 20 seconds. And again, Im playing Core Engineer. But how about a suggestion? Try playing thief yourself. See how well youll do. And when you inevitably die repeatedly while unable to accomplish anything, dont act surprised.

  • they are totally out of control. Its like playing a mmo against cheaters but in this game the "cheat" is the game mechanic.

  • @Kontrolle.3514 said:
    they are totally out of control. Its like playing a mmo against cheaters but in this game the "cheat" is the game mechanic.

    that's exactly how i've seen it since the beginning of gw. being able to become invisible all the time and teleport around feels totally like legal cheating... worst class mechanics of all time.so i generally don't play against them, unless the players are too stupid for their builds they copied from the internet...

  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:
    Redesign Theef:

    Theef can keep good stealth but under certain conditions:

    • Damage must not be burst type, but ramp up type. Nothing is more toxic than super burst stealth builds.
    • Theef cannot stealth for 4-5s after getting hit or hitting a target. They should not be able to freely engage, unload, disappear all over. When they commit, it must be a fight.
    • Above can only be broken by 1-2 cooldowns that allows stealth at anytime and doesn't do damage like cc abilities now.
    • All other forms of more reliable stealth should not be useable while in active combat.
    • Theef ways to avoidance, evade etc as well as mobility needs to get toned drastically down, not just a little bit. It is out of hand. I am not sure if it's just daredevil or what but they have SO much and other classes like mesmer got nerfed into the ground for having similar and now don't got kitten while theef immune for days and tralalaing.
    • Since thief has stealth and good evades, it should not be heavy on CC/Stability/Stunbreak (i have no clue if this is case).

    So basically, make in-combat stealth not just useless but non-existent, but then also nerf thieves (already low) 1v1 capabilities in exchange for the stealth. That they cant use. What? I mean your suggestion basically boils down to "make thief so useless that picking it in any PvP gamemode should be reason enough for a ban". It also, ironically enough, fails to address the only problem there is with stealth. Out-of-combat stealth.

    Do you have a problem with any point, or do you just attempt to say "no don't nerf anything"?

    What is left after what i suggest is still a thief who got permastealth, only stealth can't just be applied during combat freely but like most other mmos out there needs a cooldown to activate when in combat. Extreme bursty is a not good design to fit on stealth because it becomes toxic, is that a point you got issue with?

    It follows logically that a class who should have above average avoidances + stealth, have to have at least not as good sum of cc, stability, stunbreak as other classes who does not have those tools.

    Also, i tell you now theef at least daredevil amount of evading and kitten is way out of line, other classes like mesmer got that nerfed several times over and over, you won't be able to come with your little "ohhhh no please no pleeeasse no we will be weak" arguments, you will pay the price eventually.

    I have a problem with all of your points because they are poorly thought out, to say the least.

    Permastealth is literally the only issue with stealth. In-combat stealth is already bad. There is a reason thieves avoid in-combat stealth like the plague, instead trying to drop out of stealth ASAP if theyre actively fighting someone. Out of combat stealth is whats a problem. Your suggestion to that is to leave out of combat stealth alone, and nerf in-combat stealth. Basically, youre removing thief as anything but a cheesy stealth oneshot build. When your goal should be to keep anything but the cheesy stealth oneshot builds.

    First of all, no point mentioning stealth here. Stealth is irrelevant to in-combat discussion, and that is all in-combat discussion. Second thief wishes it had above average avoidances. Maybe then it wouldnt be a class so bad at 1v1ing its defining characteristic is never picking a fair fight, and running away from the many fights they cant win. Thief also is worse at CC (Only DE has CC that lasts more than 1 second), stability (literally cant access stability other than by stealing it or from Consume Plasma) and stunbreaks (long cooldowns, and one of their only 2 good stunbreaks happens to also be one of their only 2 good condi cleanses, and the class struggles with condi as is).

    Yeah, so out of line that the best build doesnt even use Daredevil, and the only build that does, literally does so only to not lose instantly to condis. And yeah, Daredevils evading is totally out of line, what with their 1 extra dodge the entire fight while otherwise having no extra sources of dodge. And both of the weaponsets that have an additional evade skill effectively have 2 charges with a 10 second cooldown. That totally sounds out of line and not like something Warrior, Mesmer, Weaver, Firebrand, Scrapper, Revenant and Ranger can only laugh at.

    Did you just try to shove it all under the rug and making the 3 dodge devil as to be an irrelevant evader? And claim this is only way against condis? Try playing others classes man really. Other classes got their advantages nerfed down and down, and theef still got absolutely insane away to stay safe., disengage and spamable mobility. They can just outrun you even if you are using teleport(s) and speed runes with their default. They will take nerfs in the long run mark my words. Let's say you are right, and it's the only way to deal with condis(what a kitten misdirection from the truth that evades are insane), then they should still nerf the evasion and give a meaningful way to coutner condis.

    And what are you trying to say about stability etc? I said it should be so but that i didn't know if it was already so. It is so? good, but you make 0 point there.

    Other games have shown, permastealth out of combat is okay. The reason i don't suggest to remove it is because i want theef to have something it can do, to be different in a way. Not to be more of the same. You can say a theef should be weaker in a fight than other classes, because it has the power of being able to choose exactly when to engage and without that it will not be balanced. This is logical fact. You want them to have both stealth plus equal to others in combat? Now it's unfair, fight just as well but can walk around invisible. Theef has to pick the right fights, engage at the right time this is how to use its class strengths - how it gains the upper hand from a initial slight disadvantage. Choose starting location, positioning, terrain, +1, etc. It should be just slightly weaker, not much and so little that player skill means far more than the small difference. Or to play from range and be a pestilence and run away when someone focus it. Stealth classes are like that, they are nasty as hell when they use tactics and intelligence, but when focused they crumble. As it should be.

    Oh you don't like where this is going huh? coz you theefs dont wanna face up to logical consequences. I'm just reading your biased post again huh i particularly liked how u try to claim insane advantages are steamrolled by and then list every class. Classic theef move. "Ohh loook we can't do anything to anyone we are soooo weak puny puny ones please no touch us at all". Meanwhile 1shotting from stealth type players and evading 8-10 man groups for 8-10 seconds without taking damage or flying across the screen. Yea, last patch but you theefs are still the same mentality. Try playing others classes, see how they get nerfed down for all their strengths.

    As I just explained, the third dodge is 1 extra dodge in the entire fight. Not one dodge every X seconds. 1, in the entire fight. On average, thats an extra dodge every, lets say, 30-60 seconds? Yeah thats basically nothing. And yeah, Daredevil is pretty irrelevant. There are 3 builds that pick it. Condi thieves, because there are only 3 traitlines relevant to condi, and DD is one of them. Staff Thief because you literally dont have a choice. And S/P Thief, which picked it for exactly absolution. Well, in Conquest the Dash mobility is also nice I suppose, but that was secondary. Every single other thief build, including the only good ones dont pick it.

    Bold of you to assume I havent ditched thief a long time ago and been playing other classes. Well, I guess I still play DE in PvP because I cant be bothered to craft new ascended gear, but Im getting most of my PvPing done in sPvP, where Im playing Core Engineer. You know why? Because thief is boring, and sucks at actually fighting. And right now, in 2v2, fighting is all that matters. So Id much rather have Core Engineer with its higher damage, better survivability, better utility and no downsides over whatever the least weak thief version for 2v2 is. And as for WvW, hoo boy. But let me just add to this part: "They can just outrun you even if you are using teleport(s) and speed runes with their default". Spoiler: all roaming classes can. In fact, thief is not the best one at it. Warrior is. On flat ground, thief will never be able to run away from, or catch up to, a Warrior. On elevated ground, different story because teleports help there, but most of WvW is either flat ground, or elevated ground that teleports dont work on.

    Other games have not shown that. Other games have shown that permastealth out of combat always leads to frustrating gank scenarios where you just get blown out of nowhere, or result in the stealth being completely irrelevant. Out-of-combat stealth needs some kind of inherent counter to function to be at all healthy, and even then its only borderline. You know what has shown itself to be healthy though? In-combat stealth.

    For someone saying "logically" a lot, you seem to not have tried to think about it logically. Lets say thief is weaker in combat (which is already the case). Now what does this mean? This means that thief cannot win a fair 1v1. Which means, that their ability to choose when and where to fight doesnt matter, because while they can choose those, all that means is that they chose from a list of lost fights. There are no fights they can choose that they will win (unless they are geared better/play significantly better). Which means that the only way they have of being relevant is by doing cheesy permastealth oneshots. Take away those, and the class simply is useless. As is the permastealth. So, whats the point, exactly?

    So you just want thief to be slightly weaker? Congratulations, thats already accomplished. Thief is more than just slightly weaker, its significantly weaker. So, why do you want to nerf it? Hell by your own words it should be buffed.

    Yes, because thieves are totally oneshotting from stealth on non-squishy undergeared classes right now. Totally. Its not Mesmers doing that, or Trapper Rangers, or hell Core Engineers. Its the thieves. Except, of course, its not the thieves, their damage is insufficient. I also find it interesting that you think stopping damage for 8-10 seconds once every 1.5 minutes is impressive. Like Warrior cant do that every 20 seconds. And again, Im playing Core Engineer. But how about a suggestion? Try playing thief yourself. See how well youll do. And when you inevitably die repeatedly while unable to accomplish anything, dont act surprised.

    It's funny to listen to people defending overpowered stuff - they always wanna make it look like nah it's aint nothing much. Which is what you do for every point. Just deny it. Look at your wall of complication for attempted denial.

    Also i don't quite think you understand the meaning of logic. I'll give you one example how you completely defy logic in name of logic. I said:

    " Theef has to pick the right fights, engage at the right time this is how to use its class strengths - how it gains the upper hand from a initial slight disadvantage. Choose starting location, positioning, terrain, +1, etc."

    To which you later after going on a denial rant try to state after ironically bashing me talking about logics:

    "Lets say thief is weaker in combat (which is already the case). Now what does this mean? This means that thief cannot win a fair 1v1. Which means, that their ability to choose when and where to fight doesnt matter, because while they can choose those, all that means is that they chose from a list of lost fights."

    This is false. The only scenario this is true under, is when the assumption is that starting location, timing, positioning makes no difference. Which is a plain falsehood, therefore your deductions are not based on logic at all and do in fact defy logic. You have no idea how much your wall of denial is full of illogical holes that i am not in the mood to waste time trying to answer because i already know after you will deny everything, forget all that was said, and state more fallacy. The only thing somewhat truthful(but a strawman as completely irrelevant here) depends what you mean a fair fight - if a fair fight is 2 dudes seeing each other coming and charging into each other then no, that won't be in theefs favor - because entire theef class design is to make "unfair" fights using stealth to gain advantage or sniping from afar which is what makes that point irrelevant, a strawman, which you then follow up with another falsehood. Etc etc.

    Have fun in your world of denial, theef.

  • archmagus.7249archmagus.7249 Member ✭✭✭

    Agreed. They can't be allowed to instant-kill you. An elite that Crits for 24k then instantly kills you. Plus they can remove revealed: the one balance that was put in place for stealth.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:
    Redesign Theef:

    Theef can keep good stealth but under certain conditions:

    • Damage must not be burst type, but ramp up type. Nothing is more toxic than super burst stealth builds.
    • Theef cannot stealth for 4-5s after getting hit or hitting a target. They should not be able to freely engage, unload, disappear all over. When they commit, it must be a fight.
    • Above can only be broken by 1-2 cooldowns that allows stealth at anytime and doesn't do damage like cc abilities now.
    • All other forms of more reliable stealth should not be useable while in active combat.
    • Theef ways to avoidance, evade etc as well as mobility needs to get toned drastically down, not just a little bit. It is out of hand. I am not sure if it's just daredevil or what but they have SO much and other classes like mesmer got nerfed into the ground for having similar and now don't got kitten while theef immune for days and tralalaing.
    • Since thief has stealth and good evades, it should not be heavy on CC/Stability/Stunbreak (i have no clue if this is case).

    So basically, make in-combat stealth not just useless but non-existent, but then also nerf thieves (already low) 1v1 capabilities in exchange for the stealth. That they cant use. What? I mean your suggestion basically boils down to "make thief so useless that picking it in any PvP gamemode should be reason enough for a ban". It also, ironically enough, fails to address the only problem there is with stealth. Out-of-combat stealth.

    Do you have a problem with any point, or do you just attempt to say "no don't nerf anything"?

    What is left after what i suggest is still a thief who got permastealth, only stealth can't just be applied during combat freely but like most other mmos out there needs a cooldown to activate when in combat. Extreme bursty is a not good design to fit on stealth because it becomes toxic, is that a point you got issue with?

    It follows logically that a class who should have above average avoidances + stealth, have to have at least not as good sum of cc, stability, stunbreak as other classes who does not have those tools.

    Also, i tell you now theef at least daredevil amount of evading and kitten is way out of line, other classes like mesmer got that nerfed several times over and over, you won't be able to come with your little "ohhhh no please no pleeeasse no we will be weak" arguments, you will pay the price eventually.

    I have a problem with all of your points because they are poorly thought out, to say the least.

    Permastealth is literally the only issue with stealth. In-combat stealth is already bad. There is a reason thieves avoid in-combat stealth like the plague, instead trying to drop out of stealth ASAP if theyre actively fighting someone. Out of combat stealth is whats a problem. Your suggestion to that is to leave out of combat stealth alone, and nerf in-combat stealth. Basically, youre removing thief as anything but a cheesy stealth oneshot build. When your goal should be to keep anything but the cheesy stealth oneshot builds.

    First of all, no point mentioning stealth here. Stealth is irrelevant to in-combat discussion, and that is all in-combat discussion. Second thief wishes it had above average avoidances. Maybe then it wouldnt be a class so bad at 1v1ing its defining characteristic is never picking a fair fight, and running away from the many fights they cant win. Thief also is worse at CC (Only DE has CC that lasts more than 1 second), stability (literally cant access stability other than by stealing it or from Consume Plasma) and stunbreaks (long cooldowns, and one of their only 2 good stunbreaks happens to also be one of their only 2 good condi cleanses, and the class struggles with condi as is).

    Yeah, so out of line that the best build doesnt even use Daredevil, and the only build that does, literally does so only to not lose instantly to condis. And yeah, Daredevils evading is totally out of line, what with their 1 extra dodge the entire fight while otherwise having no extra sources of dodge. And both of the weaponsets that have an additional evade skill effectively have 2 charges with a 10 second cooldown. That totally sounds out of line and not like something Warrior, Mesmer, Weaver, Firebrand, Scrapper, Revenant and Ranger can only laugh at.

    Did you just try to shove it all under the rug and making the 3 dodge devil as to be an irrelevant evader? And claim this is only way against condis? Try playing others classes man really. Other classes got their advantages nerfed down and down, and theef still got absolutely insane away to stay safe., disengage and spamable mobility. They can just outrun you even if you are using teleport(s) and speed runes with their default. They will take nerfs in the long run mark my words. Let's say you are right, and it's the only way to deal with condis(what a kitten misdirection from the truth that evades are insane), then they should still nerf the evasion and give a meaningful way to coutner condis.

    And what are you trying to say about stability etc? I said it should be so but that i didn't know if it was already so. It is so? good, but you make 0 point there.

    Other games have shown, permastealth out of combat is okay. The reason i don't suggest to remove it is because i want theef to have something it can do, to be different in a way. Not to be more of the same. You can say a theef should be weaker in a fight than other classes, because it has the power of being able to choose exactly when to engage and without that it will not be balanced. This is logical fact. You want them to have both stealth plus equal to others in combat? Now it's unfair, fight just as well but can walk around invisible. Theef has to pick the right fights, engage at the right time this is how to use its class strengths - how it gains the upper hand from a initial slight disadvantage. Choose starting location, positioning, terrain, +1, etc. It should be just slightly weaker, not much and so little that player skill means far more than the small difference. Or to play from range and be a pestilence and run away when someone focus it. Stealth classes are like that, they are nasty as hell when they use tactics and intelligence, but when focused they crumble. As it should be.

    Oh you don't like where this is going huh? coz you theefs dont wanna face up to logical consequences. I'm just reading your biased post again huh i particularly liked how u try to claim insane advantages are steamrolled by and then list every class. Classic theef move. "Ohh loook we can't do anything to anyone we are soooo weak puny puny ones please no touch us at all". Meanwhile 1shotting from stealth type players and evading 8-10 man groups for 8-10 seconds without taking damage or flying across the screen. Yea, last patch but you theefs are still the same mentality. Try playing others classes, see how they get nerfed down for all their strengths.

    As I just explained, the third dodge is 1 extra dodge in the entire fight. Not one dodge every X seconds. 1, in the entire fight. On average, thats an extra dodge every, lets say, 30-60 seconds? Yeah thats basically nothing. And yeah, Daredevil is pretty irrelevant. There are 3 builds that pick it. Condi thieves, because there are only 3 traitlines relevant to condi, and DD is one of them. Staff Thief because you literally dont have a choice. And S/P Thief, which picked it for exactly absolution. Well, in Conquest the Dash mobility is also nice I suppose, but that was secondary. Every single other thief build, including the only good ones dont pick it.

    Bold of you to assume I havent ditched thief a long time ago and been playing other classes. Well, I guess I still play DE in PvP because I cant be bothered to craft new ascended gear, but Im getting most of my PvPing done in sPvP, where Im playing Core Engineer. You know why? Because thief is boring, and sucks at actually fighting. And right now, in 2v2, fighting is all that matters. So Id much rather have Core Engineer with its higher damage, better survivability, better utility and no downsides over whatever the least weak thief version for 2v2 is. And as for WvW, hoo boy. But let me just add to this part: "They can just outrun you even if you are using teleport(s) and speed runes with their default". Spoiler: all roaming classes can. In fact, thief is not the best one at it. Warrior is. On flat ground, thief will never be able to run away from, or catch up to, a Warrior. On elevated ground, different story because teleports help there, but most of WvW is either flat ground, or elevated ground that teleports dont work on.

    Other games have not shown that. Other games have shown that permastealth out of combat always leads to frustrating gank scenarios where you just get blown out of nowhere, or result in the stealth being completely irrelevant. Out-of-combat stealth needs some kind of inherent counter to function to be at all healthy, and even then its only borderline. You know what has shown itself to be healthy though? In-combat stealth.

    For someone saying "logically" a lot, you seem to not have tried to think about it logically. Lets say thief is weaker in combat (which is already the case). Now what does this mean? This means that thief cannot win a fair 1v1. Which means, that their ability to choose when and where to fight doesnt matter, because while they can choose those, all that means is that they chose from a list of lost fights. There are no fights they can choose that they will win (unless they are geared better/play significantly better). Which means that the only way they have of being relevant is by doing cheesy permastealth oneshots. Take away those, and the class simply is useless. As is the permastealth. So, whats the point, exactly?

    So you just want thief to be slightly weaker? Congratulations, thats already accomplished. Thief is more than just slightly weaker, its significantly weaker. So, why do you want to nerf it? Hell by your own words it should be buffed.

    Yes, because thieves are totally oneshotting from stealth on non-squishy undergeared classes right now. Totally. Its not Mesmers doing that, or Trapper Rangers, or hell Core Engineers. Its the thieves. Except, of course, its not the thieves, their damage is insufficient. I also find it interesting that you think stopping damage for 8-10 seconds once every 1.5 minutes is impressive. Like Warrior cant do that every 20 seconds. And again, Im playing Core Engineer. But how about a suggestion? Try playing thief yourself. See how well youll do. And when you inevitably die repeatedly while unable to accomplish anything, dont act surprised.

    It's funny to listen to people defending overpowered stuff - they always wanna make it look like nah it's aint nothing much. Which is what you do for every point. Just deny it. Look at your wall of complication for attempted denial.

    Yeah, so Overpowered that, as I said, 2/3 builds using that traitline have to be forced to use it, and none of the builds using it are very good right now. And mate, you cant just try to handwave my dismantling of all your arguments as just "denial". Youre wrong, its as simple as that.

    Also i don't quite think you understand the meaning of logic. I'll give you one example how you completely defy logic in name of logic. I said:

    " Theef has to pick the right fights, engage at the right time this is how to use its class strengths - how it gains the upper hand from a initial slight disadvantage. Choose starting location, positioning, terrain, +1, etc."

    To which you later after going on a denial rant try to state after ironically bashing me talking about logics:

    "Lets say thief is weaker in combat (which is already the case). Now what does this mean? This means that thief cannot win a fair 1v1. Which means, that their ability to choose when and where to fight doesnt matter, because while they can choose those, all that means is that they chose from a list of lost fights."

    This is false. The only scenario this is true under, is when the assumption is that starting location, timing, positioning makes no difference. Which is a plain falsehood, therefore your deductions are not based on logic at all and do in fact defy logic. You have no idea how much your wall of denial is full of illogical holes that i am not in the mood to waste time trying to answer because i already know after you will deny everything, forget all that was said, and state more fallacy. The only thing somewhat truthful(but a strawman as completely irrelevant here) depends what you mean a fair fight - if a fair fight is 2 dudes seeing each other coming and charging into each other then no, that won't be in theefs favor - because entire theef class design is to make "unfair" fights using stealth to gain advantage or sniping from afar which is what makes that point irrelevant, a strawman, which you then follow up with another falsehood. Etc etc.

    "Logic". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. So, lets dismantle this again. "The only scenario this is true under, is when the assumption is that starting location, timing, positioning makes no difference.". Not exactly. I said "Fair 1v1". Sure, you could say that thief would excel when 2v1ing someone, or when ganking a low-health target, or some such scenario, and you would be right, but it would also be irrelevant because those arent fair fights. Those are just cheesing players some other way. It also ignores that pretty much every single roamer can do that just as easily. But in a fair 1v1? Yeah, none of those matter. The only advantage thief can gain from positioning is from its abilities to shortbow 5 up cliffs. Which is good when running away. Not so good when actually fighting someone. Timing makes no difference, unless its one of the previously mentioned things. And location is the same as positioning. So, no, its a simple truth.

    Oh I dont just have an idea, I know. 0%. Everything I said was completely true, your attempts at handwaving it and denying notwithstanding. I do always find it ironic how people project the very things they themselves are guilty off. But lets talk about this bit for a bit: "because entire theef class design is to make "unfair" fights using stealth to gain advantage or sniping from afar". See, thief cant set up "unfair" fights. It can only act on setups from other classes. Unless youre oneshotting from stealth (Which you also dont want to be possible), stealth does not gain you any advantage. Especially not in-combat stealth, but even out of combat stealth doesnt. There is a reason Core Engineer doesnt throw Elixir S to engage on people, it makes little sense (unless theyre squishy and youre Nade Barraging them).

    As for Sniping? Thief is not Ranger. Theyre terrible at sniping. The only ranged power weapon worth using (technically P/D is also ranged, but you want to be up close due to a number of traits), Rifle, is a midrange weapon. It excels at about 900-1000 range. More and the enemy just walks backwards and is out of range, less and youre in a world of hurt. Guess what? Its no more "unfair" than literally any ranged weapon from literally any class. Is Axe "unfair" now?

    Instead, lets talk about how it really works. Right now, thief does not want to 1v1 unless they can burst out of stealth. No matter how you pick your fight, if your enemy isnt undergeared, playing a terrible build and/or a much less skilled player, you will lose every single time. Unless youre Condi thief, I guess? I dont know, I dont like Condi Thief so I havent looked much into it. Instead, thief occupies the role of clean-up. They turn even fights uneven, and take care of low-health stragglers. And yeah, theyre good at it. So whats the issue? Well, as I mentioned before. Every single roamer is good at it. Especially ever since Mounts were introduced, that let everyone have the same out of combat mobility. Hell, Id even say some classes, like Warrior are better, since the only thing capable of catching up to a Warrior, is another Warrior. Plus, they do more damage, and have much better CC, which is great for +1ing. WvW is not sPvP. Shortbow 5 is not king here.

    Have fun in your world of denial, theef.

    The only one living in a world of denial is you. Not surprising, given that you talk so much about thief while clearly not knowing anything about thief, probably because you have never actually played thief. Then again, I also find you complaining about stealth oneshots from thief while playing Mesmer (who does stealth oneshots as well, but can oneshot non-squishies) hilarious. Hell, even now, Mesmer is a better roamer than thief (not to mention your PI-like trait wasnt nerfed into uselessness like PI itself was).

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2020

    Sometimes you're driving on the road and you're avoiding potholes, but then then some random stealth rock smacks your windshield and cracks it, which is then a constant reminder of that one bad situation.
    The story of the zerg and the deadeye.
    The End.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Its time to nerf the stealth. This is ridiculous.

    Stealth is the same kind of buff than SuperSpeed is. Not a boon, not removable etc.

    Why cant stealth just be like Superspeed then? The Duration of SuperSpeed doesnt stack, and it always takes the newest(or longest? ) Apply of the buff.
    Stealth should be exactly the same. It shouldnt stack in duration.

    Or doest it makes sense? If i throw one smokebomb on my ground ,im invisible for some secs. If i throw 2 smokebombs im automatically stealth for twice the time? This is stupid.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    Its time to nerf the stealth. This is ridiculous.

    Stealth is the same kind of buff than SuperSpeed is. Not a boon, not removable etc.

    Why cant stealth just be like Superspeed then? The Duration of SuperSpeed doesnt stack, and it always takes the newest(or longest? ) Apply of the buff.
    Stealth should be exactly the same. It shouldnt stack in duration.

    Or doest it makes sense? If i throw one smokebomb on my ground ,im invisible for some secs. If i throw 2 smokebombs im automatically stealth for twice the time? This is stupid.

    Well, there are one or two skills where that wouldnt make sense (Shadow Refuge, maybe sneak Gyro), but yeah, sure, that would probably be a fine change. Basically eliminates permastealth, and allows for in-combat stealth to be buffed.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    Its time to nerf the stealth. This is ridiculous.

    Stealth is the same kind of buff than SuperSpeed is. Not a boon, not removable etc.

    Why cant stealth just be like Superspeed then? The Duration of SuperSpeed doesnt stack, and it always takes the newest(or longest? ) Apply of the buff.
    Stealth should be exactly the same. It shouldnt stack in duration.

    Or doest it makes sense? If i throw one smokebomb on my ground ,im invisible for some secs. If i throw 2 smokebombs im automatically stealth for twice the time? This is stupid.

    They would have to adjust some traits and stuff because rapid reapplication would only make my build a little stronger. I would like to have the option to stack stealth out of combat (I use it to travel and scout a lot without attacking) with a gradual reveal by proximity and then combat application capped at like 4 seconds. I would have a harder time shaking people off to reset but I could still set up something precise by choosing to use cooldowns if I want a sure thing but then in combat I wouldn't be totally nerfed.

    Any idea or approach is going to generate it's problems that might not be apparent right away, hopefully the simplest solution wins out.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zok.4956 said:

    @Tuna Bandit.3786 said:
    Tell me this: Does your Zerg leave a single roamer alone trying to capture a sentury? I doubt it, you likely will use the Massive power of the zerg to steamroll the poor roamer without him giving a fighting chance. Am I right? AM I?!?!?!

    But they are when they have to kill that single player, even if the player is retreating... that's not fighting that's slaughter... yet you see it constantly.

    Not all commanders/zergs act the same way.

    With the commanders and zergs, that I usually run with, it is the standard, that we do not chase single players/roamers and that we just ignore them and go around them and do not attack. And if some zerglings try to chase roamers, they are told by the commander and other players, not to do this. Unless of course, the roamers attack first and try to pick players from the zerg, then the zerg defends itself.

    I love fighting zergs like that. I usually follow them and pick them off. By the time they reach their destination they've lost a third of their zerg.

  • Luranni.9470Luranni.9470 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 22, 2020

    Random other idea... but what if moving in stealth left some subtle footprints (like leggies do but almost see-through shadowy footprints) so if you don't wanna give yourself away, then don't move, but if you are moving there's some counterplay. Then perhaps sentry marked etc can be changed to just make those footprints much more visible (and dot on map) rather than completely knocking thief out of stealth. Also, it's more roleplay :P.

    lol nvm this idea was already had in another thread! Ironically by someone named FLEE twilight zone

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/101057/i-have-an-interesting-suggestion-about-stealth

  • Nirari.4827Nirari.4827 Member ✭✭

    Hello. I don't want to attack or hurt anyone.

    After the patch, DE thieves are no longer a problem.
    Practice your class, learn exactly what each skill does.
    If you get better, you can defeat them easily.

    Problems with thieves are no longer due to class mechanics.

    Try a Warri FB or Guard and practice.

  • Brujeria.7536Brujeria.7536 Member ✭✭✭

    They should just add a 3 second reveal whenever thief comes out of stealth, even when stealth just expires. Also stealth should not stack. This would turn stealth more into a tactical combat tool instead of the unbalanced and unfun mechanic it is currently.

  • Nirari.4827Nirari.4827 Member ✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    They should just add a 3 second reveal whenever thief comes out of stealth, even when stealth just expires. Also stealth should not stack. This would turn stealth more into a tactical combat tool instead of the unbalanced and unfun mechanic it is currently.

    Do you have problems with thief?

    Edit:
    With fullglass oneshot perma stealth de thief

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    They should just add a 3 second reveal whenever thief comes out of stealth, even when stealth just expires. Also stealth should not stack. This would turn stealth more into a tactical combat tool instead of the unbalanced and unfun mechanic it is currently.

    That would just kill in-combat stealth which is already dead, while not affecting out of combat stealth. Stealth not stacking however would work. Do that, and in-combat stealth can be buffed to be a viable choice rather than the joke it has been for years.

  • Brujeria.7536Brujeria.7536 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    They should just add a 3 second reveal whenever thief comes out of stealth, even when stealth just expires. Also stealth should not stack. This would turn stealth more into a tactical combat tool instead of the unbalanced and unfun mechanic it is currently.

    That would just kill in-combat stealth which is already dead, while not affecting out of combat stealth. Stealth not stacking however would work. Do that, and in-combat stealth can be buffed to be a viable choice rather than the joke it has been for years.

    Well it would, if a thief have 3 seconds reveal everytime stealth ends and if stealth does not stack anymore there will be regular 3 second windows to spot / kill / pressure the thief.

  • Brujeria.7536Brujeria.7536 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nirari.4827 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    They should just add a 3 second reveal whenever thief comes out of stealth, even when stealth just expires. Also stealth should not stack. This would turn stealth more into a tactical combat tool instead of the unbalanced and unfun mechanic it is currently.

    Do you have problems with thief?

    Edit:
    With fullglass oneshot perma stealth de thief

    No, i have problems with stealth in GW2 in general. Thief is the biggest offender because he has the most stealth access.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    They should just add a 3 second reveal whenever thief comes out of stealth, even when stealth just expires. Also stealth should not stack. This would turn stealth more into a tactical combat tool instead of the unbalanced and unfun mechanic it is currently.

    That would just kill in-combat stealth which is already dead, while not affecting out of combat stealth. Stealth not stacking however would work. Do that, and in-combat stealth can be buffed to be a viable choice rather than the joke it has been for years.

    In combat stealth is not joke , you simply dont know how it works
    Dota has 12-20 sec cd , in each class
    Giving theopponent enought time to box it out with the stealth guy , before he vanish

    Hellsing Abridged, JapAudio: Soul Eater, Arpeggio of Blue Steel,Code Geass , Seto no Hanayome(startfrom2ndep)
    Baka to Test,Pani Pon,He Is My Master(2nd) ,Azumanga Daioh ,Kamen no Maid Guy,Kenichi, Ouran Koukou
    Yamato Nadeshiko, Haré+Guu(5th)..Old animes: BLUE NOAH,Plawres Sanshiro,Sexy Commando

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    They should just add a 3 second reveal whenever thief comes out of stealth, even when stealth just expires. Also stealth should not stack. This would turn stealth more into a tactical combat tool instead of the unbalanced and unfun mechanic it is currently.

    That would just kill in-combat stealth which is already dead, while not affecting out of combat stealth. Stealth not stacking however would work. Do that, and in-combat stealth can be buffed to be a viable choice rather than the joke it has been for years.

    In combat stealth is not joke , you simply dont know how it works

    It is a joke. I know how it works, you clearly dont (though you also clearly just dont know anything about thief in general, given that you think Quick Pockets is better than Sleight of Hand). Why do you think no thief build actually goes for in-combat stealth, and why it is no thief build actively focused on stealth at all for 4 years? Like seriously, from HoT to the first half of last year, no stealth thief build existed at all. D/P focused entirely on headshot. The only one that was was permastealth oneshot cheese, but that one either killed you instantly, or died instantly, with no in-between. It didnt use stealth either. Oh and it wasnt actually good. Just really frustrating.

    Dota has 12-20 sec cd , in each class
    Giving theopponent enought time to box it out with the stealth guy , before he vanish

    Actually, Riki restealths every 2 seconds. Shukuchi only has 2 seconds between stealth uses. And the other ones have stealth durations that last longer than the cooldown, so they can exit stealth and immediately reenter it.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Brujeria.7536 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    They should just add a 3 second reveal whenever thief comes out of stealth, even when stealth just expires. Also stealth should not stack. This would turn stealth more into a tactical combat tool instead of the unbalanced and unfun mechanic it is currently.

    That would just kill in-combat stealth which is already dead, while not affecting out of combat stealth. Stealth not stacking however would work. Do that, and in-combat stealth can be buffed to be a viable choice rather than the joke it has been for years.

    Well it would, if a thief have 3 seconds reveal everytime stealth ends and if stealth does not stack anymore there will be regular 3 second windows to spot / kill / pressure the thief.

    Point is, youre nerfing something that is already so bad, no build goes for it. The only build that even uses in-combat stealth is rifle DE, and it tries to lose said stealth ASAP.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    As I stated in another thread adding 10 sec reveal CD on stealth, if thief takes damage would reward good play and punish bad play. A good thief with its evades and teleportation skills should be able to still be able to stack stealth,set up their ambush and attack. After their ambush burst if they use their many evades to avoid being hit they can still stealth and decide to stay engaged or to disengage. If a thief makes a bad play and is hit after its engagement than it should be punished with a 10 sec stealth reveal CD. This still allows a good thief to 100% keep its playstyle and punishes thieves who fail to use their evades to avoid damage.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    As I stated in another thread adding 10 sec reveal CD on stealth, if thief takes damage would reward good play and punish bad play. A good thief with its evades and teleportation skills should be able to still be able to stack stealth,set up their ambush and attack. After their ambush burst if they use their many evades to avoid being hit they can still stealth and decide to stay engaged or to disengage. If a thief makes a bad play and is hit after its engagement than it should be punished with a 10 sec stealth reveal CD. This still allows a good thief to 100% keep its playstyle and punishes thieves who fail to use their evades to avoid damage.

    What that does is make the permastealth oneshot, or general out of combat stealth remain broken, while making in-combat stealth go from "basically unusable" to "literally unusable". its a terrible idea.

  • blp.3489blp.3489 Member ✭✭

    "In-combat stealth is useless"
    "Is not"
    "Is too"
    "Is not"
    ...
    Hasn't his gone on long enough?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    As I stated in another thread adding 10 sec reveal CD on stealth, if thief takes damage would reward good play and punish bad play. A good thief with its evades and teleportation skills should be able to still be able to stack stealth,set up their ambush and attack. After their ambush burst if they use their many evades to avoid being hit they can still stealth and decide to stay engaged or to disengage. If a thief makes a bad play and is hit after its engagement than it should be punished with a 10 sec stealth reveal CD. This still allows a good thief to 100% keep its playstyle and punishes thieves who fail to use their evades to avoid damage.

    What that does is make the permastealth oneshot, or general out of combat stealth remain broken, while making in-combat stealth go from "basically unusable" to "literally unusable". its a terrible idea.

    No what it does is still allows the assassin class enough stealth uptime through stacking to still cover ground to engage with a ambush or for disengagment. If a thief makes a good play and engages with a burst and follows up with its attacks while using its evades properly avoiding damage it suffers zero penalties to its current playstyle but if it is struck gets punished with the 10 sec reveal CD removing one of two of its carry fail safes that allow it to leave any fight before dying at will. If a thief still wants to disengage during that cooldown it will have its teleports via utilities or infiltrator arrow.
    This allows a good thief to keep its playstyle that its accustomed to throughout all these years but punishes it slightly if mistakes are made.
    As much as I like the thief class players can't be blamed on wanting invisibility changed in it's current form. Thief would be better off if mechanics like this were balanced better allowing thief to gain some of its damage back onto its weapon skills to avoid this one trick pony, spamming and one dimensional playstyle all weaponset are right now.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    As I stated in another thread adding 10 sec reveal CD on stealth, if thief takes damage would reward good play and punish bad play. A good thief with its evades and teleportation skills should be able to still be able to stack stealth,set up their ambush and attack. After their ambush burst if they use their many evades to avoid being hit they can still stealth and decide to stay engaged or to disengage. If a thief makes a bad play and is hit after its engagement than it should be punished with a 10 sec stealth reveal CD. This still allows a good thief to 100% keep its playstyle and punishes thieves who fail to use their evades to avoid damage.

    What that does is make the permastealth oneshot, or general out of combat stealth remain broken, while making in-combat stealth go from "basically unusable" to "literally unusable". its a terrible idea.

    No what it does is still allows the assassin class enough stealth uptime through stacking to still cover ground to engage with a ambush or for disengagment. If a thief makes a good play and engages with a burst and follows up with its attacks while using its evades properly avoiding damage it suffers zero penalties to its current playstyle but if it is struck gets punished with the 10 sec reveal CD removing one of two of its carry fail safes that allow it to leave any fight before dying at will. If a thief still wants to disengage during that cooldown it will have its teleports via utilities or infiltrator arrow.
    This allows a good thief to keep its playstyle that its accustomed to throughout all these years but punishes it slightly if mistakes are made.

    Yes, thats what I said. It makes out of combat stealth remain untouched, and in-combat stealth even more useless. Despite the fact that out of combat stealth is the problem, and in-combat stealth is already useless. Besides you seem to think its at all doable to avoid 100% of damage as a thief after bursting (or even while bursting). Spoiler: Its not. At all. You might as well just say "stealth can now only be used out of combat for cheesy oneshots". Which is one of the changes that would make stealths design even worse than it already is.

    Oh and it breaks a couple Mesmer and Engineer skills.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    That build is an easy kill lol. Now p/d is suddenly a problem?
    ps - do you have some kind of rss feed or something to alert you whenever thief related stuff gets posted on youtube? it's hilarious. You could actually be spending all this time creatively thinking about sane fixes for thief players but instead chose to go down the toxic road. Please, if anything see how this isn't a good look.

    Power, Condition and Bunker is how Guild Wars 2 balance itself. Just like everyone else,Thief Profession adjusts itself with the meta of choice.

    The Toxic road in all of this is and why this isn't a good look is...... for the past 8 years......there is nothing new to this

    -No Lessons Were Learned-

    1. Thief Profession can still +1 shot
    2. Thief Profession condition is still Toxic
    3. Thief Profession can still perma-stealth
    4. Thief Profession can still stack stealth
    5. Thief Profession Mechanics and Skills remain Toxic
    6. Thief Profession Teleport continue to be exploitable
    7. Thief Profession is still Bad Design

    The only remedy to this is for a complete redesign or to completely remove this profession altogether

    until than......Guild Wars will never coexist with Toxicity

    As I've said before, you just straight up hate thief. You base your position on that emotional reaction rather than relying on on any logical argument. It's fine to hate the class, just admit it for what it is dude.

    On a more personal note, be careful how you quote the Bible. I don't imagine God likes His words being taken out of context any more than we do.

    As someone indifferent I think thief getting a rework to remove stealth, and give them more interesting/fun tools would be good for everyone. Thieves would feel better and people would probably enjoy fighting them more. Leave stealth to say... one elite spec? Like thats dead-eyes gimick and its strictly tied to them due to the way they function, but core and daredevil rely more on fluid movements and precise strikes. Turn shadow arts into shadow magic, and make them have a form of magic of their very own as it already feels as if it is magic. Make them feel unique to what their aesthetic and role within fantasy, and fantasy worlds are at this stage in the game and make them stand apart from rogues.

    This then would give new E-specs and our current ones a defined role, at least better and more defined with what we have now.

    Core= Brawler, based on under-handed tactics but more sustained fights.
    Daredevil= quicker but squishier, based on shut-down builds and quick bursts followed by escapes.
    Deadeye=Stealthy, burst with limited value due to its single target potential and the fact that stealth can't be stacked or made permanent anymore.
    future=anything

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    They should just add a 3 second reveal whenever thief comes out of stealth, even when stealth just expires. Also stealth should not stack. This would turn stealth more into a tactical combat tool instead of the unbalanced and unfun mechanic it is currently.

    That would just kill in-combat stealth which is already dead, while not affecting out of combat stealth. Stealth not stacking however would work. Do that, and in-combat stealth can be buffed to be a viable choice rather than the joke it has been for years.

    In combat stealth is not joke , you simply dont know how it works

    It is a joke. I know how it works, you clearly dont (though you also clearly just dont know anything about thief in general, given that you think Quick Pockets is better than Sleight of Hand). Why do you think no thief build actually goes for in-combat stealth, and why it is no thief build actively focused on stealth at all for 4 years? Like seriously, from HoT to the first half of last year, no stealth thief build existed at all. D/P focused entirely on headshot. The only one that was was permastealth oneshot cheese, but that one either killed you instantly, or died instantly, with no in-between. It didnt use stealth either. Oh and it wasnt actually good. Just really frustrating.

    Dota has 12-20 sec cd , in each class
    Giving theopponent enought time to box it out with the stealth guy , before he vanish

    Actually, Riki restealths every 2 seconds. Shukuchi only has 2 seconds between stealth uses. And the other ones have stealth durations that last longer than the cooldown, so they can exit stealth and immediately reenter it.

    First of all you said to see Dota that is n e-sport game .
    Why you turn around and simply go circular discussion again ?

    Dota has 12-20 sec cd
    Lets copy it

    Yeah Riki and they have a slight animation oprotunity , wherehe doesn go sstealth imidiatly ?
    Why not do this here too ?

    Hellsing Abridged, JapAudio: Soul Eater, Arpeggio of Blue Steel,Code Geass , Seto no Hanayome(startfrom2ndep)
    Baka to Test,Pani Pon,He Is My Master(2nd) ,Azumanga Daioh ,Kamen no Maid Guy,Kenichi, Ouran Koukou
    Yamato Nadeshiko, Haré+Guu(5th)..Old animes: BLUE NOAH,Plawres Sanshiro,Sexy Commando

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    They should just add a 3 second reveal whenever thief comes out of stealth, even when stealth just expires. Also stealth should not stack. This would turn stealth more into a tactical combat tool instead of the unbalanced and unfun mechanic it is currently.

    That would just kill in-combat stealth which is already dead, while not affecting out of combat stealth. Stealth not stacking however would work. Do that, and in-combat stealth can be buffed to be a viable choice rather than the joke it has been for years.

    In combat stealth is not joke , you simply dont know how it works

    It is a joke. I know how it works, you clearly dont (though you also clearly just dont know anything about thief in general, given that you think Quick Pockets is better than Sleight of Hand). Why do you think no thief build actually goes for in-combat stealth, and why it is no thief build actively focused on stealth at all for 4 years? Like seriously, from HoT to the first half of last year, no stealth thief build existed at all. D/P focused entirely on headshot. The only one that was was permastealth oneshot cheese, but that one either killed you instantly, or died instantly, with no in-between. It didnt use stealth either. Oh and it wasnt actually good. Just really frustrating.

    Dota has 12-20 sec cd , in each class
    Giving theopponent enought time to box it out with the stealth guy , before he vanish

    Actually, Riki restealths every 2 seconds. Shukuchi only has 2 seconds between stealth uses. And the other ones have stealth durations that last longer than the cooldown, so they can exit stealth and immediately reenter it.

    First of all you said to see Dota that is n e-sport game .
    Why you turn around and simply go circular discussion again ?

    I am trying to explain to you what you dont understand.

    Dota has 12-20 sec cd
    Lets copy it

    It doesnt. 2 seconds on Weaver and Riki. The only ones that have 12-20 second cd are the ones whose duration is so long, they can be in stealth and have it off cooldown. In simpler terms, they can go out of stealth, kill you, and stealth instantly.

    Yeah Riki and they have a slight animation oprotunity , wherehe doesn go sstealth imidiatly ?
    Why not do this here too ?

    .... Revealed. Youre thinking of revealed. Youre describing Revealed.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    That build is an easy kill lol. Now p/d is suddenly a problem?
    ps - do you have some kind of rss feed or something to alert you whenever thief related stuff gets posted on youtube? it's hilarious. You could actually be spending all this time creatively thinking about sane fixes for thief players but instead chose to go down the toxic road. Please, if anything see how this isn't a good look.

    Power, Condition and Bunker is how Guild Wars 2 balance itself. Just like everyone else,Thief Profession adjusts itself with the meta of choice.

    The Toxic road in all of this is and why this isn't a good look is...... for the past 8 years......there is nothing new to this

    -No Lessons Were Learned-

    1. Thief Profession can still +1 shot
    2. Thief Profession condition is still Toxic
    3. Thief Profession can still perma-stealth
    4. Thief Profession can still stack stealth
    5. Thief Profession Mechanics and Skills remain Toxic
    6. Thief Profession Teleport continue to be exploitable
    7. Thief Profession is still Bad Design

    The only remedy to this is for a complete redesign or to completely remove this profession altogether

    until than......Guild Wars will never coexist with Toxicity

    As I've said before, you just straight up hate thief. You base your position on that emotional reaction rather than relying on on any logical argument. It's fine to hate the class, just admit it for what it is dude.

    On a more personal note, be careful how you quote the Bible. I don't imagine God likes His words being taken out of context any more than we do.

    As someone indifferent I think thief getting a rework to remove stealth, and give them more interesting/fun tools would be good for everyone. Thieves would feel better and people would probably enjoy fighting them more. Leave stealth to say... one elite spec? Like thats dead-eyes gimick and its strictly tied to them due to the way they function, but core and daredevil rely more on fluid movements and precise strikes. Turn shadow arts into shadow magic, and make them have a form of magic of their very own as it already feels as if it is magic. Make them feel unique to what their aesthetic and role within fantasy, and fantasy worlds are at this stage in the game and make them stand apart from rogues.

    This then would give new E-specs and our current ones a defined role, at least better and more defined with what we have now.

    Core= Brawler, based on under-handed tactics but more sustained fights.
    Daredevil= quicker but squishier, based on shut-down builds and quick bursts followed by escapes.
    Deadeye=Stealthy, burst with limited value due to its single target potential and the fact that stealth can't be stacked or made permanent anymore.
    future=anything

    Using personal and group stealth is interesting and fun. I would not feel good about losing stealth entirely apart from the one build that has enough re-stealth effects and both obvious visual and audible tells to be shut down consistently but it being so obvious makes it the build that gets other builds nerfed by consequence. I don't find sparkly clowds of particle effects interesting or fun but in no way am I going to expect someone else's game play to be squashed because I need a handicap.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    They should just add a 3 second reveal whenever thief comes out of stealth, even when stealth just expires. Also stealth should not stack. This would turn stealth more into a tactical combat tool instead of the unbalanced and unfun mechanic it is currently.

    That would just kill in-combat stealth which is already dead, while not affecting out of combat stealth. Stealth not stacking however would work. Do that, and in-combat stealth can be buffed to be a viable choice rather than the joke it has been for years.

    In combat stealth is not joke , you simply dont know how it works

    It is a joke. I know how it works, you clearly dont (though you also clearly just dont know anything about thief in general, given that you think Quick Pockets is better than Sleight of Hand). Why do you think no thief build actually goes for in-combat stealth, and why it is no thief build actively focused on stealth at all for 4 years? Like seriously, from HoT to the first half of last year, no stealth thief build existed at all. D/P focused entirely on headshot. The only one that was was permastealth oneshot cheese, but that one either killed you instantly, or died instantly, with no in-between. It didnt use stealth either. Oh and it wasnt actually good. Just really frustrating.

    Dota has 12-20 sec cd , in each class
    Giving theopponent enought time to box it out with the stealth guy , before he vanish

    Actually, Riki restealths every 2 seconds. Shukuchi only has 2 seconds between stealth uses. And the other ones have stealth durations that last longer than the cooldown, so they can exit stealth and immediately reenter it.

    First of all you said to see Dota that is n e-sport game .
    Why you turn around and simply go circular discussion again ?

    I am trying to explain to you what you dont understand.

    Dota has 12-20 sec cd
    Lets copy it

    It doesnt. 2 seconds on Weaver and Riki. The only ones that have 12-20 second cd are the ones whose duration is so long, they can be in stealth and have it off cooldown. In simpler terms, they can go out of stealth, kill you, and stealth instantly.

    Yeah Riki and they have a slight animation oprotunity , wherehe doesn go sstealth imidiatly ?
    Why not do this here too ?

    .... Revealed. Youre thinking of revealed. Youre describing Revealed.

    Look the dota page
    If he atacks for 1 sec > he wont get stealth
    If he gain stealth , he cannot attack for an extra sec
    He cannot also dodge .
    So for 2 sec can freely punish him with aoes and if get freezed he cannotgo far

    This is what + Fade (delay stealth) we must implant
    Plus potions or jungle Buffs to see the enemy siluet , regadles if he has stealth

    You said it !
    You pointed it to tme that game

    Edit: Plz dont tell me that you love circular conversation and you get mad , for some1 else doing the same ...

    Hellsing Abridged, JapAudio: Soul Eater, Arpeggio of Blue Steel,Code Geass , Seto no Hanayome(startfrom2ndep)
    Baka to Test,Pani Pon,He Is My Master(2nd) ,Azumanga Daioh ,Kamen no Maid Guy,Kenichi, Ouran Koukou
    Yamato Nadeshiko, Haré+Guu(5th)..Old animes: BLUE NOAH,Plawres Sanshiro,Sexy Commando

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    They should just add a 3 second reveal whenever thief comes out of stealth, even when stealth just expires. Also stealth should not stack. This would turn stealth more into a tactical combat tool instead of the unbalanced and unfun mechanic it is currently.

    That would just kill in-combat stealth which is already dead, while not affecting out of combat stealth. Stealth not stacking however would work. Do that, and in-combat stealth can be buffed to be a viable choice rather than the joke it has been for years.

    In combat stealth is not joke , you simply dont know how it works

    It is a joke. I know how it works, you clearly dont (though you also clearly just dont know anything about thief in general, given that you think Quick Pockets is better than Sleight of Hand). Why do you think no thief build actually goes for in-combat stealth, and why it is no thief build actively focused on stealth at all for 4 years? Like seriously, from HoT to the first half of last year, no stealth thief build existed at all. D/P focused entirely on headshot. The only one that was was permastealth oneshot cheese, but that one either killed you instantly, or died instantly, with no in-between. It didnt use stealth either. Oh and it wasnt actually good. Just really frustrating.

    Dota has 12-20 sec cd , in each class
    Giving theopponent enought time to box it out with the stealth guy , before he vanish

    Actually, Riki restealths every 2 seconds. Shukuchi only has 2 seconds between stealth uses. And the other ones have stealth durations that last longer than the cooldown, so they can exit stealth and immediately reenter it.

    First of all you said to see Dota that is n e-sport game .
    Why you turn around and simply go circular discussion again ?

    I am trying to explain to you what you dont understand.

    Dota has 12-20 sec cd
    Lets copy it

    It doesnt. 2 seconds on Weaver and Riki. The only ones that have 12-20 second cd are the ones whose duration is so long, they can be in stealth and have it off cooldown. In simpler terms, they can go out of stealth, kill you, and stealth instantly.

    Yeah Riki and they have a slight animation oprotunity , wherehe doesn go sstealth imidiatly ?
    Why not do this here too ?

    .... Revealed. Youre thinking of revealed. Youre describing Revealed.

    Look the dota page
    If he atacks for 1 sec > he wont get stealth
    If he gain stealth , he cannot attack for an extra sec
    He cannot also dodge .
    So for 2 sec can freely punish him with aoes and if get freezed he cannotgo far

    No, actually, if he gains stealth he can attack immediately. The only time you can hit him without him being in stealth is the 2 seconds between stealth. Oh, except even then he has a talent for permanent invisibility, which makes even that not work.

    This is what + Fade (delay stealth) we must implant
    Plus potions or jungle Buffs to see the enemy siluet , regadles if he has stealth

    We dont have to implement it, because its already implemented. There is no way to gain stealth without a delay (other than a trait noone uses) on thief. I hate repeating myself, so Im not going to do it again.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    As I stated in another thread adding 10 sec reveal CD on stealth, if thief takes damage would reward good play and punish bad play. A good thief with its evades and teleportation skills should be able to still be able to stack stealth,set up their ambush and attack. After their ambush burst if they use their many evades to avoid being hit they can still stealth and decide to stay engaged or to disengage. If a thief makes a bad play and is hit after its engagement than it should be punished with a 10 sec stealth reveal CD. This still allows a good thief to 100% keep its playstyle and punishes thieves who fail to use their evades to avoid damage.

    What that does is make the permastealth oneshot, or general out of combat stealth remain broken, while making in-combat stealth go from "basically unusable" to "literally unusable". its a terrible idea.

    No what it does is still allows the assassin class enough stealth uptime through stacking to still cover ground to engage with a ambush or for disengagment. If a thief makes a good play and engages with a burst and follows up with its attacks while using its evades properly avoiding damage it suffers zero penalties to its current playstyle but if it is struck gets punished with the 10 sec reveal CD removing one of two of its carry fail safes that allow it to leave any fight before dying at will. If a thief still wants to disengage during that cooldown it will have its teleports via utilities or infiltrator arrow.
    This allows a good thief to keep its playstyle that its accustomed to throughout all these years but punishes it slightly if mistakes are made.

    Yes, thats what I said. It makes out of combat stealth remain untouched, and in-combat stealth even more useless. Despite the fact that out of combat stealth is the problem, and in-combat stealth is already useless. Besides you seem to think its at all doable to avoid 100% of damage as a thief after bursting (or even while bursting). Spoiler: Its not. At all. You might as well just say "stealth can now only be used out of combat for cheesy oneshots". Which is one of the changes that would make stealths design even worse than it already is.

    Oh and it breaks a couple Mesmer and Engineer skills.

    Out of combat stealth isn't really a issue, a assassin class should be able set up ambushes etc.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    That build is an easy kill lol. Now p/d is suddenly a problem?
    ps - do you have some kind of rss feed or something to alert you whenever thief related stuff gets posted on youtube? it's hilarious. You could actually be spending all this time creatively thinking about sane fixes for thief players but instead chose to go down the toxic road. Please, if anything see how this isn't a good look.

    Power, Condition and Bunker is how Guild Wars 2 balance itself. Just like everyone else,Thief Profession adjusts itself with the meta of choice.

    The Toxic road in all of this is and why this isn't a good look is...... for the past 8 years......there is nothing new to this

    -No Lessons Were Learned-

    1. Thief Profession can still +1 shot
    2. Thief Profession condition is still Toxic
    3. Thief Profession can still perma-stealth
    4. Thief Profession can still stack stealth
    5. Thief Profession Mechanics and Skills remain Toxic
    6. Thief Profession Teleport continue to be exploitable
    7. Thief Profession is still Bad Design

    The only remedy to this is for a complete redesign or to completely remove this profession altogether

    until than......Guild Wars will never coexist with Toxicity

    As I've said before, you just straight up hate thief. You base your position on that emotional reaction rather than relying on on any logical argument. It's fine to hate the class, just admit it for what it is dude.

    On a more personal note, be careful how you quote the Bible. I don't imagine God likes His words being taken out of context any more than we do.

    As someone indifferent I think thief getting a rework to remove stealth, and give them more interesting/fun tools would be good for everyone. Thieves would feel better and people would probably enjoy fighting them more. Leave stealth to say... one elite spec? Like thats dead-eyes gimick and its strictly tied to them due to the way they function, but core and daredevil rely more on fluid movements and precise strikes. Turn shadow arts into shadow magic, and make them have a form of magic of their very own as it already feels as if it is magic. Make them feel unique to what their aesthetic and role within fantasy, and fantasy worlds are at this stage in the game and make them stand apart from rogues.

    This then would give new E-specs and our current ones a defined role, at least better and more defined with what we have now.

    Core= Brawler, based on under-handed tactics but more sustained fights.
    Daredevil= quicker but squishier, based on shut-down builds and quick bursts followed by escapes.
    Deadeye=Stealthy, burst with limited value due to its single target potential and the fact that stealth can't be stacked or made permanent anymore.
    future=anything

    Using personal and group stealth is interesting and fun. I would not feel good about losing stealth entirely apart from the one build that has enough re-stealth effects and both obvious visual and audible tells to be shut down consistently but it being so obvious makes it the build that gets other builds nerfed by consequence. I don't find sparkly clowds of particle effects interesting or fun but in no way am I going to expect someone else's game play to be squashed because I need a handicap.

    Im not asking for any of that, im merely stating that stealth needs to be far more limited. I don't care either way I love chasing down thieves regardless of the outcome; The thrill of the hunt and all that. But still I do understand peoples gripes, its annoying for a thief to go stealth and then be so far off that they just port due to being out of combat especially durring a fun encounter.

    I say give them a more brawler style, make them more like a faster more kill focused warrior. Warrior is about attrition a lot of the time; Where as thief should at least in core be about blitzing you with lightning fast attacks. It shouldn't be limited to stealthing which most of the time is what all thieves do, they all run stealth and they all run it because its their most useful tool. Giving them better tools and making stealth a limited gimmick means its easier to balance the class; As a Rev player I empathize with you but this is the same argument that has been made against my class every-time the prune it of its unique depth. So sadly Sometimes we just have to compromise and submit to the fact, that our unique flavor may not be healthy for the over-all game. (I do agree it shouldn't matter, but thats not the world we live in.)

    For the record I love thieves, im leveling one currently infact. So don't take this as a slight~