What do you think can discourage stacking/bandwagoning — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What do you think can discourage stacking/bandwagoning

SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited September 24, 2018 in WvW

A few months ago, I started a topic about what you think of stacking, most participators say stacking is negative. Many by now should know the adverse effects of bandwagoning and stacking - how it can ruin the game for thousands of others.

This time, the topic is about what you think can be done to discourage stacking.

  • What you think the community can do to discourage bandwagoning/stacking
  • What you think anet can do now (in reasonable timeline) to discourage bandwagoning/stacking

Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
Henge of Denravi Server
www.gw2time.com

--

Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

Comments

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2018

    You do realize that the devs are making alliances with player caps and having rotation of matches... Not really sure what you are expecting to happen at this point or what you expect the players can do when the system is changing.

    From the stickied thread posted by Raymond Lukes...

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/45856/world-restructuring-update-1

    “What makes up a world?

    We will build a world from any number of Alliances, Guilds, and Solo Players. This means a single alliance will not necessarily dominate the population of a world. The goal is to create even worlds, so the matchmaker builds the worlds out of whatever pieces makes sense to fulfill that goal.

    Alliance size

    We are currently leaning toward alliance size being 500. This is technically easier, as we already support groups of this size (guilds), and it gives us more flexibility to make the worlds even.”

    "It's that sorta mentality that prevents progress from actually being made and the game from being fun for everyone and not the minority." -TexZero

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9804/idea-wvw-only-movement-skills

  • Illconceived Was Na.9781Illconceived Was Na.9781 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2018

    People like winning. They like being on the winning side of fights. They like the increased rewards of scattering opponents to the four winds. As long as it's possible to have imbalanced matchups (even if only lasting for part of the week), there will be stacking and bandwagoning.

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2018

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    You do realize that the devs are making alliances with player caps and having rotation of matches... Not really sure what you are expecting to happen at this point or what you expect the players can do when the system is changing.

    A community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning doesn't necessary require a system change, because it is called community, not anet.

    Likewise, if you think the 2nd point is irrelevant because anet is working on a new system, I respect that.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    You do realize that the devs are making alliances with player caps and having rotation of matches... Not really sure what you are expecting to happen at this point or what you expect the players can do when the system is changing.

    A community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning doesn't necessary require a system change, because it is called community, not anet.

    Likewise, if you think the 2nd point is irrelevant because anet is working on a new system, I respect that.

    Read my edit please.

    There is nothing that the community is going to do or can do or will do... The match up system is changing for population balance reasons and to make “fairer” matches.

    "It's that sorta mentality that prevents progress from actually being made and the game from being fun for everyone and not the minority." -TexZero

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9804/idea-wvw-only-movement-skills

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    People like winning. They like being on the winning side of fights. They like the increased rewards of scattering opponents to the four winds. As long as it's possible to have imbalanced matchups (even if only lasting for party of the week), there will be stacking and bandwagoning.

    Completely correct.

    "It's that sorta mentality that prevents progress from actually being made and the game from being fun for everyone and not the minority." -TexZero

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9804/idea-wvw-only-movement-skills

  • There is not a lot Anet can do about it, they are just hoping people want to have good fights instead of steamrolling a lesser populated or lesser skilled server. But like said, people also love to win. :/ Let's hope that steamrolling gets old fast and it will result in transfers instead of complaining on forums that the game is too easy.

  • Diku.2546Diku.2546 Member ✭✭
    edited September 24, 2018

    Whatever the answer is...the solution NEEDS to do 2 things:


    1) Encourage Sustainable Long-Term Communities <--- It's a widely known...WvW Players will always stack for the win. Any design should make use of this
    2) Create Healthy Competitive Match-Ups <--- Key to finding a solution is more likely found with re-designing this...imho

    Can't do one without the other.

    Because developer resources are limited...best effort should be directed at a solution that's the most effective at getting the WvW community satisfaction with the overall game mode.

    Your truly,
    Diku

    p.s.
    See some of my past posts...please vote Helpful or Thumbs up if you agree.

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I really wish there was a solution, but there isn't. People want to be playing wvw, but they also want fast, easy loot and wxp (which means they ktrain, regardless of calling themselves fight guilds). No one wants to lose at all, and the easiest way to win is only run around in 40-80 man blobs, AND stack the server so you can always have said blob available at all hours of the day.

    1. For coverage, I guess they could force people to only play the game in their geographical region. Meaning, only players from NA could log in to a NA server. Or, only EU could log in to EU servers. That would mean all the SEA/OCX folks playing in NA would have to find a server on that side of the world. Not really a viable or sensible idea (kind of ridiculous solution to 1 part of the stacking problem). So, this isn't a possibility.
    2. Once the new worlds are created, they could remove server transfers from the game completely. This takes revenue from Anet, so this isn't gonna happen.
    3. They could change the loot/reward system - but that will just encourage more ktrain'ing.

    The couple ideas I have mentioned before aren't solutions to stacking, but might help wvw as a game mode:
    1. Remove all siege, except rams and oil. Limit rams to 3 on a gate. Only siege damages or contests structures,
    2. Remove all scoring and stats. Add a personal stat for KDR maybe. People should be fighting to fight, not avoiding them to maintain high server KDR (or only blobbing for the same reason). People should be defending to have something to fight. Let Anet handle matchups using internal metrics, let the players fight.
    3. Remove all food/enhancement buffs from wvw. Some of the build/plus enhancement combos create completely broken builds in wvw.
    4. Remove the guild auras from structures, or maybe just make it 10% of the values they are now.
    5. Fix wall combat. Attackers can use every skill and aoe on the wall, defenders can "die on the wall". They have to figure something out.
    6. Skill balance...skill balance...skill balance.

    Sums it up for me.

    Carnished Toast (Yum)
    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)

  • Nothing will stop stacking, ppl always want to be on the server that wins at the moment.

  • I think, @SkyShroud.2865 , you should consider asking people why they stack/bandwagon. It's hard to design a technical system to alter social behavior without understanding the motivations involved.

    Remember that when the game was fresh and populations were (of course) much higher, people still bandwagoned, even though the costs were always 1800 gems and it would increase the time spent queuing during peak periods. People are willing to pay very steep prices to stack.

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2018

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    I think, @SkyShroud.2865 , you should consider asking people why they stack/bandwagon. It's hard to design a technical system to alter social behavior without understanding the motivations involved.

    Remember that when the game was fresh and populations were (of course) much higher, people still bandwagoned, even though the costs were always 1800 gems and it would increase the time spent queuing during peak periods. People are willing to pay very steep prices to stack.

    Good point, I will start a thread next month with topic "Why do you bandwagon/stack".

    On the 2nd point, if 1800 gems is not enough to deter people, why not double it? Do you think doubling is enough to make people think twice or enough to delay the rate people bandwagon/stack?

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    You do realize that the devs are making alliances with player caps and having rotation of matches... Not really sure what you are expecting to happen at this point or what you expect the players can do when the system is changing.

    A community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning doesn't necessary require a system change, because it is called community, not anet.

    Likewise, if you think the 2nd point is irrelevant because anet is working on a new system, I respect that.

    Read my edit please.

    There is nothing that the community is going to do or can do or will do... The match up system is changing for population balance reasons and to make “fairer” matches.

    Rome wasn't built in a day and thus I believe every small little community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning is a seed for a better future. Even discussing about it raise awareness of the discontents towards stacking/bandwagoning.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I believe the solution is to let people see what happens when they bandwagon and stack and see if they really think it's worth it afterwards. I know from personal experience being on BG for years that once we started steamrolling every matchup it was super boring and I didn't have any interest in playing anymore.

    I've found that I'd personally rather be on a server that loses the PPT almost every week but has enough heart to keep showing up and fighting men every day than on a server that only exists only to facilitate matchup wins. It's a personal choice and you have to let people make up their own minds.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    issue is player mentality.

    got to change it in a way where to win in this game atleast 2 teams in a map is not enough to do the mechanic

    therefore if you have multiple mech, you can force players to split and coord.

    like atlest 3 per area to hold. so atleast 9 per map.

    so u can have 3 teams of 15 to 25.

    example

    mid isle sm

    surounded by 3 towers.

    to open, one team.has.to hold the tower. another team opens.the sm gate and the 3rd fights for the keep.

    no one owns sm.

    from the mlment xapped. 15 to 20 minute event rest.

    playeers can pk.each other or take each otbers towers.

    when event on - take sm.again.

    atleast in that sense.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2018

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    I think, @SkyShroud.2865 , you should consider asking people why they stack/bandwagon. It's hard to design a technical system to alter social behavior without understanding the motivations involved.

    Remember that when the game was fresh and populations were (of course) much higher, people still bandwagoned, even though the costs were always 1800 gems and it would increase the time spent queuing during peak periods. People are willing to pay very steep prices to stack.

    Good point, I will start a thread next month with topic "Why do you bandwagon/stack".

    On the 2nd point, if 1800 gems is not enough to deter people, why not double it? Do you think doubling is enough to make people think twice or enough to delay the rate people bandwagon/stack?

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    You do realize that the devs are making alliances with player caps and having rotation of matches... Not really sure what you are expecting to happen at this point or what you expect the players can do when the system is changing.

    A community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning doesn't necessary require a system change, because it is called community, not anet.

    Likewise, if you think the 2nd point is irrelevant because anet is working on a new system, I respect that.

    Read my edit please.

    There is nothing that the community is going to do or can do or will do... The match up system is changing for population balance reasons and to make “fairer” matches.

    Rome wasn't built in a day and thus I believe every small little community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning is a seed for a better future. Even discussing about it raise awareness of the discontents towards stacking/bandwagoning.

    There is already awareness from both developers and players. That is why the devs are creating alliances to tackle the issue.

    There was a “top 5” wvw wants thread and the number one issue was “population balance”. Mike O’Brien commented in that thread from like 2 years ago. Much later the devs brought up the fact that they were looking into how to address the issue and shorty after announced Alliances...

    You are asking moot questions because it has already been discussed on all sides and the devs are doing something about it...

    Think you should spend more time following the dev tracker, and reading all the clear dev communications first, so you can avoid recycling the same issues over and over that are already being addressed.

    "It's that sorta mentality that prevents progress from actually being made and the game from being fun for everyone and not the minority." -TexZero

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9804/idea-wvw-only-movement-skills

  • Bg is open, wvw dead this will be the greatest stack ever

    [eXa] Esoteric Alliance | [ZEDD] Zodiac Dynasty | Jade Quarry | Elementalist and Memser main

  • @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    You do realize that the devs are making alliances with player caps and having rotation of matches... Not really sure what you are expecting to happen at this point or what you expect the players can do when the system is changing.

    A community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning doesn't necessary require a system change, because it is called community, not anet.

    Likewise, if you think the 2nd point is irrelevant because anet is working on a new system, I respect that.

    The community has shown us it wants to stack. It wants to bandwagon. It wants to blob. Anet waited way too long to address the problem.

    Blodeuyn Tylwyth
    Quaggan OP [QOP], League of Extraordinary Siegers [LEXS]

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    I think, @SkyShroud.2865 , you should consider asking people why they stack/bandwagon. It's hard to design a technical system to alter social behavior without understanding the motivations involved.

    Remember that when the game was fresh and populations were (of course) much higher, people still bandwagoned, even though the costs were always 1800 gems and it would increase the time spent queuing during peak periods. People are willing to pay very steep prices to stack.

    Good point, I will start a thread next month with topic "Why do you bandwagon/stack".

    On the 2nd point, if 1800 gems is not enough to deter people, why not double it? Do you think doubling is enough to make people think twice or enough to delay the rate people bandwagon/stack?

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    You do realize that the devs are making alliances with player caps and having rotation of matches... Not really sure what you are expecting to happen at this point or what you expect the players can do when the system is changing.

    A community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning doesn't necessary require a system change, because it is called community, not anet.

    Likewise, if you think the 2nd point is irrelevant because anet is working on a new system, I respect that.

    Read my edit please.

    There is nothing that the community is going to do or can do or will do... The match up system is changing for population balance reasons and to make “fairer” matches.

    Rome wasn't built in a day and thus I believe every small little community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning is a seed for a better future. Even discussing about it raise awareness of the discontents towards stacking/bandwagoning.

    There is already awareness from both developers and players. That is why the devs are creating alliances to tackle the issue.

    There was a “top 5” wvw wants thread and the number one issue was “population balance”. Mike O’Brien commented in that thread from like 2 years ago. Much later the devs brought up the fact that they were looking into how to address the issue and shorty after announced Alliances...

    You are asking moot questions because it has already been discussed on all sides and the devs are doing something about it...

    Think you should spend more time following the dev tracker, and reading all the clear dev communications first, so you can avoid recycling the same issues over and over that are already being addressed.

    I think your timeline is wrong but nvm, it isn't important.

    Firstly, there are always new players so to claim players' have awareness is a big word. I do assume by players you literally means everyone.

    Secondly, it isn't rare to see players boosting and bragging about how "good" they are, after blobbing people down. Is that the kind of awareness you are talking about?

    Thirdly, I thought the regular forumers would know I am one of the people that have been posting about population imbalance and what's not until they post the alliance announcement. Surely I know of it. On a side note, I also part of the initial batch of people of this particular discord (not troll discord) filled with leaders, officers and vet from various wvw involved guilds which now also happen to have a dev in it talking about things related to WvW. So yes, I think I am very up-to-date to stuffs than most people.

    Most importantly, like I mentioned in first two points, it never about awareness from dev. It is about awareness from players because definitely, not every single player will be aware of what bandwagoning and stacking do to the game mode. Thus, as the topic main post stated, "What you think the community can do to discourage bandwagoning/stacking?"

    Lastly, even in school, study materials are also recycled topics. Are they suppose to stop teaching the people? Of course not, they are new people.

    @Blodeuyn.2751 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    You do realize that the devs are making alliances with player caps and having rotation of matches... Not really sure what you are expecting to happen at this point or what you expect the players can do when the system is changing.

    A community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning doesn't necessary require a system change, because it is called community, not anet.

    Likewise, if you think the 2nd point is irrelevant because anet is working on a new system, I respect that.

    The community has shown us it wants to stack. It wants to bandwagon. It wants to blob. Anet waited way too long to address the problem.

    The plenty of players do belong that segment but surely there also players that don't belong that. While we cannot do anything about those that chose that path but surely, we can do something to educate the new and future wvwers.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Crazy.6029Crazy.6029 Member ✭✭✭

    Players have stacked as far back as 1st week of launch, as far as I can remember the main reason was they did not want to fight for 3 hours for control of and objective/s and then lose it to the next time zone. So, they stacked so they could maintain control of objectives they fought hard to get. Bandwagoning came a bit later cause players wanted to be on servers that were stacked with coverage and going to win. There were various reasons for that. There isn't much that can be done about it. It really is the players choice. If you eliminate players choice , they run the risk of losing players due to them not being able to play they way they want. After all Anet is a business and they have to please there customers to a certain degree.

  • We all know the answer to this and it's disable transfers or make it so expensive to the point where only a madman would pay for a transfer.

    Nothing else will.

  • Make any transfer cost more. The more often you transfer, the more you pay and make people lose wvw ranks on a transfer.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2018

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    I think, @SkyShroud.2865 , you should consider asking people why they stack/bandwagon. It's hard to design a technical system to alter social behavior without understanding the motivations involved.

    Remember that when the game was fresh and populations were (of course) much higher, people still bandwagoned, even though the costs were always 1800 gems and it would increase the time spent queuing during peak periods. People are willing to pay very steep prices to stack.

    Good point, I will start a thread next month with topic "Why do you bandwagon/stack".

    On the 2nd point, if 1800 gems is not enough to deter people, why not double it? Do you think doubling is enough to make people think twice or enough to delay the rate people bandwagon/stack?

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    You do realize that the devs are making alliances with player caps and having rotation of matches... Not really sure what you are expecting to happen at this point or what you expect the players can do when the system is changing.

    A community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning doesn't necessary require a system change, because it is called community, not anet.

    Likewise, if you think the 2nd point is irrelevant because anet is working on a new system, I respect that.

    Read my edit please.

    There is nothing that the community is going to do or can do or will do... The match up system is changing for population balance reasons and to make “fairer” matches.

    Rome wasn't built in a day and thus I believe every small little community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning is a seed for a better future. Even discussing about it raise awareness of the discontents towards stacking/bandwagoning.

    There is already awareness from both developers and players. That is why the devs are creating alliances to tackle the issue.

    There was a “top 5” wvw wants thread and the number one issue was “population balance”. Mike O’Brien commented in that thread from like 2 years ago. Much later the devs brought up the fact that they were looking into how to address the issue and shorty after announced Alliances...

    You are asking moot questions because it has already been discussed on all sides and the devs are doing something about it...

    Think you should spend more time following the dev tracker, and reading all the clear dev communications first, so you can avoid recycling the same issues over and over that are already being addressed.

    I think your timeline is wrong but nvm, it isn't important.

    Firstly, there are always new players so to claim players' have awareness is a big word. I do assume by players you literally means everyone.

    Secondly, it isn't rare to see players boosting and bragging about how "good" they are, after blobbing people down. Is that the kind of awareness you are talking about?

    Thirdly, I thought the regular forumers would know I am one of the people that have been posting about population imbalance and what's not until they post the alliance announcement. Surely I know of it. On a side note, I also part of the initial batch of people of this particular discord (not troll discord) filled with leaders, officers and vet from various wvw involved guilds which now also happen to have a dev in it talking about things related to WvW. So yes, I think I am very up-to-date to stuffs than most people.

    Most importantly, like I mentioned in first two points, it never about awareness from dev. It is about awareness from players because definitely, not every single player will be aware of what bandwagoning and stacking do to the game mode. Thus, as the topic main post stated, "What you think the community can do to discourage bandwagoning/stacking?"

    Lastly, even in school, study materials are also recycled topics. Are they suppose to stop teaching the people? Of course not, they are new people.

    @Blodeuyn.2751 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    You do realize that the devs are making alliances with player caps and having rotation of matches... Not really sure what you are expecting to happen at this point or what you expect the players can do when the system is changing.

    A community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning doesn't necessary require a system change, because it is called community, not anet.

    Likewise, if you think the 2nd point is irrelevant because anet is working on a new system, I respect that.

    The community has shown us it wants to stack. It wants to bandwagon. It wants to blob. Anet waited way too long to address the problem.

    The plenty of players do belong that segment but surely there also players that don't belong that. While we cannot do anything about those that chose that path but surely, we can do something to educate the new and future wvwers.

    No, my timeline is correct.

    Seriously, there is nothing the player base will do, or is realistically capable of doing... What do you expect every wvw player to spread out evenly? Do you have the exact stats on player population per server? Are you going to individually mail ever player who participates in wvw and force them to move? You going to pay for everyone’s “destack” transfers?

    ... This issues has been discussed and the devs are doing something about it. Not sure why you can’t understand all this.

    "It's that sorta mentality that prevents progress from actually being made and the game from being fun for everyone and not the minority." -TexZero

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9804/idea-wvw-only-movement-skills

  • Kaiser.9873Kaiser.9873 Member ✭✭✭

    Reduce map caps.
    Make map caps dynamic based on the least populated server, and/or simply make them smaller across the board. 80 becomes 50 or whatever. People that can't get into the BLs to play will start to look around for places where they can.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    ... This issues has been discussed and the devs are doing something about it. Not sure why you can’t understand all this.

    I could be wrong but I think he's saying that he doesn't believe alliances are going to change much. I think he's probably right.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    only issue i see is how to spread the population.

    periodic reset by keeping it into guilds may be the solution.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Trajan.4953Trajan.4953 Member ✭✭✭

    Or...
    Get better and kill bandwagon blobs.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ^ ppl indeed need to learn to get better.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    ... This issues has been discussed and the devs are doing something about it. Not sure why you can’t understand all this.

    I could be wrong but I think he's saying that he doesn't believe alliances are going to change much. I think he's probably right.

    Well, that too, I do believe it will reduce imbalance but doesn't mean it doesn't have flaws that will create imbalance.. As long community doesn't consciously work on discouraging stacking and bandwagoning, then who say you can't stack using alliance? Putting it to example, let just say 5 PST guilds stack on one alliance, how many pst guilds are left for other servers?

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    I think, @SkyShroud.2865 , you should consider asking people why they stack/bandwagon. It's hard to design a technical system to alter social behavior without understanding the motivations involved.

    Remember that when the game was fresh and populations were (of course) much higher, people still bandwagoned, even though the costs were always 1800 gems and it would increase the time spent queuing during peak periods. People are willing to pay very steep prices to stack.

    Good point, I will start a thread next month with topic "Why do you bandwagon/stack".

    On the 2nd point, if 1800 gems is not enough to deter people, why not double it? Do you think doubling is enough to make people think twice or enough to delay the rate people bandwagon/stack?

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    You do realize that the devs are making alliances with player caps and having rotation of matches... Not really sure what you are expecting to happen at this point or what you expect the players can do when the system is changing.

    A community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning doesn't necessary require a system change, because it is called community, not anet.

    Likewise, if you think the 2nd point is irrelevant because anet is working on a new system, I respect that.

    Read my edit please.

    There is nothing that the community is going to do or can do or will do... The match up system is changing for population balance reasons and to make “fairer” matches.

    Rome wasn't built in a day and thus I believe every small little community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning is a seed for a better future. Even discussing about it raise awareness of the discontents towards stacking/bandwagoning.

    There is already awareness from both developers and players. That is why the devs are creating alliances to tackle the issue.

    There was a “top 5” wvw wants thread and the number one issue was “population balance”. Mike O’Brien commented in that thread from like 2 years ago. Much later the devs brought up the fact that they were looking into how to address the issue and shorty after announced Alliances...

    You are asking moot questions because it has already been discussed on all sides and the devs are doing something about it...

    Think you should spend more time following the dev tracker, and reading all the clear dev communications first, so you can avoid recycling the same issues over and over that are already being addressed.

    I think your timeline is wrong but nvm, it isn't important.

    Firstly, there are always new players so to claim players' have awareness is a big word. I do assume by players you literally means everyone.

    Secondly, it isn't rare to see players boosting and bragging about how "good" they are, after blobbing people down. Is that the kind of awareness you are talking about?

    Thirdly, I thought the regular forumers would know I am one of the people that have been posting about population imbalance and what's not until they post the alliance announcement. Surely I know of it. On a side note, I also part of the initial batch of people of this particular discord (not troll discord) filled with leaders, officers and vet from various wvw involved guilds which now also happen to have a dev in it talking about things related to WvW. So yes, I think I am very up-to-date to stuffs than most people.

    Most importantly, like I mentioned in first two points, it never about awareness from dev. It is about awareness from players because definitely, not every single player will be aware of what bandwagoning and stacking do to the game mode. Thus, as the topic main post stated, "What you think the community can do to discourage bandwagoning/stacking?"

    Lastly, even in school, study materials are also recycled topics. Are they suppose to stop teaching the people? Of course not, they are new people.

    @Blodeuyn.2751 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    You do realize that the devs are making alliances with player caps and having rotation of matches... Not really sure what you are expecting to happen at this point or what you expect the players can do when the system is changing.

    A community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning doesn't necessary require a system change, because it is called community, not anet.

    Likewise, if you think the 2nd point is irrelevant because anet is working on a new system, I respect that.

    The community has shown us it wants to stack. It wants to bandwagon. It wants to blob. Anet waited way too long to address the problem.

    The plenty of players do belong that segment but surely there also players that don't belong that. While we cannot do anything about those that chose that path but surely, we can do something to educate the new and future wvwers.

    No, my timeline is correct.

    Seriously, there is nothing the player base will do, or is realistically capable of doing... What do you expect every wvw player to spread out evenly? Do you have the exact stats on player population per server? Are you going to individually mail ever player who participates in wvw and force them to move? You going to pay for everyone’s “destack” transfers?

    ... This issues has been discussed and the devs are doing something about it. Not sure why you can’t understand all this.

    That's a lot of negativity coming out from ya. Impossible. Can't do it. Let's give up. That's certainly very discouraging but not towards bandwagoning/stacking but towards the people who oppose bandwagoning/stacking. As mentioned, raising awareness is one thing people can do. Trying to seek overnight result is silly but it definitely isn't unrealistic to educate the new or uninformed individuals on the negative impacts of bandwagoning/stacking.

    Sigh, honestly speaking, I start this thread in hope people will think what they can do and not just tell everyone you can't do anything, give it up.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2018

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    ... This issues has been discussed and the devs are doing something about it. Not sure why you can’t understand all this.

    I could be wrong but I think he's saying that he doesn't believe alliances are going to change much. I think he's probably right.

    Well, that too, I do believe it will reduce imbalance but doesn't mean it doesn't have flaws that will create imbalance.. As long community doesn't consciously work on discouraging stacking and bandwagoning, then who say you can't stack using alliance? Putting it to example, let just say 5 PST guilds stack on one alliance, how many pst guilds are left for other servers?

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    I think, @SkyShroud.2865 , you should consider asking people why they stack/bandwagon. It's hard to design a technical system to alter social behavior without understanding the motivations involved.

    Remember that when the game was fresh and populations were (of course) much higher, people still bandwagoned, even though the costs were always 1800 gems and it would increase the time spent queuing during peak periods. People are willing to pay very steep prices to stack.

    Good point, I will start a thread next month with topic "Why do you bandwagon/stack".

    On the 2nd point, if 1800 gems is not enough to deter people, why not double it? Do you think doubling is enough to make people think twice or enough to delay the rate people bandwagon/stack?

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    You do realize that the devs are making alliances with player caps and having rotation of matches... Not really sure what you are expecting to happen at this point or what you expect the players can do when the system is changing.

    A community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning doesn't necessary require a system change, because it is called community, not anet.

    Likewise, if you think the 2nd point is irrelevant because anet is working on a new system, I respect that.

    Read my edit please.

    There is nothing that the community is going to do or can do or will do... The match up system is changing for population balance reasons and to make “fairer” matches.

    Rome wasn't built in a day and thus I believe every small little community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning is a seed for a better future. Even discussing about it raise awareness of the discontents towards stacking/bandwagoning.

    There is already awareness from both developers and players. That is why the devs are creating alliances to tackle the issue.

    There was a “top 5” wvw wants thread and the number one issue was “population balance”. Mike O’Brien commented in that thread from like 2 years ago. Much later the devs brought up the fact that they were looking into how to address the issue and shorty after announced Alliances...

    You are asking moot questions because it has already been discussed on all sides and the devs are doing something about it...

    Think you should spend more time following the dev tracker, and reading all the clear dev communications first, so you can avoid recycling the same issues over and over that are already being addressed.

    I think your timeline is wrong but nvm, it isn't important.

    Firstly, there are always new players so to claim players' have awareness is a big word. I do assume by players you literally means everyone.

    Secondly, it isn't rare to see players boosting and bragging about how "good" they are, after blobbing people down. Is that the kind of awareness you are talking about?

    Thirdly, I thought the regular forumers would know I am one of the people that have been posting about population imbalance and what's not until they post the alliance announcement. Surely I know of it. On a side note, I also part of the initial batch of people of this particular discord (not troll discord) filled with leaders, officers and vet from various wvw involved guilds which now also happen to have a dev in it talking about things related to WvW. So yes, I think I am very up-to-date to stuffs than most people.

    Most importantly, like I mentioned in first two points, it never about awareness from dev. It is about awareness from players because definitely, not every single player will be aware of what bandwagoning and stacking do to the game mode. Thus, as the topic main post stated, "What you think the community can do to discourage bandwagoning/stacking?"

    Lastly, even in school, study materials are also recycled topics. Are they suppose to stop teaching the people? Of course not, they are new people.

    @Blodeuyn.2751 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    You do realize that the devs are making alliances with player caps and having rotation of matches... Not really sure what you are expecting to happen at this point or what you expect the players can do when the system is changing.

    A community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning doesn't necessary require a system change, because it is called community, not anet.

    Likewise, if you think the 2nd point is irrelevant because anet is working on a new system, I respect that.

    The community has shown us it wants to stack. It wants to bandwagon. It wants to blob. Anet waited way too long to address the problem.

    The plenty of players do belong that segment but surely there also players that don't belong that. While we cannot do anything about those that chose that path but surely, we can do something to educate the new and future wvwers.

    No, my timeline is correct.

    Seriously, there is nothing the player base will do, or is realistically capable of doing... What do you expect every wvw player to spread out evenly? Do you have the exact stats on player population per server? Are you going to individually mail ever player who participates in wvw and force them to move? You going to pay for everyone’s “destack” transfers?

    ... This issues has been discussed and the devs are doing something about it. Not sure why you can’t understand all this.

    That's a lot of negativity coming out from ya. Impossible. Can't do it. Let's give up. That's certainly very discouraging but not towards bandwagoning/stacking but towards the people who oppose bandwagoning/stacking. As mentioned, raising awareness is one thing people can do. Trying to seek overnight result is silly but it definitely isn't unrealistic to educate the new or uninformed individuals on the negative impacts of bandwagoning/stacking.

    Sigh, honestly speaking, I start this thread in hope people will think what they can do and not just tell everyone you can't do anything, give it up.

    What you are asking for is akin to getting all players in spvp matches to only have 3 per team, when the system allows for 5... It’s not going to happen.

    I know you have good intentions, but you are not being realistic here. The devs are the ones who are addressing your destacking and population balance request as we speak, there is nothing on the players end that will accomplish what you want... Again, seriously, the devs are making like 500 player cap for each alliance, so you can’t stack an alliance like you can stack servers now... And if you didn’t read the link I provided... all servers are going away... what more do you want?

    "It's that sorta mentality that prevents progress from actually being made and the game from being fun for everyone and not the minority." -TexZero

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9804/idea-wvw-only-movement-skills

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    ... This issues has been discussed and the devs are doing something about it. Not sure why you can’t understand all this.

    I could be wrong but I think he's saying that he doesn't believe alliances are going to change much. I think he's probably right.

    Well, that too, I do believe it will reduce imbalance but doesn't mean it doesn't have flaws that will create imbalance.. As long community doesn't consciously work on discouraging stacking and bandwagoning, then who say you can't stack using alliance? Putting it to example, let just say 5 PST guilds stack on one alliance, how many pst guilds are left for other servers?

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    I think, @SkyShroud.2865 , you should consider asking people why they stack/bandwagon. It's hard to design a technical system to alter social behavior without understanding the motivations involved.

    Remember that when the game was fresh and populations were (of course) much higher, people still bandwagoned, even though the costs were always 1800 gems and it would increase the time spent queuing during peak periods. People are willing to pay very steep prices to stack.

    Good point, I will start a thread next month with topic "Why do you bandwagon/stack".

    On the 2nd point, if 1800 gems is not enough to deter people, why not double it? Do you think doubling is enough to make people think twice or enough to delay the rate people bandwagon/stack?

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    You do realize that the devs are making alliances with player caps and having rotation of matches... Not really sure what you are expecting to happen at this point or what you expect the players can do when the system is changing.

    A community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning doesn't necessary require a system change, because it is called community, not anet.

    Likewise, if you think the 2nd point is irrelevant because anet is working on a new system, I respect that.

    Read my edit please.

    There is nothing that the community is going to do or can do or will do... The match up system is changing for population balance reasons and to make “fairer” matches.

    Rome wasn't built in a day and thus I believe every small little community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning is a seed for a better future. Even discussing about it raise awareness of the discontents towards stacking/bandwagoning.

    There is already awareness from both developers and players. That is why the devs are creating alliances to tackle the issue.

    There was a “top 5” wvw wants thread and the number one issue was “population balance”. Mike O’Brien commented in that thread from like 2 years ago. Much later the devs brought up the fact that they were looking into how to address the issue and shorty after announced Alliances...

    You are asking moot questions because it has already been discussed on all sides and the devs are doing something about it...

    Think you should spend more time following the dev tracker, and reading all the clear dev communications first, so you can avoid recycling the same issues over and over that are already being addressed.

    I think your timeline is wrong but nvm, it isn't important.

    Firstly, there are always new players so to claim players' have awareness is a big word. I do assume by players you literally means everyone.

    Secondly, it isn't rare to see players boosting and bragging about how "good" they are, after blobbing people down. Is that the kind of awareness you are talking about?

    Thirdly, I thought the regular forumers would know I am one of the people that have been posting about population imbalance and what's not until they post the alliance announcement. Surely I know of it. On a side note, I also part of the initial batch of people of this particular discord (not troll discord) filled with leaders, officers and vet from various wvw involved guilds which now also happen to have a dev in it talking about things related to WvW. So yes, I think I am very up-to-date to stuffs than most people.

    Most importantly, like I mentioned in first two points, it never about awareness from dev. It is about awareness from players because definitely, not every single player will be aware of what bandwagoning and stacking do to the game mode. Thus, as the topic main post stated, "What you think the community can do to discourage bandwagoning/stacking?"

    Lastly, even in school, study materials are also recycled topics. Are they suppose to stop teaching the people? Of course not, they are new people.

    @Blodeuyn.2751 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    You do realize that the devs are making alliances with player caps and having rotation of matches... Not really sure what you are expecting to happen at this point or what you expect the players can do when the system is changing.

    A community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning doesn't necessary require a system change, because it is called community, not anet.

    Likewise, if you think the 2nd point is irrelevant because anet is working on a new system, I respect that.

    The community has shown us it wants to stack. It wants to bandwagon. It wants to blob. Anet waited way too long to address the problem.

    The plenty of players do belong that segment but surely there also players that don't belong that. While we cannot do anything about those that chose that path but surely, we can do something to educate the new and future wvwers.

    No, my timeline is correct.

    Seriously, there is nothing the player base will do, or is realistically capable of doing... What do you expect every wvw player to spread out evenly? Do you have the exact stats on player population per server? Are you going to individually mail ever player who participates in wvw and force them to move? You going to pay for everyone’s “destack” transfers?

    ... This issues has been discussed and the devs are doing something about it. Not sure why you can’t understand all this.

    That's a lot of negativity coming out from ya. Impossible. Can't do it. Let's give up. That's certainly very discouraging but not towards bandwagoning/stacking but towards the people who oppose bandwagoning/stacking. As mentioned, raising awareness is one thing people can do. Trying to seek overnight result is silly but it definitely isn't unrealistic to educate the new or uninformed individuals on the negative impacts of bandwagoning/stacking.

    Sigh, honestly speaking, I start this thread in hope people will think what they can do and not just tell everyone you can't do anything, give it up.

    What you are asking for is akin to getting all players in spvp matches to only have 3 per team, when the system allows for 5... It’s not going to happen.

    I know you have good intentions, but you are not being realistic here. The devs are the ones who are addressing your destacking and population balance request as we speak, there is nothing on the players end that will accomplish what you want... Again, seriously, the devs are making like 500 player caps for alliances, so you can’t stack an alliance... What more do you want?

    Sigh, is rather hard to get the idea to your head, can anyone who know try?

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Illconceived Was Na.9781Illconceived Was Na.9781 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2018

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    Sigh, honestly speaking, I start this thread in hope people will think what they can do and not just tell everyone you can't do anything, give it up.

    No one is saying, "nothing can be done." We're saying that the problem is human nature and that can't be addressed by small changes. People like winning and people like phat rewards and both those things happen more often for stacked worlds.

    I'm not saying, "give up." I'm saying the root cause is fundamental and the phrasing in the opening post doesn't allow for that. If you want to tackle stacking, then accept that there are lots and lots of people who will follow the path of least resistance towards their goals. It isn't so much that "nothing can be done" as that "the simple things that might be done" won't have a meaningful impact.

    If you really want to counter bandwagoning, you can organize an effective fighting guild and then go to underpowered worlds. That is, surround yourself with others who are willing to give up wins & potential loot in the name of balancing the odds. I don't think that's impossible; I think it's worth doing. But I can't imagine it would be easy: everyone I know who is interested in organized WvW likes to win, a lot. They work hard to win more often, to be as good or better than similar guilds.

    Still, there are plenty of examples in history of groups that have done similar things. So, not impossible; just very challenging.

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2018

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    ... This issues has been discussed and the devs are doing something about it. Not sure why you can’t understand all this.

    I could be wrong but I think he's saying that he doesn't believe alliances are going to change much. I think he's probably right.

    Well, that too, I do believe it will reduce imbalance but doesn't mean it doesn't have flaws that will create imbalance.. As long community doesn't consciously work on discouraging stacking and bandwagoning, then who say you can't stack using alliance? Putting it to example, let just say 5 PST guilds stack on one alliance, how many pst guilds are left for other servers?

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    I think, @SkyShroud.2865 , you should consider asking people why they stack/bandwagon. It's hard to design a technical system to alter social behavior without understanding the motivations involved.

    Remember that when the game was fresh and populations were (of course) much higher, people still bandwagoned, even though the costs were always 1800 gems and it would increase the time spent queuing during peak periods. People are willing to pay very steep prices to stack.

    Good point, I will start a thread next month with topic "Why do you bandwagon/stack".

    On the 2nd point, if 1800 gems is not enough to deter people, why not double it? Do you think doubling is enough to make people think twice or enough to delay the rate people bandwagon/stack?

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    You do realize that the devs are making alliances with player caps and having rotation of matches... Not really sure what you are expecting to happen at this point or what you expect the players can do when the system is changing.

    A community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning doesn't necessary require a system change, because it is called community, not anet.

    Likewise, if you think the 2nd point is irrelevant because anet is working on a new system, I respect that.

    Read my edit please.

    There is nothing that the community is going to do or can do or will do... The match up system is changing for population balance reasons and to make “fairer” matches.

    Rome wasn't built in a day and thus I believe every small little community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning is a seed for a better future. Even discussing about it raise awareness of the discontents towards stacking/bandwagoning.

    There is already awareness from both developers and players. That is why the devs are creating alliances to tackle the issue.

    There was a “top 5” wvw wants thread and the number one issue was “population balance”. Mike O’Brien commented in that thread from like 2 years ago. Much later the devs brought up the fact that they were looking into how to address the issue and shorty after announced Alliances...

    You are asking moot questions because it has already been discussed on all sides and the devs are doing something about it...

    Think you should spend more time following the dev tracker, and reading all the clear dev communications first, so you can avoid recycling the same issues over and over that are already being addressed.

    I think your timeline is wrong but nvm, it isn't important.

    Firstly, there are always new players so to claim players' have awareness is a big word. I do assume by players you literally means everyone.

    Secondly, it isn't rare to see players boosting and bragging about how "good" they are, after blobbing people down. Is that the kind of awareness you are talking about?

    Thirdly, I thought the regular forumers would know I am one of the people that have been posting about population imbalance and what's not until they post the alliance announcement. Surely I know of it. On a side note, I also part of the initial batch of people of this particular discord (not troll discord) filled with leaders, officers and vet from various wvw involved guilds which now also happen to have a dev in it talking about things related to WvW. So yes, I think I am very up-to-date to stuffs than most people.

    Most importantly, like I mentioned in first two points, it never about awareness from dev. It is about awareness from players because definitely, not every single player will be aware of what bandwagoning and stacking do to the game mode. Thus, as the topic main post stated, "What you think the community can do to discourage bandwagoning/stacking?"

    Lastly, even in school, study materials are also recycled topics. Are they suppose to stop teaching the people? Of course not, they are new people.

    @Blodeuyn.2751 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    You do realize that the devs are making alliances with player caps and having rotation of matches... Not really sure what you are expecting to happen at this point or what you expect the players can do when the system is changing.

    A community effort to discourage stacking/bandwagoning doesn't necessary require a system change, because it is called community, not anet.

    Likewise, if you think the 2nd point is irrelevant because anet is working on a new system, I respect that.

    The community has shown us it wants to stack. It wants to bandwagon. It wants to blob. Anet waited way too long to address the problem.

    The plenty of players do belong that segment but surely there also players that don't belong that. While we cannot do anything about those that chose that path but surely, we can do something to educate the new and future wvwers.

    No, my timeline is correct.

    Seriously, there is nothing the player base will do, or is realistically capable of doing... What do you expect every wvw player to spread out evenly? Do you have the exact stats on player population per server? Are you going to individually mail ever player who participates in wvw and force them to move? You going to pay for everyone’s “destack” transfers?

    ... This issues has been discussed and the devs are doing something about it. Not sure why you can’t understand all this.

    That's a lot of negativity coming out from ya. Impossible. Can't do it. Let's give up. That's certainly very discouraging but not towards bandwagoning/stacking but towards the people who oppose bandwagoning/stacking. As mentioned, raising awareness is one thing people can do. Trying to seek overnight result is silly but it definitely isn't unrealistic to educate the new or uninformed individuals on the negative impacts of bandwagoning/stacking.

    Sigh, honestly speaking, I start this thread in hope people will think what they can do and not just tell everyone you can't do anything, give it up.

    What you are asking for is akin to getting all players in spvp matches to only have 3 per team, when the system allows for 5... It’s not going to happen.

    I know you have good intentions, but you are not being realistic here. The devs are the ones who are addressing your destacking and population balance request as we speak, there is nothing on the players end that will accomplish what you want... Again, seriously, the devs are making like 500 player caps for alliances, so you can’t stack an alliance... What more do you want?

    Sigh, is rather hard to get the idea to your head, can anyone who know try?

    The community is not going to destack no matter how much you want it... The devs have to change the player cap rules to make sure players are not stacking and match ups are more even... Alliances are a measure to prevent stacking...

    This is a case of you needing to read the official dev communications and gain a better understanding. The devs are addressing this issue, and only on their end can it be fixed.

    Edit- The very first reply was mine and answered your questions...

    “From the stickied thread posted by Raymond Lukes...

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/45856/world-restructuring-update-1

    “What makes up a world?

    We will build a world from any number of Alliances, Guilds, and Solo Players. This means a single alliance will not necessarily dominate the population of a world. The goal is to create even worlds, so the matchmaker builds the worlds out of whatever pieces makes sense to fulfill that goal.

    Alliance size

    We are currently leaning toward alliance size being 500. This is technically easier, as we already support groups of this size (guilds), and it gives us more flexibility to make the worlds even.””

    "It's that sorta mentality that prevents progress from actually being made and the game from being fun for everyone and not the minority." -TexZero

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9804/idea-wvw-only-movement-skills

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sigh....let me give one example (which I already given anwyay)

    What you think the community can do to discourage bandwagoning/stacking

    • Raise awareness, literally.
      Talk to your friends, your guildies, strangers or even map chat. Discuss about bandwagoning/stacking, talk about the negative impacts of it and better still, how it is affecting you. The basic idea here to educate the not informed individuals about it. This is in hope that in future, if individuals or any guilds decided to bandwagon or stack, at least they might recall said conversations of the negative impacts and perhaps they will reconsider their decision. This will not bring results overnight but the goal is not to seek that kind of result but to path the way of having a well informed community which will lead to a better wvw environment.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    Sigh....let me give one example (which I already given anwyay)

    What you think the community can do to discourage bandwagoning/stacking

    • Raise awareness, literally.
      Talk to your friends, your guildies, strangers or even map chat. Discuss about bandwagoning/stacking, talk about the negative impacts of it and better still, how it is affecting you. The basic idea here to educate the not informed individuals about it. This is in hope that in future, if individuals or any guilds decided to bandwagon or stack, at least they might recall said conversations of the negative impacts and perhaps they will reconsider their decision. This will not bring results overnight but the goal is not to seek that kind of result but to path the way of having a well informed community which will lead to a better wvw environment.

    Again, I know you have good intentions but that’s not going to happen...

    The devs are making the alliance system to accomplish that goal.

    "It's that sorta mentality that prevents progress from actually being made and the game from being fun for everyone and not the minority." -TexZero

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9804/idea-wvw-only-movement-skills

  • Loosmaster.8263Loosmaster.8263 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    Sigh....let me give one example (which I already given anwyay)

    What you think the community can do to discourage bandwagoning/stacking

    • Raise awareness, literally.
      Talk to your friends, your guildies, strangers or even map chat. Discuss about bandwagoning/stacking, talk about the negative impacts of it and better still, how it is affecting you. The basic idea here to educate the not informed individuals about it. This is in hope that in future, if individuals or any guilds decided to bandwagon or stack, at least they might recall said conversations of the negative impacts and perhaps they will reconsider their decision. This will not bring results overnight but the goal is not to seek that kind of result but to path the way of having a well informed community which will lead to a better wvw environment.

    Again, I know you have good intentions but that’s not going to happen...

    The devs are making the alliance system to accomplish that goal.

    Maybe...Soon?

    Fàther (TK)
    Tactical Killers
    Server(DR)

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭
    edited September 25, 2018

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    • What you think the community can do to discourage bandwagoning/stacking
    • What you think anet can do now (in reasonable timeline) to discourage bandwagoning/stacking

    The topic is rather moot now as Anet are working on Alliances. That aside, the transfer circus we have now stems from the community trying to discourage (or at least circumventing) the stacking. We have the circus because organized players move to get away from bandwagoning players. Then the bandwagon follows and the organized players transfer again. Well, for EU it has been like that for a while now anyway. Either way it is one example of how "the community" tried to deal with the bandwagon balance issues.

    What Anet can do is to limit or make it less rewarding to bandwagon. I would have preferred the latter. With alliances you could say that they are aiming for the first. They are giving the organized players more options and the bandwagoneers less options. They are affecting the balance of the issue without necessarily adressing the issue itself. For better or worse that choice will also give "the community" more responsibility over the situation as they are given more tools to affect it.

  • @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    Sigh....let me give one example (which I already given anwyay)

    What you think the community can do to discourage bandwagoning/stacking

    • Raise awareness, literally.
      Talk to your friends, your guildies, strangers or even map chat. Discuss about bandwagoning/stacking, talk about the negative impacts of it and better still, how it is affecting you. The basic idea here to educate the not informed individuals about it. This is in hope that in future, if individuals or any guilds decided to bandwagon or stack, at least they might recall said conversations of the negative impacts and perhaps they will reconsider their decision. This will not bring results overnight but the goal is not to seek that kind of result but to path the way of having a well informed community which will lead to a better wvw environment.

    You still are ignoring human nature. It's a Prisoner's Dilemma: while the best "reward" for the entire community is to even out the match ups (by not stacking), the best reward for any individual (whether gold/hour or fun/hour) comes from stacking (imbalanced matchups, with 'our' side have the advantage).

    There's a ton of research about how to convince individuals to focus on the best group outcome and on how to get groups to to collectively refocus their thinking and actions. The short of it is: it's not something that people can do in the short term and it takes a lot of work and a lot of trust.


    There's even an infamous example of how difficult this is in within GW2 WvW history: the legendary Tournament pitting the ever-stacked BG versus the often-stacked JQ versus the never-stacked (at least back then) TC. Based on past match ups, the only way for JQ or TC to win was to team up against BG. There were long & drawn out War Council discussions, /map-wide discussions, and JQ+TC council discussions ... all to encourage people to believe that it was in their collective best interest to let the enemy-of-our-enemy keep their third and fight only BG. (I over-simplify: the rules were somewhat more complicated.)

    And even at the most cooperative period, around the 2nd-3rd week, it was incredibly challenging to maintain the 'truce', because individual players and guilds didn't want to postpone their fun each week. Some people could only play during reset and (at times) things could get dull if all of BG was capped by JQ or TC. It might be in the collective best interest to team up, but it wasn't in the individual WvWarrior's or individual guild's immediate interest to do so.

    The fact that it worked isn't proof that it's possible to delay gratification in pursuit of higher goals. Rather it's a testament to just how ridiculously crazy hard it is to make that happen for just two worlds, never mind the entire WvW population. In the tourney, the benefit was well-defined and the sacrifices were short term. In the case of ending stacking, the pluses are ill-defined and the sacrifices will go on indefinitely. It's asking people to give up more for longer, without any guarantee of a positive outcome that makes it all worthwhile.

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If you try, there may be no positive outcome. But, if you don't try, there is definitely no positive outcome.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Sadly community will never try. Everyone complained about server stacking yet almost everyone were moving around the hyped stacked server over and over again. It's not that people are not aware of it but they are unwilling to destack. It's in human nature.

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