Oh No! Not Spirit Weapons Again!

Yes here we go again beating on that poor dead horse again...Spirit Weapons.Understandably most players have moved past this rather annoying and rather long running disappointment set of utilities but here is my misplaced attempt at maybe bring a potential level of usefulness to them through a change to the trait Eternal Armory and a slight addition to the base version of each of the utilities.Without going through all of the various attempts at usefulness of iterations of the utilities during the game where they were nerfed , buffed, and or modified what we are finally left with are a set of utilities that have very limited utility except in very limited situations. My goal here is to improve their utility without making them to overpowered and accomplishing this without requiring a complete redesign of the utilities themselves.My idea is relatively simple instead of having all of the weapons cause burning on a strike with Eternal Armory have each weapon gain an additional effect inline with what the core use of that particular weapon already is designed for as well as looking at each weapon for possible slight improvement on their baseline abilities as was done on the Sword of Justice in the previous patch but only as needed.

Sword of Justice: As it stands it is designed to be a straight damage weapon with the stacks of Vulnerability just increasing its overall effectiveness and the most recent addition of 3 seconds of Cripple also improves it effectiveness when used in conjunction with the Dragonhunter’s traits Dulled Senses and Zealot’s Aggression but I also would suggest modifying Binding Jeopardy so that it applies Vulnerability with any application of a Soft CC not just the Immobilization and Blinding so this would come into play on Slow, Chill, Weakness and Cripple. As it is presently designed Eternal Armory having it cause Burning on every hit works well and in my view shouldn’t be changed.

Hammer of Wisdom in the version before the implementation of the Ammo system was the better damaging between the Sword and the Hammer because the Hammer would use the 3 chain hammer attack when it was attacking outside of the Command skill being triggered , now the skill is mainly used as a Crowd Control weapon, that being said I would say that the number of targets should be raised to 5 instead of the present 3 and its range be moved out to the 1200 from the present 900. Using the recent change to Sword Of Justice where it gained the additional Cripple effect brings into question as to if the Hammer should gain an additional effect or in some way be improved as part of its base line abilities, I would have say no due its main use now is as Crowd Control and the Knockdown is rather powerful in its ability to interrupt opponents. That being said I believe that for the Eternal Armory effect a better choice other than Burning would be to have it create the Glacial Heart effect either as it is or some version thereof being as the damage increase would not be overwhelming and the Chill would support the overall Crowd Control use of the weapon.

Shield of the Avenger was and still is a Defensive weapon creating a protective dome similar to Sanctuary but without the healing effect or small Knockback, or keeping out opponents as far as I have seen it still does destroy projectiles and applies Weakness with small amount of damage but it also lost the Aegis and more importantly the Stun Breaker from the version before the Ammo system at present all these combined leave it very lackluster and generally not worth taking compared to other skill options. This should as a baseline should also give you Protection(3 to 5 seconds) in addition if not instead of Weakness and as its companion effect from Eternal Armory a lesser version of Brilliance (lesser damage but maintain the Blind effect). This would still work with concept of a defensive weapon without allowing the player to be unhittable.

Bow of Truth was and still is a support healing weapon and with its reworking from the Ammo system and with the increase in its radius it has become much more useful overall, the only modifications I would suggest is to have it give Regeneration in addition to its baseline healing and from the Eternal Armory have it cleanse a condition for each hit , again this isn't overpowering it nor is it deviating from the concept of the weapon.

Decent analysis. I like your proposed changes too, especially the shield. I might also add that the shield needs to be instant cast, or 0.25s cast with the dome emerging directly at the end of the cast. As it is currently, it's almost useless as projectile defence. Even if you react somewhat predictively, the bubble still comes up way too late to be of any use.

A good example of this from personal experience: I get hit by ranger longbow 4. Realizing what's coming next, I immediately stunbreak, then buttonmash on shield spirit weapon, but by the time the bubble is up to block projectiles, I've already eaten most of rapid fire... what's even the point.... may as well have just dodged the attack.

I would propose the shield be 1/4s cast, grant 4s protection, and block projectiles for 4 seconds (down 1 s from its current 5 s block) in addition to what it currently does. I would actually use it and be able to stick it into two different builds I regularly use if it worked like this.

Totally accurate on the issue with cast time for the Shield, thanks for commenting. Would love to see more of these skills that have been totally left behind be reworked slightly so they could see some use again....like does anybody actually use Hallowed Ground utility ever? From my experience everybody uses Stand Your Ground shout for the Stability and the Retaliation.

Sword of Justice is in a good spot for DH, maybe could use a tiny damage increase. Also would like to see it being ground target.

Bow of Truth is a nice pick for support FB, but I wouldn't mind it applying some regen as well. Condi cleanse on each tick might be a bit much though (15 cleanses), even if linked to a Grandmaster, then again, I don't think anyone would run Zeal on support FB still.

Shield of the Avenger is great for deleting red orbs at Arkk. What I would really like to see is it applying Aegis as well to the group, to block the shockwave that comes with it, as Courage doesn't line up with the frequency. Stability could work as well. Additionally I would like to see it fixed that the skill is being completely culled out, as right now it's entirely invisible to allies as well as yourself at Arkk.

Hammer of Wisdom needs something else, I agree. I was considering it for CC on my support FB, but Bane Signet with Perfect Inscriptions to share out Power to the party is just way superior. May see use if you want to run Virtues over Radiance as Support FB for CC, when you for some reason need more heals, but generally it either needs no CD and a faster recharge for massive breakbar damage in PvE, or some other added benefit. Not sure if chill would be convincing enough.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:Totally accurate on the issue with cast time for the Shield, thanks for commenting. Would love to see more of these skills that have been totally left behind be reworked slightly so they could see some use again....like does anybody actually use Hallowed Ground utility ever? From my experience everybody uses Stand Your Ground shout for the Stability and the Retaliation.

I sometimes switch in Hallowed Ground for the endboss in the Chaos Fractal on DH, but that's about it. Longer duration on both the skill and the Stability it applies would be nice for that though. That said, I wouldn't terribly miss it if reworked.

I can understand all of your points , what I was trying for is something viable but maybe more understated as a starting point for players and others to look at these very under used skills and ways to improve them without immediately killing the discussion because some people just it as overpowered and will not even consider anything else.I don't consider any of points set in stone at all , if the Dev's put Stability, Barrier, Daze or even Stun as something that was available in any of these weapons it would be awesome but I honestly don't see it due to there power and impact on game play, that being said Aegis might be a better option over Protection for the Shield but they both have advantages depending on the situation.Thank you for commenting I am actually interested in seeing what can be thought of to improve these and other skills so to improve our options for play and counter play in the different game modes.

I'd like bow of truth to apply a waterfield.

I'm also not totally sure, but I don't think bow of truth can proc the grandmaster trait since it doesn't hit enemies...that needs to be fixed.

I like your other suggestions.

No it doesn't gain anything from the Grandmaster trait as it stands which is odd considering how many traits that Elementalist has that have a unique effect depending what element they are attuned to at the time, so this was also my attempt at addressing this at the sametime trying improve their overall usefulness.

Bow is fine, with as much Regen and Condi Cleanse that FB already puts out, buffing it anymore would be OP.

Hammer has a niche role, I take it when I specifically need as much Break Bar power as possible - the two charges put it over Bane signet in that single regard. IMO, it should have it's count recharge reduced to lower then Bane Signet, so that it keeps it's break power over extended fights as well.

Sword is... ok. I don't use it in any of my builds, but it's not bad if you want a damage dealing utility and don't want a DH trap. It needs to apply it's initial damage sooner, it's way to easy to strafe away from.

Shield is... honestly I've never used it. It seems so inferior to the consecrations or FB mantras that I've never even bothered testing it in combat.

For me shield went from the only spirit weapon i was using consistently (you could use it to negate a lot of bad stuff coming towards you in fractals, most notably the fire ball from the volcano boss that procs the agony) to now being the least useful of the bunch (although i still never use the bow).The ammo changes were pretty slap-dash without much thought given to the use cases of the weapons, which leaves a lot to desire from the end result. Not to mention it kinda killed the overall theme of the weapons, for me at least.

Valid points when looking at using some of them with the other Elite specializations but I was also looking at them to be used with base Guardian , after all that was when they were put into the game and to be fair they are not the only skill that has been set aside because of the greater usefulness offered within some of the Elites themselves. I am only looking at them as they apply to the basic Guardian mainly with some possible use by the Elites where appropriate because again if they were to useful they would either be viewed as overpowered(NERF! NERF!) or they become the absolute to go skill in all situations which is what I'm trying to counter by offering some small ideas that could lead build diversity. Note with regard to the Shield , I had same issue pre Ammo versus post Ammo but I couldn't see them giving a Stun Breaker on an Ammo skill so I have tried improve it in design where they at least might give some consideration : (as was pointed out shorten the cast time), the Protection (or Aegis) ,and the Blindness adding these to the already existing Weakness might not make them the go to skill but it at least would make them something to consider depending the situation.Thank you for your comments and bringing forth points up.

I'd still prefer them to make the armory truly eternal by the way of Chronophantasma (resummon a second weapon after the first one finishes its ability). Add a base burn amount to Sword of Justice (it was the only weapon to gain any relevant amount of burning to begin with), and call it a day.

Lots of good thoughts as always when it comes to SW.

I on the other hand has a completely different approach to fixing them.

Just remove them from the game and make them actual spirit weapons. Something that changes the spirit of the guardian. And for that to pan out they should remove the support role from the guardian when used and make the guardian a self centered son of a kitten.

Imo they should have been stances from the beginning, a mechanic (not in sw though) that the guardian had access to in closed beta but that for some odd reason where removed. I think in general the ammo system is good and can be kept even if they were changed into more of a stance system.

BoW of truth. Heals the guardian for x amount when activated and retain virtue of resolves passive while it is equipped and also increase the healing from virtue of resolve. Stack with Shield of the Avenger and Absolute Resolution.

Shield of the Avenger removes x conditions when activated and retain virtue of resolves passive while it is equipped and also increase the healing from virtue of resolve. Stack with Bow of truth and Absolute Resolution.

Sword of Justice. Increase the guardians damage with x% for x seconds when activated and retain virtue of justice passive while it is equipped. Virtue of Justice causes burning more frequently and stack with permeathing wrath.

Hammer of Wisdom. The guardians next attack knocks down the enemy and retain virtue of courage passive while it is equipped. Breaks stun.

If balanced properly this would mean that a selfcentric core guardian hybrid build would be possible around spirit weapons, virtues, zeal and radiance.

I like the idea that Eternal Armory should give individual buffs to each SW, although anything is better than some extra bonus fire damage that doesn't even work with half the SW. But I'm a little concern with Eternal Armory's position in Zeal. IMO Zeal is a PVE damage line only. It is super rarely use in any PVP build and is impossible to use in a support build. So how do your changes promote its higher use? Keep in mind, besides Sword of justice which would stay the same as it currently is, all your changes need to be worth trading an entire trait line from most builds to obtain. Imagine giving up either Radiance, Valor, Virtue, or and Elite Spec for Eternal Armory.

I personally think you need to either move Eternal Weapons to a more obtainable and universal trait line, or its bonus effects need to be clearly keep in mind why people are going into the Zeal line to begin with ... basically increasing their damage.

Ok that is a really good point with regard to the Zeal line and this trait , to be honest you can't fully compensate for damage for all of the different Spirit Weapons because they each fill a different role but if you gave the Shield Aegis instead my suggestion (or in addition to) of Protection then Wrathful Spirit trait would have give you Retaliation as it ended and Fiery Wrath would improve the Sword and they could also be improved if my suggestion on Binding Jeopardy were implemented(where it is triggered by any Soft CC not just Immobilize and Blind I also think the Vulnerability it applies should either have a longer duration or 5 stacks vs 3). While this doesn't prefectly address the Zeal trait being primarily a damage increasing trait line I feel it moves the needle some what without requiring a more radical rework of the skills and the traits. Thanks again the feedback

I play Core Guard and I have no problems with any of the Spirit Weapons - frankly they have always occupied at least one of my utility slots. Might be different for a DH as they have to give up some traps, but I used to main Hammer for extra CC, but switched to sword after they added crippling (soft CC). If I'm in a fight where heavy CC is needed, I'll swap out another utility and run sword and hammer at the same time.

@Kam.4092 said:I just wish the forcing to have a target could be reworked. Also some enemies it doesn't even work on, like the Octovines in Auric Basin meta.

Kam.4092 brought up there targeting issue and reminded me of another issue that could help with SW usage is if all of them were able to be ground targeted.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:

@Kam.4092 said:I just wish the forcing to have a target could be reworked. Also some enemies it doesn't even work on, like the Octovines in Auric Basin meta.

That would be annoying to me honestly. I’d rather it appear on the Guardian if there’s no target to cast it on.

What I have always found useful with the ground targeting was for in the WvW or with those large mixed trash mobs becuase with the ground targeting I could center the circle to maximize the number of targets inside where as if it were centered on a specific target I may have large gap of empty space.

I'm going to be boring but straightforward - just make them work like necromancer pets and have no duration, and tweak as needed for balance. I'd be mad for them then and I suspect many others would be too.

They look cool as hell. Or heaven. Or whatever you're into.

I agree that the Spirit Weapons should have been like Necromancer's minions. No duration, but can be killed.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I play Core Guard and I have no problems with any of the Spirit Weapons - frankly they have always occupied at least one of my utility slots. Might be different for a DH as they have to give up some traps, but I used to main Hammer for extra CC, but switched to sword after they added crippling (soft CC). If I'm in a fight where heavy CC is needed, I'll swap out another utility and run sword and hammer at the same time.

The discussion is more towards PvP. And honestly, no one uses any SW except SoJ in PvE anyway. And the funny thing is that over the last year or so Anet keeps pushing for SW to be PvP viable, yet the refuse to understood why they are not. This is a serious issue in terms of game development. So much time wasted over bullshit that could have been well put to use if an Anet dev bothered to read any feedback or even try to play it in sPvP for a couple of games.

So much wasted effort.

I propose we make SW instant cast, and (except for the bow) cast 2 skills from the corresponding guardian's weapon, e.g. SoJ can cast Binding Blade and immediately pull, then follow up with Whirling Wrath; SotA can cast both shield skills, etc.