Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged] - Page 10 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]

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  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If it wasn't for Portal right now mirage wouldn't even be in the meta, lot of builds around actually counters it pretty good, holosmith running elixir x are way way stronger than mirage in any serious comp, boonbeast is top 1vX duelist side noder at the moment, even the new tramawar sword build has more mobility then a thief plus lot's of favourable 1vs1 scenarios.
    Not to mention the combo firebrand scourge is still the strongest duo you can get in a comp.

    But yeah people sitting in silver league doing soloqs with maybe a team of double thief or core rangers will complain how broken is the mirage in the enemy team.

    The game should't be balanced based on silver or gold players who doesn't know how to counter a certain profession.
    Mirage, especially condi variant is the number one spec in the game which PUNISH heavily noob players with little understanding of the game mechanics.

    If you watch lot of high level streams or AT tournaments you will see how mirages drop portal go to another node and they escape almost every single time from 1vs1s scenarios, unless they have a favourable matchup, and as I said they don't have many currently, holosmiths should melt mirages pretty hard, boonbeasts same story, even tramawar with signet of stamina and double shake it off plus emergency healing signet it's a tough opponent, standard daggerbreaker is a direct counter to condi mirages, core guards eat mirages alive.
    Only revenant really struggles against condi mirage in a 1vs1, but usually rev is a +1 rotation build and if lands both sword4 and 5 goodbye mirage.

    I play a lot of wvw as well, and I can touch the stupidity of some players, like this mithrill rank reaper who thinks he is good, i was semi afk and he attacks me on my hybrid mirage and I kill and stomp him, and immediately he whispers me calling me condi noob and cancer.
    A reaper is a team fighter dps profession, it shines in 1vs1 against noobs who doesn't kite shroud, so you, reaper, why trash talk to me when you play a team fighter build and expect to win against a pure build made for 1vs1s?
    You are free to roam with any spec you want, but don't trash talk if you don't even know your profession role, go in a small group with a firebrand pally and your reaper will become a monster.

    It's because of stupid people like this guy that everyone cries over mirage.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2018

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    My only gripe with Condi mirage is the insane amount of disengage. Realistically, you should never die. The only changes if like to see are; make sword ambush require a target, like guardian sword 2. I'd also like to see an ICD added to blinding dissipation, not because it's op but because it's horrible to play against as a melee class where dodging shatters is a guessing game and not reactable (if that's even a word).

    What's funny is so many mirage players don't run that trait anymore as evasive mirror works better against static disc engines, pew pew soul beasts, and rifle deadeye.
    (...)

    I very much doubt that will last (if it is even true). The blind gives nice additional damage with ineptitude. But I agree, it is nice for mesmer/mirage in general to be able to adjust the build in case the enemy team hase more than one DE or pewpew ranger. I wouldn't change that at all, because it not only affects condi mirage - maybe look at the ICD of ineptitude, but... that would hurt core condi... well, I dunno. I'd not change either. It's a nice synergy.

    @jportell.2197 said:
    (...)
    Weavers have ride the lightning.
    (...)

    I get triggerd when I see someone talking about ele. :lol: I hope you were not serious here! Ele can not catch up.* RtL has no verticality and often stops on tiny floor elevations. LoS actually works here. It is interruptible! 30s CD! Aaah! That skill is so dumb, I hate it.

    On some easy maps like Eternal Loliseum (or when the mesmer is stupid and doesn't use verticality^^) it can be used, on many, it is not really good.

    As I keep saying, mesmer has too many disengage capabilities for such a damage/sustain ratio. But yes, don't get triggered, same goes for holo. Boonbeast is easier to play, but can be pinned down. :tongue:

    €:
    *Hold on, gotta stop myself there. Not with most builds. Axe + Scepter ones can be caught. Staff and Sword makes them hard to catch for ele, even though it still depends on the actual CDs - LF ready, Air 2, how many Jaunts and stuff.

  • tinyreborn.1938tinyreborn.1938 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2018

    Funny enough some ppl use it . Either to counter brother in arms (other mesmers that 100% based on projectiles) or some others known classes ;)
    And about ineptitude ,its not a mandatory anymore. IH need clones ,only good trait left for mirage ... So hello DE again... I thought we wouldnt see this trait anymore after rework but no.
    Also @whoknocks.4935 I see you changed your opinion after playing it yourself? ;)

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2018

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    Funny enough some ppl use it . Either to counter brother in arms (other mesmers that 100% based on projectiles) or some others known classes ;)
    And about ineptitude ,its not a mandatory anymore. IH need clones ,only good trait left for mirage ... So hello DE again... I thought we wouldnt see this trait anymore after rework but no.
    Also @whoknocks.4935 I see you changed your opinion after playing it yourself? ;)

    Yaah, I actually like that each traitline and a lot of single traits enable mirage - especially condi mirage - to adjust and adapt to different compositions. That's something they really did well and I'd hope they did the same for other classes too. :smile:

    Am I a bit jealous? No. Very!^^

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    My only gripe with Condi mirage is the insane amount of disengage. Realistically, you should never die. The only changes if like to see are; make sword ambush require a target, like guardian sword 2. I'd also like to see an ICD added to blinding dissipation, not because it's op but because it's horrible to play against as a melee class where dodging shatters is a guessing game and not reactable (if that's even a word).

    What's funny is so many mirage players don't run that trait anymore as evasive mirror works better against static disc engines, pew pew soul beasts, and rifle deadeye.
    (...)

    I very much doubt that will last (if it is even true). The blind gives nice additional damage with ineptitude. But I agree, it is nice for mesmer/mirage in general to be able to adjust the build in case the enemy team hase more than one DE or pewpew ranger. I wouldn't change that at all, because it not only affects condi mirage - maybe look at the ICD of ineptitude, but... that would hurt core condi... well, I dunno. I'd not change either. It's a nice synergy.

    @jportell.2197 said:
    (...)
    Weavers have ride the lightning.
    (...)

    I get triggerd when I see someone talking about ele. :lol: I hope you were not serious here! Ele can not catch up.* RtL has no verticality and often stops on tiny floor elevations. LoS actually works here. It is interruptible! 30s CD! Aaah! That skill is so dumb, I hate it.

    On some easy maps like Eternal Loliseum (or when the mesmer is stupid and doesn't use verticality^^) it can be used, on many, it is not really good.

    As I keep saying, mesmer has too many disengage capabilities for such a damage/sustain ratio. But yes, don't get triggered, same goes for holo. Boonbeast is easier to play, but can be pinned down. :tongue:

    €:
    *Hold on, gotta stop myself there. Not with most builds. Axe + Scepter ones can be caught. Staff and Sword makes them hard to catch for ele, even though it still depends on the actual CDs - LF ready, Air 2, how many Jaunts and stuff.

    I see what you're saying, and you factor in the current Meta to a large extent, however You must also look at class representation and how even classes that are not inherently ranged have clutch skills that are ranged and CAN be reflected. That makes the trait next to invaluable. The only reason blind is a thing is because of ineptitude and that's on its last leg as it is.
    Any changes to Mesmer mobility need to be done EXTREMELY cautiously and targeted at sword ambush and nowhere else to preserve build diversity, a slight reduction in leap from 600 to maybe 500 as an example (I know we had 450 as baseline at PoF release and it sucked, so there needs to be middle ground).
    Bottomline calling Mesmer extremely mobile boils down to Portal and Sword Ambush, Blink isn't a problem. It functions the same way since launch on the same CD. Jaunt distance isn't enough to make a difference in gaining a large amount of space, between you and your opponent. It's best used for situational reposition and it's awesome at that. Introducing a higher CD on the sword ambush would just lower build diversity, by making sword useless. A rework on Ineptitude might actually just do the job without further changes, methinks.

    I'm just spitballing here, feel free to provide better suggestions. I respect you enough to consider your input. :wink:

    I agree, maybe some change to sword ambush would already be a good start - but actually, axe just adds up more damage and still is very mobile. One jaunt is okay, but three in a row can be really strong, up and down ledges and stuff. Of course depends on the ammo situation of it, 30s CD is pretty tough.

    Anyway, I would like to see mesmer take choices. Between strong damage and strong sustain/kite abilities. My suggestion:
    1. Make dodge unable during stuns.
    2. EM makes it usable during stuns.
    3. Reduce recharge time of jaunt back to 20s, but put a 5s CD on it. Numbers may vary.

    This way condi mes has to choose between sustain with EM and damage with IH.

    And last but not least: Either make portal way less efficient in PVP or give it to other classes. That is still a major advantage of mesmer and makes it extremely hard to balance. It is - for example - a major reason it was meta throughout HoT. While in the end, condi chrono was really not that great in pure fighting capabilities anymore, but simply had to be balanced around that skill. That sucks for both mesmers and other classes in some way.

    Again, I doubt any dev will read this topic this far, but I would be very interested in mesmer main opinions if this would be too harsh, a wrong direction or even too few changes at all.

    Also Why would you EVER want to catch a Mesmer as an Ele? You just forced the Mesmer to disengage, take the win and GTFO, get support from a class that handles them better, like your neighborhood Core Guard ideally.

    That's pretty true.^^ Weaver really trolls condi mirage into eternity. Not like killing, but stalling and decapping. :tongue:

  • Arlette.9684Arlette.9684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2018

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    My only gripe with Condi mirage is the insane amount of disengage. Realistically, you should never die. The only changes if like to see are; make sword ambush require a target, like guardian sword 2. I'd also like to see an ICD added to blinding dissipation, not because it's op but because it's horrible to play against as a melee class where dodging shatters is a guessing game and not reactable (if that's even a word).

    What's funny is so many mirage players don't run that trait anymore as evasive mirror works better against static disc engines, pew pew soul beasts, and rifle deadeye.
    (...)

    I very much doubt that will last (if it is even true). The blind gives nice additional damage with ineptitude. But I agree, it is nice for mesmer/mirage in general to be able to adjust the build in case the enemy team hase more than one DE or pewpew ranger. I wouldn't change that at all, because it not only affects condi mirage - maybe look at the ICD of ineptitude, but... that would hurt core condi... well, I dunno. I'd not change either. It's a nice synergy.

    @jportell.2197 said:
    (...)
    Weavers have ride the lightning.
    (...)

    I get triggerd when I see someone talking about ele. :lol: I hope you were not serious here! Ele can not catch up.* RtL has no verticality and often stops on tiny floor elevations. LoS actually works here. It is interruptible! 30s CD! Aaah! That skill is so dumb, I hate it.

    On some easy maps like Eternal Loliseum (or when the mesmer is stupid and doesn't use verticality^^) it can be used, on many, it is not really good.

    As I keep saying, mesmer has too many disengage capabilities for such a damage/sustain ratio. But yes, don't get triggered, same goes for holo. Boonbeast is easier to play, but can be pinned down. :tongue:

    €:
    *Hold on, gotta stop myself there. Not with most builds. Axe + Scepter ones can be caught. Staff and Sword makes them hard to catch for ele, even though it still depends on the actual CDs - LF ready, Air 2, how many Jaunts and stuff.

    I see what you're saying, and you factor in the current Meta to a large extent, however You must also look at class representation and how even classes that are not inherently ranged have clutch skills that are ranged and CAN be reflected. That makes the trait next to invaluable. The only reason blind is a thing is because of ineptitude and that's on its last leg as it is.
    Any changes to Mesmer mobility need to be done EXTREMELY cautiously and targeted at sword ambush and nowhere else to preserve build diversity, a slight reduction in leap from 600 to maybe 500 as an example (I know we had 450 as baseline at PoF release and it sucked, so there needs to be middle ground).
    Bottomline calling Mesmer extremely mobile boils down to Portal and Sword Ambush, Blink isn't a problem. It functions the same way since launch on the same CD. Jaunt distance isn't enough to make a difference in gaining a large amount of space, between you and your opponent. It's best used for situational reposition and it's awesome at that. Introducing a higher CD on the sword ambush would just lower build diversity, by making sword useless. A rework on Ineptitude might actually just do the job without further changes, methinks.

    I'm just spitballing here, feel free to provide better suggestions. I respect you enough to consider your input. :wink:

    I agree, maybe some change to sword ambush would already be a good start - but actually, axe just adds up more damage and still is very mobile. One jaunt is okay, but three in a row can be really strong, up and down ledges and stuff. Of course depends on the ammo situation of it, 30s CD is pretty tough.

    Anyway, I would like to see mesmer take choices. Between strong damage and strong sustain/kite abilities. My suggestion:
    1. Make dodge unable during stuns.
    2. EM makes it usable during stuns.
    3. Reduce recharge time of jaunt back to 20s, but put a 5s CD on it. Numbers may vary.

    This way condi mes has to choose between sustain with EM and damage with IH.

    And last but not least: Either make portal way less efficient in PVP or give it to other classes. That is still a major advantage of mesmer and makes it extremely hard to balance. It is - for example - a major reason it was meta throughout HoT. While in the end, condi chrono was really not that great in pure fighting capabilities anymore, but simply had to be balanced around that skill. That sucks for both mesmers and other classes in some way.

    Again, I doubt any dev will read this topic this far, but I would be very interested in mesmer main opinions if this would be too harsh, a wrong direction or even too few changes at all.

    Also Why would you EVER want to catch a Mesmer as an Ele? You just forced the Mesmer to disengage, take the win and GTFO, get support from a class that handles them better, like your neighborhood Core Guard ideally.

    That's pretty true.^^ Weaver really trolls condi mirage into eternity. Not like killing, but stalling and decapping. :tongue:

    While I do agree with a lot of the suggestions, those CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be done in a single patch, it has to be spread out over a couple Balance patches at least as there will undoubtedly be changes to the other 8 classes and those will reflect on Mesmer as a class as well. Which is why I said slow, targeted changes, that also take into account how the meta progresses. Historically this is ANET's biggest downfall, because of their scarce balance patches and failure to adopt hotfixes to glaring issues... We end up with A dominant class getting 3-4 things nerfed in a single patch while 2 under performing classes get 3-4 things buffed and the result is a complete MESS, god forbid our dear Devs stop for a moment and consider how the meta would be affected, oh wait! That actually requires player input and we ALL know they're done listening to those thanks to bums like, ugh not mentioning any names.

    Vae Victus!
    [Hcm] Promotraitor

  • FtoPScrub.5476FtoPScrub.5476 Member ✭✭✭

    The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

  • Arlette.9684Arlette.9684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:
    The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

    They're already at 50% of Mesmer duration/stacks. How much more do you want them nerfed? If memory serves me well and @Pyroatheist.9031 feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, IH was nerfed a little after PoF released to that 50% value.

    Vae Victus!
    [Hcm] Promotraitor

  • FtoPScrub.5476FtoPScrub.5476 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:
    The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

    They're already at 50% of Mesmer duration/stacks. How much more do you want them nerfed? If memory serves me well and @Pyroatheist.9031 feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, IH was nerfed a little after PoF released to that 50% value.

    Previous nerfs should play zero part in balancing. It doesn't matter if a skill was previously nerfed 1000000%. If its still OP then its still OP.

  • Arlette.9684Arlette.9684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:
    The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

    They're already at 50% of Mesmer duration/stacks. How much more do you want them nerfed? If memory serves me well and @Pyroatheist.9031 feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, IH was nerfed a little after PoF released to that 50% value.

    Previous nerfs should play zero part in balancing. It doesn't matter if a skill was previously nerfed 1000000%. If its still OP then its still OP.

    IH is not OP, it's very limited and targeted at what it does. It's not the trait, it's the ambushes themselves is what I'm getting at.

    Vae Victus!
    [Hcm] Promotraitor

  • FtoPScrub.5476FtoPScrub.5476 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:
    The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

    They're already at 50% of Mesmer duration/stacks. How much more do you want them nerfed? If memory serves me well and @Pyroatheist.9031 feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, IH was nerfed a little after PoF released to that 50% value.

    Previous nerfs should play zero part in balancing. It doesn't matter if a skill was previously nerfed 1000000%. If its still OP then its still OP.

    IH is not OP, it's very limited and targeted at what it does. It's not the trait, it's the ambushes themselves is what I'm getting at.

    You didn't mention anything about ambushes so I don't know how you expect me to know what you're getting at, but nerfing the ambushes themselves is fine as well.

  • Arlette.9684Arlette.9684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2018

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:
    The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

    They're already at 50% of Mesmer duration/stacks. How much more do you want them nerfed? If memory serves me well and @Pyroatheist.9031 feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, IH was nerfed a little after PoF released to that 50% value.

    Previous nerfs should play zero part in balancing. It doesn't matter if a skill was previously nerfed 1000000%. If its still OP then its still OP.

    IH is not OP, it's very limited and targeted at what it does. It's not the trait, it's the ambushes themselves is what I'm getting at.

    You didn't mention anything about ambushes so I don't know how you expect me to know what you're getting at, but nerfing the ambushes themselves is fine as well.

    Excerpt from the GW2 Wiki page:
    When you gain Mirage Cloak, your illusions also gain it.

    Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infinite_Horizon

    Where in that trait description, do you see a way to nerf it without completely redoing it? That's literary all the trait does.

    Vae Victus!
    [Hcm] Promotraitor

  • FtoPScrub.5476FtoPScrub.5476 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2018

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:
    The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

    They're already at 50% of Mesmer duration/stacks. How much more do you want them nerfed? If memory serves me well and @Pyroatheist.9031 feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, IH was nerfed a little after PoF released to that 50% value.

    Previous nerfs should play zero part in balancing. It doesn't matter if a skill was previously nerfed 1000000%. If its still OP then its still OP.

    IH is not OP, it's very limited and targeted at what it does. It's not the trait, it's the ambushes themselves is what I'm getting at.

    You didn't mention anything about ambushes so I don't know how you expect me to know what you're getting at, but nerfing the ambushes themselves is fine as well.

    Excerpt from the GW2 Wiki page:
    When you gain Mirage Cloak, your illusions also gain it.

    Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infinite_Horizon

    Where in that trait description, do you see a way to nerf it without completely redoing it? That's literary all the trait does.

    ???

    Nerf the ambush from clones??? As I said in my first post???

  • Arlette.9684Arlette.9684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:
    The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

    They're already at 50% of Mesmer duration/stacks. How much more do you want them nerfed? If memory serves me well and @Pyroatheist.9031 feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, IH was nerfed a little after PoF released to that 50% value.

    Previous nerfs should play zero part in balancing. It doesn't matter if a skill was previously nerfed 1000000%. If its still OP then its still OP.

    IH is not OP, it's very limited and targeted at what it does. It's not the trait, it's the ambushes themselves is what I'm getting at.

    You didn't mention anything about ambushes so I don't know how you expect me to know what you're getting at, but nerfing the ambushes themselves is fine as well.

    Excerpt from the GW2 Wiki page:
    When you gain Mirage Cloak, your illusions also gain it.

    Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infinite_Horizon

    Where in that trait description, do you see a way to nerf it without completely redoing it? That's literary all the trait does.

    ???

    Nerf the ambush from clones??? As I said in my first post???

    I only responded cuz you were talking about IH as a trait initially.
    The clone ambushes have been tweaked as I mentioned already. Only viable option is to tweak the Caster's ambushes not the clone ones. If that's what you were going for, then we're in agreement.

    Vae Victus!
    [Hcm] Promotraitor

  • FtoPScrub.5476FtoPScrub.5476 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2018

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:
    The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

    They're already at 50% of Mesmer duration/stacks. How much more do you want them nerfed? If memory serves me well and @Pyroatheist.9031 feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, IH was nerfed a little after PoF released to that 50% value.

    Previous nerfs should play zero part in balancing. It doesn't matter if a skill was previously nerfed 1000000%. If its still OP then its still OP.

    IH is not OP, it's very limited and targeted at what it does. It's not the trait, it's the ambushes themselves is what I'm getting at.

    You didn't mention anything about ambushes so I don't know how you expect me to know what you're getting at, but nerfing the ambushes themselves is fine as well.

    Excerpt from the GW2 Wiki page:
    When you gain Mirage Cloak, your illusions also gain it.

    Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infinite_Horizon

    Where in that trait description, do you see a way to nerf it without completely redoing it? That's literary all the trait does.

    ???

    Nerf the ambush from clones??? As I said in my first post???

    I only responded cuz you were talking about IH as a trait initially.
    The clone ambushes have been tweaked as I mentioned already. Only viable option is to tweak the Caster's ambushes not the clone ones. If that's what you were going for, then we're in agreement.

    I'm fine with either options.

  • Arlette.9684Arlette.9684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2018

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @FtoPScrub.5476 said:
    The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

    They're already at 50% of Mesmer duration/stacks. How much more do you want them nerfed? If memory serves me well and @Pyroatheist.9031 feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, IH was nerfed a little after PoF released to that 50% value.

    Previous nerfs should play zero part in balancing. It doesn't matter if a skill was previously nerfed 1000000%. If its still OP then its still OP.

    IH is not OP, it's very limited and targeted at what it does. It's not the trait, it's the ambushes themselves is what I'm getting at.

    You didn't mention anything about ambushes so I don't know how you expect me to know what you're getting at, but nerfing the ambushes themselves is fine as well.

    Excerpt from the GW2 Wiki page:
    When you gain Mirage Cloak, your illusions also gain it.

    Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infinite_Horizon

    Where in that trait description, do you see a way to nerf it without completely redoing it? That's literary all the trait does.

    ???

    Nerf the ambush from clones??? As I said in my first post???

    I only responded cuz you were talking about IH as a trait initially.
    The clone ambushes have been tweaked as I mentioned already. Only viable option is to tweak the Caster's ambushes not the clone ones. If that's what you were going for, then we're in agreement.

    I'm fine with either options.

    There is no options, it's that way or no way. Where do you see options?
    It doesn't kitten matter what you or I see, it's what ANET sees as viable options and they have a long history of going overboard.

    Edit: I only responded to this bait because I thought you were somebody else, now If you'll excuse me...

    Vae Victus!
    [Hcm] Promotraitor

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2018

    @dagger dave.5201 said:
    Cleave clones, dodge burst, stow wep if u mis time the dodge... mirage is probably the easiest side noder to 1v1

    But its probably the best class to kill unskilled/unexperienced players with :)
    Who do you think posts these "PLEASE NERF ZOMG" threads? xD

  • brappish.8715brappish.8715 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2018

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @dagger dave.5201 said:
    Cleave clones, dodge burst, stow wep if u mis time the dodge... mirage is probably the easiest side noder to 1v1

    But its probably the best class to kill unskilled/unexperienced players with :)
    Who do you think posts these "PLEASE NERF ZOMG" threads? xD

    100% thats whos complaining. You dont hear any top tier people having issues...because it's literally a mind f ack for people who are "meh" at pvp. So they QQ here

    Overpowered.

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    Funny enough some ppl use it . Either to counter brother in arms (other mesmers that 100% based on projectiles) or some others known classes ;)
    And about ineptitude ,its not a mandatory anymore. IH need clones ,only good trait left for mirage ... So hello DE again... I thought we wouldnt see this trait anymore after rework but no.
    Also @whoknocks.4935 I see you changed your opinion after playing it yourself? ;)

    In pvp mirage never gave me too much troubles, i play monstly solo roaming in wvw and with all the build possibilities there it's where mirages gave me more issues.

    Now i pretty much switched to mirage roaming as well after trying it out, i use a sustain build condi oriented, sometimes i switch to grieving stats to have fun with hybrid.

    To be honest it's the only profession since i started playing wvw that don't make me frustrated, in wvw it's all a constant gank from 2vs1 to 10vs1 because people is bad at their class and find the excuse to "help" the server winning and go for cheap kills.
    But the reality is killing 1 person is like dropping a tear into the ocean in the big scheme of wvw.
    Actually yesterday a group of 10 people chased me for about 5-10 minutes across the map until they killed me, they could invest that time flipping a camp a tower or even a keep instead to go for a 10vs1 for 10 mins xD so in the end i won.

    But yeah in pvp is far from being broken, i repeat, holosmith should melt any mirage, meta daggerbreaker and tramawar are both able to kill mirage no problem or force a retreat, boonbeast if manages well his sustain and get plasma have an easy time against mirage who is forced to disengage, before mirage could take any 1vs1 without caring at all, now at this point with all the nerfs and the rising of crazy good builds it's not that easy anymore, still it's good a 1vs1 and old few people 1vs2 due to the evades and target breaks, but he is forced to disengage against any other dualist build which usually outshine mirage.
    If it wasn't for portal and good plus 1 ability, mesmer now probably wasn't even in the meta.
    But yeah people play with core ranger in pvp and cry because they die to mirage.

  • tinyreborn.1938tinyreborn.1938 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2018

    I played always no toughness/vitality roaming solo on wvw. There always indeed like 1vs million ppl and triggered ppl continue to chase/gank because you kill them w/o outnumbered. Soon enough you will use frnezy into aoe retal and then your jaw will drop on the floor ... xD
    Well ,realistically only bad people die 1x2 to anything , not just mirage . Core ranger is good at cleansing unless they slot god know what and expect ...miracle to happen .
    Its more like a matter of a personal skill .
    You forgot to mention core guardians ... xD

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    I played always no toughness/vitality roaming solo on wvw. There always indeed like 1vs million ppl and triggered ppl continue to chase/gank because you kill them w/o outnumbered. Soon enough you will use frnezy into aoe retal and then your jaw will drop on the floor ... xD
    Well ,realistically only bad people die 1x2 to anything , not just mirage . Core ranger is good at cleansing unless they slot god know what and expect ...miracle to happen .
    Its more like a matter of a personal skill .
    You forgot to mention core guardians ... xD

    If you play power shatter mirage you don't stack toughness or vitality, but in an hybrid condi build you can and should, since your bursr is melee range you need extra sustain to win the fights.
    What do you mean only bad players die 1x2?

  • @whoknocks.4935 said:

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    I played always no toughness/vitality roaming solo on wvw. There always indeed like 1vs million ppl and triggered ppl continue to chase/gank because you kill them w/o outnumbered. Soon enough you will use frnezy into aoe retal and then your jaw will drop on the floor ... xD
    Well ,realistically only bad people die 1x2 to anything , not just mirage . Core ranger is good at cleansing unless they slot god know what and expect ...miracle to happen .
    Its more like a matter of a personal skill .
    You forgot to mention core guardians ... xD

    If you play power shatter mirage you don't stack toughness or vitality, but in an hybrid condi build you can and should, since your bursr is melee range you need extra sustain to win the fights.
    What do you mean only bad players die 1x2?

    I played yolo hybrid always . I wanted to get kills asap.
    1x2 comment about

    still it's good a 1vs1 and old few people 1vs2 due to the evades and target breaks

    Its not really win 1x2 ,especially if firebrand around ,time to pack things and move on .But not playing wvw anymore ,boring to play alone against 3+ :disappointed:

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    If you play power shatter mirage you don't stack toughness or vitality, but in an hybrid condi build you can and should, since your bursr is melee range you need extra sustain to win the fights.
    What do you mean only bad players die 1x2?

    Power shatter needs to be in melee range for burst as well. Mirror blade only gets more bounces close up and you only damage yourself as a shatter if you are close. Now, certainly you can do damage at range playing power. However, you can do the same with condi as well. Both can do damage at a distance but do more damage at close range.

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    And last but not least: Either make portal way less efficient in PVP or give it to other classes. That is still a major advantage of mesmer and makes it extremely hard to balance. It is - for example - a major reason it was meta throughout HoT. While in the end, condi chrono was really not that great in pure fighting capabilities anymore, but simply had to be balanced around that skill. That sucks for both mesmers and other classes in some way.

    Portal has had its CD increased. Then decreased because it was so bad noone brought mesmer. Its had its range decreased as well. Any more changes to portal and you may as well stop bringing a mesmer. This is the problem when you have 5 spots on a team and 9 classes. However you still rarely see teams running two mirages in ATs and doing well. Two holosmiths on the other hand.....

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2018

    @jportell.2197 said:

    And last but not least: Either make portal way less efficient in PVP or give it to other classes. That is still a major advantage of mesmer and makes it extremely hard to balance. It is - for example - a major reason it was meta throughout HoT. While in the end, condi chrono was really not that great in pure fighting capabilities anymore, but simply had to be balanced around that skill. That sucks for both mesmers and other classes in some way.

    Portal has had its CD increased. Then decreased because it was so bad noone brought mesmer. Its had its range decreased as well. Any more changes to portal and you may as well stop bringing a mesmer. This is the problem when you have 5 spots on a team and 9 classes. However you still rarely see teams running two mirages in ATs and doing well. Two holosmiths on the other hand.....

    Do you remember what happened with mesmer during HoT? It kept getting gutted and gutted in fighting capabilities, because it always profited from one skill - portal. That sole skill made the class OP. In the end mesmer could hardly duel, but was still mandatory just because of portal. The very same thing is happening right now - we are not there yet, but we are going through the exact same stages as during HoT.

    There needs to be a solution to this - either get rid of portal and not having to balance mesmer around this skill or give it to more classes so the class is mandatory in competitive classes only for this. This way mesmer can finally be balanced only around it's actual fighting capabilities, not just around portal anymore.

    Actually, I'd prefer to get rid of it. I hate the "lol you drove me off far, I'll just set my portal and decap it when you come after me helping mid haha, very skillful" and all these dumb moves. But I'd be fine with both solutions.

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    And last but not least: Either make portal way less efficient in PVP or give it to other classes. That is still a major advantage of mesmer and makes it extremely hard to balance. It is - for example - a major reason it was meta throughout HoT. While in the end, condi chrono was really not that great in pure fighting capabilities anymore, but simply had to be balanced around that skill. That sucks for both mesmers and other classes in some way.

    Portal has had its CD increased. Then decreased because it was so bad noone brought mesmer. Its had its range decreased as well. Any more changes to portal and you may as well stop bringing a mesmer. This is the problem when you have 5 spots on a team and 9 classes. However you still rarely see teams running two mirages in ATs and doing well. Two holosmiths on the other hand.....

    Do you remember what happened with mesmer during HoT? It kept getting gutted and gutted in fighting capabilities, because it always profited from one skill - portal. That sole skill made the class OP. In the end mesmer could hardly duel, but was still mandatory just because of portal. The very same thing is happening right now - we are not there yet, but we are going through the exact same stages as during HoT.

    There needs to be a solution to this - either get rid of portal and not having to balance mesmer around this skill or give it to more classes so the class is mandatory in competitive classes only for this. This way mesmer can finally be balanced only around it's actual fighting capabilities, not just around portal anymore.

    Actually, I'd prefer to get rid of it. I hate the "lol you drove me off far, I'll just set my portal and decap it when you come after me helping mid haha, very skillful" and all these dumb moves. But I'd be fine with both solutions.

    Then mesmer staying ability needs to be greatly increased. Right now the class has little value outside of portal. Its favored in hardly any 1v1s against most specs right now. And its teamfight ability is mesh at best.

    Portal won't be deleted though. After 6 years it's still here.

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    If you play power shatter mirage you don't stack toughness or vitality, but in an hybrid condi build you can and should, since your bursr is melee range you need extra sustain to win the fights.
    What do you mean only bad players die 1x2?

    Power shatter needs to be in melee range for burst as well. Mirror blade only gets more bounces close up and you only damage yourself as a shatter if you are close. Now, certainly you can do damage at range playing power. However, you can do the same with condi as well. Both can do damage at a distance but do more damage at close range.

    But power mirage is good in small groups or duo roaming, because sometimes he is freecasting and get kills pretty easily without being focused, but for solo roaming I don't find it very effective.

    Sure you can get oneshot kills from stealth on unaware target or you can kill noobs pretty fast with it, but against a decent opponent aware of you, who can connect even two good dodges you can't do much.

    Yesterday I was getting south camp in alpine borderlands with other 2 people and i saw Lugolix from Cake Walk coming to us, he went stealth and immediately targeted me, I was standing still faking unaware, he unloaded all the gs burst and shatter on me and I was still 100% health after that, I landed a nice burst condi combo on him and dropped him to 30% health he gave up and escaped into water.

    If i were semi afk or didn't know how to dodge you could see me in his next outnumbered montage, the other 2 guys were core ele and revenant btw😂

  • Lol...

    If i were semi afk or didn't know how to dodge you could see me in his next outnumbered montage, the other 2 guys were core ele and revenant btw😂

    Remind me what been said about Vans : "You kill him 10 times but if he kills you once ... That one would be on video ;) "

  • @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    Lol...

    If i were semi afk or didn't know how to dodge you could see me in his next outnumbered montage, the other 2 guys were core ele and revenant btw😂

    Remind me what been said about Vans : "You kill him 10 times but if he kills you once ... That one would be on video ;) "

    Roaming guilds in general all follow this rule lol

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2018

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    And last but not least: Either make portal way less efficient in PVP or give it to other classes. That is still a major advantage of mesmer and makes it extremely hard to balance. It is - for example - a major reason it was meta throughout HoT. While in the end, condi chrono was really not that great in pure fighting capabilities anymore, but simply had to be balanced around that skill. That sucks for both mesmers and other classes in some way.

    Portal has had its CD increased. Then decreased because it was so bad noone brought mesmer. Its had its range decreased as well. Any more changes to portal and you may as well stop bringing a mesmer. This is the problem when you have 5 spots on a team and 9 classes. However you still rarely see teams running two mirages in ATs and doing well. Two holosmiths on the other hand.....

    Do you remember what happened with mesmer during HoT? It kept getting gutted and gutted in fighting capabilities, because it always profited from one skill - portal. That sole skill made the class OP. In the end mesmer could hardly duel, but was still mandatory just because of portal. The very same thing is happening right now - we are not there yet, but we are going through the exact same stages as during HoT.

    There needs to be a solution to this - either get rid of portal and not having to balance mesmer around this skill or give it to more classes so the class is mandatory in competitive classes only for this. This way mesmer can finally be balanced only around it's actual fighting capabilities, not just around portal anymore.

    Actually, I'd prefer to get rid of it. I hate the "lol you drove me off far, I'll just set my portal and decap it when you come after me helping mid haha, very skillful" and all these dumb moves. But I'd be fine with both solutions.

    Then mesmer staying ability needs to be greatly increased. Right now the class has little value outside of portal. Its favored in hardly any 1v1s against most specs right now. And its teamfight ability is mesh at best.

    Portal won't be deleted though. After 6 years it's still here.

    While I do agree that with it, a lot of nerf suggestions for mesmer would have to be reconsidered - that's the points of me hoping they'd go this way -, I still do think a lot would have to be changed.

    The damage/investment ratio is still too high, the number of conditions has to be adjusted to other condi builds - all of this would go in line with nerfs to other builds of course, holo, overall boonspam, condi clears...

    But yes, we definitely won't see this in PoF. I even doubt they will look at this issue until the next expansion, if even at all. So mesmer will get minor nerfs again and again, because it still remains at the top of the meta - simply because of this one skill. Well, Anet rarely nerfs the appropriate skills though. :tongue:

  • brappish.8715brappish.8715 Member ✭✭✭

    Lmao this game kills me.

    look more bad kids complainging about everything.

    How many more times do I need to repeat the simple fact, players who are pvping, who just so happen to be "meh" at pvp are being desicrated by players who are better and on different classes. Instead of learning from mistakes and overcoming them or atleast accepting they'll never be that good, they come to the forums and complain QQing saying these classes need to be nerfed to the ground because they cant win...Mesmer is OP, Full counter needs to be nerfed, Dead eye keeps one shotting me. its pathetic.

    Heres your participation medal as well.

    Overpowered.

  • brappish.8715brappish.8715 Member ✭✭✭

    @brappish.8715 said:

    Lmao this game kills me.

    look more bad kids complainging about everything.

    How many more times do I need to repeat the simple fact, players who are pvping, who just so happen to be "meh" at pvp are being desicrated by players who are better and on different classes. Instead of learning from mistakes and overcoming them or atleast accepting they'll never be that good, they come to the forums and complain QQing saying these classes need to be nerfed to the ground because they cant win...Mesmer is OP, Full counter needs to be nerfed, Dead eye keeps one shotting me. its pathetic.

    Heres your participation medal as well.

    LMAO heres another one on the same page. SOME ONE HELP THESE PEOPLE THEY CANT WIN AT VIDEO GAMES

    Overpowered.

  • tinyreborn.1938tinyreborn.1938 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2018

    No, just ppl necro'ing threads

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    While I do agree that with it, a lot of nerf suggestions for mesmer would have to be reconsidered - that's the points of me hoping they'd go this way -, I still do think a lot would have to be changed.

    The damage/investment ratio is still too high, the number of conditions has to be adjusted to other condi builds - all of this would go in line with nerfs to other builds of course, holo, overall boonspam, condi clears...

    But yes, we definitely won't see this in PoF. I even doubt they will look at this issue until the next expansion, if even at all. So mesmer will get minor nerfs again and again, because it still remains at the top of the meta - simply because of this one skill. Well, Anet rarely nerfs the appropriate skills though. :tongue:

    Anet one of those devs who never admit their mistakes and dont revert their changes no matter how bad they are

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    Yesterday when I was running core condimes, found 3 people raging on me ...
    Core mes is OP guys !

  • @viquing.8254 said:
    Yesterday when I was running core condimes, found 3 people raging on me ...
    Core mes is OP guys !

    With proper build you have win a lot of ppl because scepter 3 op :' )

  • I feel like condi mes is to PoF as trap dh was to HoT

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • brappish.8715brappish.8715 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    I feel like condi mes is to PoF as trap dh was to HoT

    Honestly theres so much potential for fun but it just makes everyone sour because something gets them killed. D:

    Overpowered.

  • I dont know most of the mirage abilities since i dont have POF but where i find some parts fruastrating is how fast and constant damage just happens along with constant blindness and stuns. Without abilities like spell break to stop the combo strikes, im screwed (which i dont have) there is nothing i can do to even land a strike particularly againt very good players that take two people to kill...

    Playing as a core warrior with 2 swirds and a rilfe (my custom build) most of my chances revolve around landing crit strikes at the moment the guys dodge ends...and invulurabiluty ends...and i have no blindness.

    Id rather face a chrono or core meser cause then i know i have a strike opportunity occassionaly.

  • Luna.6203Luna.6203 Member ✭✭✭

    bump!

    Do not let this topic rot. It's still issue!

    There is absolutely no doubt that class is stupidly op. I dont want to repeat it all over.. there is enough feedback in this thread.

    PLEASE. just ... Can you at least gives us some answers ? You merged many topics into this. You had to read it. There was patch.. nothing happend.. I understand it's not something that can be done over night.

    But do you agree ? Do you plan to do something about it in future ? Or condi mirage supposed to be like this ?

    To be honest. Just say so. Maybe you disagree with this thread? and mirage is fine by you ? Just say yes and ill quietly leave.

    Thanks.

  • Classic Perception.2507Classic Perception.2507 Member ✭✭
    edited November 17, 2018

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    True story:

    For the first time in years, I logged in to get some practice on power/condi Mirage, this was a few days ago. If you look on my pie chart of "classes played" I have so few Mesmer games played that it doesn't even show on the pie chart, not a sliver. <- Keep that in mind.

    I loaded up a couple videos from Shorts to learn how to run Mirage bursting. I did exactly what this guy said to do in the video, I sat for about an hour and blew up a bunch of golems while getting used to power bursting. The power bursting took a real focused effort to become adept with. The power burst is fickle in the idea that, not only is it difficult to do properly to begin with, but if your finger fumbles at all during that burst, it's ruined. Once I was comfortable with the rehearsed 1-shot power burst, I swapped to practice condi bursting. I was immediately surprised at how much less effort was required to land enormous damage with condi. Sure there are optimal ways to land its condi burst but in truth, Condi Mirage can randomly push any buttons in any order while landing enormous AoE damage, and since so much of what it is doing is random AoE, 3/4ths of it's attacks don't even require having a target on an enemy.

    So I felt comfortable on both variants and went to run some unranked. I used Power Mirage first and must have ran 3 or 4 games with it. I killed some, died some, and then won some, lost some. My initial response was that Power Mirage was high risk/high reward and there was no immediate feeling of "man this class is over powered". Then I swapped the build to Condi Mirage. The first couple matches I ran were solo and the 1st thing I noticed was that I did not have to die unless I wanted to or got too greedy. Seriously though, between Portal Entre, Blink, 3x Jaunts, and 2x on demand stealths, there is questionably a bit too much wiggle room for disengagement. The sheer mobility granted through Mirage made it feel like I was playing a different game than Guild Wars 2. Even Thieves require an enemy target for most of their teleports, whereas a Mirage has 4x ground target teleports and Portal Entre. The 2nd thing I noticed is that I could play sloppy as all hell and still kill everyone that I engaged 1v1, with no real counter builds out there that the Condi Mirage couldn't handle or deal with. I'd just go in directly at them regardless of class and spam buttons as I tested different combos and they'd eventually go down due to the 3rd thing I noticed, my ridiculous level of burst and attrition. Other classes have burst or attrition, but Condi Mirage has burst and attrition. This was assisted by the 4th thing I noticed, its confusing mechanics by design. Most players, even the ones who would be competent to play against me on other classes, would just fumble targeting accuracy and timing, applying little to no offensive pressure, while the 100% uptime of heavy attrition would inevitably eat away at them because no class outside of Spellbreaker can deal with the condition application paired with consistent power damage. I felt that the mechanical value of deception offered from cycling clones, dropping enemy targeting, stealthing and superior disengagement was being highly underacknowledged by the players who defend Mirage. The 5th and most important thing that I noticed was how I could win outmanned fights, 1v2s and even one 1v3 on that particular night, while straight up 100% disengaging and playing defensively. This is something that no other class can do in quite the same way that Mirage can do it. Not only do other classes have less mobility than Mirage and a lot less stun break, but they require dedicated attack frames to land their damage. Mirage on the other, can 100% defensively retreat while spamming shatter skills whenever someone gets close to them, and then keep retreating with no real dedication towards stopping to actually engage an opponent. There was an instance in one match where I had 3 players chasing me around a far node in Skyhammer. Over the course of time, I was able to kill each player through superior mobility and waiting for opportune moments to land an easy no-dedication burst and keep running. I would have died on any other class, even a Holosmith. The 6th and final somewhat notable thing that I noticed is that even as a novice Mirage, it was incredibly easy to land into the middle of a team fight, drop a massive 4 shatter condi bomb and then completely disengage the fight with zero risk involved. Whereas on something like a Scourge or a Condi Ranger or even a Trap DH, ect.. ect.., heading into the middle of a team fight to drop a DPS bomb is a real dedication. You either win that fight or you die trying after the dedication, there are no get out of jail free cards outside of a tactful team retreat or awkwardly peeling and leaving your team behind early. I must have played 9 or 10 games on Condi Mirage that night. I won most of them but not all of them, but I kitten sure only died once on that build, and it only happened when I was meme /emoting the other team and eventually 4x players figured they'd chase me and kill me.

    After a week's worth of playing and catching up on the knowledge of all of the class metas, my response to Condi Mirage was "It feels like I'm the kitten Terminator when I play this class." In my opinion, it is inherently the most powerful class not due to the mathematical attributes tied around its skills & traits but due to it's mechanical design within the game engine. Hey, I'm not going to sit here and tell you how OP it is or what nerfs/buffs could be done to it, but I would like to compare it to other current builds being used within the S13 end season meta so users in this forum can see a better representation of what is actually going on.

    I'll use a class grading system that ranges between (F) and (S). The grades will be applied to 4x basic Conquest attributes: DPS, Self Sustain, Mobility, Team Support/Utility.

    Spellbreaker:
    * DPS (A-)
    * Self Sustain (S+)
    * Mobility (B+)
    * Team Support/Utility (C) "Its CCs do contribute to utility in team fights"

    Herald:
    * DPS (S)
    * Self Sustain (B)
    * Mobility (C+) while rotating, (A+) if chasing
    * Team Support/Utility (B+)

    Firebrand:
    * DPS (D+)
    * Self Sustain (A) "He can't 1v2 in the same way that something like a Spellbreaker can do"
    * Mobility (C+)
    * Team Support/Utility (S+)

    Core Guardian:
    * DPS (S) on JI bursts, (A-) on sustained DPS
    * Self Sustain (A) "I wouldn't grant it an S because once Renewed Focus is on CD, he's a sitting duck"
    * Mobility (C) while rotating, (B+) while chasing
    * Team Support/Utility (D-)

    Holosmith:
    * DPS (S) "I ranked it S not out of numerics but rather how easy it is to land and follow up with chain attacks"
    * Self Sustain (A+) "Regardless of its sustain 1v1, I give it only A+ because it cannot survive 1v2 focus in the same way as a Spellbreaker or Mirage"
    * Mobility (B) when rotating, (B+) when chasing
    * Team Support/Utility (S) "I give it an S because of so many CCs, blasting water fields, splashing boons, and team stealth mechanics"

    Soulbeast:
    * DPS (S++) if glass cannon roamer, (A-) if bruiser
    * Self Sustain (C) if glass cannon roamer, (B+) if bruiser
    * Mobility (A-) if glass cannon roamer, (B-) if bruiser
    * Team Support/Utility (E+) if glass cannon roamer, (B-) if running boonshare

    Deadeyes & Daredevils:
    * DPS (S++) if DE burst, (S-) Daredevil
    * Self Sustain (D) if DE burst, (C+) Daredevil
    * Mobility (S)
    * Team Support/Utility (E+)

    Reapers & Scourges:
    * DPS (S+) Reaper, (B+) Scourge
    * Self Sustain (B+) Reaper "he can't survive 1v2s", (B-) Scourge
    * Mobility (C-) Reaper, (C+) Scourge "Worm/Walk/Portal could debatably raise these grades"
    * Team Support/Utility (C-) Reaper "It does have some boon removal", (A-) Scourge

    Weaver:
    * DPS (A)
    * Self Sustain (A+) "The barrier play just isn't as strong as some would want to believe it is. I don't feel it deserves an S"
    * Mobility (B)
    * Team Support/Utility (C+)

    Power & Condi Mirages:
    * DPS (S++) with accurate power burst but only (B) with sustained power damage, it gets (S+) with sustained Condi Mirage bursting & attrition
    * Self Sustain (C) for Power and (S) for Condi
    * Mobility (S+) when on either build while using Portal/Blink/Jaunt
    * Team Support/Utility (A) with Portal Entre "The rotational control that Portal Entre grants is worth an A by itself"

    Let's sum up this grading into an easier to view list:

    • Spellbreaker: dps(A-) sus(S+) mob(B+) sup/uti(C)
    • Herald: dps(S) sus(B) mob(C+ or A+) sup/uti(B+)
    • Firebrand: dps(D+) sus(A) mob(C+) sup/uti(S+)
    • Core Guard: dps(S) sus(A) mob(C or B+) sup/uti(D-)
    • Holosmith: dps(S) sus(A+) mob(B or B+) sup/uti(S)
    • Soulbeast Roamer: dps(S++) sus(C) mob(A-) sup/uti(E+)
    • Soulbeast Bruiser: dps(A-) sus(B+) mob(B-) sup/uti(B-)
    • Deadeye: dps(S++) sus(D) mob(S) sup/uti(E+)
    • Daredevil: dps(S-) sus(C+) mob(S) sup/uti(E+)
    • Reaper: dps(S+) sus(B+) mob(C-) sup/uti(C-)
    • Scourge: dps(B+) sus(B-) mob(C+) sup/uti(A-)
    • Weaver: dps(A) sus(A+) mob(B) sup/uti(C+)
    • Power Mirage: dps(S++) sus(C) mob(S+) sup/uti(A)
    • Condi Mirage: dps(S+) sus(S) mob(S+) sup/uti(A)

    That isn't all, there is one other aspect that greatly effects a build's diversity in Conquest and in my opinion is the aspect that creates most of the argument in this forum as to "if a build is over powered or not" and that is, how easy is it to play? I won't go into another list of grading "You're welcome" but I will point two extreme examples: A Daredevil playing in plat+ divisions cannot afford to make a single error or he dies, whereas something like a Condi Mirage can actually afford to play sloppy, still pose a serious threat to whoever he engages, and escape to ooc on-demand as he wishes. Now we can argue how different play is between lower tiers, medium tiers and high tiers and some of it is true, but a lot of it is just a bunch of gobble kitten from biased players.

    But yeah, in my opinion Condi Mirage is still easily the dominant class in Conquest and that is how it would be graded alongside of the others. I figured I'd share the story & analysis with the other forum users. Draw from it what you will.

    Everything in this. The problem with mirage is that it does everything extremely well when every other classes have to trade something (revenant insane damage, no condi clear/very situational heal, necro insane power/condi damage, very low mobility/disengage,etc.). The other problem is that not only does it do it well, but it can do it so frequently. You can dodge 1 burst, 2 burst, block another one...it just keeps on coming.

    I'm not going to say holosmith isn't broken because I think it is. But to all the people saying mirage isn't broken, it's just full on bad faith.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    The main problem is probably the never ending gap between good player (10-20 %?) and plebs (80%?).
    Is the first case, mesmer look more like garbage because apart portal, it has very few teamfight options, his burst is miles away from real burst class who do same burst damage in twice less clics and with twice less CD , it can't anticap point versus every other sideholder class, there is better for win 1v1, for +1, etc. (which everyone can see in AT,mAT,leaderboard.)
    In the second case, mesmer is "the most op broken class in this game" who do 1v5 with only one hand on keyboard.

    So if the solution is : make mesmer a punching ball so that evry oister with a 3 sec reaction delay can kill it with passive autoproc and random aoe.
    The answer is : it's not a solution because you will get farmed anyway by mesmers rerolling on more cheesy class.

  • xp eke xp.6724xp eke xp.6724 Member ✭✭
    edited November 17, 2018

    @ Classic Perception

    Mirage has some weaknesses:

    • sustain (5-6k heal all 30 sec, low regen)
    • burst. Hit 2x under 30 sec and you break his defense. If he plays well he try to leave/kitte cause he gets on +1 range
    • they have 1 save burst if you're not only meele
    • bad holder cause he needs to use distance and evades at a fight

    Means he will maybe survive a 1v1 but he looses a cap or get low -> thats why he tries to go duells on enermie point or decaped

    Timing is necessary, like on most classes but cause his bursts are obvious the class is pretty easy to counter. At the point you learn it, he do less dmg then you can heal passive/ with 6k heal each 20 sec.

    So he can only hit badly by a second player helping him or if you do a misstake.

    Power mirrage is a bigger thread, cause he has more options for a save burst...

    The important part is learning to use your own sustain. Otherwise it's like you love to eat unessesary dmg. On that all things will work against you as long the other player abuse it.

    So you will also have troble against:

    • burnguard
    • coreguard
    • dh
    • support fb
    • condiberserk
    • power bersek
    • core warrior
    • power rev
    • condi rev
    • soulbeast
    • druid
    • trapper ranger
    • de
    • dd
    • condi thief
    • core thief
    • dodgethief
    • core engie
    • hollow
    • core necro
    • mm
    • ...

    Means you struggle against all classes as long they do more dmg then you heal back, cause you just don't react on the key dmg they have.

    Even supports pressure you, cause just a little trashdmg from a fight gets you on your breakpoint ...

    At end we got a bad reaction time of some players, pls balance it by yourself ;)

    Btw. If we want to rank all classes like true story, we need some other points:

    • Dps
    • save dps
    • burst
    • save burst
    • sustain condi
    • sustain power
    • kite sustain
    • mobility
    • support debuffs
    • support buffs
    • support pressure
    • counterkite
    • situation

    Maybe i miss some minor points, but they are only needed if you want to difference them more. After that we can take the list small again cause we teach a base knowledge ;)

  • xp eke xp.6724xp eke xp.6724 Member ✭✭
    edited November 17, 2018

    Small eg.
    Let's say a power berserk warrior has on our ranking a dps and burst of A+

    How would look his save dps/ burst? His save dps will be a C-
    And his burst a C

    Why?
    Cause he is meele only, so you can kite him
    He has only unsave bursts
    You can easy reduce his dmg with debuffs/ buffs/ counterpressure

    Ofc on teamfights his dmg and burst will grew a little:
    Cause you use a big part of the defense, for checking him => less defense against other enemies, if you don't leave.

    That's just a eg., to get an idea how to rate the classes and that you can't take the rating without knowing the minor aspects of it.

  • I wouldnt take this bs statistic taken from his own head into consideration ever . Doubt anyone would .

  • Luna.6203Luna.6203 Member ✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:
    The main problem is probably the never ending gap between good player (10-20 %?) and plebs (80%?).

    This topic is not about experienced vs new player. It's completely different topic.
    By insulting 80% people by calling them noobs... not directly ...still it's just not argument.

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Is the first case, mesmer look more like garbage because apart portal, it has very few teamfight options, his burst is miles away from real burst class who do same burst damage in twice less clics and with twice less CD , it can't anticap point versus every other sideholder class, there is better for win 1v1, for +1, etc. (which everyone can see in AT,mAT,leaderboard.)

    Maybe mirage burst isn't no.1 still its amongst top and unlike others classes that have to sacrifice survivability for proper damage mirage can have top burst and top defence at same time.. plus top mobility and utility.

    @viquing.8254 said:
    In the second case, mesmer is "the most op broken class in this game" who do 1v5 with only one hand on keyboard.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60730/mesmers-most-broken-class-in-this-game ?

    I thing mesmer is a lot easier and lot more powerful since you can have 3 clones and 3 illusions at same time.

    @viquing.8254 said:
    So if the solution is : make mesmer a punching ball so that evry oister with a 3 sec reaction delay can kill it with passive autoproc and random aoe.
    The answer is : it's not a solution because you will get farmed anyway by mesmers rerolling on more cheesy class.

    I get it: You play mesmer so it not broken. Others are just noobs. and bla bla.. I'm really tired of this. I just would like to know if ANET going to do something about it or not. So i can decide if i want to continue play or not.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    @Luna.6203 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    The main problem is probably the never ending gap between good player (10-20 %?) and plebs (80%?).

    This topic is not about experienced vs new player. It's completely different topic.
    By insulting 80% people by calling them noobs... not directly ...still it's just not argument.

    Because people crying about mesmers since 2012 aren't insulting at all, of course.
    And yeah I am insulting them because they came here and babycry only because of their feelings (like if I feel I should kill gards in 0.25 second today, hmm.), we don't know which class they play, which build they play, and so on whereas it's easy to look at AT finals streams.

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Is the first case, mesmer look more like garbage because apart portal, it has very few teamfight options, his burst is miles away from real burst class who do same burst damage in twice less clics and with twice less CD , it can't anticap point versus every other sideholder class, there is better for win 1v1, for +1, etc. (which everyone can see in AT,mAT,leaderboard.)

    Maybe mirage burst isn't no.1 still its amongst top and unlike others classes that have to sacrifice survivability for proper damage mirage can have top burst and top defence at same time.. plus top mobility and utility.

    LOL ?!
    Half other meta class have 25 perma might + plethora of boons that make even the tankiest mender build a high dps pressure build literally low risk high reward.
    Which other class have to sacrifice something ?? They have the tools to temporise anything or trait for it while still having high pressure output.

    @viquing.8254 said:
    In the second case, mesmer is "the most op broken class in this game" who do 1v5 with only one hand on keyboard.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60730/mesmers-most-broken-class-in-this-game ?

    I thing mesmer is a lot easier and lot more powerful since you can have 3 clones and 3 illusions at same time.

    clone = 1 sec life duration versus 80% of situations.
    even versus class who don't have high cleave/aoe, it's easy to kite.
    Phantasm are bad when you compare their cast time and CD compared to some skills that can output 5-8 k damage with half cast time and fewer CD on other meta class.

    @viquing.8254 said:
    So if the solution is : make mesmer a punching ball so that evry oister with a 3 sec reaction delay can kill it with passive autoproc and random aoe.
    The answer is : it's not a solution because you will get farmed anyway by mesmers rerolling on more cheesy class.

    I get it: You play mesmer so it not broken. Others are just noobs. and bla bla.. I'm really tired of this. I just would like to know if ANET going to do something about it or not. So i can decide if i want to continue play or not.

    I get it : You don't play mesmer and one kill you, so it's broken. Mesmers main have biased opinion . and blabla ... I'm really tired of this. I just would like to know if ANET going to do sometyhing about it or not.... (aka put some PvP stats out comparing mesmer efficiency ratio in high level and mid/low level so that we can move to something else.)

  • Luna.6203Luna.6203 Member ✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Luna.6203 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    The main problem is probably the never ending gap between good player (10-20 %?) and plebs (80%?).

    This topic is not about experienced vs new player. It's completely different topic.
    By insulting 80% people by calling them noobs... not directly ...still it's just not argument.

    Because people crying about mesmers since 2012 aren't insulting at all, of course.
    And yeah I am insulting them because they came here and babycry only because of their feelings (like if I feel I should kill gards in 0.25 second today, hmm.), we don't know which class they play, which build they play, and so on whereas it's easy to look at AT finals streams.

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Is the first case, mesmer look more like garbage because apart portal, it has very few teamfight options, his burst is miles away from real burst class who do same burst damage in twice less clics and with twice less CD , it can't anticap point versus every other sideholder class, there is better for win 1v1, for +1, etc. (which everyone can see in AT,mAT,leaderboard.)

    Maybe mirage burst isn't no.1 still its amongst top and unlike others classes that have to sacrifice survivability for proper damage mirage can have top burst and top defence at same time.. plus top mobility and utility.

    LOL ?!
    Half other meta class have 25 perma might + plethora of boons that make even the tankiest mender build a high dps pressure build literally low risk high reward.
    Which other class have to sacrifice something ?? They have the tools to temporise anything or trait for it while still having high pressure output.

    @viquing.8254 said:
    In the second case, mesmer is "the most op broken class in this game" who do 1v5 with only one hand on keyboard.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60730/mesmers-most-broken-class-in-this-game ?

    I thing mesmer is a lot easier and lot more powerful since you can have 3 clones and 3 illusions at same time.

    clone = 1 sec life duration versus 80% of situations.
    even versus class who don't have high cleave/aoe, it's easy to kite.
    Phantasm are bad when you compare their cast time and CD compared to some skills that can output 5-8 k damage with half cast time and fewer CD on other meta class.

    @viquing.8254 said:
    So if the solution is : make mesmer a punching ball so that evry oister with a 3 sec reaction delay can kill it with passive autoproc and random aoe.
    The answer is : it's not a solution because you will get farmed anyway by mesmers rerolling on more cheesy class.

    I get it: You play mesmer so it not broken. Others are just noobs. and bla bla.. I'm really tired of this. I just would like to know if ANET going to do something about it or not. So i can decide if i want to continue play or not.

    I get it : You don't play mesmer and one kill you, so it's broken. Mesmers main have biased opinion . and blabla ... I'm really tired of this. I just would like to know if ANET going to do sometyhing about it or not.... (aka put some PvP stats out comparing mesmer efficiency ratio in high level and mid/low level so that we can move to something else.)

    ... No comment. You just wasting my time.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    Thanks, hope to never see you again in a "mesmer is op" thread.

  • @Luna.6203 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Luna.6203 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    The main problem is probably the never ending gap between good player (10-20 %?) and plebs (80%?).

    This topic is not about experienced vs new player. It's completely different topic.
    By insulting 80% people by calling them noobs... not directly ...still it's just not argument.

    Because people crying about mesmers since 2012 aren't insulting at all, of course.
    And yeah I am insulting them because they came here and babycry only because of their feelings (like if I feel I should kill gards in 0.25 second today, hmm.), we don't know which class they play, which build they play, and so on whereas it's easy to look at AT finals streams.

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Is the first case, mesmer look more like garbage because apart portal, it has very few teamfight options, his burst is miles away from real burst class who do same burst damage in twice less clics and with twice less CD , it can't anticap point versus every other sideholder class, there is better for win 1v1, for +1, etc. (which everyone can see in AT,mAT,leaderboard.)

    Maybe mirage burst isn't no.1 still its amongst top and unlike others classes that have to sacrifice survivability for proper damage mirage can have top burst and top defence at same time.. plus top mobility and utility.

    LOL ?!
    Half other meta class have 25 perma might + plethora of boons that make even the tankiest mender build a high dps pressure build literally low risk high reward.
    Which other class have to sacrifice something ?? They have the tools to temporise anything or trait for it while still having high pressure output.

    @viquing.8254 said:
    In the second case, mesmer is "the most op broken class in this game" who do 1v5 with only one hand on keyboard.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60730/mesmers-most-broken-class-in-this-game ?

    I thing mesmer is a lot easier and lot more powerful since you can have 3 clones and 3 illusions at same time.

    clone = 1 sec life duration versus 80% of situations.
    even versus class who don't have high cleave/aoe, it's easy to kite.
    Phantasm are bad when you compare their cast time and CD compared to some skills that can output 5-8 k damage with half cast time and fewer CD on other meta class.

    @viquing.8254 said:
    So if the solution is : make mesmer a punching ball so that evry oister with a 3 sec reaction delay can kill it with passive autoproc and random aoe.
    The answer is : it's not a solution because you will get farmed anyway by mesmers rerolling on more cheesy class.

    I get it: You play mesmer so it not broken. Others are just noobs. and bla bla.. I'm really tired of this. I just would like to know if ANET going to do something about it or not. So i can decide if i want to continue play or not.

    I get it : You don't play mesmer and one kill you, so it's broken. Mesmers main have biased opinion . and blabla ... I'm really tired of this. I just would like to know if ANET going to do sometyhing about it or not.... (aka put some PvP stats out comparing mesmer efficiency ratio in high level and mid/low level so that we can move to something else.)

    ... No comment. You just wasting my time.

    You wasting your own time * ironically...
    Aside from you will not be missed. U could spend this time to learn class and play it yourself .If you dont want then byebye xd

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