Engineer: kits and identity; a partial re-imagining

Hey there,

I have been playing GW2 on and off since launch and it is known that the engineer was the final class thrown together with kits being the pick ups of beta that were added as a class mechanic.Please note that I am speaking to the theoretical and seeking to make an attempt to amend the void within the class I have enjoyed playing these last year's.

The identity of kits themselves is a tad sporadic - 3 kits that benefit from explosives, 2 kits that are of support, flamer is barely touched because of the camping aspect and using toolkit makes a utility slot redundant when you want to play (currently nerfed) turrets.

The engineer is in a fascinating place in the lore - a technological marvel that can assimilate devices and chemistry to fill almost any niche; let alone how technology has progressed in game since launch.

Kits need to fill a niche via that of following the line they are invested in - please note that there is some theorized and thematic mixing and fusion of skills and traits.

Niches/Archetypes:

Offensive: This kit is the amalgamation of bombs grenades and the mortar kit, it specialises in area of effect, damage and soft crowd control. Taking the best from each kit - the tool belt skill grant's heavy cc and area denial. it would include bombs, mines, the grenade launcher itself and perhaps even a rocket launcher depending on developmental choice.

Defensive: Combining both the toolkit and the turrets from the utility skill bar, this kit allows for area denial, hard and soft support through cc, buffing self and team from the turrets and their associated skills. The Thumper turret and the gear shield would be fused into one skill granting a block and a knock down within the area surrounding the engineer for example.

Support: A fusion of the med kit and the Elixir gun allowing for healing and buffing of teammates through supportive action and minor control to area denial from the Pylon and Elixir combination. The damaging side of this supportive kit would come from weakness and poison output to reduce enemy effectiveness, all whilst bringing healing and buffs to the team.

Precision: A new kit is that fulfills the role of acout and precision sniper whilst giving mobility to harass and create opportunities for hit and run. this kit falls into the explosive trait line as a rocket powered bow - it has longer cast times and is over single target or pissing depending on the skill, with a ammo based short range teleport as it's third or fourth skill.

Condition: this kit is the flamethrower turned up a notch or two, granting increased condition application, crowd control through blind and heavy area denial from the Wall of Fire turn into a sea of Fire with napalm further expanding it. napalm itself becoming a selectable area blast coating foes napalm periodically burning them.

Brawler: set apart in being a melee control kit that has a mindset of cc with supplemental damaging conditions with a focus on reducing incoming damage from foes - armed with glacially cooled mechanized gauntlets, this kit will exhaust, chill and slow enemies with a glass jaw. These effects are enhanced and added when a foe is crowd controlled in some way by stun, launch, daze or knock down.

Elite: due to the mortar kit being moved to the offensive kit, this has freed up a slot as a kit enhancer. with this Elite kit worn alongside any of the other kits it will further enhance their skills on top of the particular trait skills - it is meant more specifically to be used to enhance camping a particular kit rather than dancing between them. giving minor stat buffs based on the kit and tweaks and changes to the 1-5 skills to make the choice of camping a specific it more meaningful and more rewarding - this would include different or additional conditions applied, skills that can be charged for more damage or additional boons output when healing.

Kit dancing: streamlined kits would be further buffed for those wanting to keep to the kit dancing play style as to not remove the enjoyment from the game.

Kit camping: Juggernaut would be combined with iron blooded it and would turn to be a generalised trait to those who wish to camp specific kits.

Trait movement:traits such as experimental turrets and power wrench would be combined and changed to accommodate this change in kits and further accentuate the particular focus on the kit, or perhaps me meaningful Grandmaster traits similar to the Daredevils tier system.

An open skill bar:with the removal of turrets and moving them to the tool kit, this gives the core engineer a place to expand. skillwise tricks and traps both very much fit the engineer theme and potential way of play style.

Eg: Trapa temporary black hole stylised trap with crowd control siphoning enemies and a playing conditions for the duration stuck in the black hole would certainly be up the Engineers alley oop play style and mechanics.

Stylistically, engineer kits another redesign as they are very much from the beta in look and feel compared to the current Elite specs available and those in the future. An artistic pass I would give them and needed brush up shining metal and pulsing vials to bring them up to par with the PoF aesthetic.

I have spent a couple of days thinking on this; additions to the idea, criticism and feedback are all welcome. personally I much prefer looking at creating the kits then doing the traits - for the trait redesign help would be welcome.

thank you for taking the time to read this,

-Phyrak

Edit: forgot to add the fourth kit - brawler

Any thoughts from anyone? :)

i'd love to see some changes to kits but preferably something better then this.

@derd.6413 said:i'd love to see some changes to kits but preferably something better then this.

Considering the deficits the engineer has with kits and turrets, what suggestions do you have?

As for the ideas written, where can I improve upon it?

@Phyrak.7260 said:

@derd.6413 said:i'd love to see some changes to kits but preferably something better then this.

the main issue i have is that instead of making what we currently have you're completly reworking everything into something new with some themathic similarities which at best i can call being idealistic.

i personally haven't given much thought on all kits but for turrets:

picking up turrets gives no cooldown but doesn't reset health or activates overecharge when redropped

• buff the healing of toolkit auto attack (maybe some barrier too)
• all skills of toolkit should have some interaction with turrets:
  • crowbar activates overcharge
  • gearshield activates defensive bubble
  • magnet allows you to pick up turrets from a distance

Any changes to kits, or to engineer for that matter, should preserve the game play of the class while eliminating or alleviating the drawbacks. A lot of what you are suggesting (Fusing kits, integrating turrets, adding kits) would completely alter the way the class is played, which a lot of people will not like.

Instead, skills that are under-performing (box of nails, smoke bomb, smoke grenade) should be altered/buffed to make them more relevant. And clunky skills (grenades, mortars, bombs, flame blast, elixirs) should be tweaked to feel more reliable. Smaller changes like this have the benefit of producing less of a load on the devs while still providing meaningful noninvasive change.

As a core engineer main since 2013, ArenaNet has the easiest job when it comes to buffing core engineer. It involves changing numbers and reworking traits. Not a complete rework that professions like core necromancer need with core Shroud, just simple number changing and making certain traits benefit kits rather than being general traits that benefit Holosmith.

When I say changing numbers, I mean something like increasing the poison duration on Fumigate, increasing the bleed stacks on Shrapnel Grenade from 1 to 3, reducing the cast time and increasing the cripple duration on Box of Nails (they did this with Elixir H, so why not with the Tool Kit), increasing the confusion stacks and duration on Pry Bar and maybe even bringing back the old block duration on Gear Shield.

With so many professions being able to cleanse conditions with ease, I believe that core engineer should be able to reliably apply conditions on foes. For example, Poison Grenade could have its cooldown reduced from 25 seconds to 15 seconds, Fumigate from 12 seconds to 10 seconds, Acid Bomb could apply Drop Gunk instead of being a power damage skill etc.

As for reworking traits, Grenadier is a good candidate for a rework. It's so mandatory to use with the Grenade Kit that not using it makes the kit useless. Iron Blooded could be reworked to give engineer physical and condition damage reduction when using the Elixir Gun rather than being based on the number of boons. Other traits could be buffed rather than reworked such as Backpack Regenerator. Since it requires the engineer to camp kits, I don't think increasing the healing you get by a lot would make core engineer too problematic.

Another thing I would love to see get a buff are the elite toolbelt skills. Holosmith doesn't have access to the elite toolbelt skills, so making the elite toolbelt skills more impactful is something that'll make Holosmith players think twice on what they're missing out on when they're not playing core engineer or Scrapper. Supply Crate could have its cooldown reduced from 120 seconds to 60 seconds while Med Pack Drop can have its cooldown reduced while also increasing the healing you get from the bandages.

@derd.6413 said:

@Phyrak.7260 said:

@derd.6413 said:i'd love to see some changes to kits but preferably something better then this.

• buff the healing of toolkit auto attack (maybe some barrier too)
• all skills of toolkit should have some interaction with turrets:
  • crowbar activates overcharge
  • gearshield activates defensive bubble
  • magnet allows you to pick up turrets from a distance

Thank you for the information :)

A little bit of idealism does help for forums as they tend to become a tad nihilistic over time - prior to the new forums one could look at the old thief sub forum to such a culture, maybe even the old necro forum too.Anyhow, not the main reason of this discussion.

I like the way of the turrets being magnetized - yet this highlights the issue of running a full turret build. If you want to heal them and get the most out of them, you need to run the tool kit which removes the place of a turret.

Yet, setting them into archetypes is a little on the optimistic side but it does show the missing synergy and character that engineer is missing compared to other classes and their defining features.

The net turret combined with magnet would certainly help with dragging a foe to you and then locking them down with a follow up shot - being it via ammo system, chain skill or auto summon of the turret on using the skill.

@Phyrak.7260 said:

Considering the deficits the engineer has with kits and turrets, what suggestions do you have?

What deficits are you referring to? I only see redundancies. Grenade, bomb, flamethrower, and mortar kit all seem to offer hybrid dps options while some (flamethrower, mortar) offer more utility than others. Also, Anet, why do four kits have the same fucking blindness skill. As for turrets, both rocket and rifle turret provide 1000 range power dps. Personally, I don't mind the redundancy of rifle/rocket turret, one provides steady dps while the other is more bursty. I more dislike how utterly useless flame turret is (it can't even maintain 100% uptime of 1 stack of burning). And look at the overcharge, there's that blindness again.

@Phyrak.7260 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Phyrak.7260 said:

@derd.6413 said:i'd love to see some changes to kits but preferably something better then this.

• buff the healing of toolkit auto attack (maybe some barrier too)
• all skills of toolkit should have some interaction with turrets:
  • crowbar activates overcharge
  • gearshield activates defensive bubble
  • magnet allows you to pick up turrets from a distance

diffrence between optimistic and unrealistic

I like the way of the turrets being magnetized - yet this highlights the issue of running a full turret build. If you want to heal them and get the most out of them, you need to run the tool kit which removes the place of a turret.

i don't think it's an issue as much as it is a trade off, either you get more turrets to cover more ground or you take one less to make other ones more powerfull. a quallity or quantity kinda question.

Yet, setting them into archetypes is a little on the optimistic side but it does show the missing synergy and character that engineer is missing compared to other classes and their defining features.

i have to disagree, the issue lies more in the redundancy of some kits (grenade/bomb being the more Obvious ones) and even then your suggestion is a bit on the unrealistic side of sollutions

The net turret combined with magnet would certainly help with dragging a foe to you and then locking them down with a follow up shot - being it via ammo system, chain skill or auto summon of the turret on using the skill.

@Hoodie.1045 said:

As for reworking traits, Grenadier is a good candidate for a rework. It's so mandatory to use with the Grenade Kit that not using it makes the kit useless.

This is not true. Grenade kit is currently only viable for PVE content where throw velocity has little effect. Take a look at Metabattle and you will see that any build that uses grenade kit does not use grenadier. While I agree that grenadier should be baseline, it hardly scratches the surface of what is wrong with that kit. Is it a condi weapon, or a power weapon? Either way the damage on it is awful and it offers zero utility.

@Hoodie.1045 said:As a core engineer main since 2013, ArenaNet has the easiest job when it comes to buffing core engineer. It involves changing numbers and reworking traits.

I also disagree with you here. Condi engineer is already on par with the other classes in terms of dps. You can't just buff their skills without balancing. If you want stronger kits something has to change about how kits are fundamentally implemented.

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:

@Phyrak.7260 said:

Considering the deficits the engineer has with kits and turrets, what suggestions do you have?

I guess it comes to the mentality/play style difference and seeking for preservation of the current along with creation of new ones whilst giving a platform for growth with incoming E specs.

Redundancy in theme and a mix of utility or lack thereof combined with something like turrets being easily destroyed makes me wish for more out of the engineer.

By refinement to allow for absolute focus of camping kits or letting someone play the piano of the kits to great skill is something I seek, yet something like juggernaut is against the grain and at least from what I can say I have seen; isn't a common pick from how FT works compared to the rest.

As for the toolkit/turret combination - this idea is to have greater control over the turrets; both in placement/context their combat out put and emphasis on the toolkit abilities.Working them somewhat like Guardian Spirit weapons for maximum output whilst playing alongside the tool kit skills that they would naturally synergize with (net turret/magnet for example) would be one way of looking at it.

@derd.6413 said:

@Phyrak.7260 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Phyrak.7260 said:

@derd.6413 said:i'd love to see some changes to kits but preferably something better then this.

• buff the healing of toolkit auto attack (maybe some barrier too)
• all skills of toolkit should have some interaction with turrets:
  • crowbar activates overcharge
  • gearshield activates defensive bubble
  • magnet allows you to pick up turrets from a distance

I like the way of the turrets being magnetized - yet this highlights the issue of running a full turret build. If you want to heal them and get the most out of them, you need to run the tool kit which removes the place of a turret.

Yet, setting them into archetypes is a little on the optimistic side but it does show the missing synergy and character that engineer is missing compared to other classes and their defining features.

The net turret combined with magnet would certainly help with dragging a foe to you and then locking them down with a follow up shot - being it via ammo system, chain skill or auto summon of the turret on using the skill.

A close friend of mine says I am little on the optimistic side of things; once I write a concept he helps me to meter it back a little into a more reasonable approach. Unfortunately he hasn't picked up GW2 in a long while so we can't chat about it.

I guess I seek a little more out of engineer in it's flexibility whilst still trying to allow it to keep it's core functionality

@Hoodie.1045 said:As a core engineer main since 2013, ArenaNet has the easiest job when it comes to buffing core engineer. It involves changing numbers and reworking traits.

They nerfed Themal Vision by 5% in the previous balance patch and it made condi engi's damage worse. It was nerfed for no reason and considering that core engineer needs to work five times harder than any other profession, lowering the DPS was uncalled for.

I think most of the kits can stay mostly the same just change one or two skills in each to make them more effective as some are literally not worth the time to cast (box of nails, glob shot). The only one I'd want a rework for is mortar kit. Should be more power based and not have such a ridiculous arc on the shots. I'd like to see it shoot like a faster version of the homing missile that the underwater harpoon gun auto is like and also have new attacks and not just field spam.

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@Hoodie.1045 said:As a core engineer main since 2013, ArenaNet has the easiest job when it comes to buffing core engineer. It involves changing numbers and reworking traits.

This particular harder working for DPS is something that I got thinking on for this idea.

A manner of viability for those who can dance between kits and for those who wish to camp them

The extra work load to match DPS isn't something I am a fan of

I agree with the basic idea that engie needs a base rework. I also think the rework needs to focus on kits as the profession mechanic.But I feel your proposed changes are excessive in extension, while being too small in basic mechanics. You mix kits, separate effects, create new skills, alter traits... but in the end, we will have the same problem as today: kits becoming weak to avoid OP stuff but still being the main engie feature, impacting everything else and making all super hard to balance. How will toolbox skills work or change with your proposal? How will it affect basic weapon usage? What are the benefits, costs of opportunity, drawbacks and main impact on gameplay?I other words, what these changes are meant to accomplish?

@"Hoodie.1045" said:

They nerfed Themal Vision by 5% in the previous balance patch and it made condi engi's damage worse. It was nerfed for no reason and considering that core engineer needs to work five times harder than any other profession, lowering the DPS was uncalled for.

I agree, I don't understand why thermal vision was nerfed either. But, the 5% reduction amounted to roughly 1k drop in dps on the current benchmarks. You could buff kits to balance this change, but you likely will not notice it since the buff must be spread over so many kits.

The problem with kits is they are incredibly difficult to balance. You can run any number of kits up to 5 kits at a time (4 if you exclude medkit). This range of selections leads to kits feeling underwhelming on their own because they were balanced according to 4 kit builds. And yet the kit has to fill the role of a weapon swap and a utility skill. The reason core engineer has to work 5 times harder than any other profession is because they have access to 5 times as many skills.

In PvP the best kits are ones that provide some utility like elixir gun and toolkit. I would have liked all kits to provide the same level of utility, but having access to 5 kits each with blocks, mobility, finishers, burst attacks, and crowd control would be incredibly overpowered. Thus you end up with kits like flamethrower, bomb, and mortar kit which have minimal utility fused with sub par dps. And in the case of grenade kit, absolutely zero utility.

Fixing the number of kits you can run, lets say two kits, would make balancing so much easier. It would also allow for more meaningful skills to be added. Making each kit feel unique and useful on their own.

How they balance the Elementalist Attunements?

I think that the hybrid nature of grenades, bombs, and other kits is the problem. If all kits have conditions on them, then buffing one of them buffs builds that use all kits.

If kits were made to do specific roles, there would be far less problems with running.

Ie, if grenade kit was power only, buffing it wouldn't affect Condi builds. And vice versa.

My suggestionsGrenade kit, power rangedBomb kit, power meleeTool kit, Condi meleeFlame thrower, Condi mid rangedElixir gun, mixed heal and Condi

Kill power scaling on Condi kits, kill Condi on power kits. Leave some control conditions on power kits such as chill, vuln, weakness. Now Condi or power buffs don't affect all kits and force you to piano through 3/4 kits to get max dps.Start with something like this and see where it goes. I'm sure anet could refine this better than my rough idea here.

@Phyrak.7260 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Phyrak.7260 said:

@derd.6413 said:i'd love to see some changes to kits but preferably something better then this.

• buff the healing of toolkit auto attack (maybe some barrier too)
• all skills of toolkit should have some interaction with turrets:
  • crowbar activates overcharge
  • gearshield activates defensive bubble
  • magnet allows you to pick up turrets from a distance

I find that idealism is what leads to nihilism. By focusing on what you wish you had in an ideal world people become nihilistic due to things not meeting their ideal version of the profession. When folks focus on ideas that really never have a shot they get upset, again, when ANet goes in a direction they feel won't live up to those ideas. It leads to folks saying that all they are hoping to do is opening Engineer up for growth and build diversity. However, Elite growth is already there. There are plenty of directions they can still take Engineer. It just isn't growth into the idealism that folks have. When it comes to things like increasing build diversity and options what is really going on is swapping in a new set of options while at the same time removing the old ones. With the level of change most people suggest you really aren't preserving the current options because if you change how something like Kits and Turrets works you automatically remove builds and options that were built on the old way of things. Everything you change will remove something we already have. Every revamp removes something we already have. Every streamline removes something we already have.

Not enough folks recognize that when they talk up the benefits of what they are proposing and how they are trying to help the Engineer community.