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Does anyone else hate relying on healers/support?


mrauls.6519

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For context I play dragonhunter. To maximize DPS, I feel like I have to throw away a lot of survivability tools. I do 'great' damage, sure, but my ability to stay alive is not that great. In most situations, I feel like 1 screw up can land you in a world of pain. Just venting/ranting. In PvP I can bring condi clear, heals, etc. and still do enough damage to get the job done. I just wish it was the same for raiding/fractals. One thing I hated about the holy trinity was having to rely on others. Meh

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It is for fractals, you do not need a healer even for CMs at the highest level of play. The fact that many take one is a simple insurance against mistakes. If you up your game though it is more efficient without one.

This is somewhat similar to raids where you can reduce the required healers to 1 or even completely replace them for some boss fights if your group is good enough.

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@"mrauls.6519" said:For context I play dragonhunter. To maximize DPS, I feel like I have to throw a way a lot of survivability tools. I do 'great' damage, sure, but my ability to live is not that great.f2, f3, heal for dh are a really good sustain set. You might also bring the aegis shout in the third utility slot (dps loss is negligible in most situations)

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Deepcuts.9740" said:So, any of you two has a link to some CM videos showing full DPS comp. without a healer?

100CM 3 weaver, 1 chrono, 1 bannerslave meta comp:

There is also 100CM solo videos of bosses.

Same goes for 99CM.

Nice run.With that dps, things go fast.I call myself lucky if my party can sustain 15k :)But usually, it falls under 10k :(

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I want to point out that the linked video is probably completely useless and irrelevant to OP. If you have 5 players of that ability who can burst a boss so fast that it literally never attacks (i.e. you kill it in a single break bar) , then yes healers are pretty irrelevant. Seriously, do you guys have any appreciation for how much practice that takes? The amount of wiping, and optimization? That isn't realistic for lfg pug runs. Did you notice that around 4 mins in there is editing, and that when they go in to fight ark, there are 2 sets of banners already there? Even if they decided to precast banners, why would there be 2 sets? Its because they wiped trying to get a good pull.

If someone is in this forum, asking questions, they are almost certainly not in that situation. If you had 4 elite players to play with, you would just ask them these questions directly, rather than post on the forums.

@mrauls.6519 Is almost certainly pugging, i.e. joining 4 random players, some of whom think no healer is a good idea, and some who are so inexperienced they don't even healers are in the game. OP for casual fractal pugging, you should absolutely run a healer until your experienced enough to actually know whether or not you need one and have 4 friends joining you of similar skill level, and yes it is seriously annoying. What I personally do, when I join a fractal pug, if there is no healer I run a healer chrono, if there is a druid (condi or magi) I go typical boon/dps chrono. This gives me control over cc, boons, and healing. If those roles are already filled, only then will I go dps.

@phs.6089 said:Fractals never meant yo be played with a healer.

Yeah well fractals were not designed with social awkwardness originally either.

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@thrag.9740 said:I want to point out that the linked video is probably completely useless and irrelevant to OP. If you have 5 players of that ability who can burst a boss so fast that it literally never attacks (i.e. you kill it in a single break bar) , then yes healers are pretty irrelevant. Seriously, do you guys have any appreciation for how much practice that takes? The amount of wiping, and optimization? That isn't realistic for lfg pug runs. Did you notice that around 4 mins in there is editing, and that when they go in to fight ark, there are 2 sets of banners already there? Even if they decided to precast banners, why would there be 2 sets? Its because they wiped trying to get a good pull.

If someone is in this forum, asking questions, they are almost certainly not in that situation. If you had 4 elite players to play with, you would just ask them these questions directly, rather than post on the forums.

@mrauls.6519 Is almost certainly pugging, i.e. joining 4 random players, some of whom think no healer is a good idea, and some who are so inexperienced they don't even healers are in the game. OP for casual fractal pugging, you should absolutely run a healer until your experienced enough to actually know whether or not you need one and have 4 friends joining you of similar skill level, and yes it is seriously annoying. What I personally do, when I join a fractal pug, if there is no healer I run a healer chrono, if there is a druid (condi or magi) I go typical boon/dps chrono. This gives me control over cc, boons, and healing. If those roles are already filled, only then will I go dps.

@phs.6089 said:Fractals never meant yo be played with a healer.

Yeah well fractals were not designed with social awkwardness originally either.

I never said playing without healer is easy, hence why many people decide to take one (even for normal T4).

I refuted that a healer is NEEDED. They weren't needed in the past and the only content which they should be needed for is challenge modes and even those they are not mandatory. Every single fractal currently in game can be completed without a healer present, including challenge modes.

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Chrono/Druid are mostly for buffing dps, any heals are extra and not actually needed other than to allow you to face tank attacks for higher dps. It's also not really possible to make pve content that doesn't rely on sustain at all for the average player, either everyone has to have high sustain on an individual level [then everything cna be clared by everyone effortlessly] or there needs to be potions; and I would rather have to deal with having a healer than worrying about potions. One thing I like about GW2 is you don't really need heals, and there's no need to worry about obnoxious potions for sustain.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

I never said playing without healer is easy, hence why many people decide to take one (even for normal T4).

I refuted that a healer is NEEDED. They weren't needed in the past and the only content which they should be needed for is challenge modes and even those they are not mandatory. Every single fractal currently in game can be completed without a healer present, including challenge modes.

Oh well then let me be clear. I don't disagree with what you said here. But what your saying almost vacuous. If for every single piece of content in the game, there is at least a single example of that content being cleared without a healer, your statement is proven true. These examples exist, therefore it is true. In fact, even if there were content that was truly impossible to clear without a healer, it would be impossible to prove that a healer was required. Its the old saying, 'you can't prove a negative'.

So yes, your statement is true. A healer is never necessary. But that isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about OP venting about how frustrating their fractal clears have been. Chances are those clears are happening in a pug environment. What SC can do in a single edited video is irrelevant because SC and pug fractals have different goals. Pugs are typically looking for smooth consistent kills with complete strangers of varying skill level (i.e. safe strats) , not world records.

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@thrag.9740 said:

I never said playing without healer is easy, hence why many people decide to take one (even for normal T4).

I refuted that a healer is NEEDED. They weren't needed in the past and the only content which they should be needed for is challenge modes and even those they are not mandatory. Every single fractal currently in game can be completed without a healer present, including challenge modes.

Oh well then let me be clear. I don't disagree with what you said here. But what your saying almost vacuous. If for every single piece of content in the game, there is at least a single example of that content being cleared without a healer, your statement is proven true. These examples exist, therefore it is true. In fact, even if there were content that was truly impossible to clear without a healer, it would be impossible to prove that a healer was required. Its the old saying, 'you can't prove a negative'.

So yes, your statement is true. A healer is never necessary. But that isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about OP venting about how frustrating their fractal clears have been. Chances are those clears are happening in a pug environment. What SC can do in a single edited video is irrelevant because SC and pug fractals have different goals. Pugs are typically looking for smooth consistent kills with complete strangers of varying skill level (i.e. safe strats) , not world records.

It's actually very problematic that a lot of pugs don't really want smooth consistent skills (aka safe strats) and at times they actually want to mimic what the speedrunners are doing. We wouldn't have full zerk weavers trying to pug fractal CMs otherwise, when they could be comfy holosmiths, DHs or even Reapers. A lot of CM pug groups also do not take druids/healers in and expect the Chrono to do what healing is needed.

Aside from what you said (which I somewhat agree) I think people also sabotage themselves by requiring a healer in groups but pretending they can play things like Weaver and Deadeye in the intense environment of fractals. This is somewhat also true for raids where people could take DHs to KC but insist that their 10k DPS weaver is the best option because it is the best option for speedrunners.

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IMO people translate the raid metateam in fractals, but the needs (and the difficulties) are not the same.Sometimes in PUG it's seems inconceivable for players to rush the fractal without chrono; like "Oh my god we're gonna drop 80% of our DPS and die against trashmobs" "Oh my god we won't burst Subject 5, I don"t know what to do in that case I ragequit". No, man it's ok, we have 4 DPS, mights fury, just adapt.I have also seen "OMG Druid why don't you heal ? I'm dead half the time", dude we want druid to be powerbuff, not your personnal babysitter, learn to play/place.

I also feel more secure with support classes, because you can't give too much confidence to others players. But you still have to learn to play,use mechanicals... Sometimes we do fractals with guild with 5"DPS" (edit: means no healing power/boonshare class) it works well, sometimes we have "metateam pug" but thick headed people who just spam their rotation without grasp the situation, expecting other player will heal them to heaven, put reflect, etc. (Example the "no pain no gain" pls Spellbreakers/chrono ... remove boons ...)

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@"Cyninja.2954" said:It is for fractals, you do not need a healer even for CMs at the highest level of play. The fact that many take one is a simple insurance against mistakes. If you up your game though it is more efficient without one.

This is somewhat similar to raids where you can reduce the required healers to 1 or even completely replace them for some boss fights if your group is good enough.

Basically the "healer" druid namely was/is mostly picked for its dmg buffing capabilities.

Iirc nowadays in fractals the optimal setup doesnt even run a "healer" u run a dps soulbeast instead.

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There are alot of things wrong with your post:

  • Healers are not strictly required in this game except in a few raid encounters.
  • There was always healers in all PvE content, its just that they always ran Berserker before, Where do you think water fields, etc. come from? If you "wasted time" having tools like this in your build then you were usually (though not always) sacrificing DPS.
  • When you do "rely" on healers it makes for slower encounters, but they are guaranteed of success and low frustration.

The last one is important, as it changed the meta game for alot of pugs and small (<5 people) parties and guilds.

Overhauling the game to allow people to play pure supports (lets be honest, no one "just heals" in this game, they use a wide variety of powerful support tools), opened the PvE game up to thousands of people who cannot play DPS for many reasons, such as having disabilities, or just because they prefer to help instead of hurt. It was the best thing to happen to this game since it was released.

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Honestly I know the feeling. In t4s I rarely drop Arcane Shield from my bar on weaver. The healer is not always the best, not always extant, and crap happens all the time. I'd rather safely do good DPS then be dead with theoretically better DPS.

This affects different classes differently. The biggest offender IMO is Weaver, since no matter what DPS method you use you'll always end up in a vulnerable position.

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Good support is just as much a part of the game as good DPS. Elite groups record ridiculous numbers because the quality of their support is just as good as their DPS. This type of content is designed to encourage such comps to prepare players for raids. You don’t even need to be that good at the game to do such content but the fact remains that there are better builds than others even in competitive play. If you don’t like it don’t do it. Elite static groups take 40-45mins to clear CMs/T4s/Recs with the no healer comps shown previously. By comparison most pugs take at least double the time. If you want to play your own build or w/e that’s up to you but don’t be surprised that your runs are taking forever.

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As someone who plays healer/support firebrand i have to passionately disagree with you.

This game should provide options for player who want to play different play styles. I personally enjoy playing as a healer. Not everyone wants to play DPS or some self-sustaining dps hybrid. As a matter of fact I would even love if Anet further differentiates profession roles.

And I don't understand how can one screw up land you in a world of pain if you have dedicated healer in your party. That can happen only if you ignore some specific boss related mechanics that have some near instant kill consequences or something. Meaning, those are things that even with better self-sustain you wont survive.

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This is far the only game where you dont need to rely on 2 classes everytime and everywhere, it just makes things faster on high level content. And sure, its quite mandatory on Raids unless youre a freak that likes to solo hard stuff.Yet you complain.

Also this game is very open with compositions. Sure some classes works better than others, but out of the 9 classes (not counting elites) like half of them can function as healers, and I think there are more options that gives aclarity and quickness other than chrono? its just that Chrono/Durid combo is the god tier of the support comp, but that doesn't even matters on T4 (and probably CMs). There are other games that only certain jobs works exclusively as the DPS classes on a group, not here, you can literal DPS with every job.

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@"mrauls.6519" said:For context I play dragonhunter. To maximize DPS, I feel like I have to throw a way a lot of survivability tools. I do 'great' damage, sure, but my ability to live is not that great. In most situations, I feel like 1 screw up can land you in a world of pain. Just venting/ranting. In PvP I can bring condi clear, heals, etc. and still do enough damage to get the job done. I just wish it was the same for raiding/fractals. One thing I hated about the holy trinity was having to rely on others. Meh

Yes ... only because it strayed from one the original reasons I chose to play the game. Now I'm dealing with people who think the only way to play the game is with a tank and healer and 8 DPS ... the only thing that saves this game from the fate of having to use that ONE engineered composition needed to win a PVE encounter is the low threshold needed to succeed.

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