Thread of complaints to the thief

Hello guys. I'd like to sum up some things about deadeye and its performance.

But before I do this, I want to start from past thief complaints that brought it to the state it is in now. Before PoF a lot of thief complaints were about steal being untelegraphed instant cast ability which brings so much value to the thief. While being personally fine with such skills in game I'd like to mention that steal is required at least 3 traits from 2 traitlines to be somewhat valuable ability that makes impact. Most of thief complaints were "how am i suppose to dodge untelegraphed instant-cast shadowstep ability with 1200 range?", "omg thief noobs can cast it from stealth with 1200 distance and land 15000 backstab damage in one hit", etc.

Now, i'd like to bring up death's mark mechanic, which is:

• 0.5 sec cast
• telegraphed visual+sfx+big circle around the target
• has 1500 range, but don't shadowstep you to the target.

Due to its nature deadeye, gives up instant burst potential fo thief and brings up ramping up damage which increases as thief stays in a fight with marked target. And unlike daredevil, which has a lot of survivability via additional dodge/endurance regeneration/heal-on-dodge and improved dodge mechanics, deadeye mostly is an offensive spec with very little defensive capability — actually only one trait, which brings nothing to the contest mechanic of sPvP — stealth doesn't count towards point contribution. Due to the point above, deadeye defense comes from from either other traitlines or from rifle "stealth-on-dodge" trait, which is strictly limited to other defensive source — endurance.

Like any other "dodge" trait it synergies well with vigor and endurance regeneration mechanics like energy sigil, but unlike any of these it is tied to particular weaponset. Rifle is a ranged option for a class that was ever lacking good ranged options with good single target damage. Keep in mind that thief is class that has low-base hp pool and close to no passive defenses. Now strictly to the point:

• Deadeye defenses come from using defensive mechanic — dodge — with a specific weaponset.

• Rifle offenses are highly telegraphed cast-time skills with SFX and travel-time.

• DJ ( source of complaints) isn't a "spammable" skill and actually require using resources, can be LoS'ed with even terrain and "obstructed".

• To do actually damage DJ should be casted on "marked" target. Read the points about being "marked" above.

• Stealth-on-dodge (source of complaints) has its counterplays due to game-mechanics of skill queue.

• Rifle "firepower" has been shaved for like 30% with the recent nerfs.

• Berserker deadeye (source of tears) is unviable in any competitive scenario.

• All of you deadeye complainers, should really l2p and just dodge.

Cheers!

I think Stealth on Dodge is a big part of the complaints rather than its very source.Pretty sure people are unhappy about DE's Stealth capabilities in general, especially when people figured out Shadow Arts fits DE a lot even in sPvP and are now stacking great amounts of Stealth, topped off with Shadow Meld's capability to remove Reveal.

Can I have some links to all these steal complaints please? I could use a good laugh...

Also I agree with your post as I don't want dead eye nerfed again, now running Maleficent Seven trait so I can still pop off 4-5 rounds of TRB....

@dDuff.3860 said:

Climbing legendary with deadeye ;)

How goes the climb by the way?

I mean if you’ve been in games with DE, most of the time you have a player that simply can not deal with the one shot capability of deadeye (which isn’t surprising.)

So another player comes to help that player to not get farmed. So the deadeye just dodge stealth’s the second he becomes pressured and it’s 2 or even sometimes 3 people trying to just attack the air in hopes of killing the thief. It’s by far the stupidest gameplay I’ve ever seen and it’s annoying because the deadeyes in question are usually not even that good, they just are hard to kill because of this mechanic.

It should simply be changed or removed.

@sephiroth.4217 said:Can I have some links to all these steal complaints please? I could use a good laugh...

Also I agree with your post as I don't want dead eye nerfed again, now running Maleficent Seven trait so I can still pop off 4-5 rounds of TRB....

@dDuff.3860 said:

Climbing legendary with deadeye ;)

I have been 1754, decayed.

@dDuff.3860 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:Can I have some links to all these steal complaints please? I could use a good laugh...

Also I agree with your post as I don't want dead eye nerfed again, now running Maleficent Seven trait so I can still pop off 4-5 rounds of TRB....

@dDuff.3860 said:

Climbing legendary with deadeye ;)

Ouch, gotta love that decay :sweat_smile:

I am actually fine with the damage, the burst and even the stealth on dodge - even though it is a cheap way of stealth, but well, looking at mesmer torch... anyhow!

My biggest issue is with the elite. Getting rid of reveal, with is the counterplay against stealth, makes it very hard to punish DE. That's what I believe should be looked at and adjusted - what do you guys think? Would there be a way to change it without destroying DE completely?

we should learn to play and just dodge? ok, if my dodge gives me stealth as well i'm in :)

I'm a Rev main so I never see DE as something OP - my only complaint is that it's really not fun playing hide and seek, LoS Wars with DE. I wouldn't mind a nerf to DE's stealth and a buff to personal defense elsewhere to make up for it, just so that people don't have to play hide and seek every time they see a DE.

The stealth is too much. I thought we were moving toward less stealth in the game over the years and then DE happens and we have a build with more stealth then any other before. It is annoying and not fun to play against at all. They should be looking to minimize game elements like that not increase them.

I agree the stealth is really annoying. Especially if they are playing with shadowstep or shadow trap. They can fly around the place invisible and simply fire at you dodge port fire at you dodge port and you are dead. It is really not fun to play agains that. Also i dont like DE beacuse they split Thieves in half. We now have classic thieves and DD and then there are DE's which everyone hates and thieves and DD's have to take the hate with them. And ppl constantly mix us together. When pof was coming out i was hoping for some nice elite for thief. then they announced DE. Since the very first moment i knew that is going to be horrible issue. And i really dont like it.

I hope I do not understand this fundamentally wrong, but moving faster on the map from A to B, and most of all striving to shine through positioning, makes up a major part of the gameplay. By camouflage we criticize and that makes it. Also, we can quickly and quite safely pick up or finish teammates, where you have to be careful as a bersi;), depending on the trait reduces the damage significantly up to 58% or heals instead agitated states.Anet should do us more harm than bersi, because the risk / use game is already hardcore.

@ mimimimimimi

Stealth is gameplay, there are so many unfair things from my perspective with which I have to come clear,) so I can not understand the players, my Op he can do this very well ... I hear that forever as thief ..

@Megametzler.5729 said:I am actually fine with the damage, the burst and even the stealth on dodge - even though it is a cheap way of stealth, but well, looking at mesmer torch... anyhow!

My biggest issue is with the elite. Getting rid of reveal, with is the counterplay against stealth, makes it very hard to punish DE. That's what I believe should be looked at and adjusted - what do you guys think? Would there be a way to change it without destroying DE completely?

Nope. Skills giving reveal got buffs in the recent patches(mosty vulnerability), and DE offense is drasictly toned down. DE can't oneshot anymore(the berserker amulet oneshot build is useless in actual sPvP), and with multiple attempts to poke at its target, you also get multiple windows to jump it. A 6 second reveal with a vulnstack on top is a death sentence for the DE, unless it has Shadow Meld on cooldown(which by the way is still interruptable).

Edit: My point is, it might have been a good choice with past iterations, with damage toned down this much it's out of the question if you want to keep rifle DE viable.

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:I am actually fine with the damage, the burst and even the stealth on dodge - even though it is a cheap way of stealth, but well, looking at mesmer torch... anyhow!

My biggest issue is with the elite. Getting rid of reveal, with is

the

counterplay against stealth, makes it very hard to punish DE. That's what I believe should be looked at and adjusted - what do you guys think? Would there be a way to change it without destroying DE completely?

But that is how it should be. A high damage, +1 burst build should succeed with the burst - or disengage or die. Especially when being able to burst from range. That's how it used to be however, yes, I know about the powercreep.

Restealth with reveal-DE, several teleport or dodge-mirage... no to mention most of the meta builds like holo and spellbreaker have quite good +1 capabilities themselves at stupid allrounders... that is really unhealthy for build diversity, but yes, it is a bigger issue and not only on this ability. Nontheless, I want it gone. Together with a lot of other nerfs to other classes. :wink:

€: lol, thread has been moved. WvW'ers and PvE guys inc! This used to be about PVP! :lol:

DE damage is fine and isn't the source of complaints. Almost every build has a counter to mitigate the opening burst from stealth if they're paying attention. The problem comes when the Thief who fails his opener can just reset the fight and then try again in 4 seconds. The Thief can do this forever, and that's the problem. They will never run out of stealth if they know how to stack it correctly which means they can reset and reappear whenever they want.

I only have so many defensive's to counter the opening burst. The problem lies with DE's ability to reset the fight until they get a favourable opening or until luck is on their side. This problem is only amplified in WvW where the Thief has no duties or specific rolls to weigh them down like capping points to win a spvp match.

To add further to this in WvW you can't always LoS. WvW has some very wide open areas that pretty much everyone walks through. I can't see DE's coming and I'm not going to actively move from cover to cover like I'm playing a hardcore military simulator.

DE is the most anti-fun build/spec to play against. The DE dances around you, in and out of stealth, and your only options are to run away (they'll follow you anyway) or hope that you can catch them before they disappear again.

The best part is that a large portion of these DE players are terrible at anything Thief related beyond stacking stealth and their opening combos. The build is just easy to use and attracts players who're looking just for that: Low risk - High reward gameplay.

@meepeY.2867 said:This problem is only amplified in WvW where the Thief has no duties or specific rolls to weigh them down like capping points to win a spvp match.

To add further to this in WvW you can't always LoS. WvW has some very wide open areas that pretty much everyone walks through. I can't see DE's coming and I'm not going to actively move from cover to cover like I'm playing a hardcore military simulator.

To be fair, you have no duties to fight the Thief in WvW, and a stealth-centric DE that can permastealth will not be able to give chase to anything other than a scourge or core necro.

@Turk.5460 said:To be fair, you have no duties to fight the Thief in WvW, and a stealth-centric DE that can permastealth will not be able to give chase to anything other than a scourge or core necro.

True but WvW BLs/EB aren't that large and it's not hard to find out where people are going, they'll follow you unless someone more easier to kill crosses their path.

@Turk.5460 said:

@meepeY.2867 said:This problem is only amplified in WvW where the Thief has no duties or specific rolls to weigh them down like capping points to win a spvp match.

To add further to this in WvW you can't always LoS. WvW has some very wide open areas that pretty much everyone walks through. I can't see DE's coming and I'm not going to actively move from cover to cover like I'm playing a hardcore military simulator.

Deadeye with rifle+trickery have enough mobility to chase thief with Unhindered combatant and shortbow. It may not outrun it, but definitely can chase it from close to far without losing a cap on both points.

@meepeY.2867 said:

@Turk.5460 said:To be fair, you have no duties to fight the Thief in WvW, and a stealth-centric DE that can permastealth will not be able to give chase to anything other than a scourge or core necro.

In fairness, that's the PoF trailer design for deadeye. The deadeye tracks you and follows you and you are basically dead as a result.

They implemented that fine. They made it too easy to reset that's the only problem. Old stealth on rifle 5 was at least locked by kneeling and by charges.

They just need to make kneel be the stealth again.

I actually think Deadeye is basically fine as-is. As the OP says, DJ is HUGELY telegraphed and can be dodged without issue or blocked with los or just with a pet wandering in front of the shot. The concept of minions is practically a hard-counter to the skill. I would agree that being able to remove reveal hurts counterplay a bit, but Its honestly INFINITELY less frustrating than fighting a mesmer.

@dDuff.3860 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@meepeY.2867 said:This problem is only amplified in WvW where the Thief has no duties or specific rolls to weigh them down like capping points to win a spvp match.

To add further to this in WvW you can't always LoS. WvW has some very wide open areas that pretty much everyone walks through. I can't see DE's coming and I'm not going to actively move from cover to cover like I'm playing a hardcore military simulator.

Fantastic, I don't care about sPvP, and both posts you quoted were talking about WvW where Trickery isn't taken by the permastealth DE's.

@dDuff.3860 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@meepeY.2867 said:This problem is only amplified in WvW where the Thief has no duties or specific rolls to weigh them down like capping points to win a spvp match.

To add further to this in WvW you can't always LoS. WvW has some very wide open areas that pretty much everyone walks through. I can't see DE's coming and I'm not going to actively move from cover to cover like I'm playing a hardcore military simulator.

There's no way a deadeye can catch up to a dd. U can momentarily catch up using skill 4 to dodge forward. But u would lose all your intiative and will unable to burst. I regularly duo in wvw and with the traits you list and the speed burst from shadow arts.

No class can catch up to a a DD with unhindered combatant and triple dodge. It's why DD is the kind of decap in pvp and you never ever see a deadeye play decap. Seriously this is absolute false information.

@TorQ.7041 said:

@dDuff.3860 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@meepeY.2867 said:This problem is only amplified in WvW where the Thief has no duties or specific rolls to weigh them down like capping points to win a spvp match.

To add further to this in WvW you can't always LoS. WvW has some very wide open areas that pretty much everyone walks through. I can't see DE's coming and I'm not going to actively move from cover to cover like I'm playing a hardcore military simulator.

If you don't see deadeye decapping (srsly utilizing mobility and stealth roaming) as well as if you don't see deadeye swapping weaponsets in combat you can count this deadeye as bad.Stealth+mobility makes is even easier to decap.Also, I chased a couple of daredevils on deadeye. As being said above running from close to far using their dodges, shortbow and shadowstep they weren't able to decap things. So, your information contradicts with my experience and is wrong.

@dDuff.3860 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@dDuff.3860 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@meepeY.2867 said:This problem is only amplified in WvW where the Thief has no duties or specific rolls to weigh them down like capping points to win a spvp match.

To add further to this in WvW you can't always LoS. WvW has some very wide open areas that pretty much everyone walks through. I can't see DE's coming and I'm not going to actively move from cover to cover like I'm playing a hardcore military simulator.

Lol. Ok man. There is literally zero deadeyes playing decap on gold and platin the respect that you decap and run from node to node. I don't know what do you ve been chasing on deadeye. But even on paper it would be impossible. If you list the traits and duration. Over a span of a minute. No DE can catch up to a DD.

The only mobility a DE has is skill 4. That alone runs out. I don't know where you magically get swiftness from because no deadeye takes acrobatics. Post a video of it and I ll believe you.

If you look on the four literally every post mentions. The way to do with a deadeye is to run if u can't win because zero chasing potential but hey, if you some how have that magical ability to gain swiftness and have initiatives to shoot, that's good for you.

@TorQ.7041 said:

@dDuff.3860 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@dDuff.3860 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@meepeY.2867 said:This problem is only amplified in WvW where the Thief has no duties or specific rolls to weigh them down like capping points to win a spvp match.

To add further to this in WvW you can't always LoS. WvW has some very wide open areas that pretty much everyone walks through. I can't see DE's coming and I'm not going to actively move from cover to cover like I'm playing a hardcore military simulator.

You're chasing daredevil as a deadeye.It means he can't steal on you (because he'll be behind in the race). It means he has no vigor to spam dodges with.Your mark is 1500 distance, your rifle#2 hits at 900 distance putting cripple of enemy and giving you swiftness. Cleansing cripple with dodge puts an exhausted debuff on daredevil, which limits its ability to build distance.With mercy skill (which i call baseline for any deadeye) you have more initiative which gives you opportunity to catch up the daredevil with mobility weapon skills.. Also your chasing mobility comes from sword#2 (if you're using sword) and heartseeker/shadowshot if you're using dagger.

I'm not comparing here pure race for 1 min in an open, where daredevil has its advantage. But on actual sPvP map daredevil can't outrun deadeye from close to far/mid to close so much that it decapping fully capped point. And that is from my perspective, I'm able to detarget thief and make a double #4 to him -> cast mark -> rifle #2 and stealth.If you're not able to do so doesn't mean deadeye can't do so to daredevil.

Also for the part about decaps, I'm not really into how other deadeyes playing (I see most of them never use weaponswap), BUT I see no reason not to capitalize on tools that deadeye has, one of which is using easy stealth access to rotate on map unnoticed. This leads to a sick decaps, boss steals and ganks even in organized high-tier matches.

And if I can do so, why would no one can not?