Afterlife and why people are upset about death (heavy PoF and Season 4, Episode 4 spoilers) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Afterlife and why people are upset about death (heavy PoF and Season 4, Episode 4 spoilers)

Hashar.6082Hashar.6082 Member ✭✭
edited October 3, 2018 in Lore

So, in PoF the Commander dies, temporarily loses memory and personality (which seems to be an event unique to the traumatized souls from the Domain of the Lost), but eventually regains them and continues to function past bodily death. An ally NPC whose name I forget also restores her former self and eventually ends up helping in Kormir's library.
In S4E4, we meet Snaff and Eir and communicate with Glint, who oversees some portion of the Mists and protects those who venture there. Both Snaff and Eir appear to have their personalities, agency, and cognitive abilities completely preserved; from PoF, we know that they aren't just Mist echoes without self-awareness (or at least they don't have to be, as true afterlife existence is proven to be possible).
Thus, the question: why be mad at Logan for indirectly causing Glint's and Snaff's deaths, if they both still exist and can be interacted with? Why is Taimi afraid to die, if she knows she'll just end up hanging out with her perfect mentor and discussing science? Why did Blish decide to transfer his mind into a golem, which apparently made true final death (i.e. nonexistence) possible for him (in the form of taking his higher functions offline), if he could just let his body expire and continue his existence in the Mists? Why do the people of Tyria mourn their dead if they'll just meet them again in the afterlife; death should be an extremely frustrating inconvenience at most, but definitely not something to despair over?
The only possible explanation I'm seeing is that very few ghosts actually get to have a decent afterlife, but that should still produce considerably more hope and less fear.

<1

Comments

  • Castigator.3470Castigator.3470 Member ✭✭✭

    I guess this is fear of the unknown coupled with a strong survival instinct. Plus, you don't know where exactly the people you love end up in the mists. Humans have been told by their gods, norn shamans may have been able to sneak a peak into the Mists, but asura, despite being generally knowledgeable on magic, don't know all that much about the Mists. As for Blish: He may still be in his body, similarly to how a coma patient is still alive, but unable to act. (Except he has no sensory input, so even more horrible.) In his case golem immortality might be worse than death.
    Charr don't seem too upset, even though there was no mention of a charr afterlife yet. I guess there is one, but we also see many charr partaking in the mist war. Interestingly, Flame Legion seems very knowledgeable about death and the afterlife, being the only faction that attempted and almost succeeded at resurrecting someone since 250 years ago. Maybe we'll meet Gaheron again, to ask him about this?
    The race with the most reason to be upset are probably sylvari. Thanks to The Departing we know that sylvari have ghosts, like everyone else, but since the race is only around 30 years old, they might not know that.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    survival instinct, fear of the unknown and probably because it's goodbye forever to alot of her friends

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Rognik.2579Rognik.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    First off, it's natural to be scared of dying. Even in a world where you can go and visit the Underworld through a portal, that doesn't mean you want to move there permanently before it's your time. Part of it is a basic biological drive to want to stay alive and be active in this world, not the next.

    Second, it's not so much fear of what will happen in the next life, but being trapped in the Mists or some subsection of that where you've been sorted. Sure, there may be some sort of reward in the next world, but it's different from being in this one. And as Eir said, those spirits can only be here for so long. Spirits are not supposed to come back, and when they do, it's usually because something has gone wrong. They belong in the next world.

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hashar.6082 said:
    Thus, the question: why be mad at Logan for indirectly causing Glint's and Snaff's deaths, if they both still exist and can be interacted with? Why is Taimi afraid to die, if she knows she'll just end up hanging out with her perfect mentor and discussing science? Why did Blish decide to transfer his mind into a golem, which apparently made true final death (i.e. nonexistence) possible for him (in the form of taking his higher functions offline), if he could just let his body expire and continue his existence in the Mists? Why do the people of Tyria mourn their dead if they'll just meet them again in the afterlife; death should be an extremely frustrating inconvenience at most, but definitely not something to despair over?

    Let's be honest, a lot of the anger at Logan was Rytlock deflecting his own guilt at failing to protect Snaff. Yes, that was Logan's responsibility in the original plan, but when Destiny's Edge still decided to follow-through with an adjusted plan without him, Rytlock and Co. failed and so Logan (the deserter) and Eir (the strategist) received the lion's share of the blame. It's highly questionable whether their plan would have worked even with Logan there. So I think part of the anger also represents denial about their failures when faced with the true power of an Elder Dragon. Moreover, Rytlock seemed less upset that Snaff died and more upset at what he saw as Logan's desertion and that they failed to stop Kraalkatorik. If Snaff had died but Kraalkatorik had been defeated, then a lot of the resentment against Logan would likely not exist.

    In regards to the "Mistlife," the Mists are nebulous, containing fractals across time and space, and various domains and realms. The souls of the dead are still vulnerable to other dangerous entities who dwell in the Mists. Souls can forget their memories. They can disappear and fade entirely. So while one can potentially interact with souls of the dead, they are not guaranteed to have permanence in the Mists. And even if they exist, it may be difficult to reach the particular spirit. And while the commander's spirit had some semblance of its former self, some spirits are almost akin to mirages, illusions, or false echoes of the former person.

    Norn mourn their dead because their fundamental capability to cultivate their Legend ends in death. And for asura, their contributions to science basically ends. There is a certain element of tragedy, for example, with the meta-narrative of Dessa and the Mistlock Observatory. There is no new science being done there. They are fractal echoes essentially stuck in an infinite loop.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    Full sentience in death could be rare, and more likely Eir and Snaff might have specifically been “preserved” by Glint. For all we know they’re entirely unique. Most other spirits we’ve seen are restless, insane, cursed, have a divine connection, or have unfinished business. People who die in peace might fade into Nirvana, more or less. I don’t know a lot about the lore surrounding afterlife in universe though.

  • Honestly, asking this is like asking "Why is it bad to kill people if they go to heaven?"

    Like, yeah, it's not bad after they die. But that doesn't mean dying is a nice experience.

  • @JTHMRulez.9378 said:
    Honestly, asking this is like asking "Why is it bad to kill people if they go to heaven?"

    Like, yeah, it's not bad after they die. But that doesn't mean dying is a nice experience.

    If you kill everyone there will be no breeding thus no newcomers in the Afterlife which means nothing new will come about and the place will eventually stagnate... How is that a good thing!?!

  • I could ease his passage, if nothing else, send him to the Mists, where...well, who knew if it was any better there than here. Probably wasn't.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw

    So most people, even necromancers who deal with the dead a lot, don't know much of what goes on in the Mists. We players do because we're playing special characters.

    And ghosts that have moved on to the afterlife usually don't return from the Mists unlike Eir and Snaff; even their return was time limited. On top of that, it's very rare for ancient ghosts to be met on trips to the Mists or seen in Tyria - excluding the rather odd case of the Primeval Kings, there isn't a single case of souls older than 500 years old - those cases being Thorn and his son, and Turai and his people in Elon Riverlands (which, tbh, is a retcon to GW1 lore as it is). And the Thorns are a rather special situation. Besides them, the oldest souls seen in both games are only 200-250 years old, both in the Mists and in Tyria. And one case, Gwen, is a barely substantial, mute instance.

    Eir and Snaff are both only dead for a few years.

    There's nothing to really show how long souls last, either in Tyria or the Mists, or what they need to stay "around".

    But before Path of Fire, it was always treated as a "souls don't last forever, they'll eventually fade away, somehow".

  • So most souls will meet an unenviable fate after death, and the more cheerful examples from PoF and S4 are just rare exceptions. I see. Thank you for the answers.

    @JTHMRulez.9378 said:
    Honestly, asking this is like asking "Why is it bad to kill people if they go to heaven?"

    Like, yeah, it's not bad after they die. But that doesn't mean dying is a nice experience.

    Well, if everyone could somehow be certain that dead people will go to heaven (as opposed to hell, or purgatory, or endless void), killing someone would have the same emotional and moral implications as a forced permanent deportation to New Zealand which may or may not have been painful; which is to say, significantly lighter emotional and moral implications compared to an actual murder. Then again, I never understood the fear of dying as a physical sensation, while I understand the fear of death itself pretty strongly.

  • maybe, the afterlife, if you end up in a non-horrible place, is very very dull?

    Imagine being stuck there for all eternity with basically nothing to do. No food to enjoy, no quality time with your partner of choice, no nice smells, no labs and no new inventions for asural, no plants to talk to and sun to sit in as sylvari, no heroic deeds and no hunting for norn. No bewerages, no music. Nothing.

    Just plain boredom. Forever. Think of boring Sunday afternoons for all eternity.

    I would be scared shitless to die.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    It makes absolutely no sense. But game couldn't really build any suspense if death is quite openly trivialized.

  • I think the topic is more or less finished, so I will just sum it up in a bigger post for future copy/paste purposes:

    Death is cheap in Tyria and it always has been. There are many reasons for it, ranging from ghosts still walking on Tyria, over the underworld, to the fractals. While the Fractals appear to be a special case, the other two are deeply braided in lore since GW1 days. To the average Tyrian however, death still holds its horrors, mostly because of the fear of the unknown, but also for the reason that most individuals cannot leave the mists and come back to resume whatever they did before dying (barring certain NPCs who do just that, still offering trading goods, leading their own armies, etc). But there is not much reason for it, as we can see more or less everywhere: Ghosts are omnipresent in the game. There was after all a good reason for Joko to create ghost eaters and some species that devour ghosts seem to have developed on their own (Ascalonian Catacombs boss, scarabs…), meaning that spirits still lingering around is rather normal in Tyria, which might be the reason we see so many of them even on core maps. So, why exactly do Tyrians fear death?

    1) Not everyone has come into contact with those spirits. That makes however for a bad excuse, as by now it should be basic knowledge, especially with the church of Grenth around.

    2) On a fundamental scale, there might be some survival instinct for most species, leading them to fear death as a reflex. While this seems to be a good explanation, such instincts only make sense when you have the concept of evolution backing them up. We don’t really know how humans developed, seeing as they seem to be a pet project for the gods, but at least for Norn, Charr and Asura this could work. Well, if evolution worked on Tyria the same way it does on earth at least, which I heavily doubt after the Dev explanation of the origin of Jade Sea wildlife and the skimmer…

    3) With cheap death comes cheap suspense. A storyteller must have their ability to create tension. Death being the consequence of failure being used to create such tension is one of the oldest tools used by writers. So, what did the writers do? They ignored this part of Tyria’s reality and focused on something that mirrored our world to avoid/ignore the problem. I am not saying that it is a bad decision to do so, as it works just fine for most people, but yeah, like with most things going on around GW2, you shouldn’t think to hard about it, because it makes not much sense when you start to question it.

    One of the most glaring examples of sacrificing logic for an easier storytelling would be the complete removal of resurrection and healing magic in GW2. Let’s ignore resurrection and just focus on healing magic for a second. While certain wounds and illnesses in GW1 did indeed need special treatment that could not be replaced with magic (as seen with mental health, for example in “Unnatural Creatures”), a good monk was the backbone of every doctor’s office. Anet decided that they did not want a pure healing profession in GW2 for gameplay reasons, so they let monks disappear. This makes zero sense. It would mean that over just a few years the knowledge of dozens of enchantments, healing and protection spells was lost. This would never happen in a real world. Medical professions are far too integrated into society to lose such big amounts of fundamental and basic knowledge forever! Resurrection is by far the biggest offender. Bringing someone back from the dead is by far the most important art of healing in combat, and only in a peaceful world these arts may become more uncommon, but even there people would still learn resurrection spells to rescue someone who had a nasty accident - and Tyria was far from being a peaceful place in the last centuries. Under no circumstances should these arts just have died out to the extreme they did in GW2.

    I also have a problem with this theory here (taken from the Shining Blade Oath thread):

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    One theory is that the Six's departure, specifically Grenth's, is what prevents resurrection magic from working as it once did.

    First of all, Grenth seems like a bad choice here. We know after all that resurrection was a thing before he even existed, since Dhuum strictly forbade it and hunted down those who disobeyed him (“The Nightman Cometh”), making Dwayna a far better choice when trying to bind the ability to a deity. To suggest that the gods somehow enabled resurrection magic to work leaves quite a big room for questions though: Why did they allow it to work for other species they had no real interest in in GW1? While the healing spells are mostly called healing prayers, they are still considered spells/magic by the game, not some miracle. With magic growing stronger on Tyria over the years, shouldn’t they also get easier to perform? Even if they were prayers/miracles, these only explains monks. Ritualists use the power of their ancestors to perform their magic, so why did their resurrection spells stopped working? We know that the gods could have left some power in Tyria to still make it work (Nenah:” The magic of the gods remains strong, even in their absence.”), so why didn’t they? Claiming that the departing of the gods made it impossible to cast resurrection magic may look like a cheap way out of the writer’s problems, but it does not really make much sense. But since we have already discussed the way the writers deal with these problems above, who knows?

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    excluding the rather odd case of the Primeval Kings, there isn't a single case of souls older than 500 years old - those cases being Thorn and his son, and Turai and his people in Elon Riverlands (which, tbh, is a retcon to GW1 lore as it is). And the Thorns are a rather special situation. Besides them, the oldest souls seen in both games are only 200-250 years old, both in the Mists and in Tyria. And one case, Gwen, is a barely substantial, mute instance.

    In the case of GW2, I'd be inclined to chalk that up to how blind the setting seems to be to anything that happened much before GW1. But in the first game... if we take the Dynastic Spirits at their word, they're all over 600 years dead. If Nadijeh truly was the first of the Primeval Dynasty, that'd put Sogolon at around 1200 years dead. If Margonite culture can safely be assumed to have gone extinct with Abaddon's fall, Khimaar ismore than 1000 years dead, and there's no telling how many of the generic ghosts in the region were also Margonites. For the comparative scarcity of ghosts in that game, and the proportion of them that can't be dated, there's quite a fair few that can be verified as being truly old.

    @Hashar.6082 said:
    So most souls will meet an unenviable fate after death, and the more cheerful examples from PoF and S4 are just rare exceptions.

    Not so much that, as 'we don't know if the examples we've met are representative.' It may be that most souls meet terrible fates... or that most souls wind up in paradises that the PC will never view because there's nothing for players to kill there, or that the inevitable fate of the dead is to be reincarnated into the fruit of a particular species of desert cactus. For all we find ourselves entangled with certain aspects of it, we know very little about what dying and the afterlife entails in the Guild Wars universe.

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    Ghosts are omnipresent in the game. There was after all a good reason for Joko to create ghost eaters and some species that devour ghosts seem to have developed on their own (Ascalonian Catacombs boss, scarabs…), meaning that spirits still lingering around is rather normal in Tyria, which might be the reason we see so many of them even on core maps.

    There are many ghosts, but that still can only represent a small, small minority of those who die.

    Consider the Foefire ghosts. At launch, they represented the bulk of the ghosts in-game. They are the spirits of those Ascalonians who died in a single events- or, according to some interpretations, those Ascalonians who died across twenty years of war.

    That still leaves the Ascalonians who died in the 200 years since.

    And those from the 1200 years leading up to that war.

    And all of the charr from those 1400+ years.

    And all the grawl, ogres, harpies, and assorted other races who've died on that land.

    And all the races who've died in all the other lands.

    A lot is being made of ghosts in this thread, but if even one death in a thousand resulted in a ghost, there wouldn't be a spot in Tyria where you couldn't find a few.

    Let’s ignore resurrection and just focus on healing magic for a second. While certain wounds and illnesses in GW1 did indeed need special treatment that could not be replaced with magic (as seen with mental health, for example in “Unnatural Creatures”), a good monk was the backbone of every doctor’s office. Anet decided that they did not want a pure healing profession in GW2 for gameplay reasons, so they let monks disappear. This makes zero sense. It would mean that over just a few years the knowledge of dozens of enchantments, healing and protection spells was lost. This would never happen in a real world. Medical professions are far too integrated into society to lose such big amounts of fundamental and basic knowledge forever! Resurrection is by far the biggest offender. Bringing someone back from the dead is by far the most important art of healing in combat, and only in a peaceful world these arts may become more uncommon, but even there people would still learn resurrection spells to rescue someone who had a nasty accident - and Tyria was far from being a peaceful place in the last centuries. Under no circumstances should these arts just have died out to the extreme they did in GW2.

    I think your issues with resurrection are valid, but the monk's healing abilities have survived. The guardian grew out of the same tradition, and inherited the same body of knowledge. Many of their healing abilities are the monk's healing abilities, at least comparable to the extent that other professions have inherited abilities from their previous incarnations. Largely unlike those others, we've even seen the monk's abilities picked up by new users- one of the warrior's heals was originally a monk spell, and the Herald's heal draws on Glint's monk side. I haven't gone through to check, but I suspect that there are more GW1 monk skills still hanging around than GW1 mesmer skills.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    excluding the rather odd case of the Primeval Kings, there isn't a single case of souls older than 500 years old - those cases being Thorn and his son, and Turai and his people in Elon Riverlands (which, tbh, is a retcon to GW1 lore as it is). And the Thorns are a rather special situation. Besides them, the oldest souls seen in both games are only 200-250 years old, both in the Mists and in Tyria. And one case, Gwen, is a barely substantial, mute instance.

    In the case of GW2, I'd be inclined to chalk that up to how blind the setting seems to be to anything that happened much before GW1. But in the first game... if we take the Dynastic Spirits at their word, they're all over 600 years dead. If Nadijeh truly was the first of the Primeval Dynasty, that'd put Sogolon at around 1200 years dead. If Margonite culture can safely be assumed to have gone extinct with Abaddon's fall, Khimaar ismore than 1000 years dead, and there's no telling how many of the generic ghosts in the region were also Margonites. For the comparative scarcity of ghosts in that game, and the proportion of them that can't be dated, there's quite a fair few that can be verified as being truly old.

    It's very hard to tell which Dynasty those Dyanstic Spirits come from. Primeval Dynasty? Great Dynasty? Shattered Dynasty? Whatever dynasty came after?

    But in GW1, we also had, for one Wintersday, the Primeval Kings show up. None that show up in GW2, though. And it's unclear whether they showed up because of the portal or because that's just where they've been since death. And, of course, there's King Jahnus.

    And we know that Nadijeh is not the first of the Primeval Dynasty. She herself talks about "the first king" in the story instance:

    Some say the gods crowned the first Primeval king, set above the others who first set foot upon this land. However, the truth of this has long been forgotten, erased by the sands of time.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hallowed_Ground_(story)#Dialogue

    She wouldn't really be uncertain if she was crowned by the gods or not. This dialogue implies that it wasn't even her grandfather who was the first king (in fact, dialogue about how Elona was in a time of strife during her and Wasi's reigns, and she ended it, suggests that Wasi is her predecessor, immediate or not). Even Wasi doesn't seem to be first, though, since as he says: "I came into power in a time of war. Our armies were scattered, but I stood firm. Rallied the people. They came to know me as a defender of the desert."

    That said, I would have considered Sogolon and the other two "Sunspear Guard ghosts" (forgot their name off the top of my head) as part of the Primeval ghosts as we see in the Tomb.

    I did forget about Khimaar though.

  • @Hannelore.8153 said:
    The biggest reason is probably that in GW2, death is an unreliable fate.

    If you do world completion, you will encounter many ghosts would could not move on because their deaths were too traumatic. For example, one of them is a girl who became a Risen and had her body stolen by Zhaitan, and needed it to be destroyed before she could move on. The PC was lucky to end up in the Domain of the Lost, from what we have seen this is one of the better endings, and that many ghosts end up stuck in Tyria forever, with poor or nonexistent knowledge of who they are, and in some cases like the Ascalonian ghosts, stuck in time.

    And then lets say you do succeed in dying, moving onto the Mists and that your death isn't too traumatic. Even then, where you end up varies from person to person because of how they lived their life, who they served ,etc. For example, many Humans end up in domains that are specific to each of the Human gods, a reward to them given as a blessing for their servitude to that god in life.

    The thing to understand about the Mists, is its not a single place, but a vast proto-reality that spans the scope of the entire universe/multiverse, there is no guarantee that you would end up even remotely close to anyone that you know, it could take you hundreds of thousands of years or more to find your loved ones in the Mists if some higher power hasn't guaranteed that you would end up with them. The only reason we see cases of this with people like Eir and Snaff is because of powerful beings like Glint who helped them.

    Its also not yet fully understood whether Mists echos (like Dessa) are actual souls, or just protomatter. It could be that this is the fate of some people who die, to be forever caught in a time loop of which they are unaware, similar to Ascalonians.

    There is one more issue: Ghost eaters exist, both inside and outside of the Mists, and in various forms. There was a ghost eater in Ascalon Catacombs, and Palawa Joko also has his own versions of the ghost eaters, and then there was the Eater of Souls. These beings consume ghosts perrmanently, to where they don't even have an soul anymore. This means that even the afterlife can be a battle for existence.

    On top of all of this, there are also fates worse than death. During a Priory mission, Seiran mentions that you could be lost forever in shadow, and this is hinted at many times and we have seen the Domain of the Lost (after Grenth left) and Kormir's/Abbadon's Library both invaded by underworld creatures, meaning that there are also parts of the Mists--shadowrealms--which basically serve as "Hell". We have mostly seen the underworld from Mad King Thorn's, Grenth's and Dhuum's influence, but they are not native to it and it is implied to be much worse without them, and that living beings can become forever lost in these realms without even the release of death.

    If you had the chance of living a life in Tyria, would you risk being lost for all eternity--or worse--in death or otherwise? I think the only reason it went so well for us is because of our own power and accomplishments.. By this point we had helped almost everyone in Tyria, killed two Elder Dragons,, and been infused with unbound magic and directly exposured to ley energy. Throughout the entire story, it is established that the PC is one of the most powerful, knowledgeable, and renowned beings in existence, and even then we barely made it through.

    Anyway, that's my two cents. I hope it helps.

    This is a beautiful piece of writing.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    It's very hard to tell which Dynasty those Dyanstic Spirits come from. Primeval Dynasty? Great Dynasty? Shattered Dynasty? Whatever dynasty came after?

    Hm... you're right. Looking back at their dialogue, they refer to 'Dynasties' not 'Dynasty'. That probably puts them at post-Primeval.

    And we know that Nadijeh is not the first of the Primeval Dynasty. She herself talks about "the first king" in the story instance:

    Some say the gods crowned the first Primeval king, set above the others who first set foot upon this land. However, the truth of this has long been forgotten, erased by the sands of time.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hallowed_Ground_(story)#Dialogue

    Curious. I was taking her mention of uniting the tribes and, in the open world, her claim that "I was the one who united Elona. I am the reason it became a great nation. It exists because of me," to mean that she'd founded the Dynasty, but you're right, she never makes the claim, and looking at the GW1 timeline has reminded me that the Primevals didn't start burying their monarchs in the Tomb until more than two centuries into their rule.

    I'm not sold on Wasi being Nadijeh's predecessor, though. All he says is that he ruled during a time of war and defended his lands. With a dynasty that lasted for more than six hundred years, surely there was more than one period of significant warfare.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Hashar.6082 said:

    Thus, the question: why be mad at Logan for indirectly causing Glint's and Snaff's deaths, if they both still exist and can be interacted with? Why is Taimi afraid to die, if she knows she'll just end up hanging out with her perfect mentor and discussing science? Why did Blish decide to transfer his mind into a golem, which apparently made true final death (i.e. nonexistence) possible for him (in the form of taking his higher functions offline), if he could just let his body expire and continue his existence in the Mists? Why do the people of Tyria mourn their dead if they'll just meet them again in the afterlife; death should be an extremely frustrating inconvenience at most, but definitely not something to despair over?
    The only possible explanation I'm seeing is that very few ghosts actually get to have a decent afterlife, but that should still produce considerably more hope and less fear.

    I think the answer can be this:

    @Castigator.3470 said:
    I guess this is fear of the unknown coupled with a strong survival instinct. Plus, you don't know where exactly the people you love end up in the mists.

    But, even if this can be a valid explanation, in my opinion the reason for this situation is the unclear status of the Gods. Any God, claiming he/she is the master of a certain domain should explain to his/hers followers at least the basics. Knowing the fate of a soul after dead may eliminate the fear of the unknown, leaving only the bitter taste of some unfinished business/lost friends in case of dead. I don't think the survival instinct plays a role in the regrets / fears caused by dead. Breathing keeps you alive but you are not immortal by breathing. This is the case with the survival instinct: it can keep you alive in some situations but you cannot avoid dead by having it.

    But, apparently, the Gods did not explain to the mortals what is after dead. They become more and more like a caricature than a god. What I said, god? These ..... beings are less responsible for the livings than a mortal ruler.

    The lack of decision of the lore team regarding the gods status propagates through the entire story, creating more and more controversial aspects. As long as the Realm of the Dead has a god, the humans (at least the humans) should know the fate of a deceased person and no fear (or regrets) should appear as long they trust the God. It seems is not the case here.

    @Rognik.2579 said:
    First off, it's natural to be scared of dying.

    The dead is the only thing we know it will happen, no matter what. Being afraid of this will hurt the mental sanity of a person.
    The only fear I can consider regarding this case is related of the way you die or related of the moment of dead.

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    Ghosts are omnipresent in the game. There was after all a good reason for Joko to create ghost eaters and some species that devour ghosts seem to have developed on their own (Ascalonian Catacombs boss, scarabs…), meaning that spirits still lingering around is rather normal in Tyria, which might be the reason we see so many of them even on core maps.

    There are many ghosts, but that still can only represent a small, small minority of those who die.

    Consider the Foefire ghosts. At launch, they represented the bulk of the ghosts in-game. They are the spirits of those Ascalonians who died in a single events- or, according to some interpretations, those Ascalonians who died across twenty years of war.

    That still leaves the Ascalonians who died in the 200 years since.

    And those from the 1200 years leading up to that war.

    And all of the charr from those 1400+ years.

    And all the grawl, ogres, harpies, and assorted other races who've died on that land.

    And all the races who've died in all the other lands.

    A lot is being made of ghosts in this thread, but if even one death in a thousand resulted in a ghost, there wouldn't be a spot in Tyria where you couldn't find a few.

    That is indeed a good point. But shouldn’t most people then come to the conclusion that there must be at least something after death, instead of the endless void? Doesn’t this knowledge already destroy some of the fear of the unknown, the main reason we fear death?

    Let’s ignore resurrection and just focus on healing magic for a second. While certain wounds and illnesses in GW1 did indeed need special treatment that could not be replaced with magic (as seen with mental health, for example in “Unnatural Creatures”), a good monk was the backbone of every doctor’s office. Anet decided that they did not want a pure healing profession in GW2 for gameplay reasons, so they let monks disappear. This makes zero sense. It would mean that over just a few years the knowledge of dozens of enchantments, healing and protection spells was lost. This would never happen in a real world. Medical professions are far too integrated into society to lose such big amounts of fundamental and basic knowledge forever! Resurrection is by far the biggest offender. Bringing someone back from the dead is by far the most important art of healing in combat, and only in a peaceful world these arts may become more uncommon, but even there people would still learn resurrection spells to rescue someone who had a nasty accident - and Tyria was far from being a peaceful place in the last centuries. Under no circumstances should these arts just have died out to the extreme they did in GW2.

    I think your issues with resurrection are valid, but the monk's healing abilities have survived. The guardian grew out of the same tradition, and inherited the same body of knowledge. Many of their healing abilities are the monk's healing abilities, at least comparable to the extent that other professions have inherited abilities from their previous incarnations. Largely unlike those others, we've even seen the monk's abilities picked up by new users- one of the warrior's heals was originally a monk spell, and the Herald's heal draws on Glint's monk side. I haven't gone through to check, but I suspect that there are more GW1 monk skills still hanging around than GW1 mesmer skills.

    I believe you misunderstood me there. I know the lore of how the Guardians are supposed to have included the monk’s abilities in their hybrid profession. I just think that they have done a terrible job at it. If you compare the impact of the monk’s wide rage of healing and protection spells from GW1 to what Guardians are able to in GW2, you will have to agree that the capabilities of the Guardians are laughable compared to a monks from 250 Years ago. Just take a look at enchantments: They were all wiped out! What we are left with are some boons. How can protection and regeneration even be compared with something like Protective Spirit, Reverse of Fortune, Spell Shield or Mark of Protection? That not only goes for monks but other professions too. Arcane Echo got merged with Echo and reduced to something that can’t even copy most spells, just a few utilities? And that is an enchantment that survived more or less intact. Look at all those that were simply lost. You mentioned the Mesmer: The fact that Livia uses fragility (a Mesmer hex, nice to see so many GW1 survivors picked up Mesmer as their secondary profession, though I am happy they included that mechanic for those few cases in GW2 at all, it is a nice touch) means that this simple, but effective hex, simply got forgotten in these few years? ALL of the hexes did? Just a few condition applications are left from all the former glory of Mesmers and Necromancers? How?! That is such an immense loss of knowledge.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    But in GW1, we also had, for one Wintersday, the Primeval Kings show up. None that show up in GW2, though. And it's unclear whether they showed up because of the portal or because that's just where they've been since death. And, of course, there's King Jahnus.

    I think I remember that. If I recall correctly, not all of them were present though. The drops of The Darkness hint at a few more kings and queens, for example Queen Illyana, who is mentioned nowhere else. I was actually surprised they went with King Wasi in the story Mission in GW2, I thought for a second that they renamed King Wenslauss, especially since it was such a defensive spirit, fitting for a GW1 Monk. Since they were all buried here (the drops were likely stolen from the graves), I think simply not all of the Royalty makes an appearance. More interestingly, and please correct me if I am wrong, expect Janus, who wasn’t in the graves in neither of the games, none of those spirits appear in both games. So if a spirit appears in GW2 times, they were not present in GW1 and vice Vera. I don’t think there is a real reason behind it though, but maybe the spirits from GW1 times went in to the hall of heroes and had other things to do in the mists with the latest trouble, leaving only those few behind that we can still meet.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    But, apparently, the Gods did not explain to the mortals what is after dead. They become more and more like a caricature than a god. What I said, god? These ..... beings are less responsible for the livings than a mortal ruler.

    I am pretty sure the scriptures of the gods must contain some stories about the afterlife. We as a player simply don’t know about them, but seeing as the believes in the six is so fleshed out, its hard to believe that there would be no mention of the afterlife somewhere, especially since 1) we know these places exist, 2) the gods are real and seem to have an interest to keep their believers around. The lack of believe in those scriptures was caused by the absence of the gods and the distrust in their teachings, that followed, which is a reasonably reaction for someone who can not be sure they even existed in the first place and are not a bunch of made up lies by the church.

  • Just take a look at enchantments: They were all wiped out! What we are left with are some boons. How can protection and regeneration even be compared with something like Protective Spirit, Reverse of Fortune, Spell Shield or Mark of Protection? That not only goes for monks but other professions too. Arcane Echo got merged with Echo and reduced to something that can’t even copy most spells, just a few utilities? And that is an enchantment that survived more or less intact.

    I intend to go on in here with my little theory that lowered ambient magical levels (caused by elder dragons activity so far) is at fault in here - so basically we can't pull out all these stunts anymore, because there is not enought ambient arcane juice in out proximity to power them up.

    with livia cheating the system same way she mantained her young body ;)

    but feel free to not take it as canon that's just my theory that fits the hole decently (based on dialogue lines from asuran ps)

  • @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    Just take a look at enchantments: They were all wiped out! What we are left with are some boons. How can protection and regeneration even be compared with something like Protective Spirit, Reverse of Fortune, Spell Shield or Mark of Protection? That not only goes for monks but other professions too. Arcane Echo got merged with Echo and reduced to something that can’t even copy most spells, just a few utilities? And that is an enchantment that survived more or less intact.

    I intend to go on in here with my little theory that lowered ambient magical levels (caused by elder dragons activity so far) is at fault in here - so basically we can't pull out all these stunts anymore, because there is not enought ambient arcane juice in out proximity to power them up.

    with livia cheating the system same way she mantained her young body ;)

    but feel free to not take it as canon that's just my theory that fits the hole decently (based on dialogue lines from asuran ps)

    Thank you for your explanation attempt, but I am afraid this might go against established lore. The elder dragons feed on magic, meaning that they awaken when the level of ambient magic is high. Thus, before they woke up, the magic level was high. After that, it might have gone down a little…. up until we killed 2 of them and released so much ambient magic that it coagulates into daily mystic coins by now. I am afraid the level of ambient magic never was lower than in GW1 times, which means that explanations based on such are rather problematic.

  • @Nikolai.3648 said:
    I think I remember that. If I recall correctly, not all of them were present though. The drops of The Darkness hint at a few more kings and queens, for example Queen Illyana, who is mentioned nowhere else. I was actually surprised they went with King Wasi in the story Mission in GW2, I thought for a second that they renamed King Wenslauss, especially since it was such a defensive spirit, fitting for a GW1 Monk. Since they were all buried here (the drops were likely stolen from the graves), I think simply not all of the Royalty makes an appearance. More interestingly, and please correct me if I am wrong, expect Janus, who wasn’t in the graves in neither of the games, none of those spirits appear in both games. So if a spirit appears in GW2 times, they were not present in GW1 and vice Vera. I don’t think there is a real reason behind it though, but maybe the spirits from GW1 times went in to the hall of heroes and had other things to do in the mists with the latest trouble, leaving only those few behind that we can still meet.

    Not all of The Darknesses' drops were related to the Primeval Kings, it should be noted. For example, it had Lord Victus' weapons, and he was an Orrian hero from 200 years prior to GW1. He was there via the portal to the Hall of Heroes though, per [the short story](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Rift_(story%29).

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    I think I remember that. If I recall correctly, not all of them were present though. The drops of The Darkness hint at a few more kings and queens, for example Queen Illyana, who is mentioned nowhere else. I was actually surprised they went with King Wasi in the story Mission in GW2, I thought for a second that they renamed King Wenslauss, especially since it was such a defensive spirit, fitting for a GW1 Monk. Since they were all buried here (the drops were likely stolen from the graves), I think simply not all of the Royalty makes an appearance. More interestingly, and please correct me if I am wrong, expect Janus, who wasn’t in the graves in neither of the games, none of those spirits appear in both games. So if a spirit appears in GW2 times, they were not present in GW1 and vice Vera. I don’t think there is a real reason behind it though, but maybe the spirits from GW1 times went in to the hall of heroes and had other things to do in the mists with the latest trouble, leaving only those few behind that we can still meet.

    Not all of The Darknesses' drops were related to the Primeval Kings, it should be noted. For example, it had Lord Victus' weapons, and he was an Orrian hero from 200 years prior to GW1. He was there via the portal to the Hall of Heroes though, per [the short story](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Rift_(story%29).

    While I was aware that not all of the weapons did have the same background (the Ogre-Slaying Knife being the most obvious example) I indeed should have mentioned that. I did however forget about the short story, only remembering Lord Victo by name, so it was a nice reread. Thank you for it. You might want to fix the link though. I do however think that most of the weapons are from the royal family (8 from 15 at least), though I have to admit that I find it a bit strange that Illyana, who I specifically picked out, is indeed never mentioned again, leaving them (I assumed by the name they were female, but we really don’t know) another unknown mystery to me that probably won’t be mentioned ever again.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2018

    I'm seeing a lot being made of 'fear of the unknown' throughout this thread, but, at least in my experience, and the experiences of those close to me, that isn't the main reason to fear death. It's loss, and that is very much still a factor in what we know of the afterlife in GW2. Even if you can be assured that your soul will live on, you lose your home. You lose the pursuits you've dedicated your existence up to that point to. You lose the people you surrounded yourself with, your loved ones, your colleagues, your social contacts. You lose your pets, you lose your keepsakes, you lose your sense of place in the world. You lose physical sensation. You lose everything except awareness, knowledge, and memory, and in most of the cases, you lose it forever. (The humans, at least, maintain a number of separate afterlives, so even reuniting after death isn't a sure thing.) From there, you can fall headlong into the debate on whether identity is circumstantial, but regardless, that is potential for a devastating amount of loss and grief and existential angst.

    I would argue that could justify some terror.

    @Nikolai.3648 said:

    I believe you misunderstood me there. I know the lore of how the Guardians are supposed to have included the monk’s abilities in their hybrid profession. I just think that they have done a terrible job at it. If you compare the impact of the monk’s wide rage of healing and protection spells from GW1 to what Guardians are able to in GW2, you will have to agree that the capabilities of the Guardians are laughable compared to a monks from 250 Years ago. Just take a look at enchantments: They were all wiped out! What we are left with are some boons. How can protection and regeneration even be compared with something like Protective Spirit, Reverse of Fortune, Spell Shield or Mark of Protection? That not only goes for monks but other professions too. Arcane Echo got merged with Echo and reduced to something that can’t even copy most spells, just a few utilities? And that is an enchantment that survived more or less intact. Look at all those that were simply lost. You mentioned the Mesmer: The fact that Livia uses fragility (a Mesmer hex, nice to see so many GW1 survivors picked up Mesmer as their secondary profession, though I am happy they included that mechanic for those few cases in GW2 at all, it is a nice touch) means that this simple, but effective hex, simply got forgotten in these few years? ALL of the hexes did? Just a few condition applications are left from all the former glory of Mesmers and Necromancers? How?! That is such an immense loss of knowledge.

    Ah, I see. That's a fair point, and it's one that's bothered me as well, but to raise the most convincing counter-argument I've seen: was the knowledge lost, or outmoded? Sanctuary combines the effects of all four of the protection spells you listed, extends the benefit to everyone nearby instead of a single target, prevents the enemy from approaching, and creates a field that can be further exploited, all with one spell. Mesmer's changed focus, which is why I pick on it so much; the hexes are gone, often without replacement, but in exchange they got portals, invisibility, chronomancer nonsense, and more. Necromancers have lost a little in the virility of their curses, but the staying power provided by the new ways they utilize life force make them a much greater threat in this game than I ever found them to be in the first. Even if Grenth's Balance is preserved in a tome somewhere, it'd be a hard sell when one could be learning the Scourge skillset instead.

    (Naturally, none of this applies to resurrection, which is why people hold onto the 'gods did it' argument so tightly despite the only basis being a couple of off-the-cuff comments in pre-release interviews; it's the only reasoning that comes close to making sense of the loss of such a vital and ubiquitous skill.)

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Nikolai.3648 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    Just take a look at enchantments: They were all wiped out! What we are left with are some boons. How can protection and regeneration even be compared with something like Protective Spirit, Reverse of Fortune, Spell Shield or Mark of Protection? That not only goes for monks but other professions too. Arcane Echo got merged with Echo and reduced to something that can’t even copy most spells, just a few utilities? And that is an enchantment that survived more or less intact.

    I intend to go on in here with my little theory that lowered ambient magical levels (caused by elder dragons activity so far) is at fault in here - so basically we can't pull out all these stunts anymore, because there is not enought ambient arcane juice in out proximity to power them up.

    with livia cheating the system same way she mantained her young body ;)

    but feel free to not take it as canon that's just my theory that fits the hole decently (based on dialogue lines from asuran ps)

    Thank you for your explanation attempt, but I am afraid this might go against established lore. The elder dragons feed on magic, meaning that they awaken when the level of ambient magic is high. Thus, before they woke up, the magic level was high. After that, it might have gone down a little…. up until we killed 2 of them and released so much ambient magic that it coagulates into daily mystic coins by now. I am afraid the level of ambient magic never was lower than in GW1 times, which means that explanations based on such are rather problematic.

    well firstly on the level scale drop - in asuran ps it is directly said that those levels are "dropping at an alarming rate" - it's fair to assume that there is not much variation in rate at which they consume it, so if the "alarming rates" were kept up for 250 years - that would be quite a noticeable drop.

    as for magic released from killing those dragons - it's not arcane energy they'd "fart" out when asleep, but volatile draconic magic - and there is whole side story dedicated to side effects of absorbing this one, so it'd not be high stretch to consider this one not being exacly "safe" to channel.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2018

    @Hashar.6082 said:
    So, in PoF the Commander dies, temporarily loses memory and personality (which seems to be an event unique to the traumatized souls from the Domain of the Lost), but eventually regains them and continues to function past bodily death. An ally NPC whose name I forget also restores her former self and eventually ends up helping in Kormir's library.
    In S4E4, we meet Snaff and Eir and communicate with Glint, who oversees some portion of the Mists and protects those who venture there. Both Snaff and Eir appear to have their personalities, agency, and cognitive abilities completely preserved; from PoF, we know that they aren't just Mist echoes without self-awareness (or at least they don't have to be, as true afterlife existence is proven to be possible).
    Thus, the question: why be mad at Logan for indirectly causing Glint's and Snaff's deaths, if they both still exist and can be interacted with? Why is Taimi afraid to die, if she knows she'll just end up hanging out with her perfect mentor and discussing science? Why did Blish decide to transfer his mind into a golem, which apparently made true final death (i.e. nonexistence) possible for him (in the form of taking his higher functions offline), if he could just let his body expire and continue his existence in the Mists? Why do the people of Tyria mourn their dead if they'll just meet them again in the afterlife; death should be an extremely frustrating inconvenience at most, but definitely not something to despair over?
    The only possible explanation I'm seeing is that very few ghosts actually get to have a decent afterlife, but that should still produce considerably more hope and less fear.

    The same fear as we all human have- we don't know what's death, we believe there is some kind of afterlife (many of us), but still there is this: I do not wanna die...

    Taimi for example will no longer be able to study and bring something new to the science, even Snaff could only leave the Mists only for a short while.

    BTW If this information from A Star to Guide Us doesn't involve Zojja in the future story, then the whole Taimi's story is pointless. Maybe she will be able to make her life longer with some medicine, but for some illnesses there are no cure, and Taimi's one is very much not curable.

  • @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    well firstly on the level scale drop - in asuran ps it is directly said that those levels are "dropping at an alarming rate" - it's fair to assume that there is not much variation in rate at which they consume it, so if the "alarming rates" were kept up for 250 years - that would be quite a noticeable drop.

    Oh, this sounds interesting. Do you remember the exact story instance by any chance? While I like the Asura, I admit not caring too much about there personal story lines, so I might have missed that quote. I am not sure if they were awake long enough to gather enough ambient magic to have such an impact though. It is rather implied that they mostly consumed artefacts with high concentrations of magic. At least in Zhaitans case we know that for sure, while Primordus might snack on some dwarven artefacts and Mordremoth was being fed by a Leyline. I would be surprised if 200 Years were enough for them to consume such a high amount of ambient magic, seeing as their last reign lasted long enough to have such devastating effects on the world.

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    I'm seeing a lot being made of 'fear of the unknown' throughout this thread, but, at least in my experience, and the experiences of those close to me, that isn't the main reason to fear death. It's loss, and that is very much still a factor in what we know of the afterlife in GW2. Even if you can be assured that your soul will live on, you lose your home. You lose the pursuits you've dedicated your existence up to that point to. You lose the people you surrounded yourself with, your loved ones, your colleagues, your social contacts. You lose your pets, you lose your keepsakes, you lose your sense of place in the world. You lose physical sensation. You lose everything except awareness, knowledge, and memory, and in most of the cases, you lose it forever. (The humans, at least, maintain a number of separate afterlives, so even reuniting after death isn't a sure thing.) From there, you can fall headlong into the debate on whether identity is circumstantial, but regardless, that is potential for a devastating amount of loss and grief and existential angst.

    I would argue that could justify some terror.

    This is a good point. Especially the loss of sensation would most likely feel terrible at first. On the other hand, we can see that many spirits are not that bothered by it, still doing what they liked when they were alive (lots of traders for example). I think the loss of family is also a great point, since we even have a spirit of a mother that watches over her child but does not interact with her family, but on the other hand we have Ewyn’s friends actively comforting him even in death. Regardless, your text is another good example why death might scare the average tyrian.

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    Ah, I see. That's a fair point, and it's one that's bothered me as well, but to raise the most convincing counter-argument I've seen: was the knowledge lost, or outmoded? Sanctuary combines the effects of all four of the protection spells you listed, extends the benefit to everyone nearby instead of a single target, prevents the enemy from approaching, and creates a field that can be further exploited, all with one spell. Mesmer's changed focus, which is why I pick on it so much; the hexes are gone, often without replacement, but in exchange they got portals, invisibility, chronomancer nonsense, and more. Necromancers have lost a little in the virility of their curses, but the staying power provided by the new ways they utilize life force make them a much greater threat in this game than I ever found them to be in the first. Even if Grenth's Balance is preserved in a tome somewhere, it'd be a hard sell when one could be learning the Scourge skillset instead.

    (Naturally, none of this applies to resurrection, which is why people hold onto the 'gods did it' argument so tightly despite the only basis being a couple of off-the-cuff comments in pre-release interviews; it's the only reasoning that comes close to making sense of the loss of such a vital and ubiquitous skill.)

    I personally still believe that most (not all, but the vast majority) of the skills from GW2 can’t hold a candle to the effect of GW1 skills. Hexes are imo the best example: They were efficient and powerful. Even if the focus shifted (which is not a bad decision, after all the Mesmer from today may value other things in combat than their GW1 counterpart), it is astonishing that we don’t see them anywhere in modern times. At least some people should have seen their potential and at least conserved them. Why would they simply stop using them? Its like a new medical technique being developed: While most people will adapt this one, as long as the older techniques have their uses, they will never get forgotten. We still stitch wounds up after all, which dates back quite a long time, because it is still useful. While the field opened up to more techniques a medic is supposed to know, that is no excuse to just forget a fundamental skill. Hexes are the same way. I find portal and clones enjoyable, I like blink being copied from the assassins… but I cannot comprehend how not only a profession would waste such enormous potential in skills by ignoring them, but how such arts seem to be lost as a whole.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2018

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    well firstly on the level scale drop - in asuran ps it is directly said that those levels are "dropping at an alarming rate" - it's fair to assume that there is not much variation in rate at which they consume it, so if the "alarming rates" were kept up for 250 years - that would be quite a noticeable drop.

    That alarming rate is with five of the dragons awake, however. That wasn't the case for the full 250 years, and we do have dev confirmation that overall magic levels at the start of GW2 are higher than they were at the end of GW1. If that's true... doing a quick bit of simplistic math, that indicates that up to the start of the game, the dragons were consuming magic at less than twice the rate they were leaking it while sleeping. There's some... interesting implications to be gleaned from that. It suggests that the waking portion of their cycle may be quite long, even without us going around prolonging it.

    @Nikolai.3648 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    well firstly on the level scale drop - in asuran ps it is directly said that those levels are "dropping at an alarming rate" - it's fair to assume that there is not much variation in rate at which they consume it, so if the "alarming rates" were kept up for 250 years - that would be quite a noticeable drop.

    Oh, this sounds interesting. Do you remember the exact story instance by any chance?

    This one, and its Priory counterpart. It's a conclusion Gorr reaches upon confirmation that all dragon minions feed on the ambient magic around them.

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    I'm seeing a lot being made of 'fear of the unknown' throughout this thread, but, at least in my experience, and the experiences of those close to me, that isn't the main reason to fear death. It's loss, and that is very much still a factor in what we know of the afterlife in GW2. Even if you can be assured that your soul will live on, you lose your home. You lose the pursuits you've dedicated your existence up to that point to. You lose the people you surrounded yourself with, your loved ones, your colleagues, your social contacts. You lose your pets, you lose your keepsakes, you lose your sense of place in the world. You lose physical sensation. You lose everything except awareness, knowledge, and memory, and in most of the cases, you lose it forever. (The humans, at least, maintain a number of separate afterlives, so even reuniting after death isn't a sure thing.) From there, you can fall headlong into the debate on whether identity is circumstantial, but regardless, that is potential for a devastating amount of loss and grief and existential angst.

    I would argue that could justify some terror.

    This is a good point. Especially the loss of sensation would most likely feel terrible at first. On the other hand, we can see that many spirits are not that bothered by it, still doing what they liked when they were alive (lots of traders for example).

    That was part of my point, actually. You're referring to ghosts, yes? The ones in the Crystal Desert may be a special case- it's indicated that at least some of them, perhaps all of the ones we encounter, were trapped there by the Flameseeker Prophecies- but for the rest, that means they're clinging to their way of life. Unless there's an economy in the afterlife, that's not something they'd be able to hold on to once they've gone to their final destination.

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    Ah, I see. That's a fair point, and it's one that's bothered me as well, but to raise the most convincing counter-argument I've seen: was the knowledge lost, or outmoded? Sanctuary combines the effects of all four of the protection spells you listed, extends the benefit to everyone nearby instead of a single target, prevents the enemy from approaching, and creates a field that can be further exploited, all with one spell. Mesmer's changed focus, which is why I pick on it so much; the hexes are gone, often without replacement, but in exchange they got portals, invisibility, chronomancer nonsense, and more. Necromancers have lost a little in the virility of their curses, but the staying power provided by the new ways they utilize life force make them a much greater threat in this game than I ever found them to be in the first. Even if Grenth's Balance is preserved in a tome somewhere, it'd be a hard sell when one could be learning the Scourge skillset instead.

    (Naturally, none of this applies to resurrection, which is why people hold onto the 'gods did it' argument so tightly despite the only basis being a couple of off-the-cuff comments in pre-release interviews; it's the only reasoning that comes close to making sense of the loss of such a vital and ubiquitous skill.)

    I personally still believe that most (not all, but the vast majority) of the skills from GW2 can’t hold a candle to the effect of GW1 skills. Hexes are imo the best example: They were efficient and powerful. Even if the focus shifted (which is not a bad decision, after all the Mesmer from today may value other things in combat than their GW1 counterpart), it is astonishing that we don’t see them anywhere in modern times. At least some people should have seen their potential and at least conserved them. Why would they simply stop using them? Its like a new medical technique being developed: While most people will adapt this one, as long as the older techniques have their uses, they will never get forgotten. We still stitch wounds up after all, which dates back quite a long time, because it is still useful. While the field opened up to more techniques a medic is supposed to know, that is no excuse to just forget a fundamental skill. Hexes are the same way. I find portal and clones enjoyable, I like blink being copied from the assassins… but I cannot comprehend how not only a profession would waste such enormous potential in skills by ignoring them, but how such arts seem to be lost as a whole.

    I do agree, particularly in the mesmer's case. There's a staggering amount of utility they've lost in switching over to the more tangible effects we see in GW2. At least a bit of it still seems to be around- the novels show three mesmers reading minds and a couple others sending mental messages, for instance- but given how unclear it is what may or may not still be around, it's something I'm on the fence about.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    This one, and its Priory counterpart. It's a conclusion Gorr reaches upon confirmation that all dragon minions feed on the ambient magic around them.

    Thank you very much for the source.

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    That was part of my point, actually. You're referring to ghosts, yes? The ones in the Crystal Desert may be a special case- it's indicated that at least some of them, perhaps all of the ones we encounter, were trapped there by the Flameseeker Prophecies- but for the rest, that means they're clinging to their way of life. Unless there's an economy in the afterlife, that's not something they'd be able to hold on to once they've gone to their final destination.

    Yes, since there were so many around. I agree that the ghosts seem to cling to their former life, but wouldn’t this seem natural to most Tyrians who stumbled upon them? I am pretty sure that if I met a ghost in the real world I would have to rethink my view on the world, but if I lived in a world of magic and met a ghost, I think that any real fear of death would become more bearable. Not only can I now know for certain that there must be at least something after death, I might even get the chance to continue what I did in my life. I am no even sure if passing onto the final destination would appear to be such a good deal – why not just stick around like the spirits in the tombs, with most of my friends I knew in life? Sure, this may be unlikely, but the human psyche can be great at ignoring chances (which may be the reason why humans are surprisingly bad at stochastics, compared to other types of math).

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    Unless there's an economy in the afterlife, that's not something they'd be able to hold on to once they've gone to their final destination.

    We really should ask Druuburt about that 😉

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    I do agree, particularly in the mesmer's case. There's a staggering amount of utility they've lost in switching over to the more tangible effects we see in GW2. At least a bit of it still seems to be around- the novels show three mesmers reading minds and a couple others sending mental messages, for instance- but given how unclear it is what may or may not still be around, it's something I'm on the fence about.

    I wholeheartedly agree: The absence is what irritates me. I have no problem with hexes not available to the players, but the total lack of them everywhere in the game irritates me to no end. The same goes of course for other skills too. If we were supposed to believe they are still around, just not what the players specializes in, that would be fine – but then but at least some characters in the game who use them. The way it looks right now simply implies that they were all forgotten, which makes no sense.

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    That alarming rate is with five of the dragons awake, however. That wasn't the case for the full 250 years, and we do have dev confirmation that overall magic levels at the start of GW2 are higher than they were at the end of GW1.

    I assume you are refering to

    Since the dragons have been waking in recent years, one might assume that magic is at its peak right now, and the dragons are here to drain the world. They tap the world’s magic, consume it, and reduce the overall level of available magic in the world.

    part
    buuuuuuuuuuuuuut
    GW2 story starts few years after the last dragon awoke. So considering they were all active for few years untinterrupted I'd say as far as "safe" ambient magic is way past it's peak.
    ("one might assume" is hardly confirmation tho, but point is fair enought this thing is happening for a tad too short timespan to actually inhibit certain areas of spells)

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    I wholeheartedly agree: The absence is what irritates me. I have no problem with hexes not available to the players, but the total lack of them everywhere in the game irritates me to no end.

    b..b...but livia still uses hexes!

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2018

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    I wholeheartedly agree: The absence is what irritates me. I have no problem with hexes not available to the players, but the total lack of them everywhere in the game irritates me to no end. The same goes of course for other skills too. If we were supposed to believe they are still around, just not what the players specializes in, that would be fine – but then but at least some characters in the game who use them. The way it looks right now simply implies that they were all forgotten, which makes no sense.

    Livia uses hexes in S3E6 and during the Awakened attacks. E.g., FragilityWhen developers commented on this, they more or less said that they wanted to show that Livia was using archaic forms of magic.

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    GW2 story starts few years after the last dragon awoke. So considering they were all active for few years untinterrupted I'd say as far as "safe" ambient magic is way past it's peak.

    Nitpickery, but the last Elder Dragon woke up during the plot (Mordremoth). And since the Elder Dragons were awake, wouldn't that mean since their awakening the magic had been going down (until we killed one and released all of that ED's magic into the wild, that is).

    And technically speaking, since what triggered the Elder Dragons waking up was Abaddon's temporarily unleashed magic before Kormir absorbed it, that would indicate that Tyria was never at the peak - at least not longer than 5 minutes - since it didn't properly reach said peak before Primordus woke up, and the increase in magic would have began slowing down at that moment. Presuming that the Elder Dragons all release magic at the same rate, and do not eat magic faster than they release it, then magic would have stopped increasing when Jormag, the third Elder Dragon to wake, woke up - approximately 150 years before GW2.

    If they eat magic faster than release it (entirely possible), then it could have begun to drain once Primordus woke up 50 years after GW1. Given that the DSD woke up shortly after, the Elder Dragons just need to consume at twice the rate for the amount of magic to become a standstill at 200-150 years prior to GW2.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    I wholeheartedly agree: The absence is what irritates me. I have no problem with hexes not available to the players, but the total lack of them everywhere in the game irritates me to no end. The same goes of course for other skills too. If we were supposed to believe they are still around, just not what the players specializes in, that would be fine – but then but at least some characters in the game who use them. The way it looks right now simply implies that they were all forgotten, which makes no sense.

    Livia uses hexes in S3E6 and during the Awakened attacks. E.g., FragilityWhen developers commented on this, they more or less said that they wanted to show that Livia was using archaic forms of magic.

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    GW2 story starts few years after the last dragon awoke. So considering they were all active for few years untinterrupted I'd say as far as "safe" ambient magic is way past it's peak.

    Nitpickery, but the last Elder Dragon woke up during the plot (Mordremoth). And since the Elder Dragons were awake, wouldn't that mean since their awakening the magic had been going down (until we killed one and released all of that ED's magic into the wild, that is).

    my bad, forgot the super-hidden-no-one-expected-inquisition-jungle-dragon :P

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And technically speaking, since what triggered the Elder Dragons waking up was Abaddon's temporarily unleashed magic before Kormir absorbed it, that would indicate that Tyria was never at the peak - at least not longer than 5 minutes - since it didn't properly reach said peak before Primordus woke up, and the increase in magic would have began slowing down at that moment. Presuming that the Elder Dragons all release magic at the same rate, and do not eat magic faster than they release it, then magic would have stopped increasing when Jormag, the third Elder Dragon to wake, woke up - approximately 150 years before GW2.

    fair point, the part of peak was taken from dev's interview fella listed above
    (speaking of nitpickery: just because they woke up prematurely does not rule out local peak - that is if we look at function of ambient magic level over time and go by maths definitions ;) )

    but ok considering timestamp of Jormag awakening my little bit of headcannon theorem..... may still be very busted.
    I mean awakening of two out of 6 is fairly recent, so even if 4th would be over century active by now (which I dunno if it is, I don't really remember time-table of ED awakenings) the 4-2 ratio of consumption-release under those assumption could still not be fast enought to provoke side effect of tyrians not having enought room to pull up their best stunts (like resurrection) and gorr's quote of "alarming rates" was made when 5 out of 6 were documented to be active already

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    If they eat magic faster than release it (entirely possible), then it could have begun to drain once Primordus woke up 50 years after GW1. Given that the DSD woke up shortly after, the Elder Dragons just need to consume at twice the rate for the amount of magic to become a standstill at 200-150 years prior to GW2.

    well the rates may be hard to estimate without knowing how long it took them exacly "last time" to suck up tyria's magic dry (and for how long they have been sleeping in the meanwhile.... and probably some more numbers.

    so............. if we will not make assumption from the earlier block my headcanon theorem could still be viable depending on numbers we are lacking :D
    Thanks Konig ^-^

    (on a side not to that theorem, since alot of magic were "recently" released back into system, outside of volatile unboundness of that magic, there could also be aspect to consider for lack of immediate return of some of these spells, is that the "hows" could be forgoten with generation shift since it ceased to work)

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2018

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    but ok considering timestamp of Jormag awakening my little bit of headcannon theorem..... may still be very busted.
    I mean awakening of two out of 6 is fairly recent, so even if 4th would be over century active by now (which I dunno if it is, I don't really remember time-table of ED awakenings) the 4-2 ratio of consumption-release under those assumption could still not be fast enought to provoke side effect of tyrians not having enought room to pull up their best stunts (like resurrection) and gorr's quote of "alarming rates" was made when 5 out of 6 were documented to be active already

    Zhaitan, the fourth, did wake up about a century prior to GW2. Primordus and Kralkatorrik both woke up about 50 years late, which is why the DSD and Mordremoth woke up so shortly after as opposed to 50 years after like we have between Jormag and Zhaitan (should note we don't know the exact awakening date of the DSD; we originally thought it was 50 years prior to GW2, between Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik, but we got unspoken confirmation in S2 that it woke up between Primordus and Jormag; given the 50 year thing and both Primordus and Kralkatorrik losing their herald champions while asleep, this would suggest the DSD woke up about 50 years prior to Jormag, around the same time as Primordus, but this is still speculative in the end).

    well the rates may be hard to estimate without knowing how long it took them exacly "last time" to suck up tyria's magic dry (and for how long they have been sleeping in the meanwhile.... and probably some more numbers.

    Well, we do have two numbers. The Giganticus Lupicus went extinct around 11,000 years ago (circa 10,000 BE), while we're told dwarven civilization and Glint's memories (she doesn't remember (much) from before she was freed by the Forgotten) being 3,000 years ago (thus circa 1,700 BE). We were told the Forgotten arrived on the world in 1,769 BE, though we also got mursaat records claiming they were around 10,000 years ago. There are suggestions in Edge of Destiny that Kralkatorrik was already asleep at the time Glint was freed from his control, though (but given that she hid the races from the Elder Dragons this is hard to believe).

    Unfortunately, it's hard to tell whether these two are simple contradictions with the writers constantly going back and forth between "10,000 years ago" and "3,000 years ago". But presuming they're not unintended contradictions, this would put the Elder Dragons' time of being awake at roughly 7,000 years, and 3,000 years asleep. This doesn't seem all too likely IMO though (ArenaNet seriously needs to get their facts straight on their last Dragonrise lore dates - was it 10k or 3k years ago? Was Kralk asleep when Glint was freed or not? Etc. etc.)

    But even if we knew exactly when they woke up and went to sleep last time, there were quite a few kerfunkles that could have altered those dates just as much as how early they woke up this time. We have the creation of the bloodstone, which likely put them to sleep early, as well as the gods releasing magic from the Bloodstone (just to revoke it - kinda? - and pull magic out of Zhaitan to empower it), but then the gods splitting the Bloodstone, causing it to leak as a 7th source of magic being added to the world (if it didn't leak beforehand, that is), and then Abaddon's death adding a bunch of magic to the world temporarily, along with major magical cataclysms of Abaddon's defeat (creation of Crystal Desert/Desolation), the Jade Wind, the Searing, the Cataclysm, and the Foefire.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    but ok considering timestamp of Jormag awakening my little bit of headcannon theorem..... may still be very busted.
    I mean awakening of two out of 6 is fairly recent, so even if 4th would be over century active by now (which I dunno if it is, I don't really remember time-table of ED awakenings) the 4-2 ratio of consumption-release under those assumption could still not be fast enought to provoke side effect of tyrians not having enought room to pull up their best stunts (like resurrection) and gorr's quote of "alarming rates" was made when 5 out of 6 were documented to be active already

    Zhaitan, the fourth, did wake up about a century prior to GW2. Primordus and Kralkatorrik both woke up about 50 years late, which is why the DSD and Mordremoth woke up so shortly after as opposed to 50 years after like we have between Jormag and Zhaitan (should note we don't know the exact awakening date of the DSD; we originally thought it was 50 years prior to GW2, between Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik, but we got unspoken confirmation in S2 that it woke up between Primordus and Jormag; given the 50 year thing and both Primordus and Kralkatorrik losing their herald champions while asleep, this would suggest the DSD woke up about 50 years prior to Jormag, around the same time as Primordus, but this is still speculative in the end).

    thanks for the timetable :D
    now depending on consumption rates (and levels and other boring numbers) it could actually make sense for some "chunkier" spells to simply "cease to work" based on my little bit of headcannon theorem ^-^

    we don't have estimation when those thing ceased to work even roughtly, do we?

    well the rates may be hard to estimate without knowing how long it took them exacly "last time" to suck up tyria's magic dry (and for how long they have been sleeping in the meanwhile.... and probably some more numbers.

    Well, we do have two numbers. The Giganticus Lupicus went extinct around 11,000 years ago (circa 10,000 BE), while we're told dwarven civilization and Glint's memories (she doesn't remember (much) from before she was freed by the Forgotten) being 3,000 years ago (thus circa 1,700 BE). We were told the Forgotten arrived on the world in 1,769 BE, though we also got mursaat records claiming they were around 10,000 years ago. There are suggestions in Edge of Destiny that Kralkatorrik was already asleep at the time Glint was freed from his control, though (but given that she hid the races from the Elder Dragons this is hard to believe).

    Unfortunately, it's hard to tell whether these two are simple contradictions with the writers constantly going back and forth between "10,000 years ago" and "3,000 years ago". But presuming they're not unintended contradictions, this would put the Elder Dragons' time of being awake at roughly 7,000 years, and 3,000 years asleep. This doesn't seem all too likely IMO though (ArenaNet seriously needs to get their facts straight on their last Dragonrise lore dates - was it 10k or 3k years ago? Was Kralk asleep when Glint was freed or not? Etc. etc.)

    But even if we knew exactly when they woke up and went to sleep last time, there were quite a few kerfunkles that could have altered those dates just as much as how early they woke up this time. We have the creation of the bloodstone, which likely put them to sleep early, as well as the gods releasing magic from the Bloodstone (just to revoke it - kinda? - and pull magic out of Zhaitan to empower it), but then the gods splitting the Bloodstone, causing it to leak as a 7th source of magic being added to the world (if it didn't leak beforehand, that is), and then Abaddon's death adding a bunch of magic to the world temporarily, along with major magical cataclysms of Abaddon's defeat (creation of Crystal Desert/Desolation), the Jade Wind, the Searing, the Cataclysm, and the Foefire.

    well I suppose it would require numbers from the cycle before dwarves, mursaat and all that mess.....

    at least assuming those guys went down without putting a fight, and assuming nothing woke dragons early during previous cycle....

  • @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    b..b...but livia still uses hexes!

    and livia as some old kitten of 280 years old is a Special case here cuz she indeed lived in the time were hexes were common

  • @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    b..b...but livia still uses hexes!

    and

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    I wholeheartedly agree: The absence is what irritates me. I have no problem with hexes not available to the players, but the total lack of them everywhere in the game irritates me to no end. The same goes of course for other skills too. If we were supposed to believe they are still around, just not what the players specializes in, that would be fine – but then but at least some characters in the game who use them. The way it looks right now simply implies that they were all forgotten, which makes no sense.

    Livia uses hexes in S3E6 and during the Awakened attacks. E.g., FragilityWhen developers commented on this, they more or less said that they wanted to show that Livia was using archaic forms of magic.

    I was quite aware of this, but Livia is a survivor from a time in which Hexes were wildly used. To quote myself:

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    You mentioned the Mesmer: The fact that Livia uses fragility (a Mesmer hex, nice to see so many GW1 survivors picked up Mesmer as their secondary profession, though I am happy they included that mechanic for those few cases in GW2 at all, it is a nice touch) means that this simple, but effective hex, simply got forgotten in these few years? ALL of the hexes did? Just a few condition applications are left from all the former glory of Mesmers and Necromancers? How?! That is such an immense loss of knowledge.

    Another strange thing is this:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And technically speaking, since what triggered the Elder Dragons waking up was Abaddon's temporarily unleashed magic before Kormir absorbed it,

    I still find it weird that this pulse of energy should have reached the dragons, since it happened in the realm of torment and seemingly did not affect the rest of Tyria at all.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2018

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    I still find it weird that this pulse of energy should have reached the dragons, since it happened in the realm of torment and seemingly did not affect the rest of Tyria at all.

    Zhaitan's death didn't affect Tyria in any notable way at all, really. It wouldn't be strange for the temporary release of magic that Primordus sensed to not affect Tyria.

    And keep in mind that, at the moment, Abaddon was trying to combine Tyria and the Realm of Torment together. He had even completed doing so in certain regions such as the Nightfallen Garden, and nearly so with Jahai Bluffs; it's rather unclear if Marga Coast was transformed or not, some dialogue implies that mission takes place in Melonni's mind, while other dialogue implies it happened, but only momentarily due to our actions. It would make sense that, at the time of Nightfall's later half, Tyria and the Realm of Torment were very close.

    And honestly, given that the journal for Nightfall missions states that Abaddon's unleashed power threatened to destroy both the Realm of Torment and Tyria, it wouldn't be surprising that the Elder Dragons got a whiff of powerful distant magic.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And honestly, given that the journal for Nightfall missions states that Abaddon's unleashed power threatened to destroy both the Realm of Torment and Tyria, it wouldn't be surprising that the Elder Dragons got a whiff of powerful distant magic.

    A whiff maybe, but a spike important enough for them to awaken? Compared to a magical blast that was happening right above them, powerful enough to sink Orr? I am not denying that some energy spike may have reached Tyria, but I have my doubts regarding the magnitude being enough to wake up a dragon, especially since Kormir absorbed it fast enough for the player characters to survive unharmed, who stood right next to it.

  • @Nikolai.3648 said:
    A whiff maybe, but a spike important enough for them to awaken? Compared to a magical blast that was happening right above them, powerful enough to sink Orr? I am not denying that some energy spike may have reached Tyria, but I have my doubts regarding the magnitude being enough to wake up a dragon, especially since Kormir absorbed it fast enough for the player characters to survive unharmed, who stood right next to it.

    well a drill into leyline hub seemed sufficient to awake mordy.....

    also note there is a magnitude difference between blasting of a single penisula, and blowing up two realms combined

    but then if we are getting into that sort of things, please also note how they overslept 6 extremely powerfull magical entities walking nearly ontop of one of them.....

    but then if you think about it maybe, it's cumulative thing - like when someone sleeps very deeply single poke won't wake them up, but multiple pokes will. Maybe Abaddons destroction was simply the tipping poke in consecutive chains of pokes?

  • And yet thats the explanation given, it's entirely possible all of Abaddon's magic, divine and otherwise, going wild was even more powerful than what sank Orr in orders of magnitude given what we know about the Gods.

<1
©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.