Why most of the stances are underwhelming and unused

This OP is not to state how to improve them as there are plenty posts with great ideas already. So this is my post to state the reasons i see the stances are underwhelming and boring so we can reflect over that and discuss if they need to be improved or not.

Bear stance: 25 seconds is simply too long for an damage sponge dps class. Most of the times i'm just wondering were my heal is because it heals for little and takes too long to come off CD. That's why i use WHaO or TU and never used Glyph (i had to drop celestial shadow) or the trap.

Moa stance: The core idea is good but I simply don't conceive any use for this stance outside from raids with LoP. I see a wasted slot in an skill which every 25 seconds allows me to increase 2 seconds my 3 seconds quickness application . Or 1 second my 2 seconds protection. The core idea is good, it just need to be better designed with SB/ranger in mind as this stance seems better fitting for a class with long boon application than SB with those short applications.

Vulture stance : This one has no use other than using the venom trait leech from SB. And even then the split effect and the interval makes the stance almost like a wasted slot. Also the 45 seconds. This stance need to be rethinked.

Glyphon stance : This is like an 8 seconds version of the food which gives might on dodge and increase the endurance generation by a 30%. The core idea is good (to provide more active defences) but the execution is uninspired. If i need enhanced endurance i get the food which last for 30 minuted, not the stance. This stance would need to be rethinked.

Doylak stance: This one is the only i use. The effects are good (not only the stability but also the immunity to certain conditions) and the CD is correct. All stances should follow it's lead.

One Wolf Pack : I don't how to feel about this stance. On paper seems good in game is terrible as it doesn't bring anything to the table. Damage is low, the interval means the few AoEs the ranger has are a wasted opportunity for this skill. This stance same as Moa just need some improvements to make it good.

So i end up just using Doylak simply because any class needs stability. The other stances i find them with no objective or usability. And what i mean is while we may keep the open usability of an skill still need an objective use for such and not to drop in there random effects. Ideas? I have some but those are my biased opinions which could not fit in the gran scheme of things, so i'd like to hear your ideas.

Do you think stances are fine right now how they are? How would you improve them otherwise in a way which isn't affected by the scaling of transferring it to 5 people?

I use Moa, Dolyak and Bear and am still trying out OWP here and there, not sure yet about OWP, the numbers are annoying to read out post fight... I agree with you on Vulture/Gryphon, they seem undertuned/underwhelming, and on Dolyak which is just fine.

I disagree however on Bear and Moa, but with the caveat that it's mainly for wvw reasons. I find Bear invaluable in large wvw fights. The condition spam is such that it cleanses condis, always heals for the maximum amount possible, can be shared to allies, and is on the move which tips it over Healing Spring for me, unless the group is short of elementalists and absolutely needs those water fields.

As for Moa, there are two sides. The useful side is that due to the 50% cut on stance duration for allies, Moa helps address that a bit, making Dolyak stability long enough again to be useful. And on the not-that-useful-but-handy, in addition to yet-another source of fury and a bit of protection, it's great to stack boons on self. Moa stance, Warhorn 5 and merged Raven F2 stack about a minute of swiftness, which is nice for lazy sods like me. :D

edit: oh, and wanted to add that imho, Moa stance has some of the biggest potential for an in-game skill, which means it'll fatally get nerfed into oblivion at some point. The combo potential of that extended boon duration shared to 5 people of any class is off the scale.

I found Bear Stance to be really good in PvP settings. Sure the initial healing is less but cleansing 2 conditions per second and healing 400+ off each more than makes up for it. It's not as great in PvE because condis from mobs are generally fewer, shorter, and less frequent. So I think it's ok, just a bit more specialized.

The others aren't great options ATM. Cooldown reduction on the trait would help but eh.

CD's are too long for their duration. Dolyak, Bear, and Moa are great stances as is, and should be used. The rest are trash.

@anduriell.6280 said:This OP is not to state how to improve them as there are plenty posts with great ideas already. So this is my post to state the reasons i see the stances are underwhelming and boring so we can reflect over that and discuss if they need to be improved or not.

Bear stance: 25 seconds is simply too long for an damage sponge dps class. Most of the times i'm just wondering were my heal is because it heals for little and takes too long to come off CD. That's why i use WHaO or TU and never used Glyph (i had to drop celestial shadow) or the trap.

Moa stance: The core idea is good but I simply don't conceive any use for this stance outside from raids with LoP. I see a wasted slot in an skill which every 25 seconds allows me to increase 2 seconds my 3 seconds quickness application . Or 1 second my 2 seconds protection. The core idea is good, it just need to be better designed with SB/ranger in mind as this stance seems better fitting for a class with long boon application than SB with those short applications.

Vulture stance : This one has no use other than using the venom trait leech from SB. And even then the split effect and the interval makes the stance almost like a wasted slot. Also the 45 seconds. This stance need to be rethinked.

Glyphon stance : This is like an 8 seconds version of the food which gives might on dodge and increase the endurance generation by a 30%. The core idea is good (to provide more active defences) but the execution is uninspired. If i need enhanced endurance i get the food which last for 30 minuted, not the stance. This stance would need to be rethinked.

Doylak stance: This one is the only i use. The effects are good (not only the stability but also the immunity to certain conditions) and the CD is correct. All stances should follow it's lead.

One Wolf Pack : I don't how to feel about this stance. On paper seems good in game is terrible as it doesn't bring anything to the table. Damage is low, the interval means the few AoEs the ranger has are a wasted opportunity for this skill. This stance same as Moa just need some improvements to make it good.

So i end up just using Doylak simply because any class needs stability. The other stances i find them with no objective or usability. And what i mean is while we may keep the open usability of an skill still need an objective use for such and not to drop in there random effects. Ideas? I have some but those are my biased opinions which could not fit in the gran scheme of things, so i'd like to hear your ideas.

Do you think stances are fine right now how they are? How would you improve them otherwise in a way which isn't affected by the scaling of transferring it to 5 people?

Bear stance and all others are designed with group support in mind first and personal use after, bear stance+leader of the pack +supportive pet provides aoe condi clear that even druid lacks on top of impairing condition temporary immunity."One wolf pack" is a temporary group burst increase mostly seen in wvw, it has its uses, some of the stances may need their numbers upped a little or not....but all in all the stances are far from useless

Changing Leader of the Pack to share full duration and give a cooldown reduction on stances would go a long way.

I'm not sure what to do about the stances themselves to be honest.

All of them, aside from wolf, seem to be almost entirely pvp focused but their share nature means they can't be too good which puts them at odds with our other, much better, personal utilities.

For example, gryphon sounds good on paper but why would I ever take it over a traited lightning reflexes if I wanted extra endurance? Same with bear vs trolls.

I'm all right with Bear & Dolyak Stance. The rest could use better concepts. Adjustments such as lower cooldowns (Griffon) or being able to affect multiple foes within the interval (Vulture/One Wolf Pack) would help, though, probably not enough.

I've used Bear stance, just to get rid of TU after dropping cleanse-on-survival-utility in favor of more poison damage. I found it very un-useful for pve, and am considering other options. As for Dolyak stance, I guess I've just gotten used to not having a lot of stability, so I haven't felt a need to add it. I'll note that I do pve and spvp, and do not touch wvw unless I really need to for farming purposes.

None of the other stances, especially the elite, really seemed to justify a spot on my bar.

This is from my other thread on how i would personally changes the stances as i find them rather lacking myself:Stances: Pretty bad is putting it nicely for some of them, This is where the design of Signets would have been AWESOME. Having them be buffed/different depending on Your pet type when in Soulbeast would have been awesome! They are just overall lacking, boring and not very fun to use.

Bear Stance: Plain heal. Decent. Solid is really all you can say. Its just a little on the boring side.Dolyak Stance: Again, decent nothing exciting. Not too strong. Not too weak but not really enough to say "wow" or anythingVulture Stance: Solid. Though not more useful to me at least when someone is under 50% health.Griffon Stance: Boring as anything, BIG cool down down for such a little effectMoa Stance: Boon spam. Yay!...One Wolf Pack: Boring. Boring. Boring

There are ways i would personally change them. Just ways i would.

Bear stance: While its boring i would say its in an okay spot. Not too strong and not too weak.Dolyak Stance: Its a little boring but not sure how to improve it. Maybe Rather than preventing movmeent conditions. If it applied 3seconds Resistance when you get applied by a Movement condition (during its active use) on say a 3second cool down?Griffon Stance: Reduce the cool down! and make it so that you get 100endurance when procedVulture Stance: Remove the 50% health part. Make it just Poison and that would be great for me.Moa Stance: Again not sure how to improve this, remove the boon increase part for a start (not everyone is a boon bot!) and add something else.One Wolf Pack: Not sure how to change this but i think having it so it works different In Beastmode would be cool. Make it so that you summon 2 Versions of your current pet for 10seconds. They have 50% of the stats of the original. You also keep your beastmode buff. Outside Beastmode. Maybe the same effect but summons a single pet for the same 10seconds. Same stats as your current pet. Increase cool down to like 75seconds

Vulture Stance: Remove the 50% health condition, the interval and might application. Reduce the Poison duration to 3s. Reduce the CD to 24s. As it is now, you need it plus a GM trait to maybe get the same benefit as Spider Venom.

Griffon Stance: Reduce the CD to 30s. Remove the endurance regeneration and make the skill effect grant 10 endurance per second for 10s. That way it will bypass the 100% endurance regen cap and give good synergy with Vigor, Natural Vigor, Primal Reflexes, Strider's Defense and LoyF. Change the "on-evade" proc to "on-dodge" and "on-evade".

I really like wolf pack, just the CD is a little long for it to really shine, but seriously try it with longbow 2 or 5, or warhorn 4 or smoke assault.

A nice combo wombo I do is let pet engage enemy, > during pets attack (f2 or burst)> I longbow 3 ,> cast one wolf pack and merge triggering unstop union and rapid fire, for some insane burst. (If you want to say fuck cleanse and go sun's out guns out, you can run shouts, and marksmanship for the piercing arrows.)

If with smoke I'll smoke assault following burst and swap to gs and mual > stun >maul> worldly impact.

I really like Leader of the Pack, what it allows us to do. I have a pretty high viewed topic about it. At the end I posted some ideas of my own.The idea was to either give Leader of the pack a change (adding extra effects to stances just like Shortbow trait does), or change the core stances a bit to make them more usable all-round instead of only in a support spec with Leader of the Pack.These were the ideas:

• Leader of the pack now applies your stance effects to nearby allies (no duration decrease)
• Vulture Stance applies both effects every hit regardless of health threshold
• Griffon Stance (30sec cooldown default) now removes a condition on successful evade
• Bear Stance adds Resistance while active
• One Wolf Pack now adds a stack of bleeding per hit (8 sec)

I originally had Dolyak and Moa stance changes on there, but that was mostly if Leader of the pack would add additional effects to Stances rather than improve stances by default, they were:

• Dolyak Stance adds Regeneration
• Moa Stance adds Quickness while active

I really think most of the above changes are justifiable and in theme with the stances themselves, One Wolf Pack applying bleeding would make a lot of sense honestly.

I think the main problem with the stances are that they are designed AND balanced around LotP. There is no scenario where I would ever consider taking Gryphon or Vulture stance, for my personal build. Heck, even a traited TU is better than Bear stance. I will only start to consider them after looking at the LotP trait. And what kind of design policy is that? It's like Anet thought to themselves "Rangers have asked for more group presence, other than druid heal. What if we give them a trait, that would allow them to share party support? And we can have it be a grandmaster to differentiate between Soulbeast playstyles!". And then they designed the stances with that specific trait in mind. But that leads us to the problem we currently have: Some of the stances with LotP are worth considering for added group support, and some are just too undertuned. But without LotP they just fall short on basically all of out other utilities. Make it so the stances are worth taking untraited, and rather balance the shared effects to not make them too broken...

In pve, you can boon spam doing Moa Stance => Dolyak Stance => Rampage as One => Heal as One => Beast Mode (need the Fresh Reinforcement trait) for an absurd amount of Fury, Swiftness, Retaliation, a Stack of 25 Stability and around 8-10 seconds of Protection

@Lévis.5489 said:In pve, you can boon spam doing Moa Stance => Dolyak Stance => Rampage as One => Heal as One => Beast Mode (need the Fresh Reinforcement trait) for an absurd amount of Fury, Swiftness, Retaliation, a Stack of 25 Stability and around 8-10 seconds of Protection

Or just focus on the party-wide boons, adding Call of the Wild in there just because you can, and let your boonshare mesmer friend add his own and multiply it all, with 66% increased durations thanks to the shared Moa buff.

Also, consuming the Plasma from Siamoth F2 is a baseline 10s of all boons (well, almost, stab and retal are shorter). That's 16.5s under Moa with 0 concentration, not a bad opener.

It starts with the necessity to equip a traitline where you pick the least miserable out of nine traits instead of picking traits that you actually want. Then you get very unimpressive effects on moderately high cool downs. Especially if you consider that boons are not particularly great when the most popular classes are spellbreaker and scourge.I feel like there isn't much missing, but almost all stances are not quite there yet e.g. bear stances could use a cool down reduction/a trait that reduces stance cd by 20%. Moa stance would be a good alternative to protect me, if it broke stun.