Nerfing core mesmer

"Confounding Suggestions: This trait no longer converts dazes into stuns. It now increases daze duration by 50% and stun duration by 25%. It is no longer split between game modes."

I'm confused why a weak build like core power mesmer needs to be nerfed and this heavily? Dev would like to comment?

Agreed. Nerfed my trollbuild. Increased daze is nice, but useless when they can dodge. Don't know why that was changed at all...

In this stability-ridden meta it doesn't matter anyway

@Abelisk.4527 said:In this stability-ridden meta it doesn't matter anyway

It was fun against necros... :tongue:

Do the devs consider how changes affect the class as a whole before they make changes @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 ?

The game is balanced around builds that are actually good. Unused builds that get nerfed as part of collateral damage are less important than creating a healthy meta, because by definition they impact less people.

It's not fun but it's how it has to be.

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Abelisk.4527 said:In this stability-ridden meta it doesn't matter anyway

As a necro I am pained by this, cries on lack of stability

@mortrialus.3062 said:The game is balanced around builds that are actually good. Unused builds that get nerfed as part of collateral damage are less important than creating a healthy meta, because by definition they impact less people.

It's not fun but it's how it has to be.

I understand this, I don't think REQUIRING expansion specs to be able to pvp is an appropriate cost however. The continued nerf to core specs, instead of the root problems with elite specs, is not healthy for the game.

I am now thoroughly convinced that the devs are far more concerned with making the players "Happy" than actual Balance.Unfortunately, this behavior also tends to make the more dedicated portion of the community very "Unhappy".

@"Xstein.2187" said:I am now thoroughly convinced that the devs are far more concerned with making the players "Happy" than actual Balance.Unfortunately, this behavior also tends to make the more dedicated portion of the community very "Unhappy".

I'm pretty sure the competitive community as a whole is far more happy about this change than unhappy.

@Vicariuz.1605 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:The game is balanced around builds that are actually good. Unused builds that get nerfed as part of collateral damage are less important than creating a healthy meta, because by definition they impact less people.

It's not fun but it's how it has to be.

Not having Elite Specs in PvP or WvW, creating a stagnant meta with no new weapons, class mechanics, skills, traits, and combos to ever look forward to experiment with and look forward to would be the literal worst thing. People complain about balance and how much more balanced Pre-Hot was (It wasn't.) but still not having anything new to play with ever would be an unimaginably worse situation.

At the end of the day, I don't see too much point in getting personally emotionally attached to even the idea of playing core specs. What's more important is that the elite specializations are all unique, have a place in the game whether it's PvE or PvP, have interesting synergies with core traitlines, and create good thriving metas in all areas of the game.

@Turk.5460 said:

@"Xstein.2187" said:I am now thoroughly convinced that the devs are far more concerned with making the players "Happy" than actual Balance.Unfortunately, this behavior also tends to make the more dedicated portion of the community very "Unhappy".

please point to the "competitive community" as far as im aware, the closest thing to that is monthly AT, and we all know what a colossal joke they are when they are being sold regularly...

@Vicariuz.1605 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@"Xstein.2187" said:I am now thoroughly convinced that the devs are far more concerned with making the players "Happy" than actual Balance.Unfortunately, this behavior also tends to make the more dedicated portion of the community very "Unhappy".

points out the incredibly obvious Anyone who plays the competitive modes, sPvP and WvW. Competitive doesn't mean omni-potent skillful players. A WvW player or PvP player is still competing, regardless of play time or skill level.

I read that this change was made because the devs couldn't figure out how to fix a bug where this trait stuns an enemy in mid dodge. A little curious about what would happen if they changed it to turn daze into a taunt and fear at the same time. Now that's a confounding suggestion.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vicariuz.1605 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:The game is balanced around builds that are actually good. Unused builds that get nerfed as part of collateral damage are less important than creating a healthy meta, because by definition they impact less people.

It's not fun but it's how it has to be.

Not every one has the expansions, they have no choice but to be attached to core builds. Are you suggesting that core players and f2p players should not be able to compete in pvp?

@Vicariuz.1605 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vicariuz.1605 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:The game is balanced around builds that are actually good. Unused builds that get nerfed as part of collateral damage are less important than creating a healthy meta, because by definition they impact less people.

It's not fun but it's how it has to be.

I think elite specializations shouldn't be hard locks behind paywalls for SPvP in specific. The main appeal of SPvP for me when I started was that gear, level, stats, none of that mattered. What mattered is was how well you built your character how well you fought, and how well you rotated. Pay walling the Elite Specs goes against that even in a theoretical world where all core and elite specializations are perfectly balanced.

Confounding Suggestions change to become a secured stun has been one of the most ridiculous buffs anet has ever made. Not only it converted the big amount of soft CC mesmer has to hard CC, it also did it to a profession designed around bursts, opening for cancerous spec like stealth-burst GS power mesmer.

You can complain as much as you want about core builds, competitive community or your beloved build being nerfed, but it has nothing to do with it but the trait itself. Confounding Suggestions needed a nerf since day 0, and instead you got 3 years to abuse a cheap and cheesy stun.

So be grateful to anet to let a trait carry you.

@Ansau.7326 :Because it is well know that it's soooo easy to land a 12 sec burst without CC with telegraphied attacks in a minimum 3 skills combo. (ho someone tell me it's not.).You have to thanks that CS has been a stun during 3 years because it involed many colateral nerf.

@"Ansau.7326" said:Confounding Suggestions change to become a secured stun has been one of the most ridiculous buffs anet has ever made. Not only it converted the big amount of soft CC mesmer has to hard CC, it also did it to a profession designed around bursts, opening for cancerous spec like stealth-burst GS power mesmer.

You can complain as much as you want about core builds, competitive community or your beloved build being nerfed, but it has nothing to do with it but the trait itself. Confounding Suggestions needed a nerf since day 0, and instead you got 3 years to abuse a cheap and cheesy stun.

So be grateful to anet to let a trait carry you.

You have no CLUE what ur talking about. You think power mesmer is cancerous and condi mirage isnt? Let's duel and I'll show you the difference.

The "competitive community" never gave a shit about power mes, it's ALWAYS been second rate to condi mirage in high tier play, as some one who is regularly in legend/plat3, I WOULD KNOW.

My "beloved build?" What the fuck are you even on about? Nerfing an entire PLAYSTYLE AND AMULET CHOICE into the ground because TRASH players can't use a stun break is the epitome of TRASH development.

A trait carry me? I play every single class, every single build, i have over 30k games and am ALWAYS near the top of leaderboards, get your head out of your colon.

Core power mes is UNPLAYABLE above plat 1, meaning, CORE MESMER is UNPLAYABLE above plat 1 (there is NO core build that is even REMOTELY viable in pvp for mesmer at any decent rating). If you are unable to understand why and how bad that is for the game please do not respond any further as your wasting your time AND mine.

@"Vicariuz.1605" :As long as CS (continuum split.) and Chronophantasma exists the same way they are now (which basically make chrono a super core mes version.), core mes can't be playable. (cf https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/57925/fix-blocking-design#latest despite the fact that everyone does not care or gave up about core mes balance.)

@Vicariuz.1605 said:

@"Ansau.7326" said:Confounding Suggestions change to become a secured stun has been one of the most ridiculous buffs anet has ever made. Not only it converted the big amount of soft CC mesmer has to hard CC, it also did it to a profession designed around bursts, opening for cancerous spec like stealth-burst GS power mesmer.

You can complain as much as you want about core builds, competitive community or your beloved build being nerfed, but it has nothing to do with it but the trait itself. Confounding Suggestions needed a nerf since day 0, and instead you got 3 years to abuse a cheap and cheesy stun.

So be grateful to anet to let a trait carry you.

First of all, why do you bring into the discussion condi mirage when I didn't mention it? And even accepting that condi mirage is broken, why does it matter? Nothing that makes condi mirage OP has anything to do with Confounding suggestions, core mesmer or power builds.

Then, CS didn't defined a playstyle: GS burst exists since 2012, while cheesy CS was implemented in mid 2015. What CS did was to allow the abuse of such playstyle to the point where people played exclusively around it, and to drastically lower its skill floor so people who couldn't be successful before were now overperforming. And because of these points, this was the ideal and needed nerf that has finally arrived after 3 years of having a broken trait.

Let me open your mind with you 2 aspects of this game you need to realize:

1. Elite specializations are meant to be stronger than core ones. Not only because they are elite (a concept someone with a clue about Guild Wars should know, but apparently I'm a clueless guy despite playing GW1 and mesmer being my main since beta 1 in April 2012), but also because they change fundamental aspects of a profession, opening the possibility to cover weaknesses from core designs.Crying about core players not being as efficient in competitive modes is pointless, period. It's just you not accepting how arenanet develops this game.
2. sPvP is all about a strict and defined meta, anything that isn't part of this meta will have a hard time to be meaningful in high tiers of pvp. In fact, as more as you deviate from the meta builds, the harder it will be. And let's be honest, core power mesmer has several big weaknesses for sPvP with the current meta: No sustain, wet noodle against condis, lack of steady pressure, lack of melee presence... And this while still being overshadowed at some of its strengths: Not the best mobility or +1 capabilities. Surprising someone without a clue tells this to a regular plat3/legend with over 30k matches who thinks he knows.

But more importantly, you just showed us what are the true intentions of this thread. It is not about if the nerf to CS was reasonable or needed. It is you dropping your anger cause you cannot go higher in sPvP than what you wish with a core build as you took this necessary nerf to discharge all your frustrations and complains.

Elite specializations are meant to be stronger than core ones.Fondamentaly there are just supposed to give another gameplay.

Crying about core players not being as efficient in competitive modes is pointless, period. It's just you not accepting how arenanet develops this game.There are viable core specs. And they show a will to reduce the gap.

That said, the main differences between power core and power mirage are :1) power mirage have better mobility due to sword ambush and jaunt.2) power mirage can have condi clear with EM.3) power mirage does more pressure with greatsword ambush.

1) can attenued by :

• making core ulti at the same level of jaunt. (Problem: they can't because it will be op with chrono continuum split.)
• something usefull around mantra traits, preoteccted phantasms share, escape artist give 1 sec superspeed etc (aka compensate the loss of mobility.).

2) can be resolved if they put some condi clear out of inspiration.

3) can be resolved by things like phantasmal force. (Problem: they can't fix it because it will be op with chrono chronophantasma.)Without chronophantasma, it could be easy to do a core mesmer with the same pressure, even better at the price of less mobility than mirage.

That why I make the other post to discuss about what is blocking balance between core mesmer and elites.

I was not a fan when CS went to a 100% stun. I thought it was too much.

Now that the stun is gone...can I get my daze back on Mind Stab.

And how about giving back Harmonious Mantras so Mantra of Distraction can be 3 charges. (Or just give me 3 charges please.)

And all the other nerfs to Mesmer daze, that were done after CS went to daze=stun.

I want to play a real lockdown Mesmer again.

And in my opinion. I think CS was changed because of Mirage sword ambush and not because of Power one shot builds. Having clones applying a hard CC probably is crossing a line that ANet just determined.