Does anyone else hate relying on healers/support? - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Does anyone else hate relying on healers/support?

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  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2018

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    No, what is really happening, is people are given a rudimentary method that works, and then as opposed to looking for other solutions and expanding their of skills, branching off and challenging themselves, they just parrot what their betters have told them to do.

    Yes. Because that "rudimentary" method works better than those other solutions. It doesn't matter if they "parrot" what they've been told by their "betters" or not - the end result is still exactly the same. The tactics they use is the best one. There's no gain whatsoever in picking those other options over it.

    No.. it did not work BETTER, it was just Crudely Effective, and had a low skill cap to reproduce, as such it was the easiest tactic, not the best one. Which is ironic that people that would praise the use of the most crude simpleton methods would be the ones asking for more "challenge" in their game, don't you think?

    None of the options you mentioned worked any better, and all of them had, as you yourself said, higher skill cap. That's why it was (and still is) the best tactics. Why should you use a more complicated tactics with a higher failure rate if it offers you no advantage over an easier one? That's a question you haven't answered so far.

    Reflects seem to work great, not that I used them, but @Gorbulas.1354 mentioned being able to kill Lupin in one hit, that, is awesome! In fact that is epic, and that is well played and amazing tactics at work. I so wish I had played with them, to see that kind of skill and play knowledge unfold.. no.. I often stood behind the pillar like the rest of the scrubs, or used what I could think of when in a group that thought that tactic was tacky. But I wager things like reflects also ripped Kholer apart as well, as it was explained that it made most boss battles a joke. No doubt it has a higher skill demand, and thus a higher chance of failure, but it was an overall better tactic, for those with the skills to pull it off.

    Now, as for your question. You shouldn't .. I mean really, why would anyone seek pointless challenge when tedium works?

    Do you now See the Irony of the same people that praise simplistic rudimentary methods asking for more challenge?

    Now, your turn, answer me this, Why should Aent try to challenge you, when you won't even challenge yourself?

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Reflects seem to work great, not that I used them, but @Gorbulas.1354 mentioned being able to kill Lupin in one hit, that, is awesome! In fact that is epic, and that is well played and amazing tactics at work. I so wish I had played with them, to see that kind of skill and play knowledge unfold.. no.. I often stood behind the pillar like the rest of the scrubs, or used what I could think of when in a group that thought that tactic was tacky. But I wager things like reflects also ripped Kholer apart as well, as it was explained that it made most boss battles a joke.

    Nope. The reflected damage on him is not high enough to immediately burst him. In case of Lupi it is different, because Lupi shoots a lot of missiles (and their damage adds up to a really massive amount even when each individual one is not so strong). Additionally, reflects (or stability) do nothing about the second reason why groups wiped on Kholer originally. His summons.
    Pillar is situated in location where all those summons conveniently appear within melee range or really close by, easy to pull, which makes dealing with them easy. With it, most players end up not even being aware that this mechanic exists, but in his original spawn point you ended up fighting within a crowd of mobs that were attacking you from all sides. This can be really painful in less skilled groups.

    No doubt it has a higher skill demand, and thus a higher chance of failure, but it was an overall better tactic, for those with the skills to pull it off.

    Why exactly it is a better tactics when it offers absolutely no advantage over the pillar one? Because it seeme you are only considering it better for artistic purposes, not for its efficiency.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957

    I want you to know.. That I noticed you have not addressed my question.. or my answer to your actual question.

    Till you do.. we are done.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Now, your turn, answer me this, Why should Aent try to challenge you, when you won't even challenge yourself?

    This question has a very simple answer: because those are two completely different types of challenge. You need to understand the difference between an actual challenge and a self imposed challenge.

    The actual challenge is finding and then executing the best possible method(s) of defeating the content, the self imposed challenge is intentionally using worse tactics just to make the content artificially more challenging. It's like the ages old argument of "if you want the game to be hard, just play with white gear!" which is incredibly silly, that's not challenge, that's tedium. I want the encounter to challenge me to find the best method of defeating it, not to kitten myself using lackluster methods of beating content "just because".

    Which is why dungeons were never an actual challenge once you figured most bosses were loot pinatas and why a solo community was formed around them.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Now, your turn, answer me this, Why should Aent try to challenge you, when you won't even challenge yourself?

    This question has a very simple answer: because those are two completely different types of challenge. You need to understand the difference between an actual challenge and a self imposed challenge.

    The actual challenge is finding and then executing the best possible method(s) of defeating the content, the self imposed challenge is intentionally using worse tactics just to make the content artificially more challenging. It's like the ages old argument of "if you want the game to be hard, just play with white gear!" which is incredibly silly, that's not challenge, that's tedium. I want the encounter to challenge me to find the best method of defeating it, not to kitten myself using lackluster methods of beating content "just because".

    Which is why dungeons were never an actual challenge once you figured most bosses were loot pinatas and why a solo community was formed around them.

    I think it can be best summarised with people wanting to feel strong.

    Which doesn't work as well as people force themselves to be weaker.

    Also I feel like stihls premise. Is wrong from the beginning as their where people who did make I harder for themselves as you mentioned.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    @Astralporing.1957

    I want you to know.. That I noticed you have not addressed my question.. or my answer to your actual question.

    Till you do.. we are done.

    As for your question - I'm not there for challenge, so i don't really care.

    And as for your answer to my question... i still don't know why do you think there's any value in going for a more complicated and more failure-prone tactics when a simple, easy and hard to fail one is available. You haven't answered that one yet.

    And if you don't actually think so (as your "you shouldn't" might suggest), then why are you arguing otherwise? Because if you intentionally are arguing for a point you don't believe to be true, then yes, we are done.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Isnt this going off topic went from not wanting support classes to dungeon tactics to challenging content?

  • there is no trinity in gw2.
    anet said it.

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    there is no trinity in gw2.
    anet said it.

    Gw 2 has no true trinity like other games like your class isnt locked to 1 role but can do many roles if geared right

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    @Astralporing.1957

    I want you to know.. That I noticed you have not addressed my question.. or my answer to your actual question.

    Till you do.. we are done.

    As for your question - I'm not there for challenge, so i don't really care.

    And as for your answer to my question... i still don't know why do you think there's any value in going for a more complicated and more failure-prone tactics when a simple, easy and hard to fail one is available. You haven't answered that one yet.

    And if you don't actually think so (as your "you shouldn't" might suggest), then why are you arguing otherwise? Because if you intentionally are arguing for a point you don't believe to be true, then yes, we are done.

    If you are just there for easy farm content. why ask for it to be challenging?

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    No, what is really happening, is people are given a rudimentary method that works, and then as opposed to looking for other solutions and expanding their of skills, branching off and challenging themselves, they just parrot what their betters have told them to do.

    Yes. Because that "rudimentary" method works better than those other solutions. It doesn't matter if they "parrot" what they've been told by their "betters" or not - the end result is still exactly the same. The tactics they use is the best one. There's no gain whatsoever in picking those other options over it.

    No.. it did not work BETTER, it was just Crudely Effective, and had a low skill cap to reproduce, as such it was the easiest tactic, not the best one. Which is ironic that people that would praise the use of the most crude simpleton methods would be the ones asking for more "challenge" in their game, don't you think?

    None of the options you mentioned worked any better, and all of them had, as you yourself said, higher skill cap. That's why it was (and still is) the best tactics. Why should you use a more complicated tactics with a higher failure rate if it offers you no advantage over an easier one? That's a question you haven't answered so far.

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    I hate how necessary support chrono is because I want to play power chrono DPS or mirage in peace but have to instead joinLFG's as a different class to not be expected to go support chrono so I can swap back to mesmer DPS when the group fills and receive complaints about playing mesmer DPS instead of DH/weaver/daredevil.

    Chrono/druid unique utility is simply too oppressive to comp diversity.

    That has nothing to do with chrono superiority and a lot with power mesmer being subpar compared to other dps options (Mirage i see noone complaining about if it's one of the bosses it's good on. Only when you try to use it where it't not that good that people might ask for switch - but then, the same is with other dps-es).

    Everything is subpar when not compared to faceroll deadeyes or overtuned weavers.

    Problem is that it's an additional layer of trouble when you're playing a class that could spec to be the most OP support spec in the game but choose to spec into a perfectly viable but not top tier DPS instead.

    It really doesn't matter. There was a time where 13-14k DPS on fractals was considered great and damage creep for some builds has been so obscene that now we can't even play whatever DPS spec because what was great 13-14k DPS before is now "trash" because Anet overbuffed something else.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    No, what is really happening, is people are given a rudimentary method that works, and then as opposed to looking for other solutions and expanding their of skills, branching off and challenging themselves, they just parrot what their betters have told them to do.

    Yes. Because that "rudimentary" method works better than those other solutions. It doesn't matter if they "parrot" what they've been told by their "betters" or not - the end result is still exactly the same. The tactics they use is the best one. There's no gain whatsoever in picking those other options over it.

    No.. it did not work BETTER, it was just Crudely Effective, and had a low skill cap to reproduce, as such it was the easiest tactic, not the best one. Which is ironic that people that would praise the use of the most crude simpleton methods would be the ones asking for more "challenge" in their game, don't you think?

    None of the options you mentioned worked any better, and all of them had, as you yourself said, higher skill cap. That's why it was (and still is) the best tactics. Why should you use a more complicated tactics with a higher failure rate if it offers you no advantage over an easier one? That's a question you haven't answered so far.

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    I hate how necessary support chrono is because I want to play power chrono DPS or mirage in peace but have to instead joinLFG's as a different class to not be expected to go support chrono so I can swap back to mesmer DPS when the group fills and receive complaints about playing mesmer DPS instead of DH/weaver/daredevil.

    Chrono/druid unique utility is simply too oppressive to comp diversity.

    That has nothing to do with chrono superiority and a lot with power mesmer being subpar compared to other dps options (Mirage i see noone complaining about if it's one of the bosses it's good on. Only when you try to use it where it't not that good that people might ask for switch - but then, the same is with other dps-es).

    Everything is subpar when not compared to faceroll deadeyes or overtuned weavers.

    Problem is that it's an additional layer of trouble when you're playing a class that could spec to be the most OP support spec in the game but choose to spec into a perfectly viable but not top tier DPS instead.

    It really doesn't matter. There was a time where 13-14k DPS on fractals was considered great and damage creep for some builds has been so obscene that now we can't even play whatever DPS spec because what was great 13-14k DPS before is now "trash" because Anet overbuffed something else.

    Almost all the power dps builds are almost equal in casual fractal runs now. Only organized triple dps comps have small outliers. But even then the dps balance is better than ever. There was a time when weaver was like 80% stronger on siax than every other option for example.
    DE for example is really not that great in fractals and on lots of raid encounters. Weaver isn't even top on most raid bosses and 2 aren't best in slot for fractals either since the latest DH buff.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Grogba.6204 said:
    Why even dodge/stability against kholer when reflects broke the majority of dungeon fights.

    Lupicus. Feedback/Wall of Reflection.
    /Thread
    :wink:

    It's even simpler: stack next to the pillar and kill him before he even uses his pull skill. It requires the players to know how to play and be competent of course, terrible groups will dodge, use stability, or reflects to beat Kholer and most dungeon bosses. They are open world loot pinatas anyway

    Or even simpler. Kill him where he stands to save the 5secs he needs to run to the corner. You just need to cc him for that once. That corner is just an old fgs strategy relict.

  • It's a shame that such an attitude exists because raids are based upon obsolete mechanics of stacking various attacks against a time gate requiring certain levels of dps. Given software (AI and the like) why can't MMOs base boss mechanics upon raid group composition forcing different tactics by the group instead of simplistic fixed phases of dps checks. It's shocking that MMOs still use old methodologies for their customers.

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @curtegg.5216 said:
    It's a shame that such an attitude exists because raids are based upon obsolete mechanics of stacking various attacks against a time gate requiring certain levels of dps. Given software (AI and the like) why can't MMOs base boss mechanics upon raid group composition forcing different tactics by the group instead of simplistic fixed phases of dps checks. It's shocking that MMOs still use old methodologies for their customers.

    It used to, but then people did it enough times to figure out that doing mechanics was more of a hassle than it was worth, and just stacking dps achieved thesame results albeit a bit faster. Also you're assuming anet is using the newest and best software there is, memory serves, they haven't upgraded their engine since release.

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @curtegg.5216 said:
    It's a shame that such an attitude exists because raids are based upon obsolete mechanics of stacking various attacks against a time gate requiring certain levels of dps. Given software (AI and the like) why can't MMOs base boss mechanics upon raid group composition forcing different tactics by the group instead of simplistic fixed phases of dps checks. It's shocking that MMOs still use old methodologies for their customers.

    Yes like when we were getting a random fractal... see how that worked (hint: it didn't).

  • zencow.3651zencow.3651 Member ✭✭✭

    @curtegg.5216 said:
    It's a shame that such an attitude exists because raids are based upon obsolete mechanics of stacking various attacks against a time gate requiring certain levels of dps. Given software (AI and the like) why can't MMOs base boss mechanics upon raid group composition forcing different tactics by the group instead of simplistic fixed phases of dps checks. It's shocking that MMOs still use old methodologies for their customers.

    Because it's a model allows all players in a group to know what to do to succeed in the content. It allows people to 'learn' the mechanic and know they are guaranteed to complete that content once they have developed a certain degree of proficiency. Humans as part of our nature like to see patterns that they can predict.

    Advanced AI, randomness and unpredictability aren't factors that a majority of people actually find enjoyable.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2018

    @zencow.3651 said:

    @curtegg.5216 said:
    It's a shame that such an attitude exists because raids are based upon obsolete mechanics of stacking various attacks against a time gate requiring certain levels of dps. Given software (AI and the like) why can't MMOs base boss mechanics upon raid group composition forcing different tactics by the group instead of simplistic fixed phases of dps checks. It's shocking that MMOs still use old methodologies for their customers.

    Because it's a model allows all players in a group to know what to do to succeed in the content. It allows people to 'learn' the mechanic and know they are guaranteed to complete that content once they have developed a certain degree of proficiency. Humans as part of our nature like to see patterns that they can predict.

    Advanced AI, randomness and unpredictability aren't factors that a majority of people actually find enjoyable.

    In short.. No one really likes challenge.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • zencow.3651zencow.3651 Member ✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    In short.. No one really likes challenge.

    That's not true. Just because unpredictability can be more challenging doesn't predictable stuff isn't.
    And ultimately, the main challenge will always be the same: surviving while dealing out the maximal amount of DPS.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2018

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @zencow.3651 said:

    @curtegg.5216 said:
    It's a shame that such an attitude exists because raids are based upon obsolete mechanics of stacking various attacks against a time gate requiring certain levels of dps. Given software (AI and the like) why can't MMOs base boss mechanics upon raid group composition forcing different tactics by the group instead of simplistic fixed phases of dps checks. It's shocking that MMOs still use old methodologies for their customers.

    Because it's a model allows all players in a group to know what to do to succeed in the content. It allows people to 'learn' the mechanic and know they are guaranteed to complete that content once they have developed a certain degree of proficiency. Humans as part of our nature like to see patterns that they can predict.

    Advanced AI, randomness and unpredictability aren't factors that a majority of people actually find enjoyable.

    In short.. No one really likes challenge.

    PvP players do (usually, anyway).
    What PvE players like is the feeling they've met the challenge and overcame it. Not once, but permanently. And that of course can happen if the "challenge" is really, truly challenging only during the learning part.

    Notice, that in the latter case, it also works if the challenge exists only within the mind of the player. In general, MMOs have become very proficient in creating illusion of challenge for players to "overcome". Basically, it doesn't really matter if the content is challenging, as long as you manage to persuade the players that it is.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • zencow.3651zencow.3651 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    PvP players do (usually, anyway)

    Except everyone uses the easy auto-pilot Spellbreaker, Mirage, Firebrand, Scourge and Soulbeast builds.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2018

    @zencow.3651 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    PvP players do (usually, anyway)

    Except everyone uses the easy auto-pilot Spellbreaker, Mirage, Firebrand, Scourge and Soulbeast builds.

    I didn't say they like to lose. Or that all are good at it. But, if they didn't like the challenge, they wouldn't play the pvp format (well, outside of reward track farming).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • zencow.3651zencow.3651 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I didn't say they like to lose. Or that all are good at it. But, if they didn't like the challenge, they wouldn't play the pvp format (well, outside of reward track farming).

    Obtaining the rewards is a challenge itself.

  • This is my first post in these forums and I logged in specifically to comment on this topic. I only play heal spec Druid in Fractals it is what I enjoy and its fun for me. It makes me play the game from a different perspective. I am a six year vet and I appreciate something other than just trying to achieve the maximum amount of damage possible. Who remembers having to ping their gear after joining a CoF group way back when... it just gets old.

    So when all the new gear and specialization came out for ranger I welcomed the change. I think this game has something for everyone and I believe that is what arena net intended. There are a lot of game modes I do not engage in because it is not how I like to play the game but that does not mean it should be removed or reworked to my liking. It simply means go find the areas of the game that allows you to play the way you would like.

    If you feel High level fractals and raids require you to use a healer and you do not wish to then don't but you may have a hard time finding a group quickly that agrees with your way of thinking. What it boils down to is no one stops anyone from playing the game the way they want but you have to have an open mind and realize that you may be in the minority.

    I could easily say that there is to much focus on Meta DPS because that is what mainly people talk about in most cases. I do a lot of LFG runs and I have never removed a person from the group from not holding their weight. I just take it as an opportunity to fine tune my healing skills. I find its better to play the game in a positive state of mind rather than looking for something to pick out and harp on.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @zencow.3651 said:

    @curtegg.5216 said:
    It's a shame that such an attitude exists because raids are based upon obsolete mechanics of stacking various attacks against a time gate requiring certain levels of dps. Given software (AI and the like) why can't MMOs base boss mechanics upon raid group composition forcing different tactics by the group instead of simplistic fixed phases of dps checks. It's shocking that MMOs still use old methodologies for their customers.

    Because it's a model allows all players in a group to know what to do to succeed in the content. It allows people to 'learn' the mechanic and know they are guaranteed to complete that content once they have developed a certain degree of proficiency. Humans as part of our nature like to see patterns that they can predict.

    Advanced AI, randomness and unpredictability aren't factors that a majority of people actually find enjoyable.

    In short.. No one really likes challenge.

    PvP players do (usually, anyway).
    What PvE players like is the feeling they've met the challenge and overcame it. Not once, but permanently. And that of course can happen if the "challenge" is really, truly challenging only during the learning part.

    Notice, that in the latter case, it also works if the challenge exists only within the mind of the player. In general, MMOs have become very proficient in creating illusion of challenge for players to "overcome". Basically, it doesn't really matter if the content is challenging, as long as you manage to persuade the players that it is.

    The only thing that PvE MMO players like is the feeling that they have loot that they feel someone else can't get, the what they hate is when someone else can get loot they can't.

    Challenge never gets involved in that equation.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @mrauls.6519 said:
    For context I play dragonhunter. To maximize DPS, I feel like I have to throw away a lot of survivability tools. I do 'great' damage, sure, but my ability to stay alive is not that great. In most situations, I feel like 1 screw up can land you in a world of pain. Just venting/ranting. In PvP I can bring condi clear, heals, etc. and still do enough damage to get the job done. I just wish it was the same for raiding/fractals. One thing I hated about the holy trinity was having to rely on others. Meh

    Without supports Raids would just 5 dpses playing next to each other, fractals would be 5 dpses playing next to each other. This is opposed to the current situation where you actually play together and not just next to each other, even in PvP or WvW supports can be "essential".

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

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