PvP or PvE?

As we all know, Gw2 is a very heavy PvE based kind of game, but also have a pretty decent PvP aspect of it, weither its SPvP, WvW or even GvG, though my question regards a youtube video I have seen that seems to circle around the idea that Gw2 currently is falling, and therefor needs more content that regards PvE (Raids, Fractals, Dungeons etc).

Based on personal thoughts, I would suggest that the main income/players would come from PvP, Gw2 got a very original PvP structure of being able to have a 60vs60 fight without totally disrupting a computer. Or even interesting 15v15 guild vs guild fights that do bring a lot of people to twitch. This comes of cause out of the core principle of competition, and also the massive flow on sites like twitch/youtube that attracts PvP rather than PvE players. But either way, I can not argue that PvE does not create a massive flow of players through different aspects like gem store/mounts

So the question to the normal forum writer is presented as, what do you think will make players come to Gw2, and why?

I generally would guess the main aspect of comments would center around PvE being a better for people to come in, since as mentioned previously, the game got a very strong PvE aspect.But I am kinda biased towards PvP, studying economics and peoples behavior buying and also kinda intrigued as to what the normal consumer would suggest.

In advance, thank you for answering

@zengara.8301 said:

As we all know, Gw2 is a very heavy PvE based kind of game, but also have a pretty decent PvP aspect of it, weither its SPvP, WvW or even GvG, though my question regards a youtube video I have seen that seems to circle around the idea that Gw2 currently is falling, and therefor needs more content that regards PvE (Raids, Fractals, Dungeons etc).

Gw2 has been a dying game since it launched because it never had the population WoW Had.

@zengara.8301 said:

Based on personal thoughts, I would suggest that the main income/players would come from PvP, Gw2 got a very original PvP structure of being able to have a 60vs60 fight without totally disrupting a computer. Or even interesting 15v15 guild vs guild fights that do bring a lot of people to twitch. This comes of cause out of the core principle of competition, and also the massive flow on sites like twitch/youtube that attracts PvP rather than PvE players. But either way, I can not argue that PvE does not create a massive flow of players through different aspects like gem store/mounts

Is this an opinion, or a suggestion saying that PVP players spend more than regular PVE players? Because im pretty sure ive spent more on skins, makeover kits and name change kits for RP than most pvpers do.

@zengara.8301 said:So the question to the normal forum writer is presented as, what do you think will make players come to Gw2, and why?

From what ive seen people come to GW2 because its advertised as not being like most MMOs, its not as toxic in general PVE, and very easy to pick up and stop playing whenever, on top of not having monthly fees, constantly added content, and generally looking better than most other MMOS.

@zengara.8301 said:

I generally would guess the main aspect of comments would center around PvE being a better for people to come in, since as mentioned previously, the game got a very strong PvE aspect.But I am kinda biased towards PvP, studying economics and peoples behavior buying and also kinda intrigued as to what the normal consumer would suggest.

In advance, thank you for answering

PVP in this game is probably one of the worst aspects of the game at the moment due to terrible balancing, lack of maps, lack of game modes and overall toxicity(in my opinion.)

Well I should have explained the second box more carefully. What I meant was, Twitch/youtube generally promotes PvP games better, therefor the income of players would maybe be higher through PvP. I would still very much like to hear your opinion regarding the question:

So the question to the normal forum writer is presented as, what do you think will make players come to Gw2, and why?

@zengara.8301 said:

So the question to the normal forum writer is presented as, what do you think will make players come to Gw2, and why?

I suspect that players come to GW2 for a variety of reasons, though I suspect open world PvE and story are a stronger draw than either harder instanced PvE content or PvP. I base the PvP part of that on anecdotal evidence, including the abandonment of GW2 by my predominantly PvP-oriented guild way back in late 2012, coupled with what seems to be close to a forum consensus that the two PvP modes suffer from neglect and are underutilized as a result. I base the observation on instanced PvE on claims that ANet does not provide enough for such players -- though that is usually the case for any MMO I've bothered to look at.

I also suspect that anyone making a video to lambaste GW2 about instanced PvE is making an assumption that that type of content is the only worthy MMO PvE content, which is not a view shared by ANet.

PVP in this game is comically bad. This is ironic, since it was originally intended to be esports level gameplay, but it was never anywhere close. In fact, even muttering the phrase "esports" and "GW2" in the same sentence results in a gaggle of cackling imps chittering from the shadows that you should really try Overwatch instead.

Why?

1. Balance is bad. Really bad. Comically, ridiculously bad. It was never good, but it's the worst it's ever been.
2. Core gameplay mechanics undermine good PVP. PVP gameplay should have a certain "skill cycle" to it - assess opponent, counter opponent, repeat. The better opponent wins. In GW2 though, the counterplay is very limited. Dodges are a universal counter to absolutely everything; condi cleanse is a universal counter to every debuff and CC in the game. No matter what you do, those are the two counters. As a result, rather then assessing and countering your opponent's specific move, you just count dodges.
3. Choice is limited. With only 5 weapons skills, many of them combine effects. Do you want to cripple the enemy or leap towards them? No worries! You can do both at once! In fact, you can do dps at the same time. In fact, you can do it all without even having to choose to do it because it's part of your autoattack! This is the real source of the dreaded "condi spam" - you couldn't stop spamming conditions if you tried. A lot of CC effects are in the same boat. The whole game is spam-tacularly full of things that should be a deliberate choice, but are really just incidental parts of doing DPS.
4. You just can't SEE. The visual noise is insane. This applies to all parts of the game, but in PVP it undermines everything. Since PVP hinges on dodging just the right move with split second timing, if you can't see the target because spell effects or floating numbers are in the way, you die. The inexcusable absence of UI customization makes this even worse. Most new players I've actually talked to try pvp once and never again, "I couldn't even tell what was happening, I just ended up dead." Honestly, this is the biggest killer of PVP since it convinces people there is no hope for improvement and thus they never try.

In short, I completely understand why Anet has been ignoring PVP for so long. It really can't be fixed without redesigning the game from scratch.

Using streamers as a litmus test is already kind of bias'd, because they're hugely dependent on chasing trends and commenting on controversy. Its essentially a side effect of being an entertainment outlet governed by popularity and public consciousness.

But the overarching question of "what do you think will make players come to Gw2" is the wrong the question. Not because its not relevant... its just not conductive to its own goal. This is kind of an industry wide problem created by a lot of people, including developers, that don't really recognize the fact that catering to an audience isn't a long term solution when you look at what most audiences are like. In fact, the F2P trend of chasing the Green Whale like Captain Ahab lets it survive, but often fails to thrive. Even the Holy Grail of MMOs, World of Warcraft, is now struggling to keep its population engaged in the long term, to the point where its starting to threaten the game's god defying profitability.

But the fallacy train doesn't stop there. This idea that streamers bring in lots of money is something of a double edged sword. Like any tide of popularity, they come and go.... and trying to attract them with significant focus causes it to wash up some some valuable resources, but also a lot of salty garbage that piles up over time. That strategy is inherently a gamble, because its banking on the idea that maybe, just maybe, some of those players will stick around for the long term and keep giving you money.

This may come to a shock to many- but many of the best games in history are not good because they're popular, they're popular because their good games. But the real struggle comes with games that need retention to stay relevant. It used to be every few years a new version of the game would come out, and everyone could gather to celebrate with renewed gusto. But with yearly sequels that come out with increasing speed and less game play value, the proverbial well that sustains many games gets poisoned by a flood of sewage being dumped into the pool.

So the point I'm trying to make here is this..... Anet needs to focus on each game mode to improve them; but lacks the resources, time, and total direction needed to make it happen. This has created the current round robin scheduling where each area of the game gets a short burst of focus, but individually each area suffers from atrophy as they fall behind or lose compatibility with other changes in the meantime. This in turn leads to the game's biggest problem with decision making right now- improving PvP and WvW can do a lot to extend the working life of mechanics, and can draw PvE players into a more community focused side of the game. But PvE players are so isolationist right now, the very suggestion of having to interact with another player to accomplish anything causes their entire world view to implode, and will lash out with an intense paranoia that is nothing short of surprising. With the number of MMOs going open world PvP, and done poorly at that, its understandable why they cling so hard to something that they feel comfortable in. But the levels of this are becoming toxic (in the figurative sense, not the social sense) to the game's design, because it was never intended to have this much focus on conventional PvE. Thus GW2 is suffering all the major problems WoW has on its PvE side, but can't facilitate enough of the design concepts that WoW used to mitigate it. GW2 players have also become incredibly spoiled and entitled, and are now in-fighting over whose entitlement is more important, and should be the Dev's exclusive focus.

Normally the solution is to make a good game, and players will naturally gravitate toward it. But whats rarely brought up is how there is a band of stability between mainstream and niche that most "seminal games" actually fall into.... and theres a reason for this. Niche titles tend to have focus on a core concept. And if capable of being built up on, the game can grow up to a certain amount without destabilizing itself. Most MMORPGs are the antithesis of this..... they're long lived, typically built with a lot of interconnected elements that gain more interdependence over time, have a complexity that make them difficult to maintain, and have a design that, once settled, is incredibly hard to alter or expand upon in new directions. GW2 was built around a minimalist design in its mechanics.... and the piling of additional mechanics on top of it is creating all sorts of problems. Theres a reason most Espec specific Buffs were reverted to Boons, and how universally flexible Espec mechanics are potentially game breaking to a balance philosophy thats become increasingly focused on narrow specialization. And while the Devs have been careful to not create disruption, they lack the things needed to rapidly refine these ideas in a time span that matters in the mind of the player base. Things like iteration rate, testing, asset production, encounter planning and production, etc.

Too many players want too many mutually exclusive things..... hence the question "what do you think will make players come to Gw2?" is the wrong question to be asking. I can list off a bunch of things that will attract players to the game, but aren't likely to make the game or the community better. Housing being one of the big hot topics at the moment..... we can add it, and it will attract players that like housing..... but what impact will it have on the game, the community, and aggregate bias of "the community" if we're gonna insist on thinking of it as a logical, knowable, and consistent entity. Because those things will affect the Dev's focus, as they need to ensure a minimum income just to keep running.

A ton of people are coming to GW2 now because WoW is pure trash at the moment... I came back and so did several of my friends.

@zengara.8301 said:Well I should have explained the second box more carefully. What I meant was, Twitch/youtube generally promotes PvP games better, therefor the income of players would maybe be higher through PvP. I would still very much like to hear your opinion regarding the question:

So the question to the normal forum writer is presented as, what do you think will make players come to Gw2, and why?

I think it's the quality of the game you get access to without a monthly sub that makes this a premiere game. There are other games that offer high quality content, but I don't think they do it at the value Anet offers us with this game.

I'm doubtful people sign up for GW2 because of PVP ... I think other games do it better and the exceptional PVP'ers that want ONLY that experience can do better than GW2.

Well most of the new players these days join in tyria when a friend of them invites them to play. This game is so noob friendly, that you cant join "late".

PvP is trash in this game. Some of the PVE is ok just avoid PoF unless you enjoy endless bland desert.

@zengara.8301 said:Well I should have explained the second box more carefully. What I meant was, Twitch/youtube generally promotes PvP games better, therefor the income of players would maybe be higher through PvP. I would still very much like to hear your opinion regarding the question:

So the question to the normal forum writer is presented as, what do you think will make players come to Gw2, and why?

Competitive games are more interesting to spectators, but RPGs traditionally have really unbalanced and cheesy mechanics for PvP, GW2 being no exception. This is not enjoyable to most players or spectators. It might seem silly to say at first, but the most legitimately competitive and skill-oriented parts of GW2 are the minigames. Think about it. As a spectator too, it's a lot more interesting to watch a Keg Brawl or Southsun Survival match than watching people stand in a circle for points.