make staff a hybrid condi/utility weapon?

I've been getting into Revenant more lately. As many other have noted, there is no seconday weapon set to mace/axe if you wanted to run a Condi build on core.

What do you all think of adding torment, bleeding, or poison on 1-2 of staffs skills so at least you could keep some pressure up on a swap?

If this wasn't Revenant, I could see that but you can keep pressure up on a condi utility build because you are using Demon anyways. If anything, I would say improve the Demon skills (or some minor condi apps on other legends) before messing around with weapons.

Renegade and shortbow.

Oh you said core, no comment then...

Yeah, you'd be better off with Renegade and shortbow than just core. I'm also not sure staff would be a better choice. If anything sword is likely better as Rev can already add torment when they chill and sword 2 chills.

No, staff is not meant to be a condi weapon and should absolutely not changed to be such. Like @Dace.8173 said, sword can be made semi-hybrid via Abyssal Chill. It is not ideal, but probably the best bet. Would be nice to have an additional condi set added baseline, like scepter/focus.

You can also add Sigil of Hydromancy and so you will chill on weapon swap and do torment at the same time. My torment based condi build (Renegade, Kalla/Mal with shortbow and mace/axe though sometimes swap in sword/sword or sword/axe depending on mood) runs with Sigil of Hydromancy. For a time I debated Sigil of Water but eeeeehhh 30% chance is not as good as just going with Sigil of Torment. It's not as good as a dedicated condi weapon for core Rev but we do have options to help mitigate the situation. I'm not sure why folks try to make staff a condi weapon when main hand sword is clearly the best choice since it already inflicts vulnerability and chill. I know it's not as fantastic as some of the other professions but I often wonder why everyone makes Revenant's situation so bleak.

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:No, staff is not meant to be a condi weapon and should absolutely not changed to be such. Like @Dace.8173 said, sword can be made semi-hybrid via Abyssal Chill. It is not ideal, but probably the best bet. Would be nice to have an additional condi set added baseline, like scepter/focus.

I would love a dagger/dagger Elite that stacked condi damage while letting your port around akin to how Mesmer/Mirage gets to teleport around folks. Honestly, I feel it's a no-brainer for Revenant considering their Mist based powers and the fact that when Revenant dodges they vanish into the Mists. I think from here on out while others are pushing greatsword and scepter/focus I'm gonna push dagger/dagger + Mist teleports! :D Who knows, maybe I'll attract a small following to the idea.

the ONLY weapon with Multiple "sets" is power, which is sword/sword and Hammer, Staff is a healy/support weapon and mace/axe is Condi, so Unless they plan on removing Healy weapons from rev entirely, I don't think it's a good idea, especially sonce both staff and mace/axe are melee

They just need to add another core weapon.

Staff is the only Support weapon we have. No way.Add more Core Weapons. Need a core Mainhand Support weapon as well to be honest. Nothing goes with Shield for healing.

My Suggestions for new Core Weapons:

Dagger Main hand - Ranged Condition DamageScepter - Support HealingOff Hand Dagger - Ranged Condition

@Knighthonor.4061 said:Staff is the only Support weapon we have. No way.

He wasn't suggesting the removal of anything from staff, just adding condi to it...

@Justine.6351 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:Staff is the only Support weapon we have. No way.

If they added condi to it they likely would remove it's support aspects.

The only reasonable change staff could use is slightly reduced cast time on 2 or 4.

The weapon is otherwise perfectly fine as-is and is used in almost every viable PvP Rev build.

It already has a defined role as a CC/Utility weapon. I think another condi core weapon would be good, but I don't see that happening.

I don't see them ever adding another core weapon, hence my suggestion to tac a condi or two onto staff. Certainly not to make it a condi weapon that you camp over mace/axe, but something with a little more purpose than just a defense stick.

I guess maybe this is coming from playing mirage staff lately. Mesmer staff is mostly a utility weapon, but at least it has some condi on the auto and via 4 & 5. Seems like they could do something for Revenant staff.

@Opopanax.1803 said:I don't see them ever adding another core weapon, hence my suggestion to tac a condi or two onto staff. Certainly not to make it a condi weapon that you camp over mace/axe, but something with a little more purpose than just a defense stick.

I guess maybe this is coming from playing mirage staff lately. Mesmer staff is mostly a utility weapon, but at least it has some condi on the auto and via 4 & 5. Seems like they could do something for Revenant staff.

It already has a purpose, though. If you're not seeking to make staff into a condi weapon then why bother tack on condi damage? What you are suggesting changes the purpose of the staff in Revenant builds. Just because Mesmer staff does condi damage doesn't mean Revenant's should. They're two completely different professions with two completely different reasons for running staff. I think that's the inherent flaw here, wanting Revenant to play more like Mesmer. But Revenant staff is good at what it does for Revenant. If you're using staff for the purpose it was designed for Revenant then it is a fine weapon as is. It's only when you pick up the weapon and try to use it like another profession uses the weapon that it seems lacking.

If ArenaNet insists on rev only having one core ranged weapon, that should be the hybrid, IMO. Make CoR inflict some bleeding stacks - which could allow them to reduce the front-loaded damage, which could make hammer less of a pain to balance. Possibly make the current Hammer Bolt the end of a three-attack chain, so the hammer auto can have better synergy with Rampant Vex. You could probably justify putting some confusion on Drop the Hammer, too, but that might be pushing it.

@draxynnic.3719 , hammer already has decent damage and a KD, IMO it is really good, also shortbow is good for hybrid damage as well.

Let hammer be what it is, so Anet can focus better on next weapons, we are still missing the longbow, that can be the sniping hybrid damage on future.

@Dace.8173 said:

@"Opopanax.1803" said:I don't see them ever adding another core weapon, hence my suggestion to tac a condi or two onto staff. Certainly not to make it a condi weapon that you camp over mace/axe, but something with a little more purpose than just a defense stick.

I guess maybe this is coming from playing mirage staff lately. Mesmer staff is mostly a utility weapon, but at least it has some condi on the auto and via 4 & 5. Seems like they could do something for Revenant staff.

I don't want it to play more like mesmer. Nothing about the staff's abilities would change other than adding some condi on it. My point is that a utility weapon can have some condi on it without breaking it. Adding condi to it wouldn't change the fact that it is a melee, block, cleanse, interrupt weapon...which is nothing like mesmer staff other than "utility primary".

@draxynnic.3719 said:If ArenaNet insists on rev only having one core ranged weapon, that should be the hybrid, IMO. Make CoR inflict some bleeding stacks - which could allow them to reduce the front-loaded damage, which could make hammer less of a pain to balance. Possibly make the current Hammer Bolt the end of a three-attack chain, so the hammer auto can have better synergy with Rampant Vex. You could probably justify putting some confusion on Drop the Hammer, too, but that might be pushing it.

This is a good point which I hadn't thought of. Maybe my focus is off. I think you may be right with hammer being a better focus.

Rsther add chill and the possibility to get resistance.This would benefit more builds and could give condi rev an additional weaponset with abyssal chill and the corruption GM.

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:I don't see them ever adding another core weapon, hence my suggestion to tac a condi or two onto staff. Certainly not to make it a condi weapon that you camp over mace/axe, but something with a little more purpose than just a defense stick.

I guess maybe this is coming from playing mirage staff lately. Mesmer staff is mostly a utility weapon, but at least it has some condi on the auto and via 4 & 5. Seems like they could do something for Revenant staff.

Yeah, you do and yeah, it would. You are suggesting adding condi to a support utility weapon because that's how Mesmer's work. You said it came from you playing Mesmer lately. That makes it clear that you are trying to get the weapon closer to being how Mesmer plays with it as opposed to how Revenant plays with it. However, if they add condi to it they will change the weapon in other ways to balance the new condi damage. This is how balancing a weapon works. If a weapon is designed to fit a certain role then the weapon gets balanced for that specific role. We can go back and forth on whether or not they always hit that mark but that's the general idea. With staff, it already is doing a stand-up job in the role it was designed to do. Adding condi to it changes the role. It is no longer just a support weapon. Now it is a condi weapon that will become a staple in all condi builds. I say will because Revenant does actually lack additional condi weapons and as much as I love short bow a condi staff would be better than the short bow in many circumstances. So now that it's a condi weapon, even if it keeps some of its support aspects, the weapon will have to be rebalanced to account for its new role. In the end, the weapon would lose some of its current utility functions to make room for its new condi function. You simply cannot tack on condi damage and a weapon remains otherwise untouched. This typically only occurs if the weapon was underperforming in the role they designed it for. Which is not the case for staff.

The balance changes because now that it has condi damage it has more ways to increase it's overall damage output. An entirely new set of mechanics that didn't apply to it now apply. I can now use runes and sigils that increase condi damage to increase the staff's damage output. I can now use runes and sigils to increase condi duration, which in turn increases its overall damage output. I can tack on runes and sigils that increase its specific type of condi damage. Other mechanics might tack on more types of condi damage. If you added chill, for instance, you can now add torment. Now that chill has added torment it can now add poison, which can last longer. I have now used one innocent looking condition to add two additional types of condition. This is an entirely new set of interactions that a condi staff can now do. It is never the case that if you add condi damage the balance of a weapon doesn't change because it always changes. All of these new damage possibilities I've discussed can be justification for removing some of its support and utility functions.

It doesn't actually need condi damage. The staff isn't lacking. There are better weapons that are closer to a condi hybrid than staff. As I said, main hand sword already stacks condi damage. That is the best candidate for additional condi support since it is already close, if not actually, there.

They could make a trait affect a weapon skill similar to the necro’s scepter trait Devouring Darkness.

@Dace.8173

Adding chill to staff would just mean additional torment stacks, it wouldn't be the difference between Venom Enhancement proccing or not proccing. Staff autos have a high enough attack rate that it's likely that Rampant Vex is triggering often enough to proc Venom Enhancement reasonably reliably anyway. Putting a chill on, say, skill 2 would just be adding about one and a half more Torment stacks (possibly reaching three with max condition duration). Staff autoattacks with 100% crit chance and no duration increase beyond Yearning Empowerment, on the other hand, can already be expected to maintain close to three stacks (scaling that up and down for different crit chances and condition duration increases is left as an exercise for the reader).

It's the low attack rate which makes hammer terrible with conditions. Against a single target, staff and sword autoattacks can put out four strikes in less time than it takes for two Hammer Bolts, with sword able to do more if multiple rifts get generated from Rift Slash. This is part of what makes sword the least bad option for condition revenants after mace/axe.

@Aeolus.3615 said:@draxynnic.3719 , hammer already has decent damage and a KD, IMO it is really good, also shortbow is good for hybrid damage as well.

Let hammer be what it is, so Anet can focus better on next weapons, we are still missing the longbow, that can be the sniping hybrid damage on future.

Hammer could still be balanced as a hybrid weapon so that the damage output for pure power builds is about the same, but it would make it more useful for condition builds as well. It's also worth noting that the hammer's spiking potential through CoR has caused it to attract quite a few nerfs over time. Moving some of CoR's damage over to a DoT condition component would give more counterplay and make Malicious Reprisal spikes less dangerous, allowing that skill to be un-split. At the moment, one setup of hammer that made it overly powerful has caused it to be nerfed to the point of being largely unsatisfying outside that setup: hybridisation could allow hammer to be made broadly more useful without making it even stronger in those situations that caused it to be nerfed in the first place.

At the moment, hammer is problematic as the only ranged weapon available to core revenant because it works really badly with condition builds. It has no native conditions, a slow rate of attack so it doesn't trigger Rampant Vex often, and one chill on an 8s cooldown to trigger Abyssal Chill. More broadly speaking, core revenant has an issue in that it doesn't have a second condition set after mace/axe at all. Sword/X gets used as a 'least bad' substitute because it synergises well with Corruption traits, but that assumes an environment where going full melee is viable. Moving forward, this is probably going to be a problem for every revenant elite specialisation that might come down the pipeline in the future: any future revenant elite specialisation that doesn't bring a condi weapon is going to be hard to make viable for condi builds, even if the legend might otherwise support it.

Note that I'd also accept creating a new core weapon to fill the gap (part of the problem is that revenant weapons were designed on the assumption that revenants wouldn't need a second weaponset, since they were originally (poorly) designed with no weaponswapping in mind), but we don't know if that possibility is on the table. Hybridising the existing weapon is the next best choice.

@draxynnic.3719 said:@Dace.8173

Adding chill to staff would just mean additional torment stacks, it wouldn't be the difference between Venom Enhancement proccing or not proccing. Staff autos have a high enough attack rate that it's likely that Rampant Vex is triggering often enough to proc Venom Enhancement reasonably reliably anyway. Putting a chill on, say, skill 2 would just be adding about one and a half more Torment stacks (possibly reaching three with max condition duration). Staff autoattacks with 100% crit chance and no duration increase beyond Yearning Empowerment, on the other hand, can already be expected to maintain close to three stacks (scaling that up and down for different crit chances and condition duration increases is left as an exercise for the reader).

It's the low attack rate which makes hammer terrible with conditions. Against a single target, staff and sword autoattacks can put out four strikes in less time than it takes for two Hammer Bolts, with sword able to do more if multiple rifts get generated from Rift Slash. This is part of what makes sword the least bad option for condition revenants after mace/axe.

I'm pretty sure Venom Enhancement would still apply. I guess I'll check and see next time I use swords on my Condi build. However, even if poison didn't get applied it doesn't change the nature of my point, the addition of conditions will change the weapon. This change will require the weapon to be rebalanced to reflect the new interactions conditions open up for it. This moves the weapon from support/utility to a condition damage weapon. The idea that adding conditions doesn't change the weapon just isn't true. A rebalancing of a condi staff would likely remove some of its support and utility function. Just because it works for one profession doesn't mean it will work for another. The Mesmer staff and the Revenant staff were designed with separate ideas on what they were supposed to do.

This, of course, would be different if the weapon had always been intended to work that way. Mesmer staff was created to be the way it is and it was balanced accordingly. One cannot simply assume that because Mesmer staff has condi damage and other functions that you can do the same thing with Revenant staff. It doesn't work that way. Adding additional damage options will always have them rebalance the weapon to account for the possible new ways for it to do damage. These new damage options will remove it from a pure support and utility weapon. I've seen enough buffs and nerfs to know that with the addition of conditions the weapon would be rebalanced and such a rebalance would change its overall function. One could make an argument on whether or not this kind of change is needed but we cannot pretend that the weapon would remain the same afterward or that they wouldn't change its other aspects to account for more damage options and interactions.

Being how the staff is the only support/utility weapon that Revenant has it should be left alone so that it's other functions don't get reduced. Yeah, it sucks that Revenant lacks as many weapons as other professions with weapon swap but I honestly don't see them changing that.

Venom Enhancement has a 10s internal cooldown. So as long as there's something inflicting Torment already - such as Rampant Vex in the staff's 4-hits-every-2.2-seconds autoattack chain - then adding chill to one of the autoattack chains isn't going to result in more poison application. Just an extra 1-3 Torment stacks, and that's if the chill was on the lowest-recharge attack.

That's not insignificant, but it's not something to scream about either. It's not like Precision Strike landing three chills on a 5s cooldown, or Phase Smash with Abyssal Chill being almost the only way to get reliable condition application out of hammer due to the low autoattack rate. Honestly if chill was put on staff, the mere fact that staff had a snare at all would probably be more impactful than its interaction with traits, unless it was put on Surge of the Mists or something. (Kind of like how Icerazor's Ire was obviously made not-chill to prevent it from being a big Torment generator with Abyssal Chill.)

Now, I'm not saying that staff should be changed: it does its job, and its interaction with Rampant Vex is probably enough to make it work as a support option for condition-oriented builds as long as you don't regard it as your DPS set. But let's not exaggerate the impact that giving it chill would have.