Necro needs Reflect and Reveal

I think necro atm is in General in a good spot. in some modes he is strong (WvW Zerg), in some modes he is close to meta(PvE).

But since many years we can see in guildwars2 the rock-scissor-paper debate in balancing. that means every class has at least some classes that counter this classes. and other that get countered by this class. i think neither anet nor the community can ever completely remove that because small Imbalances will ever exist.

counter in General means that a mechanic is countering another mechanic. so for example the counter against range is mobility. also the counter to mobility is range.blocks get countered by blockbreakers.invis get countered by reveal and so on.

but if you watch some match ups between classes you will see that all mechanics of one class counter every mechanic of another class. than you see the so called "hard counters".

so e.g. you see a reaper Fighting against a ranger you see:

Reaper vs Rangerlow mobility vs high rangemedium range vs high mobilityno reveal vs invis….

atm there is simply no window of opportunity for reapers in fights against e.g. rangers, that have twice the range, way more mobility, more stability, more condi remove, more heal, more boons. at this Point its not a Question of skill who wins. even if you are way better than your Opponent you will loose fights. the Person with the better "class" will win this matchup. and i think there is no reason for so called "Hard counters" to be in the game because that makes the game unhealthy. People want equal fights nd test their skills against each other and a good balancing promotes this.

so i suggest to add some reflect and reveal skills to necro.

1.) the only necro spec that has reveal is the core class. but reaper and scourge both have no reveal. i also think nerfing invis will not happen because its an important mechanic on some classes to survive. there are skills for reveal in the game:

Warrior: megabane tether (SB), Sight beyond sight (SB), on my mark (core,Bers, SB)Ranger: Sick em (core, Dudu, SB)Engi: Detection pulse (SCR), Lock on (core, SCR, holo), Analyse (core, SCR, holo)Guard: Spear of justice, Lights judgement (DH)Rev: Gaze of Darkness

i know most of this skills/traits are worseso i think its time to add some reveal in General to all classes to counter perma Stealth classes. And it is important to add this reveal to core classes with Access for the e-specs too. to bring finally this counter mechanic for invis in a good place. expecially on necro, minion skills are still a possible Option to add some effects to necro class without strengthen strong skills.

2.) range is a counter to necros. but if a class has more range and more mobility than you, there is not even in Theory a Chance to fight against that class because you never com in range to hit him WHILE he hits youa ll teh time. Corrosive Poison Cloud is to weak and as power necro casting 6 sec self weakness is Overkill. necro Need an opportunity to pressure back braindead pewpew attacks. for that he Needs reflect. if some range class (Ranger, DE)is Hunting you and bursting with DJ or ranger LB 2 you can counter them by casting this reflect because you through back their dmg to themself. without that backpressure by dmg you just can wait in your Poison Cloud until it disappeared and you will still die.

my Question is not nerfing class xy, or buffing dmg again. i just ask for a window of opportunity. i am asking for at least 1 skill to counter pressure necro hardcounters to close the gap between them and necros a Little bit. that would make gw2 way more enjoyable if you are not hopelessly disadvantaged in some matchups.

So Gaze of Darkness reveals enemies in the area. Running with that theme, why not latch reveal on Well of Darkness?Then kill two birds with one stone and add projectile block to it. Reflect just doesn't feel very necro-y though.

@Zero.3871 said:Reaper vs Rangerlow mobility vs high rangemedium range vs high mobilityno reveal vs invisRegarding the need for reveal and range: So core necro counters ranger? Especially a core necro that uses poison cloud?

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Zero.3871 said:

Reaper vs Ranger

low mobility vs high rangemedium range vs high mobilityno reveal vs invisRegarding the need for reveal and range: So core necro counters ranger? Especially a core necro that uses poison cloud?

not really. ranger has up to 2000 range. core max 1200. core necro get entangled and killed Long before he come in range to ranger.

I think to fix this they need to not make reape rmore mobile or add reveal, But give necromancers more ranged counter options, So the reflect is fine maybe make reaper skill 3 in shroud reflect for its duration 9 it's not a long duration), and maybe Make staff Much stronger, or add a new 1200-1500 weapon, Maybe even update sceptre to 1200, or axe, since both are 900, Focus skills are 1200 range, and EVery other profession except thief and Revenant has more than one way to deal damage over 1200 range:

Warrior: Longbow, RifleRevenant: HammerGuardian: Staff, Longbow(Dragonhunter)Ranger: Longbow, Staff(Druid)Engineer: Rifle, Mortar KitThief: Rifle(Deadeye)Elementalist: Fire, Water, Air, Earth Staves ( technically one, but also technically 4 since they don't share Cooldowns)Mesmer: Greatsword, StaffNecromancer: Staff

The Following is not so much a "spoiler as it is a mini-rant/idea for things, I've hidden it so people can scroll past easily

!! as I mentioned in this list, Elementalist only has "one" but the fact they can have 4 staves at once IF they choose to wield a staff counts, since e.g. Earth staff 3 reflects projectiles to counter range, Fire staff 1 has slight AoE so it can hit moving targets easier.!
! Thief can stealth,which yes revealed can counte,r but id they're a deadeye they can just remove reveal,! Necromancer is where the problem of these 3 lies as you mentioned, No reflects or reveal. If we compare Revenant and necromancer auto attacks From the Wiki.! necrotic Grasp: 269 (0.666), Pierces, 1200 range, Approx 1.32 seconds per attack, 20% chance finisher! hammer Bolt: 383 (0.95), pierces, 1200 range, Approx 1.25 seconds per Attack, 100% finisher! This means Necromancer Staff auto attack has: less damage, Not always a finisher, Attacks SLOWER and Scales worse.! Necromancer getting Reveal and/or Reflects would help, however I feel there needs to be a big Rework of Necromancer staff, It's not able to perform proper damage and for life force gain you get approx. 4% a hit, as yes it pierces, but people don't stack infront of a slow moving projectile.! You could try to argue "staff is not a power weapon, it's a condi weapon" yet only 2 of the skills Apply condis that damage naturally,! Skill 3 only applies condis IF you have condis on you, and Skill 4 only damages if you have terror, which means not taking master of corruptions.! Honestly the only way I could see necromancer EFFECTIVELY getting Reveal, reflect etc Would be to "rework" the entire thing, however I am not confident in saying that because I know people would say it's fine now, it's "ok" now, I play necromancer a lot, but I can see the Damage of it is VERY weak, it's ALL about conditions or abusing weaknesses,!! Some ideas I could think of to rework things would be:! Make Axe Deal more damage at base since Vulnerability can be removed,! Give staff "physical" Fields, sort of like a guardian ward except for projectiles or beams, e.g. "players can pass through but Projectiles and beams cannot" because beams are Light and necromancer walls would be Darkness so the Light wouldn't get through the darkness,! Make Scepter apply a variety of Conditions at the moment Auto is Bleed -Bleed - Bleed/poison , 2 is Bleed/cripple and 3 is Torment! it could be made so it's Bleed-Poison -Torment, skill 2 would be cripple, weakness and skill 3 would be Chill and confusion, with the Scepter trait "Devouring Darkness" skill making it Chill, Confusion and Torment.!
! I feel like necromancers are Thematically supposed to be Condition focused, hence the low base power on skills like dagger, but so many other professions apply stronger conditions easier such as Revenant auto applying torment and poison, Mesmer sceptre applying torment,!

also, DJ CANNOT be blocked/reflected

No please no, reaper is amazing in melee, the only counterplay is kiting and stunlocking.Scourge is amazing with zonecontrol and does not need buffs. Full DPS build that can still provide decent/good support doesnt need much more.

Staff is a great addition to Scourges already amazing AoE zonecontrol, allthough lacking quite a bit on its own. So maybe do something fun there.

not really

"Need" is a big word.

Core necromancer already have projectile destruction via CPC and reveal via tainted shackles. Reaper being counter by range is a given and shouldn't be a reason to complain.

I'd say that better mean to have access to effect that can punish moderately range foe (aura/retal) when the necromancer is struck would be more appropriate than reflect and stealth isn't really a problem when you're accustomed to the game.

We have a reveal actually its on core necro death shroud skill 5 (See Tainted Shackles) and yes if you use it with a invisible target near you it will reveal them.A reflect no we dont really... we have projectile block options and at best thats all it needs to be.

@"ZDragon.3046" said:We have a reveal actually its on core necro death shroud skill 5 (See Tainted Shackles) and yes if you use it with a invisible target near you it will reveal them.A reflect no we dont really... we have projectile block options and at best thats all it needs to be.

i would acceppt your Point to reveal if core necro would have just 1 viable build in any gamemode^^. andatm neither reaper nor scourge is able to fight against a perma invis target. but just like i said. i think the amount of invis in game is huge atm, and guildwars imo Need more reveal on all classes. Maybe you think the balance between invis and reveal is okay atm, i would also be fine with your oppinion than even if i have a different one.

@Zero.3871 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:We have a reveal actually its on core necro death shroud skill 5 (See

Tainted Shackles

) and yes if you use it with a invisible target near you it will reveal them.A reflect no we dont really... we have projectile block options and at best thats all it needs to be.

Ill write out some things here that maybe you have not considered

Keep in mind that most targets that cannot do perma invis is usually limited to thief only. Thief is a counter profession to necromancer of every kind its going to be an uphill battle no matter what you use. The amount of invis is actually not that bad boons in general are much worst and a much bigger problem for the game right now.

Mesmers usually dont stay invis long enough for you to really want a reveal to fight them in the first place. At some point they are going to attack you and a reveal wont stop them from doing so.Scrappers stealth can be countered by killing the gyro / Base engi stealth does not last that long enough or is generous enough to require a reveal to fight itRanger is the one exception on this list as it does have access to more stealth than they realistically needs but a nerf to smoke scale combo field can shut that down at any time without having to simply add more reveals. I honestly dont know what the smoke scale feild is allowed to be a combo finisher its kind a broken but ranger is stupid strong right now in general.Warriors, Guardians, Necros, Rev, Ele cant stealth

No one ever mentioned viability i simply pointed out the fact that i is there and I have used it to kill perm stealth builds before. No its not going to work on its own you still have to make good reads to get the win but generally its there for use. But because you want to argue the point of viability lets look at some other reveal skills in terms of their viability in current buildsEven if we look at professions that heave reveal skills lets question how many of them realistically run those skills in most common current builds.

Ranger

• Sick em (Generally not carried even high burst soul beast dont always use this can be viable but its not something everyone opts to run)

Warrior

• On my Mark (Generally not used its not really viable in current builds just as you pointed out for the necro skill)
• Sight beyond Sight (generally not viable because its not used in current builds)
• Magebane Tether is viable but generally used for might spam sustain in combination with Might makes Right... It just also happens to reveal, this is the most viable reveal in the game right now.

Guardian /Dragon hunter only

• Light's Judgment Trap (questionable viability generally not used)
• Spear of Justice (cant do anything if your target is already invis its not really viable its just a perk you get for using Dragon hunter its more of a bonus than anything)

Engi

• Analyze (Questionably not viable in current builds and cant do anything if your target is already in stealth)
• Detection pulse ( scrapper only this is viable when running scrapper but you dont se it that often it can be avoided its not the best thing ever.)

Rev's

• Gaze of Darkness (This is viable for people who run herald but its range is fairly small more often than not if your target is hiding already you wont reveal them unless they are hugging you)Necro
• Tainted Shackles (You said was not viable and seems to be in line with alot of other reveal skills in terms of their viability)

Now that we have a list of the reveals in the game and can fairly say that the majority of them are not in your own words "Viable" to current builds. Generally fighting perma stealth is never a good idea. Perma stealth generally cant 1 shot you these days (a mesmer can but thats not perma stealth) a thief certainly can burst you quickly but you do need quick reaction time to avoid insta down in most cases its preventable giving you a chance to counter. More importantly how can you reveal a target if you cant see them most reveal skills require you to hit or be able to see your target at some brief period of time to mark them. When you consider this the core necro tether is one of the best reveal skills in the game considering that you can cast it without a target and have a good chance to hit them. Even magebane requires a a burt hit con firm to reveal.

A better message to be writing to the devs would be trying to make core more realistically viable not trying to add more reveals and reflects to other part of necro.Im not trying to bash but i felt this needed to be explained in a bit more depth.

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Zero.3871 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:We have a reveal actually its on core necro death shroud skill 5 (See

Tainted Shackles

) and yes if you use it with a invisible target near you it will reveal them.A reflect no we dont really... we have projectile block options and at best thats all it needs to be.

• Sick em (Generally not carried even high burst soul beast dont always use this can be viable but its not something everyone opts to run)

• On my Mark (Generally not used its not really viable in current builds just as you pointed out for the necro skill)
• Sight beyond Sight (generally not viable because its not used in current builds)
• Magebane Tether is viable but generally used for might spam sustain in combination with Might makes Right... It just also happens to reveal, this is the most viable reveal in the game right now.

• Light's Judgment Trap (questionable viability generally not used)
• Spear of Justice (cant do anything if your target is already invis its not really viable its just a perk you get for using Dragon hunter its more of a bonus than anything)

• Analyze (Questionably not viable in current builds and cant do anything if your target is already in stealth)
• Detection pulse ( scrapper only this is viable when running scrapper but you dont se it that often it can be avoided its not the best thing ever.)

• Gaze of Darkness (This is viable for people who run herald but its range is fairly small more often than not if your target is hiding already you wont reveal them unless they are hugging you)Necro
• Tainted Shackles (You said was not viable and seems to be in line with alot of other reveal skills in terms of their viability)

atm my experience show me best skill is spectral grasp to counter that. but it barely hit him cause this skill projectiles fly too slow. only bad DE with slow reactions/skillrotation get hit by it. i simply dont see a realistic counterplay.

@Zero.3871 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Zero.3871 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:We have a reveal actually its on core necro death shroud skill 5 (See

Tainted Shackles

) and yes if you use it with a invisible target near you it will reveal them.A reflect no we dont really... we have projectile block options and at best thats all it needs to be.

• Sick em (Generally not carried even high burst soul beast dont always use this can be viable but its not something everyone opts to run)

• On my Mark (Generally not used its not really viable in current builds just as you pointed out for the necro skill)
• Sight beyond Sight (generally not viable because its not used in current builds)
• Magebane Tether is viable but generally used for might spam sustain in combination with Might makes Right... It just also happens to reveal, this is the most viable reveal in the game right now.

• Light's Judgment Trap (questionable viability generally not used)
• Spear of Justice (cant do anything if your target is already invis its not really viable its just a perk you get for using Dragon hunter its more of a bonus than anything)

• Analyze (Questionably not viable in current builds and cant do anything if your target is already in stealth)
• Detection pulse ( scrapper only this is viable when running scrapper but you dont se it that often it can be avoided its not the best thing ever.)

• Gaze of Darkness (This is viable for people who run herald but its range is fairly small more often than not if your target is hiding already you wont reveal them unless they are hugging you)Necro
• Tainted Shackles (You said was not viable and seems to be in line with alot of other reveal skills in terms of their viability)

Its ideally a guessing game to be honest. There are moments to make counterplays but they are thin and small in number even more so for necro over almost any other profession because necro has super soft defensive skills and not hard active ones like reflects/invulns/ blocks etc.

As i said its an uphill fight regardless of which spec you use. Warriors do most certainly have the option to counter them but ideally if you keep letting the DE get 1500 range each time he attacks form stealth then just dont fight him let them come to you instead. if the only attack at the very edge of 1500 range then you can take a few steps and avoid the damage by simply being out of range. (Honestly this is not realistic) most of the time they are roughly 900-1200 ish range or lower. I wont say its not a pain to fight them and that it cant feel impossible at times but generally having an extra reveal is likely not going to help you in the situation you described. The odds of necro getting a reveal that hits at 1200 range is about as likely as them getting stealth.

I personally dont fight perma stealth that often but clearly you do. You might need to explore more options to fighting against it or even ask them after the fact that they killed you how does some one fight their build. Generally most people in the game are not total butts and will tell you tips if you ask.

I can see a defensive support elite vs a barrier elite but there is not that great a need to differentiate between them.

Maybe the next elite will have a reflect but I would not call it a need.

More reveals are not needed in the game. Permastealth DEs aren’t going to burst you in seconds and will just wear you down through kiting. Non-permastealth thieves will burst you in seconds. The problem isn’t stealth, it’s the range. I think the reflects are what’s needed, or some reliable pulls.