Crazy Idea to balance Stealth all across the table and btw give thief an spot in WvW squads

What about to change the stealth mechanic to:Stealth: makes the player invisible, stealth is broken when the player casues damage (so like until now) BUT:

Stealth changes

• Thief and other sources of Shadow magic. Stealth only works for enemies farther than 450 units. Any foe withing 450 units of the stealthed player can see him although it doesn't reveal them.
• Mesmer and other sources of mind magic / illusions: Stealth only works with enemies within 450 units. Enemies further than that distance can see the mesmer although the mesmer is not revealed.

In exchange:

• Thief to have a trait to reduce the visible distance to 250 units (so basically the foe has to be in melee distance) .
• Mesmer to have a trait to increase the invisible distance to 700 units.

Additional changes:

Mesmer and Thief to have more skills which share the stealth effect.

• Mesmer already has uses as portal, wells, boon sharing to keep him in the squad now that invisibility can be used only on closed quarters.
• Thief to gain some skills with mass invisibility in a form of a smoke wall. Those skills are designed to provide cover during the push.
• Thiefs then are needed to provide stealth during the push, also thief could build to share venom and other team support effects.
• All stealth base duration are increased in a 50%. As the stealth now has a better counter play there is no reason not to facilitate staying stealthed for a bit longer ( most effects will go from 3s to 4s) so the player can use more utilities instead.

Further notes:

Having this limitations could open the door for the Camouflaje to come back in game. This effect wouldn't be limited by distance because is already limited by movement. So DE could have access to camouflage in the Elite skill instead reapply stealth limiting the effect of the skill without changing the mechanic.

RIP stealth, this is awfull

I definitely think the idea of stealth only working at a certain range in principle is nice but I'd shorten the range dramatically to something like 120.

Also I think going into stealth should not make someone invisible immediately but that they should progressively fade from view over a second or two so it can't be used to immediately drop target and reposition.

I always thought it would make sense to make weapon skills visible to others.

As in, if a Thief starts swinging it's daggers around in stealth, others will see the air being cut and hear the noises from it, similar to how Shadow Shot works already. Or if a Mesmer beings to cast Mirror Blade, you'll see the purple aura and the air being traced by the swords animation. You still wouldn't see the player or even the full weapon, but pretty much all skills have a very small "trail" when being used as well as making noises. Just make these visible to others and I think it would make stealth much easier to deal with while still giving the player a strong defense. Just means it would be better for recovering than attacking.

maybe reducing the range further to 300-240 units for all classes. even then its a pretty big deal. might work, I say its worth a try.

how does that give the thief a spot in a WvW squad ? in such an AoE fest a little 'stealth on push' is not granting the thieves spots. that little stealth is already granted with veils. just providing a better suprise and then not contributing enough during the fight certainly wont get you a spot.

how about instead of your tanky soulbeast you actually play one of those professions you have an issue with in roaming and see how better soulbeasts do against it?

btw in case of thief that would just further push thieves to play deadeye over daredevil..

@MUDse.7623 said:how does that give the thief a spot in a WvW squad?

They're not going to have a space in many squads unless they can provide some kind of ultra valuable unique utility (like venoms were supposed to be I guess) for the other players in the squad that no other class can do better or until their AoE potential rivals that of necro or ele. Group stealth is easier to do with mesmers or even scrappers and both of those have even more utility on top of stealth so thief can't really compete for those spots.

Pick is pretty much the only good place for thieves who want to play the more traditional single target assassination role in WvW and most guilds don't run pick except maybe in GvGs which don't happen much and ranger is probably better for pick anyways because it's got enormous range and some group utility in soulbeast as well.

Squad comp is all about group synergy and thief just doesn't really have much group oriented stuff to build synergies around.

I don't see how this recommendation would suddenly give thieves a spot either.

@Israel.7056 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:how does that give the thief a spot in a WvW squad?

i know but thread title says that his 'awesome' suggestion would provide them a spot.he is a ranger with rather tanky build relying on sic em to do any meaningful damage if at all, obviously that is easily counterable and he will have an issue in many roaming fights, especially against elusive builds were his long cooldown short burst phase will fail.now that his change wont do anything for zerg fights aside from making veil obsolete as it wont cover a thing. in small scale for deadeye nothing changes aside from even easier stealth for whatever reason, d/p thieves are pretty much deleted but they are already few - they might play deadeye now aswell or s/d. for mesmers well they wont be able to stealth gank as easily and they wont be able to run away as much, yet for most 1 vs 1 encounters nothing changes.so he pushes then thieves to play deadeye wich considering recent threads is for many less fun, reduces mesmers escape potential wich will probably even more increase amount of deadeyes and maybe rangers. but he on his tanky ranger still wont have a better chance fighting them. so instead of further reducing diversity in roaming i suggest he just playes what he deems to strong there, not 20 or 30 min but for a few month so he runs into people able to fight against it and maybe learn what he can do on his main against em. because no matter the profession or the build most players you run into are simply not good and killable with any build. just getting away from groups is something not anyone can and why some professions are prefered over others.

Try playing thief before making this suggestion. You will then understand that this design isnt feasible when stealth plays an extremely integral roll in thiefs survivability vs other professions with more sustains and passives. Not to mention how they can be very competitive to other professions.

Even then, theres a lot of really good players that knows how to fight thieves. And can tell when they need to start pressuring, all in, or play defensively.

A better option is to simply give every profession a trait or utility to help them Counter stealth. Not so much a deadeye as an elite is supposed to be pretty strong, but definitely vs core and daredevil. It doesn't have to be a reveal, it could easil be something like a radar to inform the player of the thiefs general location.

This skill shouldnt have a low cool down or be on an ammo systrm, as it is very unfair to completely trash any professions defensive options. The skill should also not be placed on a commonly meta utility or trait. To avoid overloading and encourage swapping utils

It seems counter intuitive but the more reveal you make available the more you push people to play full glass perma stealth variants. If you don't know he's there in the first place until you're dead, you never use your reveal ability.Players need to learn to look for the telltales of stealth, black powder and sniper's cover on the ground.. refuge.. mesmer butterflies, the giant symbol on your head saying you've been marked..
Thieves got pushed into playing this because every other play style got pushed into the dirt. I'd love to still play my dual dagger but it hasn't been viable for years. We had a decent sword/x option a few months ago which didnt rely heavily on stealth but that got the heavy handed treatment too. If thieves don't play stealth then the cries are about evades and mobility. Sometimes it seems the average skilled player just won't be happy unless thief is a sitting duck that just auto dies on leaving spawn ;)

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:how does that give the thief a spot in a WvW squad?

You're right I misread the title post.

I don't see how these changes would suddenly give thief a spot in squads either.

Squads are about synergy and this would just make thief weaker in general unless other substantial changes were made to the class.

@MUDse.7623 said:i know but thread title says that his 'awesome' suggestion would provide them a spot.he is a ranger with rather tanky build relying on sic em to do any meaningful damage if at all, obviously that is easily counterable and he will have an issue in many roaming fights, especially against elusive builds were his long cooldown short burst phase will fail.

Wow the toxicity is escalating by the second in this thread... Amazing...

@"Israel.7056" said:You're right I misread the title post.

I don't see how these changes would suddenly give thief a spot in squads either.

Squads are about synergy and this would just make thief weaker in general unless other substantial changes were made to the class.

Stealth needs rework anyway, you can see it because of the amount of DE crying in the forums. And because stealth is designed as PvE mechanic which is very toxic in any PvP game mode.

• if you play with big groups stealth is needed to make the push or baits, those are basic tactics of group combat.
• If you read the Opening post, mesmer invisibility will shift to be a close combat thing. Still will have a place in the squad because of the boon share, portals and wells.
• Thief will have a reserved spot in any squad if the squad wants to use stealth to make the push. Most commanders will want a couple of thieves just because that reason.
• Shadow Meld is broken. That skill needs a complete redesign, being able to remove the only very limited effect in game to counter stealth is a very bad design as most people in this forums pointed out hundreds of times. Apply Camouflage is a good way to fix the broken skill without changing the core design of the DE which was limited mobility with high stealth uptime.
• Silent Scope needs the same treatment to follow the same philosophy.

The other alternative, to plague the game with reveals IMHO is not the right solution as it would become a self feeding powercreep.

Just add a skill for everyone that lets them see all stealthed characters for a short period of time, no need to mess with this distance stuff.

@anduriell.6280 said:Stealth needs rework anyway, you can see it because of the amount of DE crying in the forums. And because stealth is designed as PvE mechanic which is very toxic in any PvP game mode.

the amount of QQ in the forums doenst have to reflect what actually is happening ingame. i have seen a ton more hacker QQ in the forums than i have seen hackers ingame for example.i bet there are not more than 10 deadeyes on EU servers in WvW, lets be generous and make it 15 that do not just die. but a few can cause 'a lot' of crying on the forums, i myself was a reason for quite a few of such posts and threads on the forums.i dont think it would be good to invest that many resources because of a few players. reworking stealth is a very huge task and would also require a complete thief rework to come with it most probably.

but you can remain optimistic if it helps you.

• Thief will have a reserved spot in any squad if the squad wants to use stealth to make the push. Most commanders will want a couple of thieves just because that reason.yeah.. no.The other alternative, to plague the game with reveals IMHO is not the right solution as it would become a self feeding powercreep.reveal in its current form is a terrible mechanic and not another alternative.the alternative is that people start to learn how to fight them, most of them are easily killable even in a 1 vs 1 and for a group to die to a deadeye they must be doing something wrong. sure its unlikely that you will kill a good deadeye alone but so it is with any other class. this is a teammode so just compensate in numbers.

@"anduriell.6280" said:Stealth needs rework anyway, you can see it because of the amount of DE crying in the forums. And because stealth is designed as PvE mechanic which is very toxic in any PvP game mode.

I would not judge the validity of a complaint by how often it appears on this forum most of these players are absolute bottom tier they will lose to everything and anything and think it's completely broken. I also think the word "toxic" is overused. Everything is "toxic" these days to someone it would seem.

• Thief will have a reserved spot in any squad if the squad wants to use stealth to make the push. Most commanders will want a couple of thieves just because that reason.

I mean....maybe?

An even crazier idea is to have stealth break when performing any action other than moving. You know, like with most video games.

@Clownmug.8357 said:An even crazier idea is to have stealth break when performing any action other than moving. You know, like with most video games.

Like most video games only 1 class/build can be stealthed. Gw2 everything and everyone can be stealthed on their own via combos to party/square wide stealth share. Even charr bike thing has a smoke field and leap finisher and elite snow leopard has stealth.

@anduriell.6280 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:i know but thread title says that his 'awesome' suggestion would provide them a spot.he is a ranger with rather tanky build relying on sic em to do any meaningful damage if at all, obviously that is easily counterable and he will have an issue in many roaming fights, especially against elusive builds were his long cooldown short burst phase will fail.

@"Israel.7056" said:You're right I misread the title post.

I don't see how these changes would suddenly give thief a spot in squads either.

Squads are about synergy and this would just make thief weaker in general unless other substantial changes were made to the class.

• if you play with big groups stealth is needed to make the push or baits, those are basic tactics of group combat.
• If you read the Opening post, mesmer invisibility will shift to be a close combat thing. Still will have a place in the squad because of the boon share, portals and wells.
• Thief will have a reserved spot in any squad if the squad wants to use stealth to make the push. Most commanders will want a couple of thieves just because that reason.
• Shadow Meld
  is broken. That skill needs a complete redesign, being able to remove the only very limited effect in game to counter stealth is a very bad design as most people in this forums pointed out hundreds of times. Apply
  Camouflage
  is a good way to fix the broken skill without changing the core design of the DE which was
  limited mobility with high stealth uptime
  .
• Silent Scope
  needs the same treatment to follow the same philosophy.

@anduriell.6280 said:Stealth needs rework anyway, you can see it because of the amount of DE crying in the forums. And because stealth is designed as PvE mechanic which is very toxic in any PvP game mode.

• Thief will have a reserved spot in any squad if the squad wants to use stealth to make the push. Most commanders will want a couple of thieves just because that reason.yeah.. no.The other alternative, to plague the game with reveals IMHO is not the right solution as it would become a self feeding powercreep.reveal in its current form is a terrible mechanic and not another alternative.the alternative is that people start to learn how to fight them, most of them are easily killable even in a 1 vs 1 and for a group to die to a deadeye they must be doing something wrong. sure its unlikely that you will kill a good deadeye alone but so it is with any other class. this is a teammode so just compensate in numbers.

I have to agree with Mud here.

I don't think you understand what your suggestion implies. Im really curious about why you call stealth toxic in pvp. We see it in a large number of games thats far larger in the competitive scene. To more extreme levels and sometimes no counterplay. And when there is, its usually costly to the user who wants to counter it, or selective. But I digress.

Not only are you rendering a key feature to thief completely worthless to the person it concerns the most. But you're making the assumption that a commander will see a one time group stealth as a worth while tactic for rushing. When really it isn't. More so when you have it limited to a distance before they are revealed anyways.

So lets talk about why a group wants to be seen rushing. Its an intimidation factor. If a smaller zerg sees a much larger group barreling down the hill after them, a bulk of players will actually leave. You can observe this frequently. Thid behavior aldo occurs with equally sized groups. Also keep in mind that a class between armies isn't really a desirable result unless you are significantly larger. Tgis is why theres a no mans land between zergs till one side gets reinforcements.

Sure, you can cloak and rush in to flank. But you're going to get spotted long before then. And we're talking about three seconds of stealth to close a massive distance when the rnemy has a fuck load of aoes...