Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged] - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]

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  • Mirage need a bit of DAMAGE removed

  • @MLGKorno.5419 said:
    This thread and everyone crying about conditions mirage or mirage in general after the most recent patch...?
    I have some bad news for you...
    It is entirely a learn to play issue.

    If this thread had been made back in april or something then I wouldn't be saying this.

    Let's establish first that mirage's offensive AND defensive capabilities largely depend on how much it can evade, because Ambush skills are only available to use after you use a dodge on mirage, condi clear also happens at the end of a mirage dodge, etc. so whenever the ability to dodge on mirage is affected, the entire class gets nerfed instead of just its defense being reduced (if you nerf dodges on another class it doesn't affect how much damage they do for the most part)

    The most recent patch nerfed mirage evasion to being worse than necro's evasion. Exhaustion continues for 6 seconds after breaking a stun with Elusive Mind. That's a ridiculously heavy nerf to mirage evasion that piles on top of multiple previous patches this summer/spring to mirage evasion.
    Mirage went from pretty overpowered to weak. The only thing you have is target drops and confusion/torment which punishes spam and careless randoms who just piano their skills then go on the forums to cry for even more nerfs.

    Besides the most recent patch, mirage evasion capabilities have already been nerfed repeatedly the past 4 patches.
    Jaunt CD was increased to 30s from 20s. blurred frenzy, a key skill, was nerfed to only evade for 1 second.
    Vigor was cut down by more than half of its old uptime to being basically nonexistent.
    Adventure runes were gutted, they were a huge part of mirage's evasion.
    Confusion duration was nerfed multiple times to the point that you can now just wait out the confusion while taking very little damage.
    Also, don't forget that confusion was changed to not deal any damage anymore unless you actually use a skill while having it, whereas in the past you would take ticking damage regardless of if you used a skill while having confusion.

    Different iterations of the current Mirage get hard countered by different holo builds in 1v1s as of right now. If you are losing to mirages on holosmith, it's on you.
    Mesmer in general is just worse than things like holo or soulbeast in both duels and obviously team fights (mesmer never was that good at team fights at any point in the games history), it's only really 'viable competitively' because of portal.

    I suggest you just stop moving unnecessarily when you get torment, and stop spamming skills and downing yourselves with confusion.

    Gonna have to agree with almost everything you said. I've had a a ridiculously easier time dealing with mesmers than I ever have playing this game ever. Yeah sure they still have a lingering amount of confusion that seems to just kinda be there after their burst goes off and either youre alive or they're alive.

    If you're alive you probably won the duel an the mesmer is gassed and probably retreating and juking waiting for cooldowns

    If you're in the downed state than the mesmer won the duel and that's OK also

  • Spartacus.3192Spartacus.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2018

    @jportell.2197 said:
    What's funny is the higher in rankings you get. The less mirage players you see over all. 🤷🤷🤷

    Newsflash. ANET doesn't just balance based on what is played at high tiers. If that was the case Trapper DH would never have been nerfed all those seasons ago. It got nerfed because at low tiers it was an absolute noob stomper and really easy to play.....sound familiar?

    Oh and Trapper DH was never used by pro players or at least extremely rare. It never got a place in any ESL teams.

  • Kako.1930Kako.1930 Member ✭✭✭

    If a Condi Mesmer loses to anything else 1v1, that's the real l2p issue lol. Winning 1v1 against anything is completely easymode on condi mes unless you've been seriously outplayed. Even after all the nerfs.

  • @Kako.1930 said:
    If a Condi Mesmer loses to anything else 1v1, that's the real l2p issue lol. Winning 1v1 against anything is completely easymode on condi mes unless you've been seriously outplayed. Even after all the nerfs.

    You are one of those who need to learn to play if you think mirage win 1x1 everything

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    @Spartacus.3192 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:
    What's funny is the higher in rankings you get. The less mirage players you see over all. 🤷🤷🤷

    Newsflash. ANET doesn't just balance based on what is played at high tiers. If that was the case Trapper DH would never have been nerfed all those seasons ago. It got nerfed because at low tiers it was an absolute noob stomper and really easy to play.....sound familiar?

    Oh and Trapper DH was never used by pro players or at least extremely rare. It never got a place in any ESL teams.

    Okay but it’s a matter of precedent.
    Low tiers struggled with a .25 cast followed by a very fast unblockable projectile. It was like going back to old warrior pin down which was nerfed long before, difference was the follow up for DH landing this was a very powerful burst that even denied mobility classes and was an easy answer to blocks.

    Expecting people to avoid shatters by comparison, is something that players more or less have learned to deal with far before HoT came out, is not an unreasonable expectation for new players to learn to get over. It’s literally kiteable, killable, and blockable damage, where all the burst is loaded into that hit and only needs a doge in the right direction to mitigate all of it, unlike DH that has extended cleaving hurt boxes.

    Shatters are more easy to avoid although being based on technical design can throw newbies off, but also comes with pleanty of counter play.

    DH demanded a higher level of play to consistently avoid getting hit. On top of that having other options beyond re-ramping (including ignoring walls) if they whiffed.

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    I am not a very good player, but I am probably correct, so harvest my wisdom peasants.

    I speculate that condi mirage is only good at killing average players / noobs. Fighting against a condi mirage correctly is very different than fighting against other classes because of the synergy of mirage cloak, condi & torment bombs.

    Fools be killing themselves by running around and trying to blast the mirage player while he's in an almost perma evade mode condi bombing you with confusion/torment. Not only are you wasting your cooldowns, you're also killing yourself.

    It is pretty counter-intuitive - where at certain points of the fight, the optimal move is just sit there, stow your weapon and do nothing. Obviously you have to pick the right times to cleanse/dodge/attack back, you must apply some counter-pressure.

  • Kako.1930Kako.1930 Member ✭✭✭

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @Kako.1930 said:
    If a Condi Mesmer loses to anything else 1v1, that's the real l2p issue lol. Winning 1v1 against anything is completely easymode on condi mes unless you've been seriously outplayed. Even after all the nerfs.

    You are one of those who need to learn to play if you think mirage win 1x1 everything

    Well, I mean, on my mirage I don't struggle much.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2018

    All of the two above! ^

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How Can you die 1v1 as a condi mirage? Worst Comes to worst, reset, rince & repeat.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    What build did you look at on weaver to get simultaneously DPS (A) and sustain (A+)? Usually to increase damage they have to trait Air instead of water and get extremely vulnerable to conditions (and slightly more to direct damage due to less healing and less evades). Neither Avatar nor Sage on Water/Arcane Weaver do even remotely as much damage as scourge. On the other hand, maybe an S would be deserved - but weaver suffers in the current meta indeed. Didn't try Earth/Arcane this season though.

    Yes, I got triggered by this. :tongue: Apart from this I pretty much agree with most of the list. Some nuances I would've done differently, but overall nice list. :+1:

    On higher tier games, mirage does not win all 1on1 matchups anymore though. But - and it's a big one - mirage can pretty much never get killed due to stealth, various teleports and stuff, disengaging and kiting is extremely easy. That is lowest risk - as you very correctly pointed out.

    €: Also totally agree with @Vicariuz.1605...

  • DragonFury.6243DragonFury.6243 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    I started playing gw2 about a year and a half and saw a lot of very helpful post from players but do anet actually read that ? That is the question
    Second I see player complain about PvP being stressful well it's a challenging game mode it supposed to be stressful same as raid and CMs but the community and unfair balance make some profession want on my team tier and some just hate to see them in your party and that is just unhelpful at all

  • incisorr.9502incisorr.9502 Member ✭✭✭

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    How Can you die 1v1 as a condi mirage? Worst Comes to worst, reset, rince & repeat.

    and then you lose the point an the game

    or you get ganked and die

    or you over-commit cause your enemy is low hp and die instead

    how can you kill anyone as condi mirage if they just press W and use condi removals and heals? you can't. unless you don't play with staff cause staff is bad and then you can but you can also die in every other situation without staff cus you have no protection

    ITT: low elo non-mesmer players talking about a class they don't understand and blaming their shortcomings on the game instead themselves

    i dont die to condi mirages cus i have condi removal, why don't you? Condi mirage has 2ways it can apply a ton of condis
    1: ineptitude shatter spam - shatters have cd, if he does that and you remove his condis he wont have it any time soon
    2: infinite horizon illusions spam - he has limited stamina, if he uses his stuff and you cleanse it he wont have stamina for awhile

    everything else is slow condi application which has much lower dps than power builds do

    tl;dr l2p, condi mirage isn't even remotely near the meta

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @incisorr.9502 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    How Can you die 1v1 as a condi mirage? Worst Comes to worst, reset, rince & repeat.

    and then you lose the point an the game

    or you get ganked and die

    or you over-commit cause your enemy is low hp and die instead

    how can you kill anyone as condi mirage if they just press W and use condi removals and heals? you can't. unless you don't play with staff cause staff is bad and then you can but you can also die in every other situation without staff cus you have no protection

    ITT: low elo non-mesmer players talking about a class they don't understand and blaming their shortcomings on the game instead themselves

    i dont die to condi mirages cus i have condi removal, why don't you? Condi mirage has 2ways it can apply a ton of condis
    1: ineptitude shatter spam - shatters have cd, if he does that and you remove his condis he wont have it any time soon
    2: infinite horizon illusions spam - he has limited stamina, if he uses his stuff and you cleanse it he wont have stamina for awhile

    everything else is slow condi application which has much lower dps than power builds do

    tl;dr l2p, condi mirage isn't even remotely near the meta

    Mirage isn't the only spec to die if ganked. It even has more tools to disengage than most meta builds out there. I never complained dying to conditions, but mechanicaly mirage has many tools to survive any 1v1. Losing a cap temporarily is no Big deal if you Can secure a kill then move on After recap. I'm not complaining about condi mirage, all i'm saying is that condi mirages shouldn't be the ones to complain.

  • Just example from my personal experience

    When I start playing pvp - was frustrated about condi mirage. Illusions/escape/damage and stunbreak on dodge -> Created Mirage mesmer and joined Heart of The Mistst -> Que unranked - > 450k damage/top kills just randomly pressing buttons

    Ofc I was against not experienced players.. but cmon. 450k damage just randomly pressing buttons? :DD

    In my opinion anet should balance classes for average players. And totally agree with author - condi mesmer have too much

  • Zawn.9647Zawn.9647 Member ✭✭✭

    lol... tldr?

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    @ChartFish.1308 said:
    So rare to see people actually play a class to truly see how it works instead of just screaming OP. It's easy to disregard someone who just complains on face value. It's hard to disregard someone who said they can wreck kitten on a class they've barely played.

    You've got my respect for that. It was a good read.

    It doesn't take a genius to know when something is op when you've played sPVP pretty much since launch, even it you've barely played the class. There are advantages and drawbacks to every meta build as OP detailed with his rating system. Even though I never played mesmer in sPVP pre HoT I still eventually learned how to beat it through there practice and perseverance. When spellbreaker (and most of POF elite specs) first came out I was frustrated at the inability of any non-PoF build to combat them. Now, however, Spellbreakers and the like aren't a problem to fight on even a Berserker (elite spec) for me. Condi Mirage however is still just as frustrating and impossible to fight a year into the xpac. I understand that some match-ups I'm not supposed to be able to win while using a specific build. In those cases I cut my losses and retreat to an area of the map were I can have a better match up. Problems arise though, when you know you're dead even when you've started retreating because the condi mirage sees you from over 1200 range away and decides to engage. At least if a condi thief decides to engage you from that distance, it has to use up it's initiative on SB 6 or its shadow step or a one-off steal with 17 sec cd or so. This leaves the thief much less initiative for choking gas to pressure you.

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    I will believe that mirage is OP when I see the leaderboards being dominated by mirages. Until then stop crying for nerfs.

    So you're saying you only care about the fun had by players on the leaderboards? If so, that sounds pretty selfish.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:

    I will believe that mirage is OP when I see the leaderboards being dominated by mirages. Until then stop crying for nerfs.

    So you're saying you only care about the fun had by players on the leaderboards? If so, that sounds pretty selfish.

    No what I'm saying is a class shouldn't be gutted based on forum posts. When looking at what is actually overperforming ANET needs to look at metrics. As in what is overrepresented in the highest levels of ranked. Sick of my class getting nerfed because bronze/silver players cant figure out how to deal.

    You have access to the stats?

    Because "Bro, they told me on discord their main, and besides they are in my guild....I know them" ?

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    No what I'm saying is a class shouldn't be gutted based on forum posts. When looking at what is actually overperforming ANET needs to look at metrics. As in what is overrepresented in the highest levels of ranked. Sick of my class getting nerfed because bronze/silver players cant figure out how to deal.

    "Sick of MY class . . . " so the truth comes out. I'm plat btw.

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭

    @jportell.2197 said:
    No what I'm saying is a class shouldn't be gutted based on forum posts. When looking at what is actually overperforming ANET needs to look at metrics. As in what is overrepresented in the highest levels of ranked. Sick of my class getting nerfed because bronze/silver players cant figure out how to deal.

    You can't balance purely on the top; everyone else will quit, and the game will die.
    Case in point: Turret engi from before HoT. Top players didn't mind it and actually liked seeing an opposing one because they knew how to exploit its weaknesses. But 90% of the playerbase was incredibly frustrated by its ultra low risk / high reward gameplay.

    You need balance at all levels of play. The top needs finer balance, but you can't let glaring problems for 90% of the players run amok either.

  • EnderzShadow.2506EnderzShadow.2506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    Trevor Boyer.6524
    Nice write up.

    mhm, ok, sure, whatever you say, no after you, I insist, no really, please, be my guest,

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @Exedore.6320 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:
    No what I'm saying is a class shouldn't be gutted based on forum posts. When looking at what is actually overperforming ANET needs to look at metrics. As in what is overrepresented in the highest levels of ranked. Sick of my class getting nerfed because bronze/silver players cant figure out how to deal.

    You can't balance purely on the top; everyone else will quit, and the game will die.
    Case in point: Turret engi from before HoT. Top players didn't mind it and actually liked seeing an opposing one because they knew how to exploit its weaknesses. But 90% of the playerbase was incredibly frustrated by its ultra low risk / high reward gameplay.

    You need balance at all levels of play. The top needs finer balance, but you can't let glaring problems for 90% of the players run amok either.

    Yes and condi mirage is still not nearly as cancerous as turret engi was. Not even close.

    Condi mirage has plenty of counters.

    Condi mirage can put out reliably 2-3 damaging condis, torment, confusion, bleed, and burn on long CDS. Most classes can cleanse these very easily.

    This spec has been nerfed, then nerfed again, had traits completely gutted, duration of conditioins reduced, then reduced again.
    If you nerf the sustain that it has through target breaking and stealth, you better give it the uptime on boons and condi cleanse of other classes.
    I actually enjoy fighting condi mirage because usually the ones who try rolling it are people like those here, that think its SOOOOOO easy and brain dead. With the nerfs to ineptitude, and confusion as a whole this class is still not the best even when it comes to condis.

  • Luna.6203Luna.6203 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    • Self Sustain (D) if DE burst, (C+) Daredevil

    I'm not sure about this.. you can't kill what you can't see...

  • witcher.3197witcher.3197 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:
    There was a small discussion about it on stream this morning, where power mesmer was compared to "cheese p/p thief where you press 1 button all day" by a dev

    What stream? Can you PM me a VOD of that if I ask nicely?

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Going to nitpick on daredevil support should be atleast a B+ with having the best access to group stealth for engages with blackpowder + clusterbomb spam + blinding powder. Additionally trickery steal is the best way to reliably interrupt key skills like firebrand signet res and signet of agility is a decent group condi cleanse. Absolutely not an E+ rating.

  • MikeL.8260MikeL.8260 Member ✭✭✭

    A couple of things I picked from this Thread and wanted to comment on;

    Portal and it's usefulness. I have never seen proper use of portal in solo que, by picking it up myself I always find it to be utterly useless except in very few cases where it helped me make some good plays - solo plays.

    And about balancing around high divisions. What it means is..
    ''To use the knowledge of high ranking players to improve class balance''.
    What exactly do you find wrong in that sentence?

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @MikeL.8260 said:
    A couple of things I picked from this Thread and wanted to comment on;

    Portal and it's usefulness. I have never seen proper use of portal in solo que, by picking it up myself I always find it to be utterly useless except in very few cases where it helped me make some good plays - solo plays.

    And about balancing around high divisions. What it means is..
    ''To use the knowledge of high ranking players to improve class balance''.
    What exactly do you find wrong in that sentence?

    I personally find mirage advance to be much better in soloque. The blind plus teleport and break Target on return are just too good. It's helped me manage a couple of 2v1s.

    To the second point I absolutely agree. Most higher level players I go against seem to have no problem when dealing with my condis. It seems to be a forum warrior issue.

  • Aktium.9506Aktium.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    remov mesmer

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524

    "let me quote myself from a previous thread of yours" - I was quoting myself, in one of the other threads you started.

    "* Self Sustain (C) for Power and (S) for Condi" - This was from your own original post.

    Team U S A - Reckless

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NationalNacho.5972 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524

    "let me quote myself from a previous thread of yours" - I was quoting myself, in one of the other threads you started.

    "* Self Sustain (C) for Power and (S) for Condi" - This was from your own original post.

    Ah gotcha, misread that.

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @Poelala.2830 said:
    In Trevor's world, Weaver does more damage than Spellbreaker.

    Best comment in this thread

  • Ithilwen.1529Ithilwen.1529 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    The reality is that Mesmer has already been hit more than hard enough.

    Players need to learn to counter, rather than calling for nerfs.

    Mesmerizing Girl

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