An example of how to change specific builds without affecting others — Guild Wars 2 Forums

An example of how to change specific builds without affecting others

Poelala.2830Poelala.2830 Member ✭✭✭

How core guardian should be nerfed without nerfing DH or Firebrand:
Righteous Instincts now grants 30% critical chance increase, lowered from 50%.
This now makes it so, with Valkyrie and with Retaliation and Fury, you have a 55% critical hit chance, lowering the number of critical hits you make by 20%, thus decreasing overall damage during bursts by roughly 25%. If guardians on mass swap to marauder instead of Valkyrie, they will have -6.32% power damage, and -22.67% critical damage. This will make it so that while you are bursting, with fury and retaliation, you do ~18% less damage than before. This does not affect the meta DH build. This does not affect the meta Menders Firebrand build.

How Deadeye should be nerfed without hurting Core Thief or Daredevil:
Silent Scope no longer grants stealth while rolling with Rifle. Shadow Meld no longer removes revealed. Deadeye's mark now needs to hit the target to trigger any on-hit traits.
No explanation needed.

How Holosmith should be nerfed without hurting Scrapper or Core Engineer:
Corona burst's damage is lowered by 20%. Holographic Shockwave's radius is lowered from 600 to 450. This no longer acts as a blast finisher. The knockdown duration from this skill is decreased by 50%.

How Elementalist and Mesmer should be changed act quite differently because the issue is the core specializations. Multiple core mesmer traits are very strong but multiple core Elementalist traits are very weak. The changes must happen to these to sufficiently change problematic builds (or in Elementalist's case, a lack of any strong builds whatsoever).

Comments

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2018

    Your idea on guard would hurt my DH build as my DH relies on that trait, so does my Hybrid FB... Your proposal would mean I would have to scrap about 4 of my Guardian builds..

    As for Elementalist... The traits are actually really good BUT the whole skill set and coefficients for them heavily relied on Healing Power hence why we are forced into healing power ammies, if our heals would be effective using a Paladins or Marauders (0 healing power) then this would open up a lot of builds but it doesn't so we're forced into a very strict selection of Amulets, it must have Healing Power, Vitality and Power..... This limits the Amulet choices down to 1 maybe 2, then that Amulet dictates the build the Ele is going to use.

    Have you seen Chaiths idea for Holo? It was actually pretty decent idea from a Holo main...

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Nerfing this skill to the ground, from a Holo perspective, would hardly impact the class. I perform very well on Holo and highly limit my usage of this ability in order to maximize heat usage towards Corona Burst, Holo Leap, and auto attacks.

    It's a 70IQ skill when using it in people's faces, yet many Holos do this on cooldown. The only time where its use is strategic is when you pop it behind a wall/ledge when your opponent thinks they're safe. This is only fun for the Holo. Obviously it needs more strategy when using it - that isn't cheap feeling for the victim.

    It's Engineer Jade Winds. Highly spammable, hits everyone through Z axis but why would you spam it? I'd be in favor of totally reworking the skill but that's unlikely.

    It should not hit through Z axis or in a wide radius, but it should be much more high potential.

    My suggestion:

    Holographic Shockwave:

    • This ability's shockwave affects foes only at the Z-axis of the user.
    • This ability's radius is reduced from 600 to 240.
    • Damage increased significantly. Like, two, to two and a half times more.

    I doubt Anet will implement it or listen or act on it but this is actually a decent idea...

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So just remove DE from any competitive game mode....mmkay lol

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭

    You could do a lot of balancing by creating a trait budget system which assigns a numerical benefit to each trait. Then look at the total value of trait lines - they should all be roughly equal regardless of which traits you pick in the line. It would quickly become evident that Righteous Instincts and Monk's Focus are way over budget. It would also help identify awful traits before they get released.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    You could do a lot of balancing by creating a trait budget system which assigns a numerical benefit to each trait. Then look at the total value of trait lines - they should all be roughly equal regardless of which traits you pick in the line. It would quickly become evident that Righteous Instincts and Monk's Focus are way over budget. It would also help identify awful traits before they get released.

    so basically like the old trait system where you could pick 0/10/0/30/30?

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Derm.4932Derm.4932 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm going to be one salty DH if they nerf it because of Core Guard, but unfortunately knowing the types of balance decisions that are made, I would not be surprised

  • Poelala.2830Poelala.2830 Member ✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Your idea on guard would hurt my DH build as my DH relies on that trait, so does my Hybrid FB... Your proposal would mean I would have to scrap about 4 of my Guardian builds..

    As for Elementalist... The traits are actually really good BUT the whole skill set and coefficients for them heavily relied on Healing Power hence why we are forced into healing power ammies, if our heals would be effective using a Paladins or Marauders (0 healing power) then this would open up a lot of builds but it doesn't so we're forced into a very strict selection of Amulets, it must have Healing Power, Vitality and Power..... This limits the Amulet choices down to 1 maybe 2, then that Amulet dictates the build the Ele is going to use.

    Have you seen Chaiths idea for Holo? It was actually pretty decent idea from a Holo main...

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Nerfing this skill to the ground, from a Holo perspective, would hardly impact the class. I perform very well on Holo and highly limit my usage of this ability in order to maximize heat usage towards Corona Burst, Holo Leap, and auto attacks.

    It's a 70IQ skill when using it in people's faces, yet many Holos do this on cooldown. The only time where its use is strategic is when you pop it behind a wall/ledge when your opponent thinks they're safe. This is only fun for the Holo. Obviously it needs more strategy when using it - that isn't cheap feeling for the victim.

    It's Engineer Jade Winds. Highly spammable, hits everyone through Z axis but why would you spam it? I'd be in favor of totally reworking the skill but that's unlikely.

    It should not hit through Z axis or in a wide radius, but it should be much more high potential.

    My suggestion:

    Holographic Shockwave:

    • This ability's shockwave affects foes only at the Z-axis of the user.
    • This ability's radius is reduced from 600 to 240.
    • Damage increased significantly. Like, two, to two and a half times more.

    I doubt Anet will implement it or listen or act on it but this is actually a decent idea...

    Seeing as any DH build with Retribution is not a viable DH build in any high ranked play, I don't think hurting something that already doesn't exist would actually hurt it. Also, which Elementalist traits are good? Outside of air and water and arcane, which are actually decent? Almost none.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2018

    @Poelala.2830 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Your idea on guard would hurt my DH build as my DH relies on that trait, so does my Hybrid FB... Your proposal would mean I would have to scrap about 4 of my Guardian builds..

    As for Elementalist... The traits are actually really good BUT the whole skill set and coefficients for them heavily relied on Healing Power hence why we are forced into healing power ammies, if our heals would be effective using a Paladins or Marauders (0 healing power) then this would open up a lot of builds but it doesn't so we're forced into a very strict selection of Amulets, it must have Healing Power, Vitality and Power..... This limits the Amulet choices down to 1 maybe 2, then that Amulet dictates the build the Ele is going to use.

    Have you seen Chaiths idea for Holo? It was actually pretty decent idea from a Holo main...

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Nerfing this skill to the ground, from a Holo perspective, would hardly impact the class. I perform very well on Holo and highly limit my usage of this ability in order to maximize heat usage towards Corona Burst, Holo Leap, and auto attacks.

    It's a 70IQ skill when using it in people's faces, yet many Holos do this on cooldown. The only time where its use is strategic is when you pop it behind a wall/ledge when your opponent thinks they're safe. This is only fun for the Holo. Obviously it needs more strategy when using it - that isn't cheap feeling for the victim.

    It's Engineer Jade Winds. Highly spammable, hits everyone through Z axis but why would you spam it? I'd be in favor of totally reworking the skill but that's unlikely.

    It should not hit through Z axis or in a wide radius, but it should be much more high potential.

    My suggestion:

    Holographic Shockwave:

    • This ability's shockwave affects foes only at the Z-axis of the user.
    • This ability's radius is reduced from 600 to 240.
    • Damage increased significantly. Like, two, to two and a half times more.

    I doubt Anet will implement it or listen or act on it but this is actually a decent idea...

    Seeing as any DH build with Retribution is not a viable DH build in any high ranked play, I don't think hurting something that already doesn't exist would actually hurt it. Also, which Elementalist traits are good? Outside of air and water and arcane, which are actually decent? Almost none.

    I won't argue personal opinions about Elementalist but what is "High Ranked Play" and how many people are in this bracket? I know it holds up well in Gold against the Reaper Influx so obviously this is platinum or higher that doesn't see it? if that's the case, wouldn't DH need a buff or access to a traits such as, I dunno, Retribution and Righteous Instincts?

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Poelala.2830Poelala.2830 Member ✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Poelala.2830 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Your idea on guard would hurt my DH build as my DH relies on that trait, so does my Hybrid FB... Your proposal would mean I would have to scrap about 4 of my Guardian builds..

    As for Elementalist... The traits are actually really good BUT the whole skill set and coefficients for them heavily relied on Healing Power hence why we are forced into healing power ammies, if our heals would be effective using a Paladins or Marauders (0 healing power) then this would open up a lot of builds but it doesn't so we're forced into a very strict selection of Amulets, it must have Healing Power, Vitality and Power..... This limits the Amulet choices down to 1 maybe 2, then that Amulet dictates the build the Ele is going to use.

    Have you seen Chaiths idea for Holo? It was actually pretty decent idea from a Holo main...

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Nerfing this skill to the ground, from a Holo perspective, would hardly impact the class. I perform very well on Holo and highly limit my usage of this ability in order to maximize heat usage towards Corona Burst, Holo Leap, and auto attacks.

    It's a 70IQ skill when using it in people's faces, yet many Holos do this on cooldown. The only time where its use is strategic is when you pop it behind a wall/ledge when your opponent thinks they're safe. This is only fun for the Holo. Obviously it needs more strategy when using it - that isn't cheap feeling for the victim.

    It's Engineer Jade Winds. Highly spammable, hits everyone through Z axis but why would you spam it? I'd be in favor of totally reworking the skill but that's unlikely.

    It should not hit through Z axis or in a wide radius, but it should be much more high potential.

    My suggestion:

    Holographic Shockwave:

    • This ability's shockwave affects foes only at the Z-axis of the user.
    • This ability's radius is reduced from 600 to 240.
    • Damage increased significantly. Like, two, to two and a half times more.

    I doubt Anet will implement it or listen or act on it but this is actually a decent idea...

    Seeing as any DH build with Retribution is not a viable DH build in any high ranked play, I don't think hurting something that already doesn't exist would actually hurt it. Also, which Elementalist traits are good? Outside of air and water and arcane, which are actually decent? Almost none.

    I won't argue personal opinions about Elementalist but what is "High Ranked Play" and how many people are in this bracket? I know it holds up well in Gold against the Reaper Influx so obviously this is platinum or higher that doesn't see it? if that's the case, wouldn't DH need a buff or access to a traits such as, I dunno, Retribution and Righteous Instincts?

    With a rating of 1816, all I see when I enter ranked is "high ranked play". And no, there shouldn't be buffs just so DH can use any traits. When an elite spec comes with new and interesting mechanics, just as DH does, this prioritizes certain traits over others. And the mechanics for DH are incompatible with traits in retribution. Basing balance off of gold tier play is ridiculous because I've seen gold tier games and the build diversity there is great because there are no good players there to push the bad builds out.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Poelala.2830 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Poelala.2830 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Your idea on guard would hurt my DH build as my DH relies on that trait, so does my Hybrid FB... Your proposal would mean I would have to scrap about 4 of my Guardian builds..

    As for Elementalist... The traits are actually really good BUT the whole skill set and coefficients for them heavily relied on Healing Power hence why we are forced into healing power ammies, if our heals would be effective using a Paladins or Marauders (0 healing power) then this would open up a lot of builds but it doesn't so we're forced into a very strict selection of Amulets, it must have Healing Power, Vitality and Power..... This limits the Amulet choices down to 1 maybe 2, then that Amulet dictates the build the Ele is going to use.

    Have you seen Chaiths idea for Holo? It was actually pretty decent idea from a Holo main...

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Nerfing this skill to the ground, from a Holo perspective, would hardly impact the class. I perform very well on Holo and highly limit my usage of this ability in order to maximize heat usage towards Corona Burst, Holo Leap, and auto attacks.

    It's a 70IQ skill when using it in people's faces, yet many Holos do this on cooldown. The only time where its use is strategic is when you pop it behind a wall/ledge when your opponent thinks they're safe. This is only fun for the Holo. Obviously it needs more strategy when using it - that isn't cheap feeling for the victim.

    It's Engineer Jade Winds. Highly spammable, hits everyone through Z axis but why would you spam it? I'd be in favor of totally reworking the skill but that's unlikely.

    It should not hit through Z axis or in a wide radius, but it should be much more high potential.

    My suggestion:

    Holographic Shockwave:

    • This ability's shockwave affects foes only at the Z-axis of the user.
    • This ability's radius is reduced from 600 to 240.
    • Damage increased significantly. Like, two, to two and a half times more.

    I doubt Anet will implement it or listen or act on it but this is actually a decent idea...

    Seeing as any DH build with Retribution is not a viable DH build in any high ranked play, I don't think hurting something that already doesn't exist would actually hurt it. Also, which Elementalist traits are good? Outside of air and water and arcane, which are actually decent? Almost none.

    I won't argue personal opinions about Elementalist but what is "High Ranked Play" and how many people are in this bracket? I know it holds up well in Gold against the Reaper Influx so obviously this is platinum or higher that doesn't see it? if that's the case, wouldn't DH need a buff or access to a traits such as, I dunno, Retribution and Righteous Instincts?

    With a rating of 1816, all I see when I enter ranked is "high ranked play". And no, there shouldn't be buffs just so DH can use any traits. When an elite spec comes with new and interesting mechanics, just as DH does, this prioritizes certain traits over others. And the mechanics for DH are incompatible with traits in retribution. Basing balance off of gold tier play is ridiculous because I've seen gold tier games and the build diversity there is great because there are no good players there to push the bad builds out.

    Exactly my point, you don't see it up where you are because it's not as strong as your meta builds, they're fine already.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    You could do a lot of balancing by creating a trait budget system which assigns a numerical benefit to each trait. Then look at the total value of trait lines - they should all be roughly equal regardless of which traits you pick in the line. It would quickly become evident that Righteous Instincts and Monk's Focus are way over budget. It would also help identify awful traits before they get released.

    so basically like the old trait system where you could pick 0/10/0/30/30?

    What? No. How did you arrive at that conclusion? I'm saying assign scores to what a trait does, e.g. +1 might (to self) for 5s is worth 1 point, and +1 vulnerability for 5s is worth 1 point. But 5s of Fury is worth 2 points since it's a stronger boon. Then you need to compare proc rate and static, so use a multiplier, e.g. 1 proc per minute (ppm) is x1, so 2 ppm would be x2.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    You could do a lot of balancing by creating a trait budget system which assigns a numerical benefit to each trait. Then look at the total value of trait lines - they should all be roughly equal regardless of which traits you pick in the line. It would quickly become evident that Righteous Instincts and Monk's Focus are way over budget. It would also help identify awful traits before they get released.

    so basically like the old trait system where you could pick 0/10/0/30/30?

    What? No. How did you arrive at that conclusion?

    because you said

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    You could do a lot of balancing by creating a trait budget system which assigns a numerical benefit to each trait. Then look at the total value of trait lines - they should all be roughly equal regardless of which traits you pick in the line.

    Old trait system was exactly that, budget system of numerical benefit with a total of 70 points and after investing all your points they would always have a total of 70 points invested regardless of what traits you pick in the line...

    Anyway, my bad

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I liked the old trait system. I really miss it.

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Poelala.2830 said:
    How core guardian should be nerfed without nerfing DH or Firebrand:
    Righteous Instincts now grants 30% critical chance increase, lowered from 50%.
    This now makes it so, with Valkyrie and with Retaliation and Fury, you have a 55% critical hit chance, lowering the number of critical hits you make by 20%, thus decreasing overall damage during bursts by roughly 25%. If guardians on mass swap to marauder instead of Valkyrie, they will have -6.32% power damage, and -22.67% critical damage. This will make it so that while you are bursting, with fury and retaliation, you do ~18% less damage than before. This does not affect the meta DH build. This does not affect the meta Menders Firebrand build.

    This would hurt harrier's firebrand builds which are the only offence-based builds left involving firebrand. I think a better first step would be a change suggested by Vallun a few months ago: heavily nerf the damage on glacial heart, decrease icd to 5 seconds, keep the chill at 3 seconds, and make it 100% chance to proc on crit. This would shift the focus away from burst and more towards soft CC which helps you stay on your opponents while playing hammer. Glacial heart doesn't do all that much damage to begin with though so perhaps some further nerfs are needed. Maybe Righteous Instincts should grant 40% instead of the 30% you suggested? A 25% decrease to bursts is arguably too much.

    How Deadeye should be nerfed without hurting Core Thief or Daredevil:
    Silent Scope no longer grants stealth while rolling with Rifle. Shadow Meld no longer removes revealed. Deadeye's mark now needs to hit the target to trigger any on-hit traits.
    No explanation needed.

    I like these changes but I would be more conservative since all three of these taken together would hurt DEs very badly. First, silent scope should just have a moderate icd, like 3 or 5 seconds. Next, since DEs depend on stealth so much, I think it's fair they have a way to remove revealed, however being able to remove it twice is OP, so I think only the final charge of Shadow Meld should remove revealed (and also reduce the icd of Shadow Meld to 0-1 seconds so they can blow both charges quickly if they need to remove revealed). I like your last change but I thought that's how it works currently?

    How Holosmith should be nerfed without hurting Scrapper or Core Engineer:
    Corona burst's damage is lowered by 20%. Holographic Shockwave's radius is lowered from 600 to 450. This no longer acts as a blast finisher. The knockdown duration from this skill is decreased by 50%.

    Also, the vertical hitbox of Holographic Shockwave should be lowered from 1800 to 450.

  • Virelion.4128Virelion.4128 Member ✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    You could do a lot of balancing by creating a trait budget system which assigns a numerical benefit to each trait. Then look at the total value of trait lines - they should all be roughly equal regardless of which traits you pick in the line. It would quickly become evident that Righteous Instincts and Monk's Focus are way over budget. It would also help identify awful traits before they get released.

    so basically like the old trait system where you could pick 0/10/0/30/30?

    What? No. How did you arrive at that conclusion?

    because you said

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    You could do a lot of balancing by creating a trait budget system which assigns a numerical benefit to each trait. Then look at the total value of trait lines - they should all be roughly equal regardless of which traits you pick in the line.

    Old trait system was exactly that, budget system of numerical benefit with a total of 70 points and after investing all your points they would always have a total of 70 points invested regardless of what traits you pick in the line...

    Anyway, my bad

    The old trait system was nothing like Exedore suggested. He wanted to assign numerical values to boons, mechanics, raw damage the way that you can easly estimate potential value of the skill.

    It probably would need to be done to all utilities and weapons to keep system going.

  • Poelala.2830Poelala.2830 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    So just remove DE from any competitive game mode....mmkay lol

    Yep. Sounds great to me.

  • I wouldnt call these ideas "balance" in the least your just taking a nerf bat to meta builds. Sure you changed them with out affecting other specs but its not balancing them

    Idk honestly why you wanna nerf core guards build its dependent on retaliation and meditation to output its burst its longest retaliation is from rightious heart at 10s boon stripping is a threat to the entire build so to just nerf the trait like that as you stated makes no sense. However, we could add on to this not make an out right nerf as you want such as adding increase to retaliation uptime with rightious insight by 25-33%. Or give other guardians skills access to retaliation as an option personally dont think core guard is really an issue as other classes are atm.

    Your DE nerfs are just out of hand. Im not a fan for the class either but those arent even close to aceptable changes.

    Id say change no scope to:
    Steal skills now grant stealth regardless of malice stacks and remove the rifle restriction. Or as someone else said add a 3-5 second icd into the skill

    As for shadow meld removing the ammo functionality of the skill would make it fine they need a counter play to reveal but not the ability to make it irrelevant

    As for holo
    Carona burst: merge the 2 hits into just 1 and ajust the dmg as such, if needed tone it down 10%

    Holographic shockwave:
    Lower the radius on it to 300 make it have a collision factor with walls and pillars and ajust it so it only affects the Z axis the user is on also remove the 100% crit rate on it

    Lastly elixir U: reduce the quickness it gives by 2-3 sec
    Seen some people say revert this change but and thats fine to but maybe just reducing it will be a good middle ground

    As for ele and mes i dont know enough to make calls on there kits, ele i know need alot of overhauling to make them relevent.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virelion.4128 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    You could do a lot of balancing by creating a trait budget system which assigns a numerical benefit to each trait. Then look at the total value of trait lines - they should all be roughly equal regardless of which traits you pick in the line. It would quickly become evident that Righteous Instincts and Monk's Focus are way over budget. It would also help identify awful traits before they get released.

    so basically like the old trait system where you could pick 0/10/0/30/30?

    What? No. How did you arrive at that conclusion?

    because you said

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    You could do a lot of balancing by creating a trait budget system which assigns a numerical benefit to each trait. Then look at the total value of trait lines - they should all be roughly equal regardless of which traits you pick in the line.

    Old trait system was exactly that, budget system of numerical benefit with a total of 70 points and after investing all your points they would always have a total of 70 points invested regardless of what traits you pick in the line...

    Anyway, my bad

    The old trait system was nothing like Exedore suggested. He wanted to assign numerical values to boons, mechanics, raw damage the way that you can easly estimate potential value of the skill.

    It probably would need to be done to all utilities and weapons to keep system going.

    Yea we already cleared that up, when he said traits I thought he actually meant traits.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

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