[Balance discussion] Moa Stance needs some changes

Currently this stance in particular https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moa_Stance is being "abused" freely by 8 rangers out of 10 using SB, it's one of those skills I would consider a noob tool which allows players to outlive situations where they should be clearly dead.

The problem is I see this stance being used off CD and not really with any strategic plan in mind as it is with we heal as one + NM , I am sure this thread will attract the usual rage mode but...this is my personal stance, I just hate this kind of crutch skill/utility/trait and I will always advocate for their removal/change no matter the class.

I am not really asking for any hard nerf, for instance I believe a longer CD is in place , something like 40-45s CD or I'd say 40s Cd and base duration decreased from 10s to 6s like all other stances, nothing really on the same levels of mirage condi or scourge condi spam but something still really annoying to deal with, not really fun or challenging to face because the opponent keeps using this stance off CD with no real tactic in mind other than keep perma protection/regen up

I dont think the CD needs to reach Elite skill levels.However, maybe shaving its uptime from 10s to somewhere between 6~8s while keeping its current 25s CD (or raising it to 30 if its absolutely necessary) would be enough.Or just slightly nerfing Leader of the Pack's duration boost from 150% personal to 100% and giving the other 50% to allied players so its 100% across the board. It would make Stance Share a bit better for WvW at least.At the same time, Griffon Stance/Vulture Stance could probably use some improvements to make them considerable options to slot in if they look at stance changes.

Moa stance is not a crutch. Using it off cd is bad. It's possible to keep perma prot/regen up without it.

It's not that strong on its own either. It needs to be used in conjunction with other things in order to be viable. So no, I disagree that the cooldown needs to be increased and the duration decreased.

If it gets nerfed, it will never be used and ranger will be in a worse spot in the meta.

I think the 66% boon duration increase is a bit over the top and makes it easy to reach 100% boon duration with little sacrifice. I hardly think its a noob crutch though. It fits perfectly in the boon heavy meta and so easily countered.

Also, your argument of it being not fun or challenging to fight against because its continously used off cool down can be applied to just about anything. Might not be fun for you, but you’re not the one playing that character. Next time, should whisper the one you’re fighting and ask them if it’s fun for them.Edit: spelling

@shadowpass.4236 said:Moa stance is not a crutch. Using it off cd is bad. It's possible to keep perma prot/regen up without it.

It's not that strong on its own either. It needs to be used in conjunction with other things in order to be viable. So no, I disagree that the cooldown needs to be increased and the duration decreased.

If it gets nerfed, it will never be used and ranger will be in a worse spot in the meta.

There is already fresh reinforcement and WHAO and that at least require some timing over the simply usage of the stance off CD that allows people to reach an unhealthy 100% boon duration with little to no effort and all I was suggesting is to reduce the base duration to a more sane level

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Moa stance is not a crutch. Using it off cd is bad. It's possible to keep perma prot/regen up without it.

It's not that strong on its own either. It needs to be used in conjunction with other things in order to be viable. So no, I disagree that the cooldown needs to be increased and the duration decreased.

If it gets nerfed, it will never be used and ranger will be in a worse spot in the meta.

What's the point of having an extra 66% boon duration if you aren't applying boons on yourself?

Like I said, it's only good when used in conjunction with other things. Using it off cooldown amounts to nothing.

Since you're claiming it's a crutch, here's a test for you. Get on ranger, do some 1v1s and use it off cooldown. If Moa Stance is as strong as you say it is, it should get you out of many sticky situations and single-handedly win you fights.

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Moa stance is not a crutch. Using it off cd is bad. It's possible to keep perma prot/regen up without it.

It's not that strong on its own either. It needs to be used in conjunction with other things in order to be viable. So no, I disagree that the cooldown needs to be increased and the duration decreased.

If it gets nerfed, it will never be used and ranger will be in a worse spot in the meta.

You know the duration is a lot less then the CD so using it off CD will be a waste. You need to line it up with when you are actually generating boons.

Personally i think it does way to many things. It gives prot regen, fury and swiftness.I think the regen and fury should be put elsewhere.CD in line with all other stances and duration too.Fury on the elite. Regen on heal.That would bring it in line with the rest.

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Moa stance is not a crutch. Using it off cd is bad. It's possible to keep perma prot/regen up without it.

It's not that strong on its own either. It needs to be used in conjunction with other things in order to be viable. So no, I disagree that the cooldown needs to be increased and the duration decreased.

If it gets nerfed, it will never be used and ranger will be in a worse spot in the meta.

The point is to hit the minor evil before the build becomes too noticeable and Anet will then do what Anet does best : nerf everything around the issue..then nerf the issue without scaling back the previous unjustified nerfs.

@InsaneQR.7412 said:Personally i think it does way to many things. It gives prot regen, fury and swiftness.I think the regen and fury should be put elsewhere.CD in line with all other stances and duration too.Fury on the elite. Regen on heal.That would bring it in line with the rest.

Indeed

eh why not move protection to dolyak stance if you feel protection is a problem?

@InsaneQR.7412 said:Personally i think it does way to many things. It gives prot regen, fury and swiftness.I think the regen and fury should be put elsewhere.CD in line with all other stances and duration too.Fury on the elite. Regen on heal.That would bring it in line with the rest.

We get prot on dodge and the other 3 boons on our shout heal.

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Moa stance is not a crutch. Using it off cd is bad. It's possible to keep perma prot/regen up without it.

It's not that strong on its own either. It needs to be used in conjunction with other things in order to be viable. So no, I disagree that the cooldown needs to be increased and the duration decreased.

If it gets nerfed, it will never be used and ranger will be in a worse spot in the meta.

If it's a minor evil, why would you completely delete it from the meta?

The issue, if there even is one, isn't Moa Stance. Ranger isn't meta anyways, so nerfing any aspect of it will just put it further down the list of viable classes in competitive play.

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Moa stance is not a crutch. Using it off cd is bad. It's possible to keep perma prot/regen up without it.

It's not that strong on its own either. It needs to be used in conjunction with other things in order to be viable. So no, I disagree that the cooldown needs to be increased and the duration decreased.

If it gets nerfed, it will never be used and ranger will be in a worse spot in the meta.

There are always issues...just as people defending the issue, simply made a suggestion but you guys have it your way...I am afraid this won't be a wise choice on the long run

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:Personally i think it does way to many things. It gives prot regen, fury and swiftness.I think the regen and fury should be put elsewhere.CD in line with all other stances and duration too.Fury on the elite. Regen on heal.That would bring it in line with the rest.

No we dont get them automatically. Your pet needs to have these to get them. And you have to burn a heal skill for it with an interuptable cast time and crucial function.With stance share you even get every boon doubled with WhaO if you want to because your pet gets the boons from share.Distributing the boons more on other stances isn't that bad of an idea IMO it makes them more attractive and Moa stance has already great utility by prolonging boons. Many boon builds would still take. Ranger has already high amounts of fury and regen on bear stance would improve the heal.Persoanlly i think all stances at 8s duration and 30s CD would be good. Eith GM trait you would have 50% uptime of the utility stances. Buffing the weaker ones and tuning down moa is a price i gladly would pay.

Id love to see them do something with Vulture and Griffon stance. Anyone actually use those?

@InsaneQR.7412 said:Personally i think it does way to many things. It gives prot regen, fury and swiftness.I think the regen and fury should be put elsewhere.CD in line with all other stances and duration too.Fury on the elite. Regen on heal.That would bring it in line with the rest.Why do ppl so concerned about 5sec protection and claiming that ranger supposed die and not survive??? Idk...It just reduces 33% damage for 5 secs...On a 25sec cooldownLot of other classes has access to aegis, too many blocks and invulnerabilities... And these guys blaming on mere 5 secs protection...If you Nerf moa stance might as well remove it altogether... Coz, our griphon and vulture stances are pretty much never used and only other useful stance is dolyak... without beast stances, you can pretty much delete soulbeast specialization...

@Infusion.7149 said:eh why not move protection to dolyak stance if you feel protection is a problem?

Nicely said... Grant protection on dolyak along with stab and retal... We'll put another utility slot to good use...But what about fury and boon duration increase ??? I like to have more fury ;) to increase crit chance

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Moa stance is not a crutch. Using it off cd is bad. It's possible to keep perma prot/regen up without it.

It's not that strong on its own either. It needs to be used in conjunction with other things in order to be viable. So no, I disagree that the cooldown needs to be increased and the duration decreased.

If it gets nerfed, it will never be used and ranger will be in a worse spot in the meta.

The customability of ranger to suit current pvp climate is the highest among all professions, really when I lose on ranger is because I get outplayed....you can never be outclassed on ranger

@Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

@"InsaneQR.7412" said:Personally i think it does way to many things. It gives prot regen, fury and swiftness.I think the regen and fury should be put elsewhere.CD in line with all other stances and duration too.Fury on the elite. Regen on heal.That would bring it in line with the rest.Why do ppl so concerned about 5sec protection and claiming that ranger supposed die and not survive??? Idk...It just reduces 33% damage for 5 secs...On a 25sec cooldownLot of other classes has access to aegis, too many blocks and invulnerabilities... And these guys blaming on mere 5 secs protection...If you Nerf moa stance might as well remove it altogether... Coz, our griphon and vulture stances are pretty much never used and only other useful stance is dolyak... without beast stances, you can pretty much delete soulbeast specialization...

Moa stance isn't a "mere 5 seconds of protection" though nor does protection "just reduce 33% damage" on ranger. That's 1295 healing from rugged growth and 33% reduction to power and condition damage taken if traited properly and that is a lot. Every time a WS SB dodges, moa stance is a 66% increase to how much healing they would receive with rugged growth. For comparison, it would require about 700 healing power to increase healing on dodge by that much. A big factor here is of course time as healing power acts faster but longer duration means more power/condi damage mitigation by protection too. 66% boon duration over 15 seconds on a 25 second CD is also really strong in general because boons are strong in this game.

There are plenty of SB players that don't use moa stance all the time so nerfing moa stance wouldn't "delete SB". So moa stance is strong but this also means it's not mandatory. So I don't think it inherently needs a nerf. If Anet did decide to nerf it, the duration or intensity of the boon duration bonus should decrease.

Try less hyperbole next time.

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:Personally i think it does way to many things. It gives prot regen, fury and swiftness.I think the regen and fury should be put elsewhere.CD in line with all other stances and duration too.Fury on the elite. Regen on heal.That would bring it in line with the rest.

1. No we dont get them automatically. Your pet needs to have these to get them. And you have to burn a heal skill for it with an interuptable cast time and crucial function.With stance share you even get every boon doubled with WhaO if you want to because your pet gets the boons from share.
2. Distributing the boons more on other stances isn't that bad of an idea IMO it makes them more attractive and Moa stance has already great utility by prolonging boons. Many boon builds would still take. Ranger has already high amounts of fury and regen on bear stance would improve the heal.
3. Persoanlly i think all stances at 8s duration and 30s CD would be good. Eith GM trait you would have 50% uptime of the utility stances. Buffing the weaker ones and tuning down moa is a price i gladly would pay.

1. Yes, we do get them automatically. No, our pet doesn't need to have them. Yes, but in a fight you use your healing skill often and it very rarely gets interrupted if you use it properly/the enemy isn't specifically looking for it with a cc ready.

   • Resounding Timbre
   • Wilderness Knowledge
   • Soften the Fall

2. Buffing Dolyak Stance is not a good idea. The only thing that would help Bear Stance is a cooldown reduction to 20 seconds, a base heal of 6.5k while dropping the heal per condition removed to 308.

3. Dolyak Stance, Moa Stance and One Wolf Pack are fine and should not be touched. The other stances need buffs.

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Moa stance is not a crutch. Using it off cd is bad. It's possible to keep perma prot/regen up without it.

It's not that strong on its own either. It needs to be used in conjunction with other things in order to be viable. So no, I disagree that the cooldown needs to be increased and the duration decreased.

If it gets nerfed, it will never be used and ranger will be in a worse spot in the meta.

1. There are always issues...just as people defending the issue, simply made a suggestion but you guys have it your way...I am afraid this won't be a wise choice on the long run
2. The customability of ranger to suit current pvp climate is the highest among all professions, really when I lose on ranger is because I get outplayed....
   you can never be outclassed on ranger

1. There are also people who complain about non-issues and try to get them nerfed. Moa Stance is not a problem. The stance offers nothing unique except for the boon duration. Even then, it has to be used in conjunction with other skills in order to be effective.

2. So why would you want to lower the "customizability" of ranger if it isn't even a meta pick? You're literally just going to hurt the class.

3. Ranger has a very clear weakness that makes it significantly less appealing in competitive play. It loses outnumbered fights much, much easier in comparison to other side noders. Ranger shines in 1v1s, however, against a coordinated team, ranger gets shut down very hard. However, even in 1v1s against an opponent of equal skill, you still need to know how to play properly to win. Ranger =/= auto win by any stretch of the imagination.

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:Personally i think it does way to many things. It gives prot regen, fury and swiftness.I think the regen and fury should be put elsewhere.CD in line with all other stances and duration too.Fury on the elite. Regen on heal.That would bring it in line with the rest.

1. No we dont get them automatically. Your pet needs to have these to get them. And you have to burn a heal skill for it with an interuptable cast time and crucial function.With stance share you even get every boon doubled with WhaO if you want to because your pet gets the boons from share.
2. Distributing the boons more on other stances isn't that bad of an idea IMO it makes them more attractive and Moa stance has already great utility by prolonging boons. Many boon builds would still take. Ranger has already high amounts of fury and regen on bear stance would improve the heal.
3. Persoanlly i think all stances at 8s duration and 30s CD would be good. Eith GM trait you would have 50% uptime of the utility stances. Buffing the weaker ones and tuning down moa is a price i gladly would pay.

1. Yes, we do get them automatically. No, our pet doesn't need to have them. Yes, but in a fight you use your healing skill often and it very rarely gets interrupted if you use it properly/the enemy isn't specifically looking for it with a cc ready.
   • Resounding Timbre
   • Wilderness Knowledge
   • Soften the Fall

2. Buffing Dolyak Stance is not a good idea. The only thing that would help Bear Stance is a cooldown reduction to 20 seconds, a base heal of 6.5k while dropping the heal per condition removed to 308.

3. Dolyak Stance, Moa Stance and One Wolf Pack are fine and should not be touched. The other stances need buffs.

As you point out you need a lot of setup for this. Moa stance is a one button press.I think distrivuting its effects is more beneficial. I agree that OwP does not need buffs. As a support tool it would provide something nore though.For bear stance it would not shoot it out of the water but as a buff it would be atleast something.The duration buff for dolayk stance could be implemented for PvE although not PvP/WvW.Abothwr reason to make them all one line CD is just for simplicity to keep easier track of them.

I personally don't use Moa Stance because I love the Survival skills too much to give them up. However, with it traited the duration does seem a bit excessive given its cooldown. Perhaps they could change Leader of the Pack to no longer increase stance duration, but instead to share the full duration with allies and have the CD reduced by 20%. Some of the skills would maybe need to be adjusted because of this, but at least then stance sharing would be a little better.

I genuinely didn't even know Moa Stance was considered strong. I thought people were just using it to abuse plasma rng from Siamoth, and the tradeoff was running a crappy pet and sacrificing a utility slot to do so and be Scourge corruption fodder.

But I mean, whatever, the whole state of the game is at it's absolute worst right now. It plays more like a twitch shooter than the combat that got me into GW1, and 2 when it came along.

There's no reason to even play PvP leagues anymore other than masochism though, and the balance has been so bad and so stale for so long I don't remember the last time I enjoyed logging in.

ANet doesn't have anything left to lose at this point, so I'm agreeable to anything. Nerf it all, maybe roll back an expansion or 2, whatever people want and whatever it takes. Just something that isn't what the game currently is, which is much worse than awful that I don't feel like thesaurus'ing to try to describe.