Most Recent Edit: 10/3

The Trouble With Phantasms

I've played Mesmer for five years as my favorite profession. I love Mesmer. But if there's one huge problem Mesmer has, it's that PvE DPS seems forever out of our reach. There are a few reasons for this, but ultimately, I think phantasms are the culprit.

Here's the thing: given how they work now, I can't blame ArenaNet for having a difficult time balancing them. They're weird. They persist without a definite duration, continually dealing damage or applying some effect with no input from the Mesmer. They can be killed like a minion, though they aren't minions, because they disappear as soon as their target dies. And if you want to use one of your shatter skills, they all go away, which is a hefty price to pay in PvE. ArenaNet has tried to paper over this twice now with elite specializations--Chronomancer's Chronophantasma trait allows you to shatter once without losing your phantasms, while Mirage has two skills that allow you to retarget your illusions--but it's never quite enough.

I have two suggestions for reworking phantasms that I'd like to discuss. The first keeps the concept of phantasms around as they are now, but adds more dynamic play and attempts to open up the possibility of sustained shatter DPS in PvE. The second idea is significantly more drastic and less realistic, in that it entirely changes what a phantasm is. (EDIT 10/3) At this point, my preferred solution is the first one, but I'm keeping the second one around because it's been fun to discuss.

Suggested Change: Dynamic Phantasms and Faster Shatters

Give each phantasm an "opening attack" that is stronger than its normal attack. It only performs that opening attack once, right when it's summoned, before settling into its normal pattern. Because you summon a new copy of the phantasm when you use a phantasm-summoning skill again, it'd perform that opening attack again, so now you have an incentive to work that into your rotation. Some examples could be:

• Phantasmal Swordsman: Uses Blurred Frenzy as its first attack. Alternatively, uses an attack similar to Revenant sword's Unrelenting Assault, which would look really awesome but is probably less feasible.
• Phantasmal Berserker: First attack immobilizes instead of crippling and deals increased damage.
• Phantasmal Warden: First attack also fires seeking axe projectiles similar to Mirage's Mirrored Axes trait.
• Phantasmal Duelist: First attack pierces enemies and always inflicts bleeding.
• Phantasmal Mage: Breathes a cone of fire as its first attack, inflicting extra burning. This mimics the Elementalist dagger skill Drake's Breath.
• Phantasmal Warlock: Fires multiple projectiles with its first attack.

Now let's combine that with some trait changes. First, I want to note that I think these three trait change ideas are for PvE only. Frankly, Mesmer is not in need of a PvP buff, and all of these would constitute a buff. Here are my ideas:

• [illusion] Master of Fragmentation: Add the following feature: Shattering phantasms reduces the cooldown of phantasm-summoning skills by X seconds per phantasm. I'll leave the exact number of seconds up to someone more expert than me. The idea here is that shattering phantasms should make it easier to resummon phantasms afterwards. This shouldn't replace Chronophantasma--it's more like its sustainability-oriented cousin. I suspect it'll work well with Chronophantasma in a shatter-oriented Chronomancer build, though. (This could also go on the minor trait Illusionist's Celerity, but it seems good enough to be part of a Grandmaster trait and compete with Phantasmal Force.) In short, I'm asking for the old Persistence of Memory back, but wrapped into another shatter-focused trait.
• [Domination] Mental Anguish: Add the following feature: Shattering phantasms increases this damage bonus by X%. Again, I'm not going to suggest specific numbers here. Once again, this is intended to make it more attractive to shatter phantasms sometimes, especially when doing so can reduce the cooldown enough that you can immediately replace a couple of them and will make that shatter more attractive.
• [Mirage] Infinite Horizon: Add the following feature: Clones deal increased damage and have increased condition duration with ambush attacks. Let's make it worth taking this over Dune Cloak in PvE. If you have opportunities to shatter more often, then let's also make it helpful to have clones out to help you with damage. After all, you're paying endurance for those ambush attacks in a lot of cases--they'd better be worth it.

Finally, let's say this "opening attack" idea gets implemented. How do you all think it should interact with Chronophantasma? Should phantasms perform their opening attack again when Chronophantasma resummons them? On the one hand, I bet it'd open up the possibility of a shatter-focused Chronomancer DPS build. On the other hand, I could see it kind of getting out of hand depending on how strong the opening is. I'd say hell yes, let's let Chronomancer go absolutely crazy with shatters while Mirage is the clone and phantasm spec, but I do think the balance could get pretty fragile there.

Secondary Suggestion: And Now for Something Completely Different

What if we revisited what a phantasm even is? Here's my suggestion:

Treat phantasms like normal attacks. In this scenario, phantasms aren't summons anymore. They aren't illusions. They're just an attack with an animation that looks like a pink, illusionary version of the caster doing something. They appear, perform an attack or other action, and immediately disappear. Their effects and cooldowns are adjusted to account for the fact that they're not persistent--in other words, they could be balanced like any other skill. I want to be very, very clear here, since I think people might misunderstand me: along with these changes, phantasm-summoning skills' effects, damage, and cooldowns would need to change significantly. I'm not suggesting that phantasms should stay exactly how they are and just not last a long time--that'd be an unambiguous step down and a big nerf at that. I'm suggesting a from-the-ground-up rework that would also include big adjustments to skill cooldowns and phantasm effects.

In this case, too, phantasms don't have to be objects in the game world. They don't need pathing or hit boxes. They're just attack animations that happen to look like the Mesmer.

Below, I have some possible examples. In coming up with these, I tried to stick to the following principles:

1. Phantasms stay visible for at least a couple of seconds. This helps maintain the feeling of a phantasm being a tangible illusion that performs an action, rather than, say, a projectile that just happens to be shaped like the caster.
2. Phantasm attacks should happen over a period of time. This goes with the above--if it's going to stay visible for a couple seconds, it might as well be doing something. But it's also a possible balance consideration. I've posted elsewhere about this, but the best sources of physical damage for sustained DPS tend to be attacks that mimic condition damage by continuing to deal damage after you cast them. Examples include the Elementalist's Lava Font and Meteor Shower, or Dragonhunter's Procession of Blades trap. Because my goal here is to help Mesmer have better sustained DPS, I think it's a good idea for phantasms to generally work like those sorts of attacks.
3. Phantasms should be recognizable from their current versions. Some of them are going to be bigger changes than others to help stick to the above principles, but in general I want to keep their basic functions the same.

Given that, here are my example ideas:

• Phantasmal Swordsman: Casts a version of Blurred Frenzy before disappearing. Functionally, I think this would be really similar to skills like the Elementalist's Lava Font: a stationary source of cleave damage that pulses for a few seconds before going away.
• Phantasmal Berserker: Performs its whirling attack twice in quick succession--a quick back-and-forth--then disappears. A useful AoE ranged attack.
• Phantasmal Duelist: Uses Unload once or twice, whatever works for the balance and timing.
• Phantasmal Mage: Appears in a burst of fire like when the Mesmer uses The Prestige, then shoots a cone of flame, applying burning.
• Phantasmal Warden: Ground-targeted spinning attack that reflects projectiles for a few seconds. Another stationary, pulsing cleave, this time with projectile reflection like the Ranger skill it mimics. Ground targeting helps preserve its usefulness given that it now has a short duration.
• Phantasmal Warlock: Fires multiple bouncing projectiles that deal extra damage for each unique condition the target has.
• Phantasmal Avenger: As it is now, this phantasm exists to apply alacrity. That makes it more difficult to redesign in this model than the other weapon phantasms, which only really need to deal damage. I think the best option here might be for it to work like Renegade's spirit summons: a phantasm that causes a large AoE summoned by the shield block, with a longer duration than the other phantasms. It can deal some damage and apply slow to enemies in its radius and periodically apply alacrity before disappearing. This is also the pattern I think utility skill phantasms should follow, though those can be ground-targeted.

Here are the benefits I see to this approach:

• It would allow phantasms to be balanced like any other attack skill, without needing to consider both their persistence and their potential fragility.
• No more choosing between phantasms and shatters. If phantasms no longer count as illusions, you can now safely generate and shatter illusions to your heart's content.
• It allows for more reliable Mesmer DPS. Again, because these phantasms no longer last an indefinite amount of time and can no longer be killed, you don't have to worry about being unable to retarget them, or DPS loss when a target moves out of their range, or needing to resummon them when they're killed by AoEs. You can just work them into your rotation as a normal attack.

Here are the downsides, because I acknowledge there definitely are some:

• This removes some of Mesmer's uniqueness. Like them or hate them, phantasms are a very unique mechanic. Treating them like any other attack, just with a phantasmal attack animation, would remove a lot of that uniqueness. I obviously think it's worth it, or I wouldn't be suggesting this, but I know some might find this to be unacceptable.
• This would entail a massive amount of work. Should anything like this ever happen--and, let's be realistic, such a huge redesign is unlikely no matter how many words I post about it--it wouldn't be soon. It might even come with an expansion, rather than a patch.

What do you all think? Would this be a helpful rework? Does this approach sound fun to you? Is there another approach you think might work better?

I don't have time to read this just yet, but I know the way I would like phantasms to work would be to still summon something, but it doesn't take up an illusion slot, and it essentially works in a similar manor to renegade summons, they attack/buff/whatever other roll they do and then die/shatter/turn into a clone etc.

@Durzlla.6295 said:I don't have time to read this just yet, but I know the way I would like phantasms to work would be to still summon something, but it doesn't take up an illusion slot, and it essentially works in a similar manor to renegade summons, they attack/buff/whatever other roll they do and then die/shatter/turn into a clone etc.

I think that's how utility phantasms should work for sure, though my idea for weapon phantasms just treats them like normal attacks that use a phantasm as their animation. I think that'd be easier to manage for weapon skills, while the Renegade style is great for utilities.

@Agent Noun.7350 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:I don't have time to read this just yet, but I know the way I would like phantasms to work would be to still summon something, but it doesn't take up an illusion slot, and it essentially works in a similar manor to renegade summons, they attack/buff/whatever other roll they do and then die/shatter/turn into a clone etc.

That definitely sounds cool, I'll definitely be reading your post as soon as I get the time to read such a long post!

They should be, and always should've been, minions: free to follow you and change targets, and with the ability to give them simple commands (attack this target, don't attack). But here we are, five years later, and they can't even be bothered to give us new F-key mechanics on what may be the last elite spec we get.

@Arshay Duskbrow.1306 said:They should be, and always should've been, minions: free to follow you and change targets, and with the ability to give them simple commands (attack this target, don't attack). But here we are, five years later, and they can't even be bothered to give us new F-key mechanics on what may be the last elite spec we get.

What's funny is that this is exactly how kasmears phantasms work

Only read a bit, but I too love the idea of Phantasmal attacks based on what weapon you have wielded. Sorry but the whole illusions as minions etc... is not working and it's not really deceptive as they thought it would be. So that entirely needs to be reworked and over the years they could've but I have a feeling (as to how lazy they are) that they won't even bother touching the class to change it altogether so.

I feel that the only good "Illusion' - like skill is the one the white mantle mesmer NPCs use where you have to defeat their clone in order to reveal the real mesmer. THAT's what we should've gotten as an Elite or a utility. I just hate how all these mesmer NPCs and story characters are getting such amazing mesmer skills oppose to what we are given...

So, just read it, the phantasm would still be there and attacking for one or two attacks etc, but would be unable to be killed?

I really like the idea, except for phantasmal avenger, that skill wouldn't be able to be ground target imo because it's tied to the block, I'd say it should just spawn the phantasm and it pulses out an area of slow/alacrity and damage.

That being said we'd have so many traits that need to be changed, and more importantly we'd have to have more access to clones so shatters aren't nerfed by the lack of phantasm destruction, my favorite way would be for after phantasms do their thing they turn into clones.

I want to add a thematic argument for phantasms-as-attacks.

Think of a Mesmer: a master of illusion. Twister of time and space. Chaos mage. None of those things, to me, call out for minions. Even phantasms as they are now, these persistent magical constructs, feel wrong to me. They're not illusionary, not hazy enough to be a figment of the imagination or a twist of light. They're fragile magic robots, executing a program on repeat. That's not very Mesmer, y'know?

But let me paint you a picture of transient phantasms:

You're fighting a Mesmer. You're seeing double, triple, maybe even quadruple, but some of them don't really hurt. Their blades pass right through you. They cause momentary confusion, but no real pain. The real threat is the real Mesmer, the one with more complex movements, the one whose real blade draws very real blood.

You swing your weapon and dispel an illusion, and another, and soon enough you can close in on the real Mesmer. But then, out of the blur of battle, another image coalesces, a hazier Mesmer, a thing of light and glass. And it appears right beside you, fading out of nothing, and strikes you with its blade, and it feels all too real. It hurts. It draws blood. You feel your flesh tear.

And then the thing is gone, just as quickly as it appeared. Smoke and mirrors. But that wound in your side, your blood pooling on the ground--those are all too real.

That's what I see when I think of phantasms as one-off attacks, things that you conjure for just a moment to wound and confuse and disappear right back into nothing. Not a magical construct that sticks to its target, repeating the same program over and over again like a pink robot. Not an intangible image dangerous more as a distraction or as another illusion to shatter. But a phantasmal killer, born from nothing, returning to nothing, leaving nothing behind except a Mesmer waiting to conjure another one when the time is right.

Beyond purely gameplay considerations, which I focused on in the original post, I think this way of handling phantasms is much more consistent with the Mesmer's image and theme.

@Durzlla.6295 said:So, just read it, the phantasm would still be there and attacking for one or two attacks etc, but would be unable to be killed?

Exactly. They're not even really there as an object in the game world like they are now--they're just an attack animation. It'd be like if an Elementalist's Lava Font looked like the Elementalist instead of fiery earth: the phantasm serves as an attack animation, not as a summon.

@Durzlla.6295 said:I really like the idea, except for phantasmal avenger, that skill wouldn't be able to be ground target imo because it's tied to the block, I'd say it should just spawn the phantasm and it pulses out an area of slow/alacrity and damage.

That's a good idea. I forgot about the block aspect.

@Durzlla.6295 said:That being said we'd have so many traits that need to be changed, and more importantly we'd have to have more access to clones so shatters aren't nerfed by the lack of phantasm destruction, my favorite way would be for after phantasms do their thing they turn into clones.

Yeah, this would be an absolutely massive change to Mesmer, which is why I think, if anything like it happens at all, it's a long-term thing. I like the idea of a clone appearing in the phantasm's place after the attack so that those skills still serve to create an illusion, too.

I just want a build in which Clones do enough consistent damage that you can just use clones and not have to worry about Phantasms.

There have been so many suggestions related to changing phantasms lately.I have a few thoughts as well:1) make phantasm a permanent illusion that follows you and attacks your target. You'd be able to command it to use special attacks with already existing phantasm skills. Your enemy would be able to disable it temporarily by dealing enough damage to it.2) make phantasms a one time summon that appears, does its thing and disappears.3) leave phantasms as target-bound illusions, but make it so they don't count to your illusion limit so you could use shatters freely. You'd be able to maintain 1-2 phantasms per target and they would die when their targets die.

Personally, I like the 1st idea the most, but really any of them (and any other mentioned in this thread) would make phantasms feel better.

@bart.3687 said:2) make phantasms a one time summon that appears, does its thing and disappears.

This is the one I prefer (obviously), and I think it's mostly a thematic thing. Nothing about Mesmer makes me feel like minions are appropriate for it, y'know?

But from a more gameplay-oriented perspective, I worry that switching phantasms from target-bound illusions to Necromancer-style illusions or Ranger-style pets would just trade one set of massive issues for another. Minions have tons of problems, and especially when phantasms are such a core part of Mesmer, I wouldn't want them tied up in minion AI. I like the idea of phantasms being shadowy, temporary things that show up, do a thing, and go away much better, both from a thematic standpoint and because they'd be much more reliable and easy to balance for gameplay.

Your solution sounds very interesting. I'm not too fond of pet classes in general -- Mesmer, as a compromise of sorts, has been something of a new venture for me. I wouldn't like it to turn into a "true" pet class any more than I'd prefer for it to stay as is. It then boils down to another (albeit promising) compromise. Clones would also receive an upgrade to their role, I think, as producing (and shattering) them should become more desirable. It would be even better if they managed to be actually deceptive, but that's a different problem for a different topic.

However, and I hate to ask, but can we realistically expect even a light core rework at this point? This would hardly adhere to a mindset of "moving forward". What are long-time players' experiences?

@ovinnik.9216 said:However, and I hate to ask, but can we realistically expect even a light core rework at this point? This would hardly adhere to a mindset of "moving forward". What are long-time players' experiences?

I'd say probably not, unfortunately. I wanted to suggest it in case something comes of it at some point, but a rework of this magnitude definitely isn't realistic, at least not soon. GW2 isn't like WoW, where classes are frequently reworked on a fundamental level from expansion to expansion. That has its upsides and its downsides, of course, but because GW2's professions tend not to get massive reworks, mechanics that don't work just sort of stick around.

That said, I think something really does need to be done with phantasms. I might be misreading things, but the way each elite spec has been designed so far seems like trying very hard to work around the limitation of how phantasms work, with occasional band-aids to help smooth over their very rough edges. I think it'd be a much better idea to, at some point, just go back to the drawing board with them, especially given how difficult they make it to give Mesmer an actual DPS spec.

@Agent Noun.7350 said:

@bart.3687 said:

2)

make phantasms a one time summon that appears, does its thing and disappears.

Well, ideas 1) and 2) are basically almost the same tho, they just differ in a way of implementation. 1) means you'd have a perma illusion that does almost nothing (it may deal minor damage from time to time, idk) unless you command it to use certain phantasm skill. 2) would just make it so you press a button, a phantasm appears, attacks the target and disappears (similar to new Spirit Weaps).I dunno, I find 2) rather boring, but it's still better than current phants. My fave is 1) because I just love the idea of having permanent illusionary twin (mostly aesthetically).I'm well aware that every idea might have a flaw or two, but seriously, I doubt that any of the ideas mentioned by the community can beat current phantasms' implementation in terms of clunkiness and balance problems.

Mesmer might actually get a major update since they're trying to help Mesmer sustain, but I'm hesisitsnt to say they'd do a change of this magnitude.

I find it more realistic for them to make it a single summon or something of that sort.

@Durzlla.6295 said:Mesmer might actually get a major update since they're trying to help Mesmer sustain,

Source?

@Durzlla.6295 said:Mesmer might actually get a major update since they're trying to help Mesmer sustain, but I'm hesisitsnt to say they'd do a change of this magnitude.

I find it more realistic for them to make it a single summon or something of that sort.

Not likely, it’d undo a bunch of trait and skill reworks that have been done recently.

I find it funny how people are only just cottoning on to phantasms don’t work as if this is some new revelation brought on by mirage. Phantasms have been a failed mechanic for 4 years now and needed removing with the trait rework.

@apharma.3741 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:Mesmer might actually get a major update since they're trying to help Mesmer sustain, but I'm hesisitsnt to say they'd do a change of this magnitude.

I find it more realistic for them to make it a single summon or something of that sort.

You are right, alot of people before PoF just seem to care about getting on golem dps benchmarks rather then the actual mechanics of the class, I'm guilty of this as well where I used 'dps build' as short hand for both higher numbers and better mechanics. So I made a big mistake and presumed the next elite spec would deal with this some how, instead of just giving us a worse dodge. The complete fuck up that is mirage has probably resulted in a lot of people realizing/remembering that Anet has no idea what they are doing with Mesmer and won't treat it like they do other classes.

Now that we have semi decent numbers against golems, that are still at the bottom of the actual dps builds of classes, its probably resulted in a lot of people playing and realizing how shit the mechanics are for PvE.

@Levetty.1279 said:Now that we have semi decent numbers against golems, that are still at the bottom of the actual dps builds of classes, its probably resulted in a lot of people playing and realizing how kitten the mechanics are for PvE.

Except people are using anecdotal evidence of how fun it is in open world as a reason for why it doesn't need to get changed.

I enjoy it as a breath of fresh air, but it's a terrible uncohesive spec. I'm literally just running it for Axe mainhand and then everything else is trying to accommodate that (Jaunt because you need condi cleanse, IA as a gap close since it's better than MA in almost every aspect, Crystal Sand for extra dodge/damage). The actual traits I pick in Mirage don't mean anything because they all add so little (even though traited Axe and Dune Cloak add DPS, it doesn't make a functional difference whether I have it or not). There is no impact in the traits. The one "impactful" choice you can choose is IH (trash damage) vs Elusive Mind (fantastic trait, mind you) vs Dune Cloak (condi duration wooo?).

The irony is there's just enough glue holding the spec in a spot where it's hard to fix anything without completely revamping all of it (minus traits).

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:Mesmer might actually get a major update since they're trying to help Mesmer sustain,

That was literally their reasoning for giving us attacks on our phantasm skills lol

"Also in this update, we are implementing initial attacks on several phantasm skills, allowing the mesmer to deliver a primary attack in addition to the summon in order to provide a bit more constant pressure on your targets."

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-February-22-2017/first#post6516356

@Durzlla.6295 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:Mesmer might actually get a major update since they're trying to help Mesmer sustain,

Do you honestly believe if that was their actual goal they would have made the attacks so shit?

I really love your ideas! I always wanted phantasms to work like that!

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:Mesmer might actually get a major update since they're trying to help Mesmer sustain,

Look Levetty, i'm not saying anet did it properly, i'm only saying what they said their goal was and am assuming they're not lying to our monitors.