Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged] - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]

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  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Stunbreak on dodge is irrelevant. The issue is the ability to dodge while stunned regardless of whether it stunbreaks or not. Being able to dodge without interrupting casting is also a huge problem.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
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  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2018

    @incisorr.9502 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    How Can you die 1v1 as a condi mirage? Worst Comes to worst, reset, rince & repeat.

    (...)
    ITT: low elo non-mesmer players talking about a class they don't understand and blaming their shortcomings on the game instead themselves
    (...)

    Says the dude who didn't know the duration of MC... sorry, I can't forget it!

    €: Since the topic expanded:

    Make MC so that it does not work while stunned. Still good because works while immobilized and can cover attacks.

    Make EM so that it is castable while stunned. Get rid of the exhaustion kitten. Leave IH as it is. Maybe adjust both for balancing (cleanse 2 condis or something? Get rid of some of the clone's reductions?) over time.

    This way condi mirage has to decide between being tanky and able to ignore stuns (to some degree) or do more condi damage. Actually decide between significant changes.

    But let's nerf weaver evade frames first!

  • There were several feedback threads about the Condi Mirage. In order to collate feedback in the most meaningful way, we've merged those threads into this one. Please share your thoughts here. (Please do not create yet another thread.)

    Gaile Gray
    Communications Manager: ArenaNet
    Fansite & Guild Relations; In-Game Events; Community Showcase Live

  • Silence.3702Silence.3702 Member ✭✭✭

    Hello,well. since we got your attention, i would try to elaborate as short as i can yet adress the problems that we mainly suffer from.

    First of all the fact that Mirage can dodge while being stunned is a trait that provides huge bonus to the class , its unfair advantage and a mirage should have the same evade everyone has.

    As well as its conditions, it can apply an immense amount of conditions on you very quickly with very little drawback, rendering it very difficult to fight against

    A mirage by default has the higher ground and advantage by simply creating clones. you give it better offensive roatation, cleanses and tools to stay alive and it's gonna make any class look hopeless against it

    Cries in ele

  • Huskyboy.1053Huskyboy.1053 Member ✭✭✭

    There's really one problem with Mirage that exists with many elite specs: attack and defend at the same time. See below for what I mean. Mirage Cloak being the offender here. If Mirage Cloak had a looooooong ICD then it wouldn't be so annoying. Stealth, teleport, target break, dodge turns into invuln, all of that put together is the problem. Ideally Mirage damage would just take a nosedive since if we make Mirage way easier to hit then it loses what makes Mesmer generally distinct from other classes. 309.jpg

  • Ithilwen.1529Ithilwen.1529 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2018

    The entire point of "Mirage" is that it's not really there... attacks go through it." To remove this ability would be to abrogate the theme of the class even more thoroughly than was done with Chronomancer. ( By nerfing alacrity and distributing it to other classes )

    I think that attempting to make Mesmer into a brawler is a mistake. A light armor class needs to be OP just to survive close combat. Besides.. Mesmer is a sabotage and trickery profession , not a martial artist. A d/d ele has skills and a theme suitable to close combat. A Mesmer does not.

    I would also point out that numerous posters have expressed that they simply hate Mesmer and want to see it crippled.

    Mesmerizing Girl

  • Going to say no. When I can load up whatever I feel like on Mirage and randomly press buttons and still kill players consistently without much stress, there is a problem. You can't defend "can dodge while stunned without taking a trait" and "can cast while dodging without taking a trait" when Mesmer also has "create a clone when you dodge" and "get an enhanced auto when you dodge" and "reflect projectiles when you dodge". Read that for a moment. Think about it. And yes I say Mesmer/Mirage interchangeable because I don't care.

    As long as Mirage can dodge whenever they want and cast whatever they want during a dodge, they'll be far stronger than they can be nerfed down to. Sticking "can dodge while stunned" onto the "stunbreak when you dodge" trait would FIX Mirage. One hit. Done. Mirage will still be strong, but at the least we can do SOMETHING. It's pretty ridiculous that Mesmer's core identity isn't "make clones" it is instead "do whatever you want whenever". Core Mesmer has, almost, too much stunbreak, dodge, teleportation, and target break. It's hard to pin down a Mesmer, it's basically impossible to pin down a Mirage. Being punished by a player for playing CORRECTLY and SUCCESSFULLY should not be an identity.

    Say whatever you want here. F1, F2, F3, F4, and Dodge can be used at any point of any action or inaction. That's REALLY bad for pvp balance. I get Anet put this on the back-back-back burner, but still.

    Also to clarify idgaf if you're Power Mirage. You're playing a fairly difficult build and playstyle that has high reward, good for you I respect that. Condi Mirage has so much freedom to make mistakes and still remain unpunished while dishing out really good burst damage and nutty sustained damage. That's a no-no.

  • Arlette.9684Arlette.9684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    Thank's for the merge Gaile. My overly honest opinion on the matter of all class balance threads for that matter is:

    The bulk of players on the forum have either extreme views of class balance or ones that are completely disconnected from reality. It is my FIRM belief, that The Systems team, would do well to take every piece of feedback in regards to class balance (regardless of class in question) with a grain of salt the size of Texas. None of us like to lose, so in our blind rage, we tend to spew hate towards this or that class (I saw 3 separate threads, for 3 separate classes demanding nerfs, JUST TODAY), without really knowing what prompted said hate. I blame the still rather limited (it's gotten much better over the years) combat log, that doesn't provide a comprehensive enough picture to draw conclussions, as well as player ignorance that stems from the rather unintuitive way the game teaches you, about game and class mechanics.

    Vae Victus!
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  • Dharma.9123Dharma.9123 Member ✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    Mirage mesmer just have way TOO much
    Power mirage is okay. High rish - high reward.
    Condi mesmer in nightmare in sPvP right now.
    High burst damage/high pressure damage/highest mobility in game/target break/invis (also while cast spell)/non stop clone generating/good offense and good defensive/you cant run away/counters all single target builds without cleave/ even if you have cleave counters if you dont have A LOT condi cleanse.

    In meta now only ONE counter - core guardian. Because it have cleave and best condi cleanse. And even then guardian can lose in 1v1.
    Even spellbreaker with a lot condi cleanse and resistance cant win mirage 1v1, because mesmer ALWAYS can leave fight when wants it.

    This class have too much. Way to much to be balanced.

    Okay. Mesmer is illusionist/tricky class what make enemy angry. Okay. We all understund. But when then tricky class have so much damage?
    Next one - conditions
    Confusion - you cant cast skills, if only it is not condi cleaning. (I can play around that. Now problem. Good mechanic)
    Tornment - you cant run, or will die (Okay. I can play against it. No problem. Interesting)
    BLIND/BLEEDING/BURNING STACKING OVER AND OVER when you cant cast skills and cant run - ISNT FUN

    Thank you!

  • I play power Soulbeast like Trevor and tried out the Shorts Mirage build. It might be I need way more practice, but it didn't seem OP and fun like scourge was back in the day, and it was way riskier. Maybe I've worked up the ranks beyond where that can happen.

    What I do note though is that Mesmers are the hardest class to deal with on my Ranger, and it must be somewhat harder for Trevor if he's running Berserker.

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dharma.9123 said:
    Mirage mesmer just have way TOO much
    Power mirage is okay. High rish - high reward.
    Condi mesmer in nightmare in sPvP right now.
    High burst damage/high pressure damage/highest mobility in game/target break/invis (also while cast spell)/non stop clone generating/good offense and good defensive/you cant run away/counters all single target builds without cleave/ even if you have cleave counters if you dont have A LOT condi cleanse.

    In meta now only ONE counter - core guardian. Because it have cleave and best condi cleanse. And even then guardian can lose in 1v1.
    Even spellbreaker with a lot condi cleanse and resistance cant win mirage 1v1, because mesmer ALWAYS can leave fight when wants it.

    This class have too much. Way to much to be balanced.

    Okay. Mesmer is illusionist/tricky class what make enemy angry. Okay. We all understund. But when then tricky class have so much damage?
    Next one - conditions
    Confusion - you cant cast skills, if only it is not condi cleaning. (I can play around that. Now problem. Good mechanic)
    Tornment - you cant run, or will die (Okay. I can play against it. No problem. Interesting)
    BLIND/BLEEDING/BURNING STACKING OVER AND OVER when you cant cast skills and cant run - ISNT FUN

    Thank you!

    Aside from staff mesmer has access to burning only through torch.

    Mesmer using staff is actually more vulnerable than sword. And doesn't have access to target breaking.

    Also a little hint for everyone complaining about target breaking. The way the game works, if you tab target right after the mesmer uses axe 3 or illusionary ambush, the game will retarget to the mesmer. As long as you have the key bound to target nearest player. Works for me

  • Arlette.9684Arlette.9684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Faffin.6741 said:
    I play power Soulbeast like Trevor and tried out the Shorts Mirage build. It might be I need way more practice, but it didn't seem OP and fun like scourge was back in the day, and it was way riskier. Maybe I've worked up the ranks beyond where that can happen.

    What I do note though is that Mesmers are the hardest class to deal with on my Ranger, and it must be somewhat harder for Trevor if he's running Berserker.

    Mirage stomps Ranger in all its forms, it's just how it is. I have been on the receiving end of it and I understand the sense of helplessness. I still believe Trevor has it in him to look past that and accept it as a counter put there as a check and balance, much like Core Guard/Holo/Warr(to an extent) is there to check Mesmer :wink:

    Edit: @jportell.2197 Who on Earth still uses Tab targeting? Point the cursor at the obvious NON-clone and keep doing whatever it was, you were doing before the detarget, sheesh.

    Vae Victus!
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  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Huskyboy.1053 the idea of my list is what builds can do well/okay against mirage, cuz the thread direction was that mirage is industrucable.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @Faffin.6741 said:
    I play power Soulbeast like Trevor and tried out the Shorts Mirage build. It might be I need way more practice, but it didn't seem OP and fun like scourge was back in the day, and it was way riskier. Maybe I've worked up the ranks beyond where that can happen.

    What I do note though is that Mesmers are the hardest class to deal with on my Ranger, and it must be somewhat harder for Trevor if he's running Berserker.

    Mirage stomps Ranger in all its forms, it's just how it is. I have been on the receiving end of it and I understand the sense of helplessness. I still believe Trevor has it in him to look past that and accept it as a counter put there as a check and balance, much like Core Guard/Holo/Warr(to an extent) is there to check Mesmer :wink:

    Edit: @jportell.2197 Who on Earth still uses Tab targeting? Point the cursor at the obvious NON-clone and keep doing whatever it was, you were doing before the detarget, sheesh.

    Indeed

    @Faffin.6741 I did not write a thread complaining about Condi Mirage after playing against it. I wrote a thread telling a story about my experience playing as the Condi Mirage. There is a big difference. I would also like to note that not a single mention of a nerf was discussed in that thread from myself or anyone else posting.

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
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  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arlette.9684 said:

    @Faffin.6741 said:
    I play power Soulbeast like Trevor and tried out the Shorts Mirage build. It might be I need way more practice, but it didn't seem OP and fun like scourge was back in the day, and it was way riskier. Maybe I've worked up the ranks beyond where that can happen.

    What I do note though is that Mesmers are the hardest class to deal with on my Ranger, and it must be somewhat harder for Trevor if he's running Berserker.

    Mirage stomps Ranger in all its forms, it's just how it is. I have been on the receiving end of it and I understand the sense of helplessness. I still believe Trevor has it in him to look past that and accept it as a counter put there as a check and balance, much like Core Guard/Holo/Warr(to an extent) is there to check Mesmer :wink:

    Edit: @jportell.2197 Who on Earth still uses Tab targeting? Point the cursor at the obvious NON-clone and keep doing whatever it was, you were doing before the detarget, sheesh.

    The people who are griping about mirage I'm sure use tab targeting. We are getting so many of these complaint threads it's ridiculous.

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    The problem players are having with the Mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it doesnt work out as well is does for them in a regular mid-fight.
    The Mirage is a duelist and is extremely fragile when caught with his pants down without an evade....you suggest to take away his dueling capability and leave him with what....exactly?

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    The problem players are having with Mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it doesnt work out quite so fantastic is does for them in a regular mid-fight.
    The Mirage is a duelist and is extremely fragile when caught with his pants down....you suggest to take away his dueling capability and leave him with what....exactly?

    They are not fragile. The best form of tanking is not getting hit at all. And mesmer is master of not taking direct damage. Don't pretend like you don't know why they don't. With that said, even when the tankiest class specs for max toughness or health and purposely takes every defensive type skill and trait. They will melt in seconds. Ultimately, Condi Mesmers problem is just a reflection of bigger problems going on with the game itself. Damage is too high overall in pvp, boons are too abundant.

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    The problem players are having with Mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it doesnt work out quite so fantastic is does for them in a regular mid-fight.
    The Mirage is a duelist and is extremely fragile when caught with his pants down....you suggest to take away his dueling capability and leave him with what....exactly?

    They are not fragile. The best form of tanking is not getting hit at all. And mesmer is master of not taking direct damage. Don't pretend like you don't know why they don't. With that said, even when the tankiest class specs for max toughness or health and purposely takes every defensive type skill and trait. They will melt in seconds. Ultimately, Condi Mesmers problem is just a reflection of bigger problems going on with the game itself. Damage is too high overall in pvp, boons are too abundant.

    I still stay behind what I said. They have evades but are fragile....similar to thieves.
    Im not going to claim to know much since I only play at gold 1-2 but I am not seeing an over representation of mirages...if anything the most popular class I see is necro by far.
    I can also say that as a mirage I saw a huge difference from unranked to silver to gold like I didnt with other classes, in silver especially people constantly attack my clones and cuss and me - this doenst happen at gold at all.

  • First up I want to start out as I'm new to the game. I plays Ranger I'm thinking it's going to be my main. I'm trying to get into PvP over here. I'm rank 19 almost to rank 20 to start doing Ranked matches.
    So now to the point. In matches I'm finding fighting against Mirages a impossible battle so far. Much of it is due to my skills. Yes I know. However I must ask the players. How do yall counter and kill Mirages?

    They seem to have every thing from stealth, to damage that I can't keep up with, while being super tanky. Most of my attack don't connect. And when that do connect it's like I'm hitting a brick wall. It's seems that I can't have enough dodges or cleanses to deal with their damage. And after all of that if I start getting them low they just disappear.

    Please help me!

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭

    Start with attacking the actual Mirage and not his clones. The best and pretty much the only way is to log on to a mirage and see which skills he has so you can learn what to expect.

  • Jaka.3182Jaka.3182 Member ✭✭

    I play core ranger and dh and I m at g3-plat1 division and can only tell you from my perspective. I cant beat them. I avoid them, if mirage focus me I am dead. Either he is invul., stealth or there is hundreds of illusions and all is just a complete blur. Mostly all I do is searching for target until I m dead or I just wait till they kill me and I try to avoid them even more. "Fighting" a mirage is something that shouldn't be called pvp at all. All you do is hitting clones or an invuln. blur while whole screen is exploding around you dealing constant condi dmg. There is no actual fighting there. But if you somehow beat them to low morale, they will simply port/blink/whatever to safety because they are loaded with getaway skills. And no one can follow, specially not my core ranger or dh.
    If you play pof2win specs you ll be better of as they are also broken just not that much.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    The problem players are having with the Mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it doesnt work out as well is does for them in a regular mid-fight.
    The Mirage is a duelist and is extremely fragile when caught with his pants down without an evade....you suggest to take away his dueling capability and leave him with what....exactly?

    The problem players are having playing mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it works out and they do tons of damage.
    The mirage is a duelist and is not fragile at all when caught without evades - they have plenty of other disengaging tools like teleports, on demand stealth, portal and more. If they kitten up, hardly any class can stop them from disengaging. Core guard for example only has 2 gap closers, Sword 2 usually being used in fight for blind and symbol. That is what makes it high reward, low risk. I think mesmer should have to choose between high sustain and high damage in their traitlines - the split I mentioned above would be my spontaneous idea. Doesn't address the various teleports, but I might be okay with those if they tune other things.

    And while I usually only play power mesmer from time to time (until the CS nerf lol), I did try condi mirage a bit in Plat. Without any training, any muscle memory - and I did way too good. The same only worked with scourge a couple of months ago - well, I admit, that was even easier. :lol:

    Because I might be developing some kind of fetish here: Yes, they should tune down holo, spellbreaker and stuff as well. Don't worry, I am not only complaining about mirage. :smile: These classes limit build diversity extremely. When did we have a condi build being strong that was not scourge or mirage...?

  • Meteor.3720Meteor.3720 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ithilwen.1529 said:
    The entire point of "Mirage" is that it's not really there... attacks go through it." To remove this ability would be to abrogate the theme of the class even more thoroughly than was done with Chronomancer. ( By nerfing alacrity and distributing it to other classes )

    I think that attempting to make Mesmer into a brawler is a mistake. A light armor class needs to be OP just to survive close combat. Besides.. Mesmer is a sabotage and trickery profession , not a martial artist. A d/d ele has skills and a theme suitable to close combat. A Mesmer does not.

    I would also point out that numerous posters have expressed that they simply hate Mesmer and want to see it crippled.

    You're right that is the "theme" of mirage, as well as generally being hard to distinguish from the clones (the one dodging always gave away who was real when the clones stood still).
    That does not mean that the "theme" isn't broken or a bad idea in general, nor that it shouldn't be changed. The fact it can dodge whilst stunned and casting other skills (even without elusive mind which is thoroughly nerfed) is just a bad mechanic, broken, and should be changed.

    For example, what about keeping the ambush and mirage cloak aspect of mirage, but removing the ability to dodge whilst stunned/ casting skills. That still keeps in line with the "theme" of hard to differentiate from clones, still gives dodge a unique mechanic, doesn't really affect pve much, and will have a much healthier impact on pvp.

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    The problem players are having with the Mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it doesnt work out as well is does for them in a regular mid-fight.
    The Mirage is a duelist and is extremely fragile when caught with his pants down without an evade....you suggest to take away his dueling capability and leave him with what....exactly?

    The problem players are having playing mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it works out and they do tons of damage.
    The mirage is a duelist and is not fragile at all when caught without evades - they have plenty of other disengaging tools like teleports, on demand stealth, portal and more. If they kitten up, hardly any class can stop them from disengaging. Core guard for example only has 2 gap closers, Sword 2 usually being used in fight for blind and symbol. That is what makes it high reward, low risk. I think mesmer should have to choose between high sustain and high damage in their traitlines - the split I mentioned above would be my spontaneous idea. Doesn't address the various teleports, but I might be okay with those if they tune other things.

    And while I usually only play power mesmer from time to time (until the CS nerf lol), I did try condi mirage a bit in Plat. Without any training, any muscle memory - and I did way too good. The same only worked with scourge a couple of months ago - well, I admit, that was even easier. :lol:

    Because I might be developing some kind of fetish here: Yes, they should tune down holo, spellbreaker and stuff as well. Don't worry, I am not only complaining about mirage. :smile: These classes limit build diversity extremely. When did we have a condi build being strong that was not scourge or mirage...?

    To my mind the meaning of fragile is something that takes a lot of damage when you hit it...which is exactly the case with mirage.
    By your meaning thieves are not fragile because they have lots of evade and disengage potential.

  • Toron.4856Toron.4856 Member ✭✭✭

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    The problem players are having with the Mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it doesnt work out as well is does for them in a regular mid-fight.
    The Mirage is a duelist and is extremely fragile when caught with his pants down without an evade....you suggest to take away his dueling capability and leave him with what....exactly?

    The problem players are having playing mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it works out and they do tons of damage.
    The mirage is a duelist and is not fragile at all when caught without evades - they have plenty of other disengaging tools like teleports, on demand stealth, portal and more. If they kitten up, hardly any class can stop them from disengaging. Core guard for example only has 2 gap closers, Sword 2 usually being used in fight for blind and symbol. That is what makes it high reward, low risk. I think mesmer should have to choose between high sustain and high damage in their traitlines - the split I mentioned above would be my spontaneous idea. Doesn't address the various teleports, but I might be okay with those if they tune other things.

    And while I usually only play power mesmer from time to time (until the CS nerf lol), I did try condi mirage a bit in Plat. Without any training, any muscle memory - and I did way too good. The same only worked with scourge a couple of months ago - well, I admit, that was even easier. :lol:

    Because I might be developing some kind of fetish here: Yes, they should tune down holo, spellbreaker and stuff as well. Don't worry, I am not only complaining about mirage. :smile: These classes limit build diversity extremely. When did we have a condi build being strong that was not scourge or mirage...?

    To my mind the meaning of fragile is something that takes a lot of damage when you hit it...which is exactly the case with mirage.
    By your meaning thieves are not fragile because they have lots of evade and disengage potential.

    The keyword is "when you hit it"

    Dodge while stunned
    Jaunt
    Blink
    Portal
    Evade
    Stealth
    Sword 2
    Distortion
    Sword Ambush
    Breaking target
    Etc.

    :-)

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Make one and play it, get used to the playstyle and skills and take note on what killed you and how... Best way to learn to counter any class and it will make you a better player overall in the long run.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Toron.4856 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    The problem players are having with the Mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it doesnt work out as well is does for them in a regular mid-fight.
    The Mirage is a duelist and is extremely fragile when caught with his pants down without an evade....you suggest to take away his dueling capability and leave him with what....exactly?

    The problem players are having playing mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it works out and they do tons of damage.
    The mirage is a duelist and is not fragile at all when caught without evades - they have plenty of other disengaging tools like teleports, on demand stealth, portal and more. If they kitten up, hardly any class can stop them from disengaging. Core guard for example only has 2 gap closers, Sword 2 usually being used in fight for blind and symbol. That is what makes it high reward, low risk. I think mesmer should have to choose between high sustain and high damage in their traitlines - the split I mentioned above would be my spontaneous idea. Doesn't address the various teleports, but I might be okay with those if they tune other things.

    And while I usually only play power mesmer from time to time (until the CS nerf lol), I did try condi mirage a bit in Plat. Without any training, any muscle memory - and I did way too good. The same only worked with scourge a couple of months ago - well, I admit, that was even easier. :lol:

    Because I might be developing some kind of fetish here: Yes, they should tune down holo, spellbreaker and stuff as well. Don't worry, I am not only complaining about mirage. :smile: These classes limit build diversity extremely. When did we have a condi build being strong that was not scourge or mirage...?

    To my mind the meaning of fragile is something that takes a lot of damage when you hit it...which is exactly the case with mirage.
    By your meaning thieves are not fragile because they have lots of evade and disengage potential.

    The keyword is "when you hit it"

    Dodge while stunned
    Jaunt
    Blink
    Portal
    Evade
    Stealth
    Sword 2
    Distortion
    Sword Ambush
    Breaking target
    Etc.

    :-)

    I think if you list all the evade thief has it will be even more impressive?
    Whats your point though? Mirage needs these evades to survive

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    The problem players are having with the Mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it doesnt work out as well is does for them in a regular mid-fight.
    The Mirage is a duelist and is extremely fragile when caught with his pants down without an evade....you suggest to take away his dueling capability and leave him with what....exactly?

    The problem players are having playing mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it works out and they do tons of damage.
    The mirage is a duelist and is not fragile at all when caught without evades - they have plenty of other disengaging tools like teleports, on demand stealth, portal and more. If they kitten up, hardly any class can stop them from disengaging. Core guard for example only has 2 gap closers, Sword 2 usually being used in fight for blind and symbol. That is what makes it high reward, low risk. I think mesmer should have to choose between high sustain and high damage in their traitlines - the split I mentioned above would be my spontaneous idea. Doesn't address the various teleports, but I might be okay with those if they tune other things.

    And while I usually only play power mesmer from time to time (until the CS nerf lol), I did try condi mirage a bit in Plat. Without any training, any muscle memory - and I did way too good. The same only worked with scourge a couple of months ago - well, I admit, that was even easier. :lol:

    Because I might be developing some kind of fetish here: Yes, they should tune down holo, spellbreaker and stuff as well. Don't worry, I am not only complaining about mirage. :smile: These classes limit build diversity extremely. When did we have a condi build being strong that was not scourge or mirage...?

    To my mind the meaning of fragile is something that takes a lot of damage when you hit it...which is exactly the case with mirage.
    By your meaning thieves are not fragile because they have lots of evade and disengage potential.

    They are more fragile because they have way less other means of evading damage, yes. :smile: Shadowstep, maybe steal somehow. Fragility is not defined by how many HPs someone has - otherwise even bunker weaver would be fragile. But that might be a different understanding between the two of us. Condi mirage does have a lot of disengage potential and active defenses apart from dodging, I guess we can agree on that. :smile:

    I would just like to reduce either the escapability or the damage. Right now these classes are just too dominant.^^

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @Toron.4856 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    The problem players are having with the Mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it doesnt work out as well is does for them in a regular mid-fight.
    The Mirage is a duelist and is extremely fragile when caught with his pants down without an evade....you suggest to take away his dueling capability and leave him with what....exactly?

    The problem players are having playing mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it works out and they do tons of damage.
    The mirage is a duelist and is not fragile at all when caught without evades - they have plenty of other disengaging tools like teleports, on demand stealth, portal and more. If they kitten up, hardly any class can stop them from disengaging. Core guard for example only has 2 gap closers, Sword 2 usually being used in fight for blind and symbol. That is what makes it high reward, low risk. I think mesmer should have to choose between high sustain and high damage in their traitlines - the split I mentioned above would be my spontaneous idea. Doesn't address the various teleports, but I might be okay with those if they tune other things.

    And while I usually only play power mesmer from time to time (until the CS nerf lol), I did try condi mirage a bit in Plat. Without any training, any muscle memory - and I did way too good. The same only worked with scourge a couple of months ago - well, I admit, that was even easier. :lol:

    Because I might be developing some kind of fetish here: Yes, they should tune down holo, spellbreaker and stuff as well. Don't worry, I am not only complaining about mirage. :smile: These classes limit build diversity extremely. When did we have a condi build being strong that was not scourge or mirage...?

    To my mind the meaning of fragile is something that takes a lot of damage when you hit it...which is exactly the case with mirage.
    By your meaning thieves are not fragile because they have lots of evade and disengage potential.

    The keyword is "when you hit it"

    Dodge while stunned
    Jaunt
    Blink
    Portal
    Evade
    Stealth
    Sword 2
    Distortion
    Sword Ambush
    Breaking target
    Etc.

    :-)

    Sword ambush can't be used while stunned even if the mirage does dodge.
    Most people don't use blink they use sig of midnight. And if they use blink they aren't using signet of midnight.
    Stealth is 3s on a 30s CD. Ranger and engineer have better access. (Aside from the aforementioned signet of midnight)

    Portal is a LOOOOPNG CD.

    Jaunt won't even teleport you out of most AOEs the distance is so short.

    As for sword it has been nerfed with a CD increase, had its evade time reduced. Then had its damage reduced. What more do you want here?

    Distortion is once again a long cooldown.
    Vigor has been nerfed, conditions application have been nerfed.
    Condi cleanse has been nerfed.

    If you want mirage to have less evasion uptime give it the same boon access while maintaining the damage output of holo.
    Or give it the 1vX sustain of spellbreaker.
    Or the AOE pressure of a reaper.

    Right now mirage is mainly a good 1v1 class, still can't really stand on a point against most meta bruiser builds, still forced into portal, and still weaker to condis than most other classes.

    The inspiration variant just doesn't have the damage to really be relevant at, and its sustain is still not on par with a SB.

  • Mirage is trash atm.Sorry bt i don't have problems with it after they got nerf only low plat , gold , and silver crying here in comments because they dont know how to play there class and crying over other class . At this time a good core guard , as thief , boon soul beast , a good holo , plat 2 + deadeye, a good bunker spell breaker can kill poor condi mirage like a trash player.

  • @Dharma.9123 Bro learn to play please or.play some viable build. If u saying mirage is a nightmare then please fight in tournaments. You will see every player a nightmare pvp is not just limited to just press buttons.

  • @StabbersTheThird.6053 Please play your mirage against me and press buttons randomly, i will put to dead in under 10 seconds^^ Please dont mind .

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Toron.4856 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    The problem players are having with the Mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it doesnt work out as well is does for them in a regular mid-fight.
    The Mirage is a duelist and is extremely fragile when caught with his pants down without an evade....you suggest to take away his dueling capability and leave him with what....exactly?

    The problem players are having playing mirage is that when they try to roll their face on the keyboard and just spam their offensives it works out and they do tons of damage.
    The mirage is a duelist and is not fragile at all when caught without evades - they have plenty of other disengaging tools like teleports, on demand stealth, portal and more. If they kitten up, hardly any class can stop them from disengaging. Core guard for example only has 2 gap closers, Sword 2 usually being used in fight for blind and symbol. That is what makes it high reward, low risk. I think mesmer should have to choose between high sustain and high damage in their traitlines - the split I mentioned above would be my spontaneous idea. Doesn't address the various teleports, but I might be okay with those if they tune other things.

    And while I usually only play power mesmer from time to time (until the CS nerf lol), I did try condi mirage a bit in Plat. Without any training, any muscle memory - and I did way too good. The same only worked with scourge a couple of months ago - well, I admit, that was even easier. :lol:

    Because I might be developing some kind of fetish here: Yes, they should tune down holo, spellbreaker and stuff as well. Don't worry, I am not only complaining about mirage. :smile: These classes limit build diversity extremely. When did we have a condi build being strong that was not scourge or mirage...?

    To my mind the meaning of fragile is something that takes a lot of damage when you hit it...which is exactly the case with mirage.
    By your meaning thieves are not fragile because they have lots of evade and disengage potential.

    The keyword is "when you hit it"

    Dodge while stunned
    Jaunt
    Blink
    Portal
    Evade
    Stealth
    Sword 2
    Distortion
    Sword Ambush
    Breaking target
    Etc.

    :-)

    Sword ambush can't be used while stunned even if the mirage does dodge.
    Most people don't use blink they use sig of midnight. And if they use blink they aren't using signet of midnight.
    Stealth is 3s on a 30s CD. Ranger and engineer have better access. (Aside from the aforementioned signet of midnight)

    Portal is a LOOOOPNG CD.

    Jaunt won't even teleport you out of most AOEs the distance is so short.

    As for sword it has been nerfed with a CD increase, had its evade time reduced. Then had its damage reduced. What more do you want here?

    Distortion is once again a long cooldown.
    Vigor has been nerfed, conditions application have been nerfed.
    Condi cleanse has been nerfed.

    If you want mirage to have less evasion uptime give it the same boon access while maintaining the damage output of holo.
    Or give it the 1vX sustain of spellbreaker.
    Or the AOE pressure of a reaper.

    Right now mirage is mainly a good 1v1 class, still can't really stand on a point against most meta bruiser builds, still forced into portal, and still weaker to condis than most other classes.

    The inspiration variant just doesn't have the damage to really be relevant at, and its sustain is still not on par with a SB.

    Im starting to thing all these whiners are the kind of people that attack mesmer clones and rage

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 hahahaha brother please fight high tier players bt not low tier plats or try to play in tournaments, you will stop playing condi mirage after that lmao It not good as u saying S S+ ...you will die from a noob plat 2 player there too also from boon soul beast , bunker warrior , core guard , sd thief , other condi mirage , conversion holo ..give it a try ^^ You given a big explanation i appritiate but please try it.

  • Einlanzer.1627Einlanzer.1627 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The problem is and always has been that the developers seem to keep balancing around an overbuffed baseline for condition damage because they forgot it has the benefit of ignoring armor. I've been calling this out for years. Unbelievable there are still so many issues.

    Condi needs to be nerfed virtually across the board, and condi removal just needs to basically be removed. The condi removal counterplay meta is stupid.

  • @Dash Rydr.2835 said:
    @Dharma.9123 Bro learn to play please or.play some viable build. If u saying mirage is a nightmare then please fight in tournaments. You will see every player a nightmare pvp is not just limited to just press buttons.

    sPvp in this game is not for tournament players. I dont know statistic, but have feeling - average devision in game is between silver/gold.
    Answer - become plat 3 and then will dont have any problems with mirage mesmer is not okay man (also use viable build for it please)

    One build counters another is okay (revenant vs condi mesmer is ike 0.02% for success with same skill). Revenant counter rifle DE thief - is okay.
    Become good in game/use viable builds/play way better then opponent and then you (maybe) will win this duel - is not okay.

    Ow.. sorry. Your team done have portal? Then we will always outplay you with rotations. Nothing personal, just mesmer.

  • Dash Rydr.2835Dash Rydr.2835 Member ✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Dharma.9123 Boon soul beast , bunker warrior , core guard , sd thief , other condi mirage , conversion holo ..give it a try against condi mirage 1 vs 1 , that poor condi mirage will die helpless^^You will win 90 %. Rev dont counter condi mirage so dont give priority to that thing ,every class has its 1 counter and its not 1 vs 1 class ..try +1 on rev against condi mirage if u smart enough after the nerf condi mirage got not much douches that it can survive every time.

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dharma.9123 said:

    @Dash Rydr.2835 said:
    @Dharma.9123 Bro learn to play please or.play some viable build. If u saying mirage is a nightmare then please fight in tournaments. You will see every player a nightmare pvp is not just limited to just press buttons.

    sPvp in this game is not for tournament players. I dont know statistic, but have feeling - average devision in game is between silver/gold.
    Answer - become plat 3 and then will dont have any problems with mirage mesmer is not okay man (also use viable build for it please)

    One build counters another is okay (revenant vs condi mesmer is ike 0.02% for success with same skill). Revenant counter rifle DE thief - is okay.
    Become good in game/use viable builds/play way better then opponent and then you (maybe) will win this duel - is not okay.

    Ow.. sorry. Your team done have portal? Then we will always outplay you with rotations. Nothing personal, just mesmer.

    Hold on a second there...did you just say its NOT okay to get better?

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    If you play on thief, one of the ways you beat them is to consistently land your steal. Mirage has a dodge animation that comes accompanied with a status effect that you can see on their status window. The millisecond it ends is usually the best time to land steal which gives you the ecto, and you can pretty much sustain as long as you land the steal.

    For other classes you may also want to look at their status bar and use your abilities when it ends as well. They have 4 invulns; sword 2, distortion, axe 3 and dodge.

    Everything except axe 3 has a status effect, so ya, pay attention to those and you should do okay.

  • @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Dharma.9123 said:

    @Dash Rydr.2835 said:
    @Dharma.9123 Bro learn to play please or.play some viable build. If u saying mirage is a nightmare then please fight in tournaments. You will see every player a nightmare pvp is not just limited to just press buttons.

    sPvp in this game is not for tournament players. I dont know statistic, but have feeling - average devision in game is between silver/gold.
    Answer - become plat 3 and then will dont have any problems with mirage mesmer is not okay man (also use viable build for it please)

    One build counters another is okay (revenant vs condi mesmer is ike 0.02% for success with same skill). Revenant counter rifle DE thief - is okay.
    Become good in game/use viable builds/play way better then opponent and then you (maybe) will win this duel - is not okay.

    Ow.. sorry. Your team done have portal? Then we will always outplay you with rotations. Nothing personal, just mesmer.

    Hold on a second there...did you just say its NOT okay to get better?

    It is not okay if you need to play WAY better then opponent for win, and lose if have same skill level.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    Power mirage is okay. High rish - high reward.

    It's funny because it has the same tools as condi mirage considering mirage trait and utilitary.

    Condi mesmer in nightmare in sPvP right now.

    No.

    High burst damage/high pressure damage/highest mobility in game/target break/invis (also while cast spell)/non stop clone generating/good offense and good defensive/you cant run away/counters all single target builds without cleave/ even if you have cleave counters if you dont have A LOT condi cleanse.

    The only right assertion is that it has target break.
    Why aren't you top 10 with theses op tools ?
    Why didn't we see mesmers every leaderboard pages ?

    In meta now only ONE counter - core guardian.

    And boon soulbeast, and every sustain specs like weavers, drood, and it have fair mu against some other meta spec.
    A gardian should never lose to a condimirage.

    Confusion - you cant cast skills, if only it is not condi cleaning.

    Every confusion burst max duration is 3.5 to 4.75 sec, even with no dispell, it's easy on much class to juste kite waiting confusion go away.
    Torment have a high duration only on scepter block and 3rd axe auto.
    Burning and bleed came from burst, every spec who hit you with a 20-24 cd damage spell will hurt you.

    Mirage stomps Ranger in all its forms

    Condi mirage lose to drood and boon soulbeast.
    Power mirage lose to ranger and boon soulbeast.

    Who on Earth still uses Tab targeting?

    It target almost always the mesmer under his clones.

    I wrote a thread telling a story about my experience playing as the Condi Mirage.

    You but it's just a story on which you are farming noobs. it just show that mesmer is good a killing newbies, it's not the only one anyway.
    I can do the same on every meta builds, resuming the feedback to "kitten I kill everyone around me, I don't even know why.".

    tons of damage

    can you tell how much ?

    The Mirage is a duelist and is extremely fragile when caught with his pants down without an evade....you suggest to take away his dueling capability and leave him with what....exactly?

    This is the major issue in this forum, majority plays teamfight oriented class and are persuaded that they should also win every duel in this game.
    Leaving duelling class with nothing.

    The mirage is a duelist and is not fragile at all when caught without evades

    They can't anticap points versus most of meta builds.

    they have plenty of other disengaging tools like teleports

    1 1200 good teleport.
    jaunt and staff will not make you got out of damage in most case (mainly due to ennemy gap closer, reduced movement on you, projectile ...).
    Teleports survival didn't help caping a point.

    on demand stealth

    One or two stealth with a 24-30 cd for a 4-3 second stealth ... Not to say that you are vulnerable to aoe, revealed, can't cap point.

    portal and more

    actually portal is the only skill who make the difference, what is more ?

    hardly any class can stop them from disengaging.

    I prefer to no need disengaging and fight on point than to be forced to run away.

    The keyword is "when you hit it"

    Dodge while stunned
    Jaunt
    Blink
    Portal
    Evade
    Stealth
    Sword 2
    Distortion
    Sword Ambush
    Breaking target
    Etc.

    How much are 3 in 1 spell in this list ?
    4 of those burn 4 utilitary emplacement.
    Real pegi4 profession are thoses who with 1 clic who do hudge damage + heal + cc + evade or other effect.

    Condi mirage does have a lot of disengage potential and active defenses apart from dodging, I guess we can agree on that.

    Most of them aren't good in capture point mode.
    Most of them are necessary to just survive more than 15 sec, have you played with half of the list above to see how not viable it is ?

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    I think if you list all the evade thief has it will be even more impressive?
    Whats your point though? Mirage needs these evades to survive

    So does every class. Name me a class that can take direct damage without dying in a millisecond? Answer? No one. At this point in time every class relies on: Evades, blocks, invul to survive(which is a huge part of the problem). Specific classes have all of the latter in addition to stealth and easy disengagement. It just so happens that Mirage has higher uptime of those 100% mitigation skills than anyone, in addition to stealth and easy disengage. Its like I said in a previous post, all of this is just a symptom of a bigger problem with the game. At this stage of the game, it probably doesn't matter. I don't think Anet will ever revert the game back to how it was in the beginning. Which was 100x better than what we have now.

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    I feel toughness needs to affect condition damage as it does with physical damage. I dont see why condis get a free pass to do full damage when ever its applied but phyical damage has many miditgations.
    Therew only one thing to do with condis and its clearing.

    No, toughness shouldn't affect condition damage. Condition builds are already dead, don't need to beat that dead horse again. It's a mirage and mesmer issue, not an issue of conditions. There is so much cleanse in the game now that you can use, you don't need another option.

  • Silence.3702Silence.3702 Member ✭✭✭

    In a main memeser mind even a button that says kill everyone wouldn't be op simply because it makes everything easier for them.

    Why work when you get stuff handed to you with a golden spoon?

    Cries in ele

  • Silence.3702Silence.3702 Member ✭✭✭

    You don't. You play better
    You can't counter it since a mirage has everything you have and more

    Cries in ele

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    golden spoon = nerf duel capacity since release ? (remember sword 3 work when clone die, sword 3 who breakstunt for example.)
    = 9 ultitary with no cd reduction, 5 with no traits ?
    Mourner = I want to rollafce mesmer even with my heal exotic build.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @geist.4126 said:

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    I feel toughness needs to affect condition damage as it does with physical damage. I dont see why condis get a free pass to do full damage when ever its applied but phyical damage has many miditgations.
    Therew only one thing to do with condis and its clearing.

    No, toughness shouldn't affect condition damage. Condition builds are already dead, don't need to beat that dead horse again. It's a mirage and mesmer issue, not an issue of conditions. There is so much cleanse in the game now that you can use, you don't need another option.

    Condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely overtuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely. And even then there is no shortage of Power Mirage and absolutely no shortage Power Reaper who have pulled ahead of Scourge.

    Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition bursts. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 3+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

    Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it.

    As to directly answer Eddbopkins point, Condition is allowed to bypass toughness (And generally be tuned to do higher damage than power damage), from a philosophical level, because condition damage last over a longer period of time where as power damage is all loaded up front, and can be completely mitigated through cleanses and resistance in addition to most of the things power is mitigate by such as blinds, blocks, evades, and invulns. The only things that hinders power damage over condition damage are weakness and protection both of which aren't anywhere near as potent as completely nullifying the damage the way cleanses and resistance do.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Kako.1930Kako.1930 Member ✭✭✭

    Wow, it's nice that the threads finally got merged but seeing 5 pages about condi mes makes it seem like it's game breaking or something, and it's not that bad in my opinion. O.o;;

    It's strong, easy, and gimmicky, but it's not dominating every match or anything...

    (Then again, half of the posts seem to just be mesmer mains defending their main, lol.)

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @EUmad.7645 said:

    @EUmad.7645 Indeed, Condi Mirage is a Carrion based build. Pretty sure this was mentioned in my OP post.

    Carrion is not a pure condi setup. You have also a really good direct damage with sword and staff ambush .... and in my opinion , what makes that build stronger than GS burst is the staff 2 skill ... you can create clone and outplace yourself, it is really a strong strong life saver and gs has nothing similar.

    I guess my point is that, I don't think anyone ever thought Carrion was just a condi amulet to begin with my man.

    Condi mirage for me is a rabid or dire or trabalizer spec. In carrion your direct damage is near you condi damage so it is not "condi". You don't die for condi alone, instead if u play condi usually your opponent dies only for condi and not for direct damage. For me the right name is hybrid mirage .

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