Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged] - Page 5 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]

1235717

Comments

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    I'll only respond to this, since I am not really a fan of citation wars.

    @viquing.8254 said:
    (...)

    hardly any class can stop them from disengaging.

    I prefer to no need disengaging and fight on point than to be forced to run away.
    (...)

    Condi mirage can hardly get killed. That is the main point. It can invest heavily into a duel and if things go wrong, they can use various skills to escape. The same does not go for any other class (maybe holo, because perma swiftness and stuff).

    1. Reaper can only really disengage with wurm or maybe shroud 2. If they invest into a fight, miss their burst, they have a tough time. Same for scourge.
    2. Thief (not really talking about rifle DE here) bursts and has to finish the opponent. Otherwise disengage, kite. Shadowstep can be used as an engage/disengage tool for... how many seconds?
    3. FA ele has exactly one teleport on a higher CD than mesmer. But I guess we don't talk about eles.
    4. Spellbreaker is easier to catch, but also hard. If they want to kite, they can do it easily with FC blocks and various movement tools. But if you corrupt and/or stun them, they have no 4 instant teleports away.
    5. Soulbeast also has a lot of movement skills and stealth access, but no blinds, no instant teleports, can be stunned.
    6. Core guard can hardly disengage at all, needs enemies to teleport to. If they fail their JI burst, they are stuck right there.
    7. Revenant has no stab, needs a target for teleports.
    8. Holo is tough too. Elixir S for emergency disengage, perma swiftness and stealth. Still can be stunlocked after his auto Elixir proc.

    Meanwhile condi mirage has 3 (!) instant 450 teleports. They even are jump finishers (for whatever reason). Got hit by spellbreakers shield bash or rampage, no (lol) evade left? 4 teleports to avoid the next burst. 4! You can even use one or two offensively, investing a lot in offense, stun breaking or kiting and still have a teleport left!

    That "investment risk" is what I would like to see changed. BUT: Yes, I would like to see it changed on holo and spellbreaker too. How can they have so much sustain with purely offensive amulets? Increase damage and let all their healing skills scale much more with healing power. So they have to decide between being tanky and sustainy and damage.

  • Doesn't really seem like a problem to me. I blow up condi mirage mesmers all time, as long as I load a trait or talent that can cleanse some conditions. Transferring conditions back on a mesmer blows them up even faster.

    I think the fundamental issue I'm seeing is people are coming up against a conditioner mesmer without condition cleanse.

    Deadeye thieves are far worse, IMO. If you survive the ranged nuke, they just hide and do it again.

  • @Aza.2105 said:
    Evades, blocks, invul to survive(which is a huge part of the problem). Specific classes have all of the latter in addition to stealth and easy disengagement. It just so happens that Mirage has higher uptime of those 100% mitigation skills than anyone

    Daredevil ,thief can spam evades as long as he have initiative, blocking utility (not random from CS), daggerstorm is 4s invul and just dumb elite that can be recharged because of improvisation , stealth balbla . So no , not more. Lets try again? ;)

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    The only counter I know of is spamming threads for nerf. If you spam enough, it will create a super thread big enough to give mirage mains some more exhaustion.

    Seriously. Idk what people want man. It's like 2014 when mesmer nearly got deleted from the game because of all the nerfs

  • MikeL.8260MikeL.8260 Member ✭✭✭

    First off it's normal to struggle against Mesmers as a new player so don't let that drag you down. It's the most unique class you will ever encounter in any game, MMO or not.
    As a core Ranger (i assume it's what you play) simply put you stand no chance, only Soulbeasts and some Druids can duel with a Mirage. Instead focus your efforts on objectives and helping your team in teamfights, thats your job. Let your team's side noder (War/Thief/Mesmer) deal with the enemy Mirage.

  • Silence.3702Silence.3702 Member ✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:
    golden spoon = nerf duel capacity since release ? (remember sword 3 work when clone die, sword 3 who breakstunt for example.)
    = 9 ultitary with no cd reduction, 5 with no traits ?
    Mourner = I want to rollafce mesmer even with my heal exotic build.

    hahaha

    Cries in ele

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:
    Evades, blocks, invul to survive(which is a huge part of the problem). Specific classes have all of the latter in addition to stealth and easy disengagement. It just so happens that Mirage has higher uptime of those 100% mitigation skills than anyone

    Daredevil ,thief can spam evades as long as he have initiative, blocking utility (not random from CS), daggerstorm is 4s invul and just dumb elite that can be recharged because of improvisation , stealth balbla . So no , not more. Lets try again? ;)

    I do agree that DE is extremely cheap with the "perma stealth ranged attack" mode they are having. It might be not OP, but it is exactly the same "investment into fight" I talked about earlier - they don't have to invest pretty much anything. I'd love to see the stealth duration decreased or revealed be interesting again...

    This does not go for DD or S/D and stuff. Using initiative for evades limits access to stealth, to SB 5 for disengaging and of course to offense. That is okay. And yes, imagine a DD being able to attack you while invulnerable would extremely OP too. This way, when they dodge, you can just wait it out. Even... gasp ... bait dodges as people used to do! Which is a lot harder with mirages (dodge while stunned, dodge for offense...).

    DS is dum though, also agree. :lol:

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Dodge shatters - when clones run to you or when they jump at you all at the same time.
    Kill clones when the mirage itself is stealthed while still playing attention to your surroundings.
    Load up WS skills with Wilderness Knowledge trait.
    Don't spam skills while you've confusion on you.

    If the mirage is running evasive mirror (reflect projectiles after a sucessful evasion) you don't stand a chance tho.

    The degenerate

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 :
    Reaper/necro in general shouldn't 1v1 and ideally have a sustain with it to teamplay.
    SD thief can engage/disengage forever.
    FA is..., well we don't talk about ele :D
    Soulbeast have plethora of soft condi from pet/skills who help much (poison, weakness, cripple ...).
    Ok for the rest.

    But remember that once mesmer drop sword and staff, even with jaunt, it has meh mobility.

  • incisorr.9502incisorr.9502 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    There were several feedback threads about the Condi Mirage. In order to collate feedback in the most meaningful way, we've merged those threads into this one. Please share your thoughts here. (Please do not create yet another thread.)

    that's nice but the mods are randomly deleting literally every second good post there is for no reason without any justification and then i see posts like " condi mirage has too much of everything while power is high risk and reward " being left here which is a blatant lie and is literally the exact opposite and i've at least given arguments as to why that is but it just gets ignored by low-gold ppl here who have no clue about balance but for some reason think its good to talk about it when they can't even do things as basic as reading skills or understanding stats

    Condi mirage is currently the "weakest meta class" and i don't consider it meta but everyone still does. Reaper can hit for 15k with a single ability with infinite quickness but mirage can't have more than 1 sec vigor XDddddddDddddddddD useFuL tRaItS . Condi mirage has no protection unless u use staff and then u have no dmg, power mirage has protection cus it doesnt take axe traits = clearly power mirage is higher risk despite having better mobility and more protection and higher range and better burst , better nerf condi some more

    im not gonna write an essay cus i wrote several and they were all deleted for no reason

  • @Megametzler.5729 said:
    DD being able to attack you while invulnerable would extremely OP too.
    DS is dum though, also agree. :lol:

    DS is core elite ,everyone can use it and its does exact what you said -> do damage while being invulnerable. its not just does crapton of damage(that even bounce between enemies) but also REFLECT projectiles and improvisation can recharge it(ultra dumb). Fought vs thief that got it recharged 3 times in a row, imagine how much fun it was for me xD
    About stealth ...ye I want personally longer reveals too... :)

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @Megametzler.5729 :
    Reaper/necro in general shouldn't 1v1 and ideally have a sustain with it to teamplay.
    SD thief can engage/disengage forever.
    FA is..., well we don't talk about ele :D
    Soulbeast have plethora of soft condi from pet/skills who help much (poison, weakness, cripple ...).
    Ok for the rest.

    But remember that once mesmer drop sword and staff, even with jaunt, it has meh mobility.

    Yepp, I didn't mean to talk specifically about duels but general "investment in fights". Could have been clearer.^^ S/D can engage/disengage, but then they lack damage - and they can still be stunned, which is the main difference from jaunting around.

    And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi mirage. :smile:

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    DD being able to attack you while invulnerable would extremely OP too.
    DS is dum though, also agree. :lol:

    DS is core elite ,everyone can use it and its does exact what you said -> do damage while being invulnerable. its not just does crapton of damage(that even bounce between enemies) but also REFLECT projectiles and improvisation can recharge it(ultra dumb). Fought vs thief that got it recharged 3 times in a row, imagine how much fun it was for me xD
    About stealth ...ye I want personally longer reveals too... :)

    Yeah, I don't know why they overloaded that skill so much... :lol: I mean, yes it was unused and now some use it, but... why did they have to add that much? Feels like FC - blockstununblockabledamagebooncondislol.

  • @Megametzler.5729 said:
    Yeah, I don't know why they overloaded that skill so much... :lol: I mean, yes it was unused and now some use it, but... why did they have to add that much? Feels like FC - blockstununblockabledamagebooncondislol.

    Btw Mirage is no different in terms of 'disengage' . Shadowstep is analog of blink but way better imo. Jaunt have 3x450 range for 90s cd same and used either offensively or mobility. Mirage dropped sword ,no mobility ,no 'easy' disengage,because no more vigor/nerfed frenzy and EM nerfed to oblivion . If you caught into 1x2 by thief/guardian, say good night :disappointed:
    Now not just 'some' use it ,every single thief on this planet use it ...I even seen DE with it...You almost got to them and about to kill them with great cost of your resources and health...and then...daggerstorm.... :trollface:

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @incisorr.9502 said:

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    There were several feedback threads about the Condi Mirage. In order to collate feedback in the most meaningful way, we've merged those threads into this one. Please share your thoughts here. (Please do not create yet another thread.)


    that's nice but the mods are randomly deleting literally every second good post there is for no reason without any justification and then i see posts like " condi mirage has too much of everything while power is high risk and reward " being left here which is a blatant lie and is literally the exact opposite and i've at least given arguments as to why that is but it just gets ignored by low-gold ppl here who have no clue about balance but for some reason think its good to talk about it when they can't even do things as basic as reading skills or understanding stats

    Condi mirage is currently the "weakest meta class" and i don't consider it meta but everyone still does. Reaper can hit for 15k with a single ability with infinite quickness but mirage can't have more than 1 sec vigor XDddddddDddddddddD useFuL tRaItS . Condi mirage has no protection unless u use staff and then u have no dmg, power mirage has protection cus it doesnt take axe traits = clearly power mirage is higher risk despite having better mobility and more protection and higher range and better burst , better nerf condi some more

    im not gonna write an essay cus i wrote several and they were all deleted for no reason

    Well I quote you so hopefully your post remains. And at least some of the people here can reflect maybe in game and ask for advice. I climbed my butt this season from low gold to plat 2 playing an off meta scepter spec. And everytime I win a match I get told I was carried by my spec which has max 5s stealth every 30s, one target break etc.

    This is getting to the point where I feel the only way these players will be happy is
    1. Axe does no condi damage
    2. Sword doesn't evade at all anymore
    3. Mesmer has no stealth access
    4. All vigor traits removed, everytime a mirage dodges they get exhaustion
    5. Ambush skills now hit the mesmer and give bonus to the enemy.

    And lastly, the enemy team can now use your portal. There everyone happy? Jesus

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    .

    And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi

    Ok I'll quote you here. I run axe pistol/scepter torch. I personally find the higher output in damage worth it since mirage mainly relies on two condis confusion and torment

    Am I still OP on the mobility front? I got to play 2 using this off meta spec. I would love to see all these whiners do any work on mirage running that as it is way more high risk than sword.

    But I knew these threads were coming after the elusive mind nerfed because all mirage players switched to infinite horizon. So the complaining just keeps coming

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    .

    And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi

    Ok I'll quote you here. I run axe pistol/scepter torch. I personally find the higher output in damage worth it since mirage mainly relies on two condis confusion and torment

    Am I still OP on the mobility front? I got to play 2 using this off meta spec. I would love to see all these whiners do any work on mirage running that as it is way more high risk than sword.

    But I knew these threads were coming after the elusive mind nerfed because all mirage players switched to infinite horizon. So the complaining just keeps coming

    I still think your mirage has an extremely low risk in investment, yes. :tongue: But I am mostly comparing to... well, not holo and spellbreaker and stuff.^^ Ele for example has to invest quite a lot. Save teleport for disengage or to avoid some burst? Save one ToF on a 50s CD for emergency or to stay on point? Oops, I did it again, talking about ele in the PVP forum! Sorry for that.

    Out of curiosity, do you still use portal or do you focus on dueling on side nodes?

    EM was abandoned in higher tiers quite some time ago for the extra condi damage.

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    .

    And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi

    Ok I'll quote you here. I run axe pistol/scepter torch. I personally find the higher output in damage worth it since mirage mainly relies on two condis confusion and torment

    Am I still OP on the mobility front? I got to play 2 using this off meta spec. I would love to see all these whiners do any work on mirage running that as it is way more high risk than sword.

    But I knew these threads were coming after the elusive mind nerfed because all mirage players switched to infinite horizon. So the complaining just keeps coming

    I still think your mirage has an extremely low risk in investment, yes. :tongue: But I am mostly comparing to... well, not holo and spellbreaker and stuff.^^ Ele for example has to invest quite a lot. Save teleport for disengage or to avoid some burst? Save one ToF on a 50s CD for emergency or to stay on point? Oops, I did it again, talking about ele in the PVP forum! Sorry for that.

    Out of curiosity, do you still use portal or do you focus on dueling on side nodes?

    EM was abandoned in higher tiers quite some time ago for the extra condi damage.

    I use portal based on maps. So what would make mirage high risk say compared to a weaver which btw will just stall out a 1v1 against a mirage on a node. If I see ele on a node they own I don't even bother. For some reason though when I fight Koto he doesn't seem to have a hard time.

    So what do u need to see gutted on this class to make YOU happy.

  • Toron.4856Toron.4856 Member ✭✭✭

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    .

    And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi

    Ok I'll quote you here. I run axe pistol/scepter torch. I personally find the higher output in damage worth it since mirage mainly relies on two condis confusion and torment

    Am I still OP on the mobility front? I got to play 2 using this off meta spec. I would love to see all these whiners do any work on mirage running that as it is way more high risk than sword.

    But I knew these threads were coming after the elusive mind nerfed because all mirage players switched to infinite horizon. So the complaining just keeps coming

    I still think your mirage has an extremely low risk in investment, yes. :tongue: But I am mostly comparing to... well, not holo and spellbreaker and stuff.^^ Ele for example has to invest quite a lot. Save teleport for disengage or to avoid some burst? Save one ToF on a 50s CD for emergency or to stay on point? Oops, I did it again, talking about ele in the PVP forum! Sorry for that.

    Out of curiosity, do you still use portal or do you focus on dueling on side nodes?

    EM was abandoned in higher tiers quite some time ago for the extra condi damage.

    I use portal based on maps. So what would make mirage high risk say compared to a weaver which btw will just stall out a 1v1 against a mirage on a node. If I see ele on a node they own I don't even bother. For some reason though when I fight Koto he doesn't seem to have a hard time.

    So what do u need to see gutted on this class to make YOU happy.

    Buff mirages dmg and w/e u want to be buffed
    Remove dodging while stunned
    Remove attacking while dodging

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Toron.4856 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    .

    And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi

    Ok I'll quote you here. I run axe pistol/scepter torch. I personally find the higher output in damage worth it since mirage mainly relies on two condis confusion and torment

    Am I still OP on the mobility front? I got to play 2 using this off meta spec. I would love to see all these whiners do any work on mirage running that as it is way more high risk than sword.

    But I knew these threads were coming after the elusive mind nerfed because all mirage players switched to infinite horizon. So the complaining just keeps coming

    I still think your mirage has an extremely low risk in investment, yes. :tongue: But I am mostly comparing to... well, not holo and spellbreaker and stuff.^^ Ele for example has to invest quite a lot. Save teleport for disengage or to avoid some burst? Save one ToF on a 50s CD for emergency or to stay on point? Oops, I did it again, talking about ele in the PVP forum! Sorry for that.

    Out of curiosity, do you still use portal or do you focus on dueling on side nodes?

    EM was abandoned in higher tiers quite some time ago for the extra condi damage.

    I use portal based on maps. So what would make mirage high risk say compared to a weaver which btw will just stall out a 1v1 against a mirage on a node. If I see ele on a node they own I don't even bother. For some reason though when I fight Koto he doesn't seem to have a hard time.

    So what do u need to see gutted on this class to make YOU happy.

    Buff mirages dmg and w/e u want to be buffed
    Remove dodging while stunned
    Remove attacking while dodging

    Remove dodging while stunned I agree with. Removing attacking while dodging would require a complete rework of ambush skills and the animations on several skills to be adjusted. Unfortunately you and I both know that part of mirage will never be removed.

    Also: Rev can attack while dodging with a weapon skill, and block while attacking with staff.
    Ranger GS1 has an evade on the AA chain (still see it used sometime)
    S/D thief don't get me started on the damaging evade frames from sword/dagger rework.
    Oh and remember pistolwhip?

    As for the person mentioning holo disengage, toss elixir S, holo skill 2 spam away.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    .

    And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi

    Ok I'll quote you here. I run axe pistol/scepter torch. I personally find the higher output in damage worth it since mirage mainly relies on two condis confusion and torment

    Am I still OP on the mobility front? I got to play 2 using this off meta spec. I would love to see all these whiners do any work on mirage running that as it is way more high risk than sword.

    But I knew these threads were coming after the elusive mind nerfed because all mirage players switched to infinite horizon. So the complaining just keeps coming

    I still think your mirage has an extremely low risk in investment, yes. :tongue: But I am mostly comparing to... well, not holo and spellbreaker and stuff.^^

    While I can't speak for spellbreaker, holo really can't disengage from fights like most other classes. It lacks teleports, and the only true "disengage" it can carry is stealth.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • @MikeL.8260 said:
    First off it's normal to struggle against Mesmers as a new player so don't let that drag you down. It's the most unique class you will ever encounter in any game, MMO or not.
    As a core Ranger (i assume it's what you play) simply put you stand no chance, only Soulbeasts and some Druids can duel with a Mirage. Instead focus your efforts on objectives and helping your team in teamfights, thats your job. Let your team's side noder (War/Thief/Mesmer) deal with the enemy Mirage.

    I started out as a core Ranger. Now I'm trying to learn the Metabattle Sic'em Sniper build. But against the Mesmers I'm just getting owned by conditions. Even if I cleanse they load me right up after all of my dodges and cleanses go on cool down. Should I just abandon Longbow and go Boonbeast instead? Would that help me out or no?

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Toron.4856 said:
    Remove attacking while dodging

    So, remove mirage mechanic?
    What do you propose to give mirage instead?

    The degenerate

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fearless.3569 said:

    @MikeL.8260 said:
    First off it's normal to struggle against Mesmers as a new player so don't let that drag you down. It's the most unique class you will ever encounter in any game, MMO or not.
    As a core Ranger (i assume it's what you play) simply put you stand no chance, only Soulbeasts and some Druids can duel with a Mirage. Instead focus your efforts on objectives and helping your team in teamfights, thats your job. Let your team's side noder (War/Thief/Mesmer) deal with the enemy Mirage.

    I started out as a core Ranger. Now I'm trying to learn the Metabattle Sic'em Sniper build. But against the Mesmers I'm just getting owned by conditions. Even if I cleanse they load me right up after all of my dodges and cleanses go on cool down. Should I just abandon Longbow and go Boonbeast instead? Would that help me out or no?

    Boonbeast would definitely help.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Toron.4856 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    .

    And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi

    Ok I'll quote you here. I run axe pistol/scepter torch. I personally find the higher output in damage worth it since mirage mainly relies on two condis confusion and torment

    Am I still OP on the mobility front? I got to play 2 using this off meta spec. I would love to see all these whiners do any work on mirage running that as it is way more high risk than sword.

    But I knew these threads were coming after the elusive mind nerfed because all mirage players switched to infinite horizon. So the complaining just keeps coming

    I still think your mirage has an extremely low risk in investment, yes. :tongue: But I am mostly comparing to... well, not holo and spellbreaker and stuff.^^ Ele for example has to invest quite a lot. Save teleport for disengage or to avoid some burst? Save one ToF on a 50s CD for emergency or to stay on point? Oops, I did it again, talking about ele in the PVP forum! Sorry for that.

    Out of curiosity, do you still use portal or do you focus on dueling on side nodes?

    EM was abandoned in higher tiers quite some time ago for the extra condi damage.

    I use portal based on maps. So what would make mirage high risk say compared to a weaver which btw will just stall out a 1v1 against a mirage on a node. If I see ele on a node they own I don't even bother. For some reason though when I fight Koto he doesn't seem to have a hard time.

    So what do u need to see gutted on this class to make YOU happy.

    Buff mirages dmg and w/e u want to be buffed
    Remove dodging while stunned
    Remove attacking while dodging

    This, kind of. I wrote a suggestion a bit above:
    Mirage cloak does not work when stunned baseline anymore. EM allows this, get rid of the exhaustion and leave IH as it is. So mirage players have to decide between offense and defense. I think MC to cover casts is fine, but I would like to wait first how this would work out. Any thoughts on this? Would it be too much or to few?

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    .

    And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi

    Ok I'll quote you here. I run axe pistol/scepter torch. I personally find the higher output in damage worth it since mirage mainly relies on two condis confusion and torment

    Am I still OP on the mobility front? I got to play 2 using this off meta spec. I would love to see all these whiners do any work on mirage running that as it is way more high risk than sword.

    But I knew these threads were coming after the elusive mind nerfed because all mirage players switched to infinite horizon. So the complaining just keeps coming

    I still think your mirage has an extremely low risk in investment, yes. :tongue: But I am mostly comparing to... well, not holo and spellbreaker and stuff.^^

    While I can't speak for spellbreaker, holo really can't disengage from fights like most other classes. It lacks teleports, and the only true "disengage" it can carry is stealth.

    I usually count Elixir S for that as well. I mainly used it as a disengage tool, and you have perma swiftness and that holo leap. Which is no teleport of course - which can be good and bad both. Condis might run out during Elixir and could kill you after a teleport. On the other hand, if you don't manage do LoS or something, Elixir is pointless. I think condi mirage as more mobility/disengage capabilities than both (portal at the very least), so let's not go astray in this thread. :smile:

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    This, kind of. I wrote a suggestion a bit above:
    Mirage cloak does not work when stunned baseline anymore. EM allows this, get rid of the exhaustion and leave IH as it is. So mirage players have to decide between offense and defense. I think MC to cover casts is fine, but I would like to wait first how this would work out. Any thoughts on this? Would it be too much or to few?

    I think removing being able to dodge while stunned is fine.

    The people trying to get rid of mirage cloak to cover casts or not be able to attack while dodging want the spec completely useless.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @jportell.2197 said:

    This, kind of. I wrote a suggestion a bit above:
    Mirage cloak does not work when stunned baseline anymore. EM allows this, get rid of the exhaustion and leave IH as it is. So mirage players have to decide between offense and defense. I think MC to cover casts is fine, but I would like to wait first how this would work out. Any thoughts on this? Would it be too much or to few?

    I think removing being able to dodge while stunned is fine.

    The people trying to get rid of mirage cloak to cover casts or not be able to attack while dodging want the spec completely useless.

    Yeah, I also think that would be too much. Dodging while immobilised and for casts is okay, I think. Would leave that open for future changes if it isn't.

    Why do I expect Anet to just randomly reduce some condi applications and increase some cooldowns? :wink:

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    This, kind of. I wrote a suggestion a bit above:
    Mirage cloak does not work when stunned baseline anymore. EM allows this, get rid of the exhaustion and leave IH as it is. So mirage players have to decide between offense and defense. I think MC to cover casts is fine, but I would like to wait first how this would work out. Any thoughts on this? Would it be too much or to few?

    I think removing being able to dodge while stunned is fine.

    The people trying to get rid of mirage cloak to cover casts or not be able to attack while dodging want the spec completely useless.

    Yeah, I also think that would be too much. Dodging while immobilised and for casts is okay, I think. Would leave that open for future changes if it isn't.

    Why do I expect Anet to just randomly reduce some condi applications and increase some cooldowns? :wink:

    Because they will do what they always do. And I honestly think that making mirage cloak unusable while stunned would require too much work on their part

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭

    @jportell.2197 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @jportell.2197 said:

    This, kind of. I wrote a suggestion a bit above:
    Mirage cloak does not work when stunned baseline anymore. EM allows this, get rid of the exhaustion and leave IH as it is. So mirage players have to decide between offense and defense. I think MC to cover casts is fine, but I would like to wait first how this would work out. Any thoughts on this? Would it be too much or to few?

    I think removing being able to dodge while stunned is fine.

    The people trying to get rid of mirage cloak to cover casts or not be able to attack while dodging want the spec completely useless.

    Yeah, I also think that would be too much. Dodging while immobilised and for casts is okay, I think. Would leave that open for future changes if it isn't.

    Why do I expect Anet to just randomly reduce some condi applications and increase some cooldowns? :wink:

    Because they will do what they always do. And I honestly think that making mirage cloak unusable while stunned would require too much work on their part

    I remember vanilla a warrior complaining about phase retreat. And thank God nothing came of that

  • @jportell.2197 said:

    @Fearless.3569 said:

    @MikeL.8260 said:
    First off it's normal to struggle against Mesmers as a new player so don't let that drag you down. It's the most unique class you will ever encounter in any game, MMO or not.
    As a core Ranger (i assume it's what you play) simply put you stand no chance, only Soulbeasts and some Druids can duel with a Mirage. Instead focus your efforts on objectives and helping your team in teamfights, thats your job. Let your team's side noder (War/Thief/Mesmer) deal with the enemy Mirage.

    I started out as a core Ranger. Now I'm trying to learn the Metabattle Sic'em Sniper build. But against the Mesmers I'm just getting owned by conditions. Even if I cleanse they load me right up after all of my dodges and cleanses go on cool down. Should I just abandon Longbow and go Boonbeast instead? Would that help me out or no?

    Boonbeast would definitely help.

    Ok thanks for the advice. I guess I'll have to learn another build. But hopefully my woes end.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭

    you> @Fearless.3569 said:

    @MikeL.8260 said:
    First off it's normal to struggle against Mesmers as a new player so don't let that drag you down. It's the most unique class you will ever encounter in any game, MMO or not.
    As a core Ranger (i assume it's what you play) simply put you stand no chance, only Soulbeasts and some Druids can duel with a Mirage. Instead focus your efforts on objectives and helping your team in teamfights, thats your job. Let your team's side noder (War/Thief/Mesmer) deal with the enemy Mirage.

    I started out as a core Ranger. Now I'm trying to learn the Metabattle Sic'em Sniper build. But against the Mesmers I'm just getting owned by conditions. Even if I cleanse they load me right up after all of my dodges and cleanses go on cool down. Should I just abandon Longbow and go Boonbeast instead? Would that help me out or no?

    there are a couple of things I'd like to say.
    1, you don't need to swap to boonbeast build. although it is technically better for dueling on sidenodes, you don't have to. you can win vs mirage with longbow and gs. you have to use gs about 70% of the time. get you a build that has good condition cleanses, dmg, ( sicem is useless for the most part btw) and uses the soulbeast trait that decreases condition dmg while you have protection. what you wanna do is evade the axe burst, cleave clones and the mesmer with aoe pressure from WI, maul, auto attack on GS, Barrage on LB. you have the tools to pressure them off the point, but the problem is they can evade while attacking so watch out for that. when you cast heal with the right build they will be slowed and crippled. use this to your advantage.

    there are lots of things you can do to win however;
    2, you are new. when you start, there will be many things that seem impossible or "OP" to you. especially when you start playing ranked and fight vs strong players. they pull moves and combos and tricks new players can't comprehend yet. it takes time to learn a game as complex as gw2.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:
    The problem is and always has been that the developers seem to keep balancing around an overbuffed baseline for condition damage because they forgot it has the benefit of ignoring armor. I've been calling this out for years. Unbelievable there are still so many issues.

    Condi needs to be nerfed virtually across the board, and condi removal just needs to basically be removed. The condi removal counterplay meta is stupid.

    I think this design would have been better as a starting point. Instead of having condi damage and power damage there is only one source of damage modifier, where damage over time is not huge, requires precision and ferocity and cannot be removed.

    The problem is we are way too invested in the current system and it works as is.

    Also, condi damage overall, is performing very poorly. Beside mirage and scourge there are not any viable condi builds.

  • Mathias.9657Mathias.9657 Member ✭✭✭

    Chemotherapy seems to be pretty effective against cancer, so try that.

    MESMER MAIN SPOTTED

  • Mathias.9657Mathias.9657 Member ✭✭✭

    I feel like short of deleting mes from pvp, ppl will always have major issues with the class. It is not designed for pvp, it's a straight up pve class. 'confusing your opponent' with clones is not an acceptable pvp mechanic. In the odd chance you land a hit on the mes after tabbing through 9000 clones he's invuln then invis because this games pvp is a joke that the devs will never take seriously. Regardless how powerful it is, no 1 can deny it is pure cancer to fight against. Unfortunately mes is not the only class with this issue either.. every single class has a build like this in pvp which makes you pull your hair out. What a 'fun' game amirite. It would be nice if devs looked past pve for like 2 seconds to see how ridiculous builds are in pvp.

    MESMER MAIN SPOTTED

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fearless.3569 said:
    First up I want to start out as I'm new to the game. I plays Ranger I'm thinking it's going to be my main. I'm trying to get into PvP over here. I'm rank 19 almost to rank 20 to start doing Ranked matches.
    So now to the point. In matches I'm finding fighting against Mirages a impossible battle so far. Much of it is due to my skills. Yes I know. However I must ask the players. How do yall counter and kill Mirages?

    They seem to have every thing from stealth, to damage that I can't keep up with, while being super tanky. Most of my attack don't connect. And when that do connect it's like I'm hitting a brick wall. It's seems that I can't have enough dodges or cleanses to deal with their damage. And after all of that if I start getting them low they just disappear.

    Please help me!

    Condi removal + AOE damage + stability. I do not know what class are you playing, but guardians and engi should have the upper hand.

    As long as you keep the pressure on to destroy clones, you could win with any class against Condi Mirage, but not all classes have the tools necessary for that.

  • make one, lvl up 2, go to mist, tag to unranked. also look at builds on metabattle. watch for role and read what are is pro/cons. It will take you 15min, you'll get fun and knowledge (=power, and there is no knlowledge stat in your amu). A lot of people already said this

  • Ario.8964Ario.8964 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A good deal of it depends on your matchup but these are some of the general rules I use for fighting condi mirage and it's helped me be pretty successful:
    1) When they stealth, count to 3 and then dodge, they are most likely trying a massive condi burst (95% of players playing this build are mechanically meh and won't think to shift around their playstyle so you will see this opener almost every fight) and dodging it will let you avoid most of their damage while putting the player in a relly bad position
    2) The best time to cc them is when they use the axe whirl skill
    3) If you play something like holo, do static discharge bursts (or any other large on demand burst) during all their animation locks to punish them
    4) I find that if you get hit with a burst it's much easier to survive if you kite and start using LoS to force the mes to get in a more confined space where you can dump damage on him. Know that because they have superior mobility, most mirages will not hesitate to chase because they assume they can catch you quickly and pull off a kill. If you can get them to tunnel vision the kill, you can get a very strong bait play out of it.
    5) Manage your condi removal very sparingly, if you blow everything for each little condi you see, you'll be out of cd's before you get a chance to hit the mes. It will drive you crazy but sometimes you gotta get used to letting the condis tick if it saves your cds for a better time.
    6) Do your damage in bursts, mirage has a ton of evasion and invuln to use so trying to do constant damage can be very rough outside of things like weaver that can put out consistent pressure while evading

    Hope those have been helpful, let me know if there's anything else you want to know.

  • @Ario.8964 said:
    A good deal of it depends on your matchup but these are some of the general rules I use for fighting condi mirage and it's helped me be pretty successful:
    1) When they stealth, count to 3 and then dodge, they are most likely trying a massive condi burst (95% of players playing this build are mechanically meh and won't think to shift around their playstyle so you will see this opener almost every fight) and dodging it will let you avoid most of their damage while putting the player in a relly bad position
    2) The best time to cc them is when they use the axe whirl skill
    3) If you play something like holo, do static discharge bursts (or any other large on demand burst) during all their animation locks to punish them
    4) I find that if you get hit with a burst it's much easier to survive if you kite and start using LoS to force the mes to get in a more confined space where you can dump damage on him. Know that because they have superior mobility, most mirages will not hesitate to chase because they assume they can catch you quickly and pull off a kill. If you can get them to tunnel vision the kill, you can get a very strong bait play out of it.
    5) Manage your condi removal very sparingly, if you blow everything for each little condi you see, you'll be out of cd's before you get a chance to hit the mes. It will drive you crazy but sometimes you gotta get used to letting the condis tick if it saves your cds for a better time.
    6) Do your damage in bursts, mirage has a ton of evasion and invuln to use so trying to do constant damage can be very rough outside of things like weaver that can put out consistent pressure while evading

    Hope those have been helpful, let me know if there's anything else you want to know.

    Thank you for the advice! i will put it to good use.

  • breno.5423breno.5423 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    Thing is, none build should have damage, sustain and mobility at the same time.
    Mesmers have all this, and a lot of CC.

    If you want mesmer to be balanced, you must kill one of these 3 (four actually) things: damage, sustain, mobility, or CC spam.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Mathias.9657 said:
    I feel like short of deleting mes from pvp, ppl will always have major issues with the class. It is not designed for pvp, it's a straight up pve class. 'confusing your opponent' with clones is not an acceptable pvp mechanic. In the odd chance you land a hit on the mes after tabbing through 9000 clones he's invuln then invis because this games pvp is a joke that the devs will never take seriously. Regardless how powerful it is, no 1 can deny it is pure cancer to fight against. Unfortunately mes is not the only class with this issue either.. every single class has a build like this in pvp which makes you pull your hair out. What a 'fun' game amirite. It would be nice if devs looked past pve for like 2 seconds to see how ridiculous builds are in pvp.

    Fine, lets do that and remove stealth, CC, condi damage, dodges, invulnerability, blocks, boons, deliberating condis and anything that slightly requires the player to do more than AA.

    That will be awesome. I suggest we change the game name too from GW2 to Pac-Man.

  • @breno.5423 said:
    Thing is, none build should have damage, sustain and mobility at the same time.
    Mesmers have all this, and a lot of CC.

    If you want mesmer to be balanced, you must kill one of these 3 (four actually) things: damage, sustain, mobility, or CC spam.

    So in your not so smart head mesmer shouldnt have anything ...

  • breno.5423breno.5423 Member ✭✭✭

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @breno.5423 said:
    Thing is, none build should have damage, sustain and mobility at the same time.
    Mesmers have all this, and a lot of CC.

    If you want mesmer to be balanced, you must kill one of these 3 (four actually) things: damage, sustain, mobility, or CC spam.

    So in your not so smart head mesmer shouldnt have anything ...

    Read my text again.
    If you are "smart", you will understand.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    Ario's advice to dodge just as you think the big stealth burst is coming is key advice, and helps me secure the home node when I'm capping it alone at the outset of the match and get a mirage visitor.

    I run LB + sw/wh soulbeast, with Berserker amulet. It was a big adjustment for me to move to this build after having run bunker druid for so long, and it was initially hard not to fall back on blocks and Signet of Stone and staff 3 to relieve pressure. However, all my sustain currently comes from evades, positioning, and regen (with the occasional burst heal from merging with Jacaranda), which means I have a better chance of avoiding the condi unload mirages depend on, instead of just letting confusion and torment cut right through Signet of Stone. I still struggle with the temptation to remain on point 100% of the time, but when I play right I'm dancing on and off point, making use of much more of the battle space available.

    If you want to retain longbow in your quest to stand up to mirages, I find it most helpful to pop stability and drop LB 5 around the moment when clones are spawn in the rotation. If I still get shattered and condi bursted through the aoe field and my own dodges, I pop Moa stance, Dolyak stance, and merge into Jacaranda for the f3 heal + resistance. Also remember that LB 5 applies cripple, so unless you stand still next to the clones it's pretty much impossible for them to reach you through the field. So that leaves me protected from condi for a few seconds, pretty much at full health, and if I'm lucky enough to land a few hits on the unstealthed mirage, that often discourages the mirage as I hit pretty hard. I'm also very vigilant about not unloading my full LB 2 into reflect, and am perfectly willing to give it up via weapon swap the moment I see Distortion come up. I rarely land an outright kill in this scenario unless the mirage really messes something up, but many mirages are looking for an easy kill and are dismayed that my glassy build can take what they dish out, if I do it right.

    I'm only plat 1 (consistently around the 1540-1560 range) so I'm not sure this would work that well higher up in the ranks. For the deadliest condi mirages, the solution is just to run. I find that condi mirages often don't have the ability to chase me down if I apply that stability+resistance kit as I am disengaging, so I've denied them the kill, and am well on the way to a full reset so I can choose to go back and contest the mirage (usually a bad idea) or support my team elsewhere (what I do most of the time).

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Mathias.9657 said:
    I feel like short of deleting mes from pvp, ppl will always have major issues with the class. It is not designed for pvp, it's a straight up pve class. 'confusing your opponent' with clones is not an acceptable pvp mechanic. In the odd chance you land a hit on the mes after tabbing through 9000 clones he's invuln then****_ invis because this games pvp is a joke that the devs will never take seriously._**** Regardless how powerful it is, no 1 can deny it is pure cancer to fight against. Unfortunately mes is not the only class with this issue either.. every single class has a build like this in pvp which makes you pull your hair out. What a 'fun' game amirite. It would be nice if devs looked past pve for like 2 seconds to see how ridiculous builds are in pvp.

    Then neither should you.

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @breno.5423 said:
    Thing is, none build should have damage, sustain and mobility at the same time.
    Mesmers have all this, and a lot of CC.

    If you want mesmer to be balanced, you must kill one of these 3 (four actually) things: damage, sustain, mobility, or CC spam.

    A lot of CC?
    This the most played mesmer build currently : https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Carrion_Ineptitude
    Illuminate me on where do you see a lot CC...because besides Diversion,Chaos Storm and Daze of Phantasmal Mage I dont see any more CC.
    Sword/Pistol will offer more CC and the mobility you speak of but at the cost of conditions.

  • @breno.5423 said:

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @breno.5423 said:
    Thing is, none build should have damage, sustain and mobility at the same time.
    Mesmers have all this, and a lot of CC.

    If you want mesmer to be balanced, you must kill one of these 3 (four actually) things: damage, sustain, mobility, or CC spam.

    So in your not so smart head mesmer shouldnt have anything ...

    Read my text again.
    If you are "smart", you will understand.

    actually excuse me for not reading properly :disappointed:
    lack of sleep make me skip lots of stuff it seems
    but what is cc spam? have you ever seen holo cc?

  • breno.5423breno.5423 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @breno.5423 said:
    Thing is, none build should have damage, sustain and mobility at the same time.
    Mesmers have all this, and a lot of CC.

    If you want mesmer to be balanced, you must kill one of these 3 (four actually) things: damage, sustain, mobility, or CC spam.

    A lot of CC?
    This the most played mesmer build currently : https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Carrion_Ineptitude
    Illuminate me on where do you see a lot CC...because besides Diversion,Chaos Storm and Daze of Phantasmal Mage I dont see any more CC.
    Sword/Pistol will offer more CC and the mobility you speak of but at the cost of conditions.

    If you are chrono for example, you may perma CC somebody with shield + "F3" + gravity well 2x.
    Staff ones may perma daze 4ever as well.

    The worse is that F3 has no cast or animation, what make it even stronger than thief's steal.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    If you are chrono for example, you may perma CC somebody with shield + "F3" + gravity well 2x.

    You can't because every meta builds have something to go out of CC

    Staff ones may perma daze 4ever as well.

    Yes, best CC of the game.

    The worse is that F3 has no cast or animation, what make it even stronger than thief's steal.

    Then it's not a problem if we exchange them ?

    Not to say that near every meta builds have hudge amount of CC today.

  • breno.5423breno.5423 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    Its ok to have lot of CC, but you can't have lots of CC, and mobility, and damage, and sustain, all at the same time.

    And yes, mesmer isnt the only one who deserve nerfs.

  • jportell.2197jportell.2197 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @breno.5423 said:
    Its ok to have lot of CC, but you can't have lots of CC, and mobility, and damage, and sustain, all at the same time.

    And yes, mesmer isnt the only one who deserve nerfs.

    People keep talking about this mirage sustain. And I'm just not seeing. Mirage has ONE stunbreak in the meta build, jaunt is a joke as it won't even teleport you out of most cleave, it could not teleport at all and it would still be taken for the condi clear.

    Mirage cannot sustain through damage, its heal is very poor, and jaunt has already been nerfed, then nerfed again.

    They could remove the daze from sword ambush skill and it would still be taken as well.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.