Does anyone else hate relying on healers/support? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Does anyone else hate relying on healers/support?

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  • It's not just that people don't know how to play the game. A lot of people can't. Hell, after a couple of updates and server changes I can't do good DPS anymore. At my apex I only hit about 80% of Snowcrows' numbers, even if I use the same build and same gear and same tactic and same buffs and same rotation. Regardless of how much I practice, it's like that magic 6k additional damage just doesn't exist. I'm not alone in this, either.

    This is one of the biggest criticisms I have for the DPS system in this game. It is convoluted and difficult, and thus it is prone to variance from a lot of other places. In an ideal game, peak DPS on a static target should be a reasonable expectation with only moderate effort. The difficulty of the game should come from the enemies and the environment, not from fighting the interface.

    The giraffe is an animal which, for sociopolitical arguments, I like to pretend does not exist.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I hate, that there's still holy trinity: chrono, warrior, druid

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭

    The main healer will always be my favorite role in any group PvE. One of the reasons why I enjoy raids as much as I do.
    That said, the over-reliance on healers nowadays can be rather silly. Most people are simply so used to having around everywhere. Makes you wonder if they ever managed to play through any dungeon or Fractal before HoT.

    Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs. Henry Ford

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Henry.5713 said:
    The main healer will always be my favorite role in any group PvE. One of the reasons why I enjoy raids as much as I do.
    That said, the over-reliance on healers nowadays can be rather silly. Most people are simply so used to having around everywhere. Makes you wonder if they ever managed to play through any dungeon or Fractal before HoT.

    The answer to that is no.
    Most people didn't touch fractals in their prime pre-hot same can be said of dungeons.

    It was pretty obvious on the old forums (sample size i know) but there was a thread that polled people who were excited for raids and asked what their previous experiences were in the game and something like less than 10% had achieved personal level 50. That should tell you the baseline of this game when it comes to what players were used to back then.

  • Healers make things more fun for me. Either it allows me to focus on things I find more fun, IE optimizing dps, or it allows me to make minor mistakes without it being disastrous. GW2 is such a punishing game without a healer. being 100% on all the time isn't fun.

    More importantly, healers can be fun to play. Relying on healers, at worst, might make things a bit less fun for you ( Although I don't get that). From the perspective of a healer however, the world pre HOT where healers were unneeded didn't make things a bit less fun, it made it basically impossible to do the thing they found fun. And That just sucks.

  • Deepcuts.9740Deepcuts.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    I main a harrier druid most of the time.
    Last night, during a daily recommended run I decided to switch over to a full viper's condi druid because I felt like I was over healing and some extra damage would speed thing along. No "healer" in lfg description.
    My word I was so wrong. People were going splat all over the place and of course some poor soul thought it should blame the druid because I was not healing enough. And we were not even at the 1st boss, just trash mobs.
    People truly got used to being healed all the time and nowadays don't even think about dodging, positioning or other boring stuff like that. Social awkwardness for too many people is considered a beneficial buff not a damaging one.
    I might have caught a bad batch of players (all 200+ masteries) for that daily recommended, but my impression is that the type of batch I got yesterday is representative.
    I know there are players good enough so they won't need strong healing even on highest fractal levels, but again, just my impression, those are a tiny minority.
    I also know a lot of people keep saying the druid is mainly for buffs. That is not what I usually see.

    To answer the op: I enjoy relying on others in mmorpgs, otherwise I would just play a single player game.
    The problem is over reliance and people getting used to be carried while skipping intended tactics, standing in AoE all day long and trampling each other while having social awkwardness. All this while considering the healer not that important to the party's success.

  • Can you people stop with this holy trinity talk? Nobody told you to run chrono. If you dont want boons and easy tanking, dont run it. If you dont want banner buffs for dps increase for the whole group dont use them. Dont need heals or might? Dont run druid and go kill world bosses istead.

  • Zunki.3916Zunki.3916 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2018

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    It's not just that people don't know how to play the game. A lot of people can't. Hell, after a couple of updates and server changes I can't do good DPS anymore. At my apex I only hit about 80% of Snowcrows' numbers, even if I use the same build and same gear and same tactic and same buffs and same rotation. Regardless of how much I practice, it's like that magic 6k additional damage just doesn't exist. I'm not alone in this, either.

    This is one of the biggest criticisms I have for the DPS system in this game. It is convoluted and difficult, and thus it is prone to variance from a lot of other places. In an ideal game, peak DPS on a static target should be a reasonable expectation with only moderate effort. The difficulty of the game should come from the enemies and the environment, not from fighting the interface.

    The game is balanced around 25%-50% of SC Damage though, I don't really see issues, or are you taggling world record speed clears? Then yes, it's an issue. At qT Damage Levels the difficulty just strait up dissapears. That makes it even more obvious that the game is balanced around MUCH less. Look at their 100cm run, it looks like the greatest joke ever existed, most mechanics are not even there really.

    Viable != Optimal

    Not viable = You only get carried, 10 players with a build as "viable as yours" can't properly do it.

  • @Zunki.3916 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    It's not just that people don't know how to play the game. A lot of people can't. Hell, after a couple of updates and server changes I can't do good DPS anymore. At my apex I only hit about 80% of Snowcrows' numbers, even if I use the same build and same gear and same tactic and same buffs and same rotation. Regardless of how much I practice, it's like that magic 6k additional damage just doesn't exist. I'm not alone in this, either.

    This is one of the biggest criticisms I have for the DPS system in this game. It is convoluted and difficult, and thus it is prone to variance from a lot of other places. In an ideal game, peak DPS on a static target should be a reasonable expectation with only moderate effort. The difficulty of the game should come from the enemies and the environment, not from fighting the interface.

    The game is balanced around 25%-50% of SC Damage though, I don't really see issues, or are you taggling world record speed clears? Then yes, it's an issue. At qT Damage Levels the difficulty just strait up dissapears. That makes it even more obvious that the game is balanced around MUCH less. Look at their 100cm run, it looks like the greatest joke ever existed, most mechanics are not even there really.

    I don't know what taggling means. Please define. It's not about joining speed clears, either: I usually find out that I'm expected to match Snowcrows when someone with no warning starts screeching about the issue after the first or second boss.

    For any group activity, you're going to encounter two barriers: the design wall, and the community wall. It doesn't matter how small one barrier is if you can't climb over the other one. Being capable of beating content at 25% DPS doesn't mean squat if nobody will take you. Even if the game eats my inputs, cancels skills it shouldn't, and regularly throws half-second delays between initiating attacks, I'm better off than most. There are still more players who have it far worse than I do. GW2 has become more and more computer intensive as time has gone on, and the new challenges in the game require faster reaction time than the older content did. You don't hear much about it here, because non-raiders tend to stay away from the raid forum, but there are plenty of players who don't do this kind of content because their systems can't handle it.

    The giraffe is an animal which, for sociopolitical arguments, I like to pretend does not exist.

  • I hate sometime to be forced to play with others anet give uss solo mode raids already

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I despise the idea of needing healers, or being a healer, or being locked into a "role" at all, there is nothing worse then a game designed around needing to babysit each other, it's akin to playing half a character. How anyone could even remotely like such an idea as being dependent on needing someone else to enable your game play, I will never understand, but.. you know.. a bunch of players wanted it, so Anet took their really nice system of balanced self sufficient classes, gutted it, and warped it into some hackneyed amalgam of role based game play, and that is what you have to play today. Enjoy!

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I have no problem with it, and one of the reasons why I find T4 more relaxing to play than T3, and even feel that because of Chrono/Druid, T4 is easier than T3.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2018

    The problem isn't, that you have to rely on support.

    The problem is, that the only good supports are chrono for boons, druid for spirits and might, warriors for banners.

    The other support classes are just really bad compared to those 3 in raids.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I despise the idea of needing healers, or being a healer, or being locked into a "role" at all, there is nothing worse then a game designed around needing to babysit each other, it's akin to playing half a character. How anyone could even remotely like such an idea as being dependent on needing someone else to enable your game play, I will never understand, but.. you know.. a bunch of players wanted it, so Anet took their really nice system of balanced self sufficient classes, gutted it, and warped it into some hackneyed amalgam of role based game play, and that is what you have to play today. Enjoy!

    It's called teamplay. How can anyone like the idea of playing instanced content not together but as 5 independed entities that would be perhaps even more efficieny alone than in a team?

    Also that only applies to raids and even there you can complete many encounters without a healer if you don't get hit by mechanics.
    The fractal speedrun meta doesn't even include a healer anymore since months now.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2018

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I despise the idea of needing healers, or being a healer, or being locked into a "role" at all, there is nothing worse then a game designed around needing to babysit each other, it's akin to playing half a character. How anyone could even remotely like such an idea as being dependent on needing someone else to enable your game play, I will never understand, but.. you know.. a bunch of players wanted it, so Anet took their really nice system of balanced self sufficient classes, gutted it, and warped it into some hackneyed amalgam of role based game play, and that is what you have to play today. Enjoy!

    It's called teamplay. How can anyone like the idea of playing instanced content not together but as 5 independed entities that would be perhaps even more efficieny alone than in a team?

    Also that only applies to raids and even there you can complete many encounters without a healer if you don't get hit by mechanics.
    The fractal speedrun meta doesn't even include a healer anymore since months now.

    No. Team play is when you play with people because you want to, in fact there is no greater team play and mutual respect among players than when they play together even if they each could do better alone, because then, and only then, they are playing together because they want to, and the group is formed from an appreciation of each other as individuals, and not treating each other simply a means to an end.

    Forced Group Encounters, like Raids and CM's in GW2, are not team play and they never will be. They are nothing more than a form of coercion more akin to bribery then anything else, getting people who otherwise might not want to play together, to work together simply for the sake of their own personal gain, because they can't do it alone. That is not Team Play.. it never was.. and it never will be.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I despise the idea of needing healers, or being a healer, or being locked into a "role" at all, there is nothing worse then a game designed around needing to babysit each other, it's akin to playing half a character. How anyone could even remotely like such an idea as being dependent on needing someone else to enable your game play, I will never understand, but.. you know.. a bunch of players wanted it, so Anet took their really nice system of balanced self sufficient classes, gutted it, and warped it into some hackneyed amalgam of role based game play, and that is what you have to play today. Enjoy!

    It's called teamplay. How can anyone like the idea of playing instanced content not together but as 5 independed entities that would be perhaps even more efficieny alone than in a team?

    Also that only applies to raids and even there you can complete many encounters without a healer if you don't get hit by mechanics.
    The fractal speedrun meta doesn't even include a healer anymore since months now.

    No. Team play is when you play with people because you want to, in fact there is no greater team play and mutual respect among players than when they play together even if they each could do better alone, because then, and only then, they are playing together because they want to, and the group is formed from an appreciation of each other as individuals, and not treating each other simply a means to an end.

    Forced Group Encounters, like Raids and CM's in GW2, are not team play and they never will be. They are nothing more than a form of coercion more akin to bribery then anything else, getting people who otherwise might not want to play together, to work together simply for the sake of their own personal gain, because they can't do it alone. That is not Team Play.. it never was.. and it never will be.

    Teamplay also includes splitting the responsibilities so everyone has less tasks but can focus on them more and get a better result. Like in team sports (which is also not teamplay by your definition as many do it for their personal gains).

    So all meta events are also Forced Group Encounters? Basically everything that is labeled as a group event?

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I despise the idea of needing healers, or being a healer, or being locked into a "role" at all, there is nothing worse then a game designed around needing to babysit each other, it's akin to playing half a character. How anyone could even remotely like such an idea as being dependent on needing someone else to enable your game play, I will never understand, but.. you know.. a bunch of players wanted it, so Anet took their really nice system of balanced self sufficient classes, gutted it, and warped it into some hackneyed amalgam of role based game play, and that is what you have to play today. Enjoy!

    It's called teamplay. How can anyone like the idea of playing instanced content not together but as 5 independed entities that would be perhaps even more efficieny alone than in a team?

    Also that only applies to raids and even there you can complete many encounters without a healer if you don't get hit by mechanics.
    The fractal speedrun meta doesn't even include a healer anymore since months now.

    No. Team play is when you play with people because you want to, in fact there is no greater team play and mutual respect among players than when they play together even if they each could do better alone, because then, and only then, they are playing together because they want to, and the group is formed from an appreciation of each other as individuals, and not treating each other simply a means to an end.

    Forced Group Encounters, like Raids and CM's in GW2, are not team play and they never will be. They are nothing more than a form of coercion more akin to bribery then anything else, getting people who otherwise might not want to play together, to work together simply for the sake of their own personal gain, because they can't do it alone. That is not Team Play.. it never was.. and it never will be.

    Teamplay also includes splitting the responsibilities so everyone has less tasks but can focus on them more and get a better result. Like in team sports (which is also not teamplay by your definition as many do it for their personal gains).

    So all meta events are also Forced Group Encounters? Basically everything that is labeled as a group event?

    Team sports, on the casual or unprofessional level are done for the love of the game, playing a game of pick up ball at the local playground is no different then playing a game of chess at the park bench, no one gets loots or rewards no matter what the outcome, it's purely for the enjoyment of playing that game, with other people, as such there is no personal gain, so those people are there to have fun with each other, and play a game together, in that venture it is team play.

    Unlike Professional sports where playing that Sport is their job, it is what they are doing for a pay check and make no mistake, they are forced to work together regardless if they like each other or not, which means they are not there to have fun and play a game, there are there to do a job, nothing more, nothing less, which makes them no different then a warehouse workers with an assigned position, or assembly line workers each with a specific task. Which makes that style of role designated grouping like a job, you are being forced to do a specific task and work with other people that you may not even like or want to be with, but will put-up with them for the paycheck.

    Which brings up another point. I will never understand or fathom why anyone would want to turn a game into a work like environment, that is an abomination to the very core idea of what playing a game is all about.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I despise the idea of needing healers, or being a healer, or being locked into a "role" at all, there is nothing worse then a game designed around needing to babysit each other, it's akin to playing half a character. How anyone could even remotely like such an idea as being dependent on needing someone else to enable your game play, I will never understand, but.. you know.. a bunch of players wanted it, so Anet took their really nice system of balanced self sufficient classes, gutted it, and warped it into some hackneyed amalgam of role based game play, and that is what you have to play today. Enjoy!

    It's called teamplay. How can anyone like the idea of playing instanced content not together but as 5 independed entities that would be perhaps even more efficieny alone than in a team?

    Also that only applies to raids and even there you can complete many encounters without a healer if you don't get hit by mechanics.
    The fractal speedrun meta doesn't even include a healer anymore since months now.

    No. Team play is when you play with people because you want to, in fact there is no greater team play and mutual respect among players than when they play together even if they each could do better alone, because then, and only then, they are playing together because they want to, and the group is formed from an appreciation of each other as individuals, and not treating each other simply a means to an end.

    Forced Group Encounters, like Raids and CM's in GW2, are not team play and they never will be. They are nothing more than a form of coercion more akin to bribery then anything else, getting people who otherwise might not want to play together, to work together simply for the sake of their own personal gain, because they can't do it alone. That is not Team Play.. it never was.. and it never will be.

    Teamplay also includes splitting the responsibilities so everyone has less tasks but can focus on them more and get a better result. Like in team sports (which is also not teamplay by your definition as many do it for their personal gains).

    So all meta events are also Forced Group Encounters? Basically everything that is labeled as a group event?

    Team sports, on the casual or unprofessional level are done for the love of the game, playing a game of pick up ball at the local playground is no different then playing a game of chess at the park bench, no one gets loots or rewards no matter what the outcome, it's purely for the enjoyment of playing that game, with other people, as such there is no personal gain, so those people are there to have fun with each other, and play a game together, in that venture it is team play.

    Unlike Professional sports where playing that Sport is their job, it is what they are doing for a pay check and make no mistake, they are forced to work together regardless if they like each other or not, which means they are not there to have fun and play a game, there are there to do a job, nothing more, nothing less, which makes them no different then a warehouse workers with an assigned position, or assembly line workers each with a specific task. Which makes that style of role designated grouping like a job, you are being forced to do a specific task and work with other people that you may not even like or want to be with, but will put-up with them for the paycheck.

    Which brings up another point. I will never understand or fathom why anyone would want to turn a game into a work like environment, that is an abomination to the very core idea of what playing a game is all about.

    They can always do something different. They are not forced to work as a professional player.

    So your ideal game has 100% solo content that can be completet as a group?

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭

    An interesting definition of "teamplay".
    It sounds more like you do not enjoy this kind of combined play. More like you simply prefer to play next to eachother rather than with eachother which would indeed allow you to crack jokes and enjoy eachother's company but also mean you do not have to take any further responsibility or would have to rely on anyone but yourself.
    I don't understand why you'd assume all of these efforts to combine one's strenghts, to cover eachother's weaknesses, to play towards each individual's strong points and thus achieve far more than any of them could have done on their own HAS to be done for the sake rewards and only for the sake of rewards. Teamplay means putting your trust in other people, even placing your safety and well being into their hands.
    It means acting together, taking different roles to be able to support eachother properly. It means working together, achieving things together and ultimately sharing the happiness which comes from achieving your goals.
    I very much enoy playing old Co-Op games and modes long after I stopped caring about the singleplayer version. Figuring out synergies between different races or classes while playing with friends of mine is probably the most enjoyable part of gaming to me. Strategizing and planning as a team while striving to improve our combined play is what it is all about.

    Not to mention that claiming anyone is actually forced to do anything in a "video game" is already rather laughable. Those who force something they do not enjoy on themselves to be able to acquire some virtual trinket have noone but themselves to blame for.

    Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs. Henry Ford

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I despise the idea of needing healers, or being a healer, or being locked into a "role" at all, there is nothing worse then a game designed around needing to babysit each other, it's akin to playing half a character. How anyone could even remotely like such an idea as being dependent on needing someone else to enable your game play, I will never understand, but.. you know.. a bunch of players wanted it, so Anet took their really nice system of balanced self sufficient classes, gutted it, and warped it into some hackneyed amalgam of role based game play, and that is what you have to play today. Enjoy!

    It's called teamplay. How can anyone like the idea of playing instanced content not together but as 5 independed entities that would be perhaps even more efficieny alone than in a team?

    Also that only applies to raids and even there you can complete many encounters without a healer if you don't get hit by mechanics.
    The fractal speedrun meta doesn't even include a healer anymore since months now.

    No. Team play is when you play with people because you want to, in fact there is no greater team play and mutual respect among players than when they play together even if they each could do better alone, because then, and only then, they are playing together because they want to, and the group is formed from an appreciation of each other as individuals, and not treating each other simply a means to an end.

    Forced Group Encounters, like Raids and CM's in GW2, are not team play and they never will be. They are nothing more than a form of coercion more akin to bribery then anything else, getting people who otherwise might not want to play together, to work together simply for the sake of their own personal gain, because they can't do it alone. That is not Team Play.. it never was.. and it never will be.

    Teamplay also includes splitting the responsibilities so everyone has less tasks but can focus on them more and get a better result. Like in team sports (which is also not teamplay by your definition as many do it for their personal gains).

    So all meta events are also Forced Group Encounters? Basically everything that is labeled as a group event?

    Team sports, on the casual or unprofessional level are done for the love of the game, playing a game of pick up ball at the local playground is no different then playing a game of chess at the park bench, no one gets loots or rewards no matter what the outcome, it's purely for the enjoyment of playing that game, with other people, as such there is no personal gain, so those people are there to have fun with each other, and play a game together, in that venture it is team play.

    Unlike Professional sports where playing that Sport is their job, it is what they are doing for a pay check and make no mistake, they are forced to work together regardless if they like each other or not, which means they are not there to have fun and play a game, there are there to do a job, nothing more, nothing less, which makes them no different then a warehouse workers with an assigned position, or assembly line workers each with a specific task. Which makes that style of role designated grouping like a job, you are being forced to do a specific task and work with other people that you may not even like or want to be with, but will put-up with them for the paycheck.

    Which brings up another point. I will never understand or fathom why anyone would want to turn a game into a work like environment, that is an abomination to the very core idea of what playing a game is all about.

    They can always do something different. They are not forced to work as a professional player.

    If they want the rewards from playing being a professional sport player, like big money payouts, Just like if someone wants the rewards from a Raid, they are forced to work together, not because they want to, but because they have to.

    So your ideal game has 100% solo content that can be completet as a group?

    You make it sound like you don't know such games already exist, keep in mind, GW2 was skirting that kind of game design from the onset, they chose to change direction to forced grouping and role based group make up's as a reactionary decision from consumer complaints.

    Also keep in mind Meta Events are more like Block Parties, or Flash Mob kind of things, then any kind of Team Play, where people would gather with a common goal but everyone was there to just have some fun first and foremost, it was not until the complaints by some players that these events were too easy, and needed to be made into more work like situations that made them into what they are today. Why anyone would want to go into the direction of playing some high fantasy game just to be devalued into being a cog in a assembly line to grind out payment from content as opposed to being able to play for the fun and happenstance or enjoying a game and the company of others simply because you want people around, I will never grasp, but there are apparently enough of these people that play GW2 to get this whole game changed to be more their liking.

    It is a tragedy that anyone would want a game like that, But I hope they are happy working at their MMO.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I despise the idea of needing healers, or being a healer, or being locked into a "role" at all, there is nothing worse then a game designed around needing to babysit each other, it's akin to playing half a character. How anyone could even remotely like such an idea as being dependent on needing someone else to enable your game play, I will never understand, but.. you know.. a bunch of players wanted it, so Anet took their really nice system of balanced self sufficient classes, gutted it, and warped it into some hackneyed amalgam of role based game play, and that is what you have to play today. Enjoy!

    It's called teamplay. How can anyone like the idea of playing instanced content not together but as 5 independed entities that would be perhaps even more efficieny alone than in a team?

    Also that only applies to raids and even there you can complete many encounters without a healer if you don't get hit by mechanics.
    The fractal speedrun meta doesn't even include a healer anymore since months now.

    No. Team play is when you play with people because you want to, in fact there is no greater team play and mutual respect among players than when they play together even if they each could do better alone, because then, and only then, they are playing together because they want to, and the group is formed from an appreciation of each other as individuals, and not treating each other simply a means to an end.

    Forced Group Encounters, like Raids and CM's in GW2, are not team play and they never will be. They are nothing more than a form of coercion more akin to bribery then anything else, getting people who otherwise might not want to play together, to work together simply for the sake of their own personal gain, because they can't do it alone. That is not Team Play.. it never was.. and it never will be.

    Teamplay also includes splitting the responsibilities so everyone has less tasks but can focus on them more and get a better result. Like in team sports (which is also not teamplay by your definition as many do it for their personal gains).

    So all meta events are also Forced Group Encounters? Basically everything that is labeled as a group event?

    Team sports, on the casual or unprofessional level are done for the love of the game, playing a game of pick up ball at the local playground is no different then playing a game of chess at the park bench, no one gets loots or rewards no matter what the outcome, it's purely for the enjoyment of playing that game, with other people, as such there is no personal gain, so those people are there to have fun with each other, and play a game together, in that venture it is team play.

    Unlike Professional sports where playing that Sport is their job, it is what they are doing for a pay check and make no mistake, they are forced to work together regardless if they like each other or not, which means they are not there to have fun and play a game, there are there to do a job, nothing more, nothing less, which makes them no different then a warehouse workers with an assigned position, or assembly line workers each with a specific task. Which makes that style of role designated grouping like a job, you are being forced to do a specific task and work with other people that you may not even like or want to be with, but will put-up with them for the paycheck.

    Which brings up another point. I will never understand or fathom why anyone would want to turn a game into a work like environment, that is an abomination to the very core idea of what playing a game is all about.

    They can always do something different. They are not forced to work as a professional player.

    If they want the rewards from playing being a professional sport player, like big money payouts, Just like if someone wants the rewards from a Raid, they are forced to work together, not because they want to, but because they have to.

    So your ideal game has 100% solo content that can be completet as a group?

    You make it sound like you don't know such games already exist, keep in mind, GW2 was skirting that kind of game design from the onset, they chose to change direction to forced grouping and role based group make up's as a reactionary decision from consumer complaints.

    Also keep in mind Meta Events are more like Block Parties, or Flash Mob kind of things, then any kind of Team Play, where people would gather with a common goal but everyone was there to just have some fun first and foremost, it was not until the complaints by some players that these events were too easy, and needed to be made into more work like situations that made them into what they are today. Why anyone would want to go into the direction of playing some high fantasy game just to be devalued into being a cog in a assembly line to grind out payment from content as opposed to being able to play for the fun and happenstance or enjoying a game and the company of others simply because you want people around, I will never grasp, but there are apparently enough of these people that play GW2 to get this whole game changed to be more their liking.

    It is a tragedy that anyone would want a game like that, But I hope they are happy working at their MMO.

    This is why gw 2 in all regard should have single player mode so you can play how you want too

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Not to mention that claiming anyone is actually forced to do anything in a "video game" is already rather laughable. Those who force something they do not enjoy on themselves to be able to acquire some virtual trinket have noone but themselves to blame for.

    I agree, it really is a tragedy that people who wanted role based group forced content didn't just go find a game that already had it available to them, and instead continued to play this game all the while voicing their discontent till some measure was taken to placate them. They really should have followed your advice, and instead ruined a really promising game that could have had honest and fun Team Play as it's core point.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I despise the idea of needing healers, or being a healer, or being locked into a "role" at all, there is nothing worse then a game designed around needing to babysit each other, it's akin to playing half a character. How anyone could even remotely like such an idea as being dependent on needing someone else to enable your game play, I will never understand, but.. you know.. a bunch of players wanted it, so Anet took their really nice system of balanced self sufficient classes, gutted it, and warped it into some hackneyed amalgam of role based game play, and that is what you have to play today. Enjoy!

    It's called teamplay. How can anyone like the idea of playing instanced content not together but as 5 independed entities that would be perhaps even more efficieny alone than in a team?

    Also that only applies to raids and even there you can complete many encounters without a healer if you don't get hit by mechanics.
    The fractal speedrun meta doesn't even include a healer anymore since months now.

    No. Team play is when you play with people because you want to, in fact there is no greater team play and mutual respect among players than when they play together even if they each could do better alone, because then, and only then, they are playing together because they want to, and the group is formed from an appreciation of each other as individuals, and not treating each other simply a means to an end.

    Forced Group Encounters, like Raids and CM's in GW2, are not team play and they never will be. They are nothing more than a form of coercion more akin to bribery then anything else, getting people who otherwise might not want to play together, to work together simply for the sake of their own personal gain, because they can't do it alone. That is not Team Play.. it never was.. and it never will be.

    Teamplay also includes splitting the responsibilities so everyone has less tasks but can focus on them more and get a better result. Like in team sports (which is also not teamplay by your definition as many do it for their personal gains).

    So all meta events are also Forced Group Encounters? Basically everything that is labeled as a group event?

    Team sports, on the casual or unprofessional level are done for the love of the game, playing a game of pick up ball at the local playground is no different then playing a game of chess at the park bench, no one gets loots or rewards no matter what the outcome, it's purely for the enjoyment of playing that game, with other people, as such there is no personal gain, so those people are there to have fun with each other, and play a game together, in that venture it is team play.

    Unlike Professional sports where playing that Sport is their job, it is what they are doing for a pay check and make no mistake, they are forced to work together regardless if they like each other or not, which means they are not there to have fun and play a game, there are there to do a job, nothing more, nothing less, which makes them no different then a warehouse workers with an assigned position, or assembly line workers each with a specific task. Which makes that style of role designated grouping like a job, you are being forced to do a specific task and work with other people that you may not even like or want to be with, but will put-up with them for the paycheck.

    Which brings up another point. I will never understand or fathom why anyone would want to turn a game into a work like environment, that is an abomination to the very core idea of what playing a game is all about.

    They can always do something different. They are not forced to work as a professional player.

    If they want the rewards from playing being a professional sport player, like big money payouts, Just like if someone wants the rewards from a Raid, they are forced to work together, not because they want to, but because they have to.

    So your ideal game has 100% solo content that can be completet as a group?

    You make it sound like you don't know such games already exist, keep in mind, GW2 was skirting that kind of game design from the onset, they chose to change direction to forced grouping and role based group make up's as a reactionary decision from consumer complaints.

    Also keep in mind Meta Events are more like Block Parties, or Flash Mob kind of things, then any kind of Team Play, where people would gather with a common goal but everyone was there to just have some fun first and foremost, it was not until the complaints by some players that these events were too easy, and needed to be made into more work like situations that made them into what they are today. Why anyone would want to go into the direction of playing some high fantasy game just to be devalued into being a cog in a assembly line to grind out payment from content as opposed to being able to play for the fun and happenstance or enjoying a game and the company of others simply because you want people around, I will never grasp, but there are apparently enough of these people that play GW2 to get this whole game changed to be more their liking.

    It is a tragedy that anyone would want a game like that, But I hope they are happy working at their MMO.

    This is why gw 2 in all regard should have single player mode so you can play how you want too

    GW2 is basically playable as single player outside of raids and some specific dungeons like CoE where you can't trigger things alone. This game is still a MMORPG (GW1 was not a MMORPG ArenaNet themselves said it, so no useless comparisions).

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Not to mention that claiming anyone is actually forced to do anything in a "video game" is already rather laughable. Those who force something they do not enjoy on themselves to be able to acquire some virtual trinket have noone but themselves to blame for.

    I agree, it really is a tragedy that people who wanted role based group forced content didn't just go find a game that already had it available to them, and instead continued to play this game all the while voicing their discontent till some measure was taken to placate them. They really should have followed your advice, and instead ruined a really promising game that could have had honest and fun Team Play as it's core point.

    How got this game ruined that you need on some specific raid encounters a trinity? Fractals are perfectly playable without any support even at 99/100 cm. Most raid entcounters don't need a dedicated healer if you can dodge correctly.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2018

    @Henry.5713 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Not to mention that claiming anyone is actually forced to do anything in a "video game" is already rather laughable. Those who force something they do not enjoy on themselves to be able to acquire some virtual trinket have noone but themselves to blame for.

    I agree, it really is a tragedy that people who wanted role based group forced content didn't just go find a game that already had it available to them, and instead continued to play this game all the while voicing their discontent till some measure was taken to placate them. They really should have followed your advice, and instead ruined a really promising game that could have had honest and fun Team Play as it's core point.

    Quite a few players did actually leave the game for this very reason. Many more left because of the previous lack of challenging and even remotely meaningful end game content. Some returned later while others did not.
    It is indeed a tragedy that ArenaNet bothered to provide appropriate content for those interested while not taking anything away from anyone else. Unless we consider removing this game's former status as a "non-trinity" and "non-raiding" game by adding a mostly optinal trinity and completely optional content to be anything close to "taking away".

    Tearing asunder an existing game of team play, ginormous social events, and individually viable builds, in favor devaluing classes into nothing more then task driven cogs in raids.. is not only a stealing the game from them, it is a disservice to what this game could have become, as opposed to the WoW-light that it has devolved into.

    So yes, in this case, there was a theft, the theft of what could have been a great game, with great classes, with fun driven content.. as opposed to the work like situation that exists now.

    I\ll never understand why people can't simply enjoy the game they have, as opposed to wanting to turn it into some other game it is not, but lo and behold, that is what we have here.. and it's no wonder there is no contentment among the community.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • FaboBabo.3581FaboBabo.3581 Member ✭✭✭✭

    this thread made me wanna do some fractals ty (:

    Mirage since Day 1 - It got better!

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    By the way @Henry.5713 , that quote by Henry Ford in your signature "Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs. Henry Ford" is surprisingly fitting for this discussion, as the whole idea of dividing up a complex or large jobs into small repeatable tasks was done because overall people proved too incompetent to be able to handle dealing with the whole task by themselves, which really highlights how I feel about Role Based Classes.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • @STIHL.2489 said:
    By the way @Henry.5713 , that quote by Henry Ford in your signature "Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs. Henry Ford" is surprisingly fitting for this discussion, as the whole idea of dividing up a complex or large jobs into small repeatable tasks was done because overall people proved too incompetent to be able to handle dealing with the whole task by themselves, which really highlights how I feel about Role Based Classes.

    No one forces you to play a role if you want 10 ppl dps play so

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2018

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Not to mention that claiming anyone is actually forced to do anything in a "video game" is already rather laughable. Those who force something they do not enjoy on themselves to be able to acquire some virtual trinket have noone but themselves to blame for.

    I agree, it really is a tragedy that people who wanted role based group forced content didn't just go find a game that already had it available to them, and instead continued to play this game all the while voicing their discontent till some measure was taken to placate them. They really should have followed your advice, and instead ruined a really promising game that could have had honest and fun Team Play as it's core point.

    Quite a few players did actually leave the game for this very reason. Many more left because of the previous lack of challenging and even remotely meaningful end game content. Some returned later while others did not.
    It is indeed a tragedy that ArenaNet bothered to provide appropriate content for those interested while not taking anything away from anyone else. Unless we consider removing this game's former status as a "non-trinity" and "non-raiding" game by adding a mostly optinal trinity and completely optional content to be anything close to "taking away".

    Tearing asunder an existing game of team play, ginormous social events, and individually viable builds, in favor devaluing classes into nothing more then task driven cogs in raids.. is not only a stealing the game from them, it is a disservice to what this game could have become, as opposed to the WoW-light that it has devolved into.

    So yes, in this case, there was a theft, the theft of what could have been a great game, with great classes, with fun driven content.. as opposed to the work like situation that exists now.

    I\ll never understand why people can't simply enjoy the game they have, as opposed to wanting to turn it into some other game it is not, but lo and behold, that is what we have here.. and it's no wonder there is no contentment among the community.

    Now that sounds rather dramatic. There were class-devaluing balance changes long before HoT. There has been a META with specific classes and roles from the start. It simply wasn't as obvious to the casual player. Warriors with banners and later PS warriors, Time Warp mesmers and more than anything DPS elementalists did have their roles defined long before even the developers thought about Druids or Chronomancers. Not to mention the core guardian design which has always pushed them towards a supportive role in PvP and WvW.

    About the quote, an interesting way to read it. Though, not one I agree with. Feels more like they went backwards on that idea. The game used to be easier as far as support roles were concerned. Everyone did their small part of said support but nobody was forced to take the full responsibility. This certainly changed and keeps getting worse. The Fractal support Chronomancer (which is mostly played in combination with a warrior and three full damage dealers) comes to mind. They have absolutely everything pushed on them to allow everyone else to focus on damage dealing (outside of a few minor things).
    The Chronos build the entire car, set everything up perfectly to allow their team to apply a pretty paint job at the end.

    And for the sake of fairness, I sometimes miss the former focus on combo fields and finishers even if I do not dislike how things work now.
    However, evolution is simply inevitable if we wish to stop anything from stagnating. We'd still be using horse carriages if we had refused to let our system of personal transport evolve. There are many downsides to cars but they still allowed our society to do a huge leap. People might dislike certain changes or features introduced with the expansions but they were ultimately needed to allow the game to evolve.

    Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs. Henry Ford

  • @Henry.5713 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Not to mention that claiming anyone is actually forced to do anything in a "video game" is already rather laughable. Those who force something they do not enjoy on themselves to be able to acquire some virtual trinket have noone but themselves to blame for.

    I agree, it really is a tragedy that people who wanted role based group forced content didn't just go find a game that already had it available to them, and instead continued to play this game all the while voicing their discontent till some measure was taken to placate them. They really should have followed your advice, and instead ruined a really promising game that could have had honest and fun Team Play as it's core point.

    Quite a few players did actually leave the game for this very reason. Many more left because of the previous lack of challenging and even remotely meaningful end game content. Some returned later while others did not.
    It is indeed a tragedy that ArenaNet bothered to provide appropriate content for those interested while not taking anything away from anyone else. Unless we consider removing this game's former status as a "non-trinity" and "non-raiding" game by adding a mostly optinal trinity and completely optional content to be anything close to "taking away".

    Tearing asunder an existing game of team play, ginormous social events, and individually viable builds, in favor devaluing classes into nothing more then task driven cogs in raids.. is not only a stealing the game from them, it is a disservice to what this game could have become, as opposed to the WoW-light that it has devolved into.

    So yes, in this case, there was a theft, the theft of what could have been a great game, with great classes, with fun driven content.. as opposed to the work like situation that exists now.

    I\ll never understand why people can't simply enjoy the game they have, as opposed to wanting to turn it into some other game it is not, but lo and behold, that is what we have here.. and it's no wonder there is no contentment among the community.

    Now that sounds rather dramatic. There were class-devaluing balance changes long before HoT. There has been a META with specific classes and roles from the start. It simply wasn't as obvious to the casual player. Warriors with banners and later PS warriors, Time Warp mesmers and more than anything DPS elementalists did have their roles defined long before even the developers thought about Druids or Chronomancers. Not to mention the core guardian design which has always pushed them towards a supportive role in PvP and WvW.

    About the quote, an interesting way to read it. Though, not one I agree with. Feels more like they went backwards on that idea. The game used to be easier as far as support roles were concerned. Everyone did their small part of said support but nobody was forced to take the full responsibility. This certainly changed and keeps getting worse. The Fractal support Chronomancer (which is mostly played in combination with a warrior and three full damage dealers) comes to mind. They have absolutely everything pushed on them to allow everyone else to focus on damage dealing (outside of a few minor things).
    The Chronos build the entire car, set everything up perfectly to allow their team to apply a pretty paint job at the end.

    And for the sake of fairness, I sometimes miss the former focus on combo fields and finishers even if I do not dislike how things work now.
    However, evolution is simply inevitable if we wish to stop anything from stagnating. We'd still be using horse carriages if we had refused to let our system of personal transport evolve. There are many downsides to cars but they still allowed our society to do a huge leap. People might dislike certain changes or features introduced with the expansions but they were ultimately needed to allow the game to evolve.

    Raids requires specialising. And old meta had classes blocked from group content. Like ranger and necro. Basicly pre hot the meta was pretty much dps.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Not to mention that claiming anyone is actually forced to do anything in a "video game" is already rather laughable. Those who force something they do not enjoy on themselves to be able to acquire some virtual trinket have noone but themselves to blame for.

    I agree, it really is a tragedy that people who wanted role based group forced content didn't just go find a game that already had it available to them, and instead continued to play this game all the while voicing their discontent till some measure was taken to placate them. They really should have followed your advice, and instead ruined a really promising game that could have had honest and fun Team Play as it's core point.

    Quite a few players did actually leave the game for this very reason. Many more left because of the previous lack of challenging and even remotely meaningful end game content. Some returned later while others did not.
    It is indeed a tragedy that ArenaNet bothered to provide appropriate content for those interested while not taking anything away from anyone else. Unless we consider removing this game's former status as a "non-trinity" and "non-raiding" game by adding a mostly optinal trinity and completely optional content to be anything close to "taking away".

    Tearing asunder an existing game of team play, ginormous social events, and individually viable builds, in favor devaluing classes into nothing more then task driven cogs in raids.. is not only a stealing the game from them, it is a disservice to what this game could have become, as opposed to the WoW-light that it has devolved into.

    So yes, in this case, there was a theft, the theft of what could have been a great game, with great classes, with fun driven content.. as opposed to the work like situation that exists now.

    I\ll never understand why people can't simply enjoy the game they have, as opposed to wanting to turn it into some other game it is not, but lo and behold, that is what we have here.. and it's no wonder there is no contentment among the community.

    Now that sounds rather dramatic. There were class-devaluing balance changes long before HoT. There has been a META with specific classes and roles from the start. It simply wasn't as obvious to the casual player. Warriors with banners and later PS warriors, Time Warp mesmers and more than anything DPS elementalists did have their roles defined long before even the developers thought about Druids or Chronomancers. Not to mention the core guardian design which has always pushed them towards a supportive role in PvP and WvW.

    About the quote, an interesting way to read it. Though, not one I agree with. Feels more like they went backwards on that idea. The game used to be easier as far as support roles were concerned. Everyone did their small part of said support but nobody was forced to take the full responsibility. This certainly changed and keeps getting worse. The Fractal support Chronomancer (which is mostly played in combination with a warrior and three full damage dealers) comes to mind. They have absolutely everything pushed on them to allow everyone else to focus on damage dealing (outside of a few minor things).
    The Chronos build the entire car, set everything up perfectly to allow their team to apply a pretty paint job at the end.

    And for the sake of fairness, I sometimes miss the former focus on combo fields and finishers even if I do not dislike how things work now.
    However, evolution is simply inevitable if we wish to stop anything from stagnating. We'd still be using horse carriages if we had refused to let our system of personal transport evolve. There are many downsides to cars but they still allowed our society to do a huge leap. People might dislike certain changes or features introduced with the expansions but they were ultimately needed to allow the game to evolve.

    Raids requires specialising. And old meta had classes blocked from group content. Like ranger and necro. Basicly pre hot the meta was pretty much dps.

    Considering that there were only dungeons and non-CM Fractals, there was hardly a need for healing or the majority of defenses avaible even back then. Still, Phalanx Strength Warriors have been a thing for years. Mesmers were taken for their portals and WP, thieves were used for their stealth. There have always been roles and certain classes which could be considered a must-have for their buffs and utilities.
    Raids, with maybe a few exceptions in terms of bosses, could be done in a similar fashion. None of the timers enforce the outmost efficiency which would indeed be running the META. You are perfectly fine without support Druids or Mesmers, Firebrands or Renegades but it requires everyone to adjust their builds a little, to focus on more than just one task.

    Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs. Henry Ford

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2018

    @Henry.5713 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Not to mention that claiming anyone is actually forced to do anything in a "video game" is already rather laughable. Those who force something they do not enjoy on themselves to be able to acquire some virtual trinket have noone but themselves to blame for.

    I agree, it really is a tragedy that people who wanted role based group forced content didn't just go find a game that already had it available to them, and instead continued to play this game all the while voicing their discontent till some measure was taken to placate them. They really should have followed your advice, and instead ruined a really promising game that could have had honest and fun Team Play as it's core point.

    Quite a few players did actually leave the game for this very reason. Many more left because of the previous lack of challenging and even remotely meaningful end game content. Some returned later while others did not.
    It is indeed a tragedy that ArenaNet bothered to provide appropriate content for those interested while not taking anything away from anyone else. Unless we consider removing this game's former status as a "non-trinity" and "non-raiding" game by adding a mostly optinal trinity and completely optional content to be anything close to "taking away".

    Tearing asunder an existing game of team play, ginormous social events, and individually viable builds, in favor devaluing classes into nothing more then task driven cogs in raids.. is not only a stealing the game from them, it is a disservice to what this game could have become, as opposed to the WoW-light that it has devolved into.

    So yes, in this case, there was a theft, the theft of what could have been a great game, with great classes, with fun driven content.. as opposed to the work like situation that exists now.

    I\ll never understand why people can't simply enjoy the game they have, as opposed to wanting to turn it into some other game it is not, but lo and behold, that is what we have here.. and it's no wonder there is no contentment among the community.

    Now that sounds rather dramatic. There were class-devaluing balance changes long before HoT. There has been a META with specific classes and roles from the start. It simply wasn't as obvious to the casual player. Warriors with banners and later PS warriors, Time Warp mesmers and more than anything DPS elementalists did have their roles defined long before even the developers thought about Druids or Chronomancers. Not to mention the core guardian design which has always pushed them towards a supportive role in PvP and WvW.

    About the quote, an interesting way to read it. Though, not one I agree with. Feels more like they went backwards on that idea. The game used to be easier as far as support roles were concerned. Everyone did their small part of said support but nobody was forced to take the full responsibility. This certainly changed and keeps getting worse. The Fractal support Chronomancer (which is mostly played in combination with a warrior and three full damage dealers) comes to mind. They have absolutely everything pushed on them to allow everyone else to focus on damage dealing (outside of a few minor things).
    The Chronos build the entire car, set everything up perfectly to allow their team to apply a pretty paint job at the end.

    And for the sake of fairness, I sometimes miss the former focus on combo fields and finishers even if I do not dislike how things work now.
    However, evolution is simply inevitable if we wish to stop anything from stagnating. We'd still be using horse carriages if we had refused to let our system of personal transport evolve. There are many downsides to cars but they still allowed our society to do a huge leap. People might dislike certain changes or features introduced with the expansions but they were ultimately needed to allow the game to evolve.

    Raids requires specialising. And old meta had classes blocked from group content. Like ranger and necro. Basicly pre hot the meta was pretty much dps.

    Considering that there were only dungeons and non-CM Fractals, there was hardly a need for healing or the majority of defenses avaible even back then. Still, Phalanx Strength Warriors have been a thing for years. Mesmers were taken for their portals and WP, thieves were used for their stealth. There have always been roles and certain classes which could be considered a must-have for their buffs and utilities.
    Raids, with maybe a few exceptions in terms of bosses, could be done in a similar fashion. None of the timers enforce the outmost efficiency which would indeed be running the META. You are perfectly fine without support Druids or Mesmers, Firebrands or Renegades but it requires everyone to adjust their builds a little, to focus on more than just one task.

    Then it takes longer since all must focus on staying allow wich would also kick out a majority of classes out the mode like rangers, necromanchers since their dmg is to low if they focus on survival rather than attack . but they could remove the mechanics then zerker meta could return. but gw 2 has always had support the problem was it was ignored in favor of pure dps since why take longer to complete content. Support roles adds more specialised group and also helps group i think they changed was for nearly every build was damage only or like mesmer who was there for their portal not anything else.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2018

    @Henry.5713 said:
    About the quote, an interesting way to read it. Though, not one I agree with. Feels more like they went backwards on that idea. The game used to be easier as far as support roles were concerned. Everyone did their small part of said support but nobody was forced to take the full responsibility. This certainly changed and keeps getting worse. The Fractal support Chronomancer (which is mostly played in combination with a warrior and three full damage dealers) comes to mind. They have absolutely everything pushed on them to allow everyone else to focus on damage dealing (outside of a few minor things).
    The Chronos build the entire car, set everything up perfectly to allow their team to apply a pretty paint job at the end.

    You're agreement on that quote is not necessary, that it is what it is.

    So moving along.

    Now see, that is what is wrong with the whole role or task based system. In your explanation, everyone ends up waiting on the Chrono, just like in Archaic games like EQ, where invariably everyone ended up waiting on the Cleric. IMHO, there is no worse game design then when you have players waiting on some specific class to enable their game play as opposed to being able to just grab some friends, take whatever you have, and go on an adventure and have some fun.

    See role based games are actually counter intuitive to community based games, because at the core of role games, when something goes wrong, they can't help each other, so they end up looking for the someone to blame for the failure.. who did not do their mandatory task like a good little cog!

    Now, Originally, GW2 had a great design where you could play whatever class you liked, and could join your friends and go have fun, as everyone took full responsibility for the run, anyone could step in and do whatever needed to get done, needed some support, healing, buffs, DPS, whatever, anyone could handle it for a bit, so unlike role based play where everyone only focuses on their task, it was a team of people all actually working together towards a common goal, and could back each other up as needed, if someone made a mistake, others could step in and carry, recover, and move on. If someone died, the rest of the team was not hapless to continue on and finish the encounter. Which is really what a good team play is about, where no one is stuck waiting on someone else to enable them to keep going.

    Which, going back to EQ, which started this whole strict role based classes, if while doing a dungeon crawl, like in lower Guk, for example, if the Cleric or the Enchanter Died, it did not matter what other classes made up the party, you were suddenly at a choice of two, die where you stand, or flee. That was to me, the worst way to build class design that I could have ever thought of. I mean, the whole "Trinity" ideas as it were, was horrible at it's core, it basically meant if anyone single one of them failed, everyone failed. Really? This is what people find fun? Being hapless and helpless if someone else makes a mistake? That is what people think is good team play?

    No, Good Team Play, is where we as a team can work together, we can cover for each other, and we can get the job done, that means we can all step up or step in for any role to keep things moving along, to assist each other.

    To give an analogy.

    Role Based Play is like a Professional Sport Team, where you have a bunch of entertainers that are getting paid to do a specific task, each one basking in their own glory about how well they can do their specific chosen task and the rewards they will reap for doing so. All the wile they never actually need to care about the other members of their team, or what they are doing, since they are myopic in their task, they are powerless to do anything if another team member screws up anyway.

    I really don't see the attraction to that kind of game play, but obviously enough people must love this.

    Team Play or Team Work, as it were, is like a Military Unit. Yes, they may have a demolitions expert, but everyone else on the team is also trained in Demolitions, just in case they need to step in and handle the situation, or just help the expert out getting things done faster. Equally so, everyone is trained in Combat, Physical, Blade, and Gun. The whole team work in this venture is that each person on that team might excel and be the best at a specific task, all of them are cross trained so that all of them can cover for each other, in case something goes wrong, as such, all of them are looking out for each other and assisting each other as needed.

    I for the life of me, cannot fathom why anyone would not want to play that kind of game, which is what GW2 was at first made to be like.

    With that said, as odd as this may be, people hated being able to step in and step up to help each other so much, they got the game to become where everyone is now waiting on a chrono and/or druid.

    And for the sake of fairness, I sometimes miss the former focus on combo fields and finishers even if I do not dislike how things work now.
    However, evolution is simply inevitable if we wish to stop anything from stagnating. We'd still be using horse carriages if we had refused to let our system of personal transport evolve. There are many downsides to cars but they still allowed our society to do a huge leap. People might dislike certain changes or features introduced with the expansions but they were ultimately needed to allow the game to evolve.

    The thing here that you seem to miss, is that GW2 was an evolution from it's predecessors like EQ and WoW, as such, seeing people want to go back to Role based Classes, is a devolution, it akin to watching angry masses unhappy with their Tesla Roadster and demanding we go back to Horse and Wagons.

    I don't get it.. I will never get it.. and I cannot for the life of me see any benefit to what happened to this game. It's a sad tale.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Relying on a healer? Yes I must admit I don't like it much, although it does make fights much easier, including certain Raid bosses. But why hate "support"? Even when the game was young, you didn't just take 5-dps. There was always some variety and more than enough support around, stacking might, stealth (for dungeon skips), reflects, condition removal and so on was ALWAYS part of the game.

  • Ralistu.1965Ralistu.1965 Member ✭✭
    edited October 19, 2018

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    I'm not quoting a particular thing you said, because, well, everything you said i can see and feel.

    It's the reason I use GW2 as a main (now) or second MMO to play. I play WoW as well. Thats the holy trinity game where you absolutely need a healer or GG. Raiding becomes a second job. It's actually pathetic. I play games to relax and have fun, not work. (which is why i can never be a youtuber. twitch maybe, but not a youtuber). tanking (at least back in B.C. and WotLK) was so exhausting and stressful that it made me quit for 2 years.

    GW2 for me is or was so completely different that it became a shining example of, we can be different and still be good. Action based combat, no need for a dedicated healer, when played right all classes should be able to take a hit and keep themselves alive. If you wanted to be a more supportive player, go for it. Sold on the spot. Seriously, I preordered off of what they said they wanted to do for GW2 (it also helped that I played GW1 for a number of years as well lol).

    Then they added stand alone raids for like 5% of the player base. Why they did this and not more open world stuff is beyond me. There are 2 wickedly good raiding games out there right now in both FF and WoW. Why the player base cant go back to those is beyond me. GW2 is not those games.

    I refuse to raid in this game. I refuse to help it get better. I bash it everytime i get the chance. if i want to raid, I go play WoW, and even then.. what if im not in the mood to raid at 7pm on wednesday? or what if i dont want to play my chrono today (in the case of GW2).

    Now that being said, i do like the fact that supportive roles are better off now. It was pointless to have a water based ele with healing gear pre-HoT. I think the player base of any game generally wants "easy mode". I remember the zerker gear craze to speed clear runs pre-hot. and now, people just want to watch t.v. while they play so they need that "back up support" because they arent really playing...

    paying attention use to be the most important aspect to this game

    Characters: Iiri Ventari, Sylvari - Scourge; Ralistu, Asura - Mirage; Olaf Sifhalla, Norn - Dragonhunter; Jahin Vabb, Sylvari - Renegade; Shonek Alcazia, Human - Weaver (Tempest soonish).
    Backburner: Englaka, Asura - Ranger. Ikotag, Charr - Thief

  • @Ralistu.1965 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    I'm not quoting a particular thing you said, because, well, everything you said i can see and feel.

    It's the reason I use GW2 as a main (now) or second MMO to play. I play WoW as well. Thats the holy trinity game where you absolutely need a healer or GG. Raiding becomes a second job. It's actually pathetic. I play games to relax and have fun, not work. (which is why i can never be a youtuber. twitch maybe, but not a youtuber). tanking (at least back in B.C. and WotLK) was so exhausting and stressful that it made me quit for 2 years.

    GW2 for me is or was so completely different that it became a shining example of, we can be different and still be good. Action based combat, no need for a dedicated healer, when played right all classes should be able to take a hit and keep themselves alive. If you wanted to be a more supportive player, go for it. Sold on the spot. Seriously, I preordered off of what they said they wanted to do for GW2 (it also helped that I played GW1 for a number of years as well lol).

    Then they added stand alone raids for like 5% of the player base. Why they did this and not more open world stuff is beyond me. There are 2 wickedly good raiding games out there right now in both FF and WoW. Why the player base cant go back to those is beyond me. GW2 is not those games.

    I refuse to raid in this game. I refuse to help it get better. I bash it everytime i get the chance. if i want to raid, I go play WoW, and even then.. what if im not in the mood to raid at 7pm on wednesday? or what if i dont want to play my chrono today (in the case of GW2).

    Now that being said, i do like the fact that supportive roles are better off now. It was pointless to have a water based ele with healing gear pre-HoT. I think the player base of any game generally wants "easy mode". I remember the zerker gear craze to speed clear runs pre-hot. and now, people just want to watch t.v. while they play so they need that "back up support" because they arent really playing...

    paying attention use to be the most important aspect to this game

    Gw2 raids compared to other games is a joke. And there is more than 5% raiders

  • @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Ralistu.1965 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    I'm not quoting a particular thing you said, because, well, everything you said i can see and feel.

    It's the reason I use GW2 as a main (now) or second MMO to play. I play WoW as well. Thats the holy trinity game where you absolutely need a healer or GG. Raiding becomes a second job. It's actually pathetic. I play games to relax and have fun, not work. (which is why i can never be a youtuber. twitch maybe, but not a youtuber). tanking (at least back in B.C. and WotLK) was so exhausting and stressful that it made me quit for 2 years.

    GW2 for me is or was so completely different that it became a shining example of, we can be different and still be good. Action based combat, no need for a dedicated healer, when played right all classes should be able to take a hit and keep themselves alive. If you wanted to be a more supportive player, go for it. Sold on the spot. Seriously, I preordered off of what they said they wanted to do for GW2 (it also helped that I played GW1 for a number of years as well lol).

    Then they added stand alone raids for like 5% of the player base. Why they did this and not more open world stuff is beyond me. There are 2 wickedly good raiding games out there right now in both FF and WoW. Why the player base cant go back to those is beyond me. GW2 is not those games.

    I refuse to raid in this game. I refuse to help it get better. I bash it everytime i get the chance. if i want to raid, I go play WoW, and even then.. what if im not in the mood to raid at 7pm on wednesday? or what if i dont want to play my chrono today (in the case of GW2).

    Now that being said, i do like the fact that supportive roles are better off now. It was pointless to have a water based ele with healing gear pre-HoT. I think the player base of any game generally wants "easy mode". I remember the zerker gear craze to speed clear runs pre-hot. and now, people just want to watch t.v. while they play so they need that "back up support" because they arent really playing...

    paying attention use to be the most important aspect to this game

    Gw2 raids compared to other games is a joke. And there is more than 5% raiders

    "are" a joke.

    sorry. 10%. there are not as many as you think there is.

    Characters: Iiri Ventari, Sylvari - Scourge; Ralistu, Asura - Mirage; Olaf Sifhalla, Norn - Dragonhunter; Jahin Vabb, Sylvari - Renegade; Shonek Alcazia, Human - Weaver (Tempest soonish).
    Backburner: Englaka, Asura - Ranger. Ikotag, Charr - Thief

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2018

    @Ralistu.1965 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Ralistu.1965 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    I'm not quoting a particular thing you said, because, well, everything you said i can see and feel.

    It's the reason I use GW2 as a main (now) or second MMO to play. I play WoW as well. Thats the holy trinity game where you absolutely need a healer or GG. Raiding becomes a second job. It's actually pathetic. I play games to relax and have fun, not work. (which is why i can never be a youtuber. twitch maybe, but not a youtuber). tanking (at least back in B.C. and WotLK) was so exhausting and stressful that it made me quit for 2 years.

    GW2 for me is or was so completely different that it became a shining example of, we can be different and still be good. Action based combat, no need for a dedicated healer, when played right all classes should be able to take a hit and keep themselves alive. If you wanted to be a more supportive player, go for it. Sold on the spot. Seriously, I preordered off of what they said they wanted to do for GW2 (it also helped that I played GW1 for a number of years as well lol).

    Then they added stand alone raids for like 5% of the player base. Why they did this and not more open world stuff is beyond me. There are 2 wickedly good raiding games out there right now in both FF and WoW. Why the player base cant go back to those is beyond me. GW2 is not those games.

    I refuse to raid in this game. I refuse to help it get better. I bash it everytime i get the chance. if i want to raid, I go play WoW, and even then.. what if im not in the mood to raid at 7pm on wednesday? or what if i dont want to play my chrono today (in the case of GW2).

    Now that being said, i do like the fact that supportive roles are better off now. It was pointless to have a water based ele with healing gear pre-HoT. I think the player base of any game generally wants "easy mode". I remember the zerker gear craze to speed clear runs pre-hot. and now, people just want to watch t.v. while they play so they need that "back up support" because they arent really playing...

    paying attention use to be the most important aspect to this game

    Gw2 raids compared to other games is a joke. And there is more than 5% raiders

    "are" a joke.

    sorry. 10%. there are not as many as you think there is.

    But if they enjoy it like the insane ppl who plays cm t4s why make it hardee

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