Remove Alacrity, Give All Skills 33% Reduction in PvE?

If I'm being honest, having the 33% CDR is /really nice/. It's very fun, and it's fundamental to Raiding. And that's a problem. It shouldn't be fundamental to Raiding. It shouldn't be fundamental to /anything/. It was a bad thing to put in a game that's balanced around classes and skills that aren't on par with eachother, and it's made even worse by having Chrono run all the time with everyone. Mind you, they're also there because of the other boons they can upkeep, but still, why 33% CDR? That seems like a bit much to be slapping on to a single class, giving it the "You must bring this with you, otherwise you'll just end up not doing so great or sub-par." sticker.

Its 20% cdr. And I dont understand why support chrono is bad design. You dont need chrono to complete raids.

@Kalthea.4326 said:why 33% CDR? That seems like a bit much

come on can't you people at least read the wiki page and get the numbers right if your going to make suggestions for absolutely gigantic changes? That number is for chronos with a specific trait only. This is seriously the second time this month someone has demanded the removal of alacrity without even knowing the correct numbers.

@thrag.9740 said:

@Kalthea.4326 said:why 33% CDR? That seems like a bit much

Actually, I just posed the question. Haven't really demanded anything.

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Its 20% cdr. And I dont understand why support chrono is bad design. You dont need chrono to complete raids.

Thank you for the correction, I wasn't aware, my bad. I think I was going off of the old Alacrity numbers when it wasn't a boon? And while I understand it's not required, the issue is that it's the most sought after. Why WOULDN'T you run a 20% CDR as often as you can? It just makes things easier.

Also, keep in mind my recommendation is for it to only affect PvE in this way.

The reason it's so over the top is because this is a game that relies on management of skill cooldowns instead of mana pools.

Without a mana pool, the skill CD management is the only thing that matters, which is why reducing that cooldown is the only thing that matters.

This is why chrono is meta

@Klipso.8653 said:The reason it's so over the top is because this is a game that relies on management of skill cooldowns instead of mana pools.

Without a mana pool, the skill CD management is the only thing that matters, which is why reducing that cooldown is the only thing that matters.

This is why chrono is meta

It's also why Alacrity was a mistake.

@"Klipso.8653" said:The reason it's so over the top is because this is a game that relies on management of skill cooldowns instead of mana pools.

Without a mana pool, the skill CD management is the only thing that matters, which is why reducing that cooldown is the only thing that matters.

This is why chrono is meta

That makes it so that Alacrity fills the role that Blood is Power used to fill in gw1 (https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blood_is_Power) where it was the main source of energy/mana regeneration and therefore invaluable to any group. The difference is, all the different classes had access to other viable means of energy regeneration whereas here we are stuck with Chrono or at most Renegade.

The complete removal of important boons shouldn't be the way to go. We could say similar things about Might, Quickness, Protection, Regeneration, Stability and Fury otherwise. The only reason why we don't are balance changes which spread those further across all classes. Just think about how much everyone complained about Phalanx Strength and later Grace of the Land - just to mention one (Might).The current system is simply a dumbed down version of the original intend and design. It would have been unthinkable years ago to be perma stacked on 10+ boons. Used to be all about personal buffs and healing with additional synergy through combo fields and finishers. Basically what used to make our combat system unique and also the thing they could have focused on instead of hard supports. Not that we never had certain classes overpowerform as supports even at release. Guardians (albait rarely fully utilised) and especially the Time Warp bot Mesmers come to mind.But neither of this matters anymore. The system is what it is and I for one prefer to keep all the boons currently present. They simply need to spread Alacrity and Quickness even further, hopefully without forcing even more annoying rotations out of the old builds while allowing other to do it at the press of a single button. All though, that wouldn't surprise me given the DPS balance nowadays.

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Its 20% cdr. And I dont understand why support chrono is bad design. You dont need chrono to complete raids.

you don't. except you do :)who would not run 100% Alacrity uptime when you can if you bring chronos? no one would choose to have more CD - that's the problem with the current balanceif chrono is the only class who can provide a specific buff or group of buffs for almost 100% uptime, there's just ZERO REASONS to not bring chronos since they will increase the DPS/Healing of the whole raid by a huge amount

Groups also require 25 might, fury, and other buffs. Why not just modify stats to provide those too? /s

They used to give 66% cooldown reduction. Ah that were cool times. Or do you guys/veterans remember, when quickness gave 100% attack/skill speed?

@Zawn.9647 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Its 20% cdr. And I dont understand why support chrono is bad design. You dont need chrono to complete raids.

Yes. I dont see the problem there. Somethig like banners and spirits are way worse because no other class can ever provide them. For each unique boon you have multiple sources. One of them is always the best and that is used. No problem there. But warrior will always be good since there will be no way banners would be bad.

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:But warrior will always be good since there will be no way banners would be bad.

Sounds like a challenge.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:But warrior will always be good since there will be no way banners would be bad.

Ok, banners can be nerfed to usless state. But unless tgey are usless they will be played

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Zawn.9647 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Its 20% cdr. And I dont understand why support chrono is bad design. You dont need chrono to complete raids.

I also dont agree with banners and spirits thoIMO there should be at least 2 classes with similar buffs so no one class is 100% "required" be it Alacrity, Banners, Spirits or anything else

Good discussions.

I can't say that I agree on things like Might and Fury. Those are able to be applied by almost every class in one way or another. Bannerslaves and Spiritboons are also a problem, IMO. There's nothing else in the game that just gives you a flat 10% damage increase for everyone around you, or the increased Power and Precision from banners and Empower Allies. And Spotter? Don't remember what that gives.

My point, though, is that when you have something as meta-changing, as rotation changing as alacrity, there's absolutely ZERO reason you wouldn't want to have it /all the time/. This is the problem. If they want to give it to more classes, like they did with Renegade, albeit a bit short range, by all means, go for it. Maybe it'll balance things out. But my issue stems from the meta. And whether you agree or disagree, it's the meta for a reason.

While I disagree with 95% of all nerf this, nerf that idiot threads which pop-up, I am ambivalent on alacrity.

I think it is an amazing boon and a great idea. I was fully on board on having it on more than 1 class and I do think we need 1-2 more support builds which offer it. Ideally balanced in a way that similar to Renegade and Chrono come at a cost.

I also think it has a very strong effect on the game beside damage output. Mind you I don't mind having class unique abilities (I don't mind warrior banners or druid spirits for example), I do mind the massive cumulative effect alacrity has on balance. When balancing for alacrity, you don't only have to balance for up-time and availability, you also have to balance for the reduced skill cooldowns on each class affected. Which means:

• either you balance with alacrity in mind, which makes the boon absolutely required
• or you balance without alacrity in mind, which will result in it still being brought (since it is a power increase) and thus power creep versus the original design (this could actually be fine, and might even be the way arenanet balances right now since raids have a ton of leeway performance wise)

It essentially makes balance a lot lot LOT harder for the balance team. Given that the poor guys already have their hands full, I kind of could understand someone to argue that removing alacrity would allow for better balance thanks to easier balance.

From a purely theoretical and workload (for the balance team) decision I think removing alacrity could be argued in favor of(not result based, I don't care as much about how powerful the boon is, proper balance can fix all of that. The question is how hard is it to achieve this level of balance). At the cost of uniqueness obviously.

Some might argue we are then entering a slippery slope since everything which is super useful would need toning down or normalizing (and we all know how that ends, hi WoW) and while that might be true on some level, no other boon has such a great effect on every other class and rotation as this one.

Problem isnt alacrity, really. Vigor is more of a problem. You need it as a defensive boon and also because there are traits that let you do more dmg if your endurance is full. Retaliation. Fury. Those are boons that are difficult to organize.

Removing alacrity would only make sense if theres a huge boon-overhaul. With boons being made 10man, different boon-spam builds and stat-contribution of might being lowered. Just to remove a boon? Not much use in that for theorycrafting. We would still be stuck with chronos.

The problem isn't just the boon.Alacrity can give given to 10 targets at 100% uptime with Rev (with 2 Fb's for Quickness) or 2 Chrono's.The main problem IMO is the Utility that Chrono also brings as well as Quickness, Alacrity and general boon spam. You've got Deadeye's who benefit from tons of boons. They've got tons of CC on a shorter cooldown then designed (Moa Signet), you've got massive pulls on Focus, Blocks (Shield 4), evades (sword 2). You can even get a projectile reflect for Mathius (Feedback) and not to mention ageis share only 2nd to guardian.

They can do what all other classes can do and more. The only reason you'd bring anything else is for Damage. Being able to bring quickess and alaricty, even if it brings more damage. Is not enough to even threaten a Chrono unless you're the 0.5% trying to beat someone else's time.

@Yasi.9065 said:Problem isnt alacrity, really. Vigor is more of a problem. You need it as a defensive boon and also because there are traits that let you do more dmg if your endurance is full. Retaliation. Fury. Those are boons that are difficult to organize.

Removing alacrity would only make sense if theres a huge boon-overhaul. With boons being made 10man, different boon-spam builds and stat-contribution of might being lowered. Just to remove a boon? Not much use in that for theorycrafting. We would still be stuck with chronos.

The problem with alacrity is it scales the dps with % this is always a concern for trouble, the other point is it changes how fast the game play is and skills in the rota which with alacrity must be executed faster. With 20% its nearly okish but with 66% gw2 must have been felt like a an hack&slay game ala Diablo. To say it out load without alacrity rotas would change and weapons would need a buff differently for each class.

Spirits especially frost spirit has a similar problem but with 5% it also okish but it has the same balancing problem to make it more clear those % modifier multiply with each other this result in exponential grow which is really bad in terms of balancing at some point A- NET balancing team must realized themselves this is the reason those skills got nerfed again and again.

By the way fury don't has this problem because with 100% crit rate you have a hard cap. Banners are absolute okay they have fix values and it isn't said that future elites could do something similar e.g engi with new towers.

One thing more chrono isn't the only class who can do alacrity the reverent can do it too so far I heard the up time is equal after the last patch. I don't know how right this is but it certainly went in this direction.

@Cyninja.2954 said:It essentially makes balance a lot lot LOT harder for the balance team. Given that the poor guys already have their hands full, I kind of could understand someone to argue that removing alacrity would allow for better balance thanks to easier balance.From a purely theoretical and workload (for the balance team) decision I think removing alacrity could be argued in favor of(not result based, I don't care as much about how powerful the boon is, proper balance can fix all of that. The question is how hard is it to achieve this level of balance). At the cost of uniqueness obviously.

I see this argument a lot, and my response is always the same, and no one ever seems to give a good answer, or rather any answer at all. If alacrity is the giant problem that makes balancing so difficult, why was balance worse pre-hot than it is now (unless you want to argue that position)? Before alacrity was added to the game, we didn't have some grand utopia where every class was competitive and viable. We had necros and rangers being instakicked from dungeons and fractals.

The important thing isn't alacrity being in the game or not. It's Anet, and unfortunately for many years, Anet just didn't care. You can see it even in this most recent balance patch. Another rework for chrono only for the chrono meta to not change (yet at least), while other classes are more so ignored.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

• either you balance with alacrity in mind, which makes the boon absolutely required
• or you balance without alacrity in mind, which will result in it still being brought (since it is a power increase) and thus power creep versus the original design (this could actually be fine, and might even be the way arenanet balances right now since raids have a ton of leeway performance wise)

This really isn't any different from might. Should the team balance the encounter assuming a group that is might capped or should they balance assuming a group isn't might capped? The obvious answer to me is, assume might is capped, but make sure multiple classes can provide might so there is the possibility of flexibility, and make sure that any class that can upkeep might sacrifices comparable amounts of dps.

@thrag.9740 said:I see this argument a lot, and my response is always the same, and no one ever seems to give a good answer, or rather any answer at all. If alacrity is the giant problem that makes balancing so difficult, why was balance worse pre-hot than it is now (unless you want to argue that position)? Before alacrity was added to the game, we didn't have some grand utopia where every class was competitive and viable. We had necros and rangers being instakicked from dungeons and fractals.

The important thing isn't alacrity being in the game or not. It's Anet, and unfortunately for many years, Anet just didn't care. You can see it even in this most recent balance patch. Another rework for chrono only for the chrono meta to not change (yet at least), while other classes are more so ignored.

Implying current bad practice is better than previous bad practice ?Both practices were bad.

Alacrity is and will always be a mistake when it's shared. It should never have been changed from a status to a boon either.

What I have more of an issue with is permanent quickness. Originally a short term boon meant for burst damage, it's been converted into a boon that can (and is expected to) be up 100% of the time. At an overall DPS increase of around 30%, it makes this the most important boon in the game. Also, quickness makes DPS rotations harder to do. Alacrity is strong, but only in large amounts over long term.

@TexZero.7910 said:

Implying current bad practice is better than previous bad practice ?

That's not what I am implying. You lot keep telling me that alacrity makes it very difficult to balance the game, and that it hinders Anet's ability to balance. If that is true, why wasn't the game well balanced when alacrity didn't exist?

First let me address, since people are again off on looking what alacrity does for damage, why I think the boon is so strong.

Yes, alacrity increases damage, same as might, quickness and fury (all to varying but significant degrees).

What no other boon does though and what alacrity also affects is:

• cooldowns of skills which provide more utility in form of boons
• cooldowns of skills which provide crowd control making dealing with cc bars easier
• cooldowns of healing skills
• cooldowns on rotations making certain rotations even possible

That is where alacrity takes the top spot.

Now game play wise a class wide rework to reduce cooldowns somewhat and remove alacrity would address the issue of clunkiness people might have with permanent longer cooldowns, it would not cure the simplification which would take place obviously.

@thrag.9740 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:It essentially makes balance a lot lot LOT harder for the balance team. Given that the poor guys already have their hands full, I kind of could understand someone to argue that removing alacrity would allow for better balance thanks to easier balance.From a purely theoretical and workload (for the balance team) decision I think removing alacrity could be argued in favor of(not result based, I don't care as much about how powerful the boon is, proper balance can fix all of that. The question is how hard is it to achieve this level of balance). At the cost of uniqueness obviously.

Yes I get what you are saying, here is my take on this:Before alacrity (and thus before HoT) we did not have challenging endgame pve content. There was a ton of less metrics created and balanced around both by the players and Arenanet. This changed once raids in HoT were introduced (and elite specializations and support builds). This is very visible in how balance has panned out and changed over the last 3 years. Thus comparing pre HoT and post HoT balance is tricky.

Now I'm not saying that balance would be perfect (I honestly believe no matter how well balanced something is, there will always be people who complain and want to blame the game instead of themselves) but I am not ready to dismiss the biggest balance factor boon wise or give alacrity a free pass. One can argue to keep the boon, which I too (as stated, I am conflicted on this issue) support but one has to realize just how powerful this boon is, even after multiple nerfs.

@thrag.9740 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

• either you balance with alacrity in mind, which makes the boon absolutely required
• or you balance without alacrity in mind, which will result in it still being brought (since it is a power increase) and thus power creep versus the original design (this could actually be fine, and might even be the way arenanet balances right now since raids have a ton of leeway performance wise)

Might, Fury and quickness all only affect damage. You can balance around damage without boons (which I think they do given the low damage numbers required).

As stated above, alacrity outperforms all those boons on multiple levels.