Mirage/mesmer is OP?

Is Mirage/Mesmer OP or maybe people are just confused about how to fight them? I hear a lot of "it takes no skill" "its way to powerful" etc. Wondering if maybe those people just can't comprehend how to fight them, what to look for when fighting, what weaknesses there are or maybe they just are too powerful? Just curious

Biggest thing people have a problem with against mirage is the detargeting. But I'll give people a little hint.

If the mesmer drops target and didn't stealth, 9/10 times for me retargetting happens in less than a second with tab targeting. You don't actually have to try that hard to find the real mesmer.

Mirage gave mesmer the ability to finally mess with the opponents mind because now the Dodge animation for mesmer is different than other classes.

Mirage is still nothing in the grand scheme of things when compared to

-firebrands-spell breakers-holosmith-reapers

The thing about Mesmer is that it has an extremely bloated tool kit. This becomes very obvious when you dig deeper into traits and design.

I’ll give one simple example. Flash Spark is an Engineer toolbelt skill that provides an instant cast PBAoE blind— it has been given a 40 second recharge for balance. This type of skill is pretty powerful, as it is effectively a free dodge/miss that becomes more valuable the better you are. Using it on a key skill can completely change the course of a fight.

Blinding Dissipation is a single Mesmer trait that turns every shatter skill into the equivalent of Flash Spark, an instant cast PBAoE blind, with recharges of 12, 25, 38, and 50 seconds. What this means is that not only can a good Mesmer use its dodges on key skills, but it almost always has the option to employ at least one PBAoE blind should they happen to be out of dodges while in melee range.

Now, this might not seem like a lot, but at high play levels it allows a good Mesmer to further shut down key skills used by opponents, and when you add it all up this one trait effectively gives Mesmers the ability to have an instant cast blind every 6-7seconds. Or for comparison, what is valued at 40 seconds recharge for one class is given to Mesmer four times over for a single master trait and recharges of 12, 25, 38, and 50 seconds.

The problem with Mesmer is that it has both a low skill floor, but also when you dig deeper that it has been granted far and away the highest skill ceiling.

A class is only as OP as the player playing it is capable of making it. That goes for all of them. And for some reason, 9 out 10 roaming/havoc encounters seem to not be mesmers.

The few times I do meet mirages... I mostly kill them on my own mirage hybrid bruiser, lol. No really, there are so, so many bad mirages. A couple of days ago I met one that thought it was a great idea to backtrack the entire fight. Just walking backwards. All the time. And kitten if it didnt work, I think I failed my scepter channel twice because he was moving too slow when I charged at him lol. Of course he was hurting me about as effectivly as a tree trying to kill a dog pissing on it, but still. Luckily I was only fighting a reaper and a camp at the same time.

@Julius Seizure.4985 said:The thing about Mesmer is that it has an extremely bloated tool kit. This becomes very obvious when you dig deeper into traits and design.

I’ll give one simple example. Flash Spark is an Engineer toolbelt skill that provides an instant cast PBAoE blind— it has been given a 40 second recharge for balance. This type of skill is pretty powerful, as it is effectively a free dodge/miss that becomes more valuable the better you are. Using it on a key skill can completely change the course of a fight.

Blinding Dissipation is a single Mesmer trait that turns every shatter skill into the equivalent of Flash Spark, an instant cast PBAoE blind, with recharges of 12, 25, 38, and 50 seconds. What this means is that not only can a good Mesmer use its dodges on key skills, but it almost always has the option to employ at least one PBAoE blind should they happen to be out of dodges while in melee range.

Now, this might not seem like a lot, but at high play levels it allows a good Mesmer to further shut down key skills used by opponents, and when you add it all up this one trait effectively gives Mesmers the ability to have an instant cast blind every 6-7seconds. Or for comparison, what is valued at 40 seconds recharge for one class is given to Mesmer four times over for a single master trait and recharges of 12, 25, 38, and 50 seconds.

The problem with Mesmer is that it has both a low skill floor, but also when you dig deeper that it has been granted far and away the highest skill ceiling.

Wow. What a horrible comparison. Does blinding dissipation give us a lot of blinds? Yes. Is any mesmer ever going to use F3 or F4 for a blind? No, those shatters will not be used to blind someone. They are far too powerful to be used just for hte purpose of blinding someone.

It depends. I honestly think condi mirage with recent nerfs is under performing. For a build that is forced into much 1v1, it is at a disadvantage against so many builds. I think power shatter is fine.

The problem with Mesmer it confuses the hell out of new players/less experienced players. And condis also confuse less experienced players. And thus condi mirage gets much hate, with no merit.

Chrono is out performing in PvP. Core Mesmer does not exist.

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Julius Seizure.4985 said:The thing about Mesmer is that it has an extremely bloated tool kit. This becomes very obvious when you dig deeper into traits and design.

I’ll give one simple example. Flash Spark is an Engineer toolbelt skill that provides an instant cast PBAoE blind— it has been given a 40 second recharge for balance. This type of skill is pretty powerful, as it is effectively a free dodge/miss that becomes more valuable the better you are. Using it on a key skill can completely change the course of a fight.

Blinding Dissipation is a single Mesmer trait that turns every shatter skill into the equivalent of Flash Spark, an instant cast PBAoE blind, with recharges of 12, 25, 38, and 50 seconds. What this means is that not only can a good Mesmer use its dodges on key skills, but it almost always has the option to employ at least one PBAoE blind should they happen to be out of dodges while in melee range.

Now, this might not seem like a lot, but at high play levels it allows a good Mesmer to further shut down key skills used by opponents, and when you add it all up this one trait effectively gives Mesmers the ability to have an instant cast blind every 6-7seconds. Or for comparison, what is valued at 40 seconds recharge for one class is given to Mesmer four times over for a single master trait and recharges of 12, 25, 38, and 50 seconds.

The problem with Mesmer is that it has both a low skill floor, but also when you dig deeper that it has been granted far and away the highest skill ceiling.

Bummer. I must have really messed up then when I used F3 to blind a Berserker in balanced stance as he used Headbutt in my outnumbered roaming fight the their day. At least I still won though. /s

My point is that yes, you would ideally want to use this skill for its daze, but being able to nullify a foe’s key ability is also valuable. And having an instant cast blind on 12 seconds cd for a Condi Mesmer is a godsend when your clones are cleaved down and you are getting hit with counter pressure.

This class has so many tools and ways to use them. That is part of what makes it OP.

People were complaining Mesmer was OP when PvP turned into 5 v 5 Cele eles pre HoT. They will complain that Mesmers are OP when Anet finally gives up and deletes the class.

@Levetty.1279 said:People were complaining Mesmer was OP when PvP turned into 5 v 5 Cele eles pre HoT. They will complain that Mesmers are OP when Anet finally gives up and deletes the class.There's so much truth to this.

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Julius Seizure.4985 said:The thing about Mesmer is that it has an extremely bloated tool kit. This becomes very obvious when you dig deeper into traits and design.

I’ll give one simple example. Flash Spark is an Engineer toolbelt skill that provides an instant cast PBAoE blind— it has been given a 40 second recharge for balance. This type of skill is pretty powerful, as it is effectively a free dodge/miss that becomes more valuable the better you are. Using it on a key skill can completely change the course of a fight.

Blinding Dissipation is a single Mesmer trait that turns every shatter skill into the equivalent of Flash Spark, an instant cast PBAoE blind, with recharges of 12, 25, 38, and 50 seconds. What this means is that not only can a good Mesmer use its dodges on key skills, but it almost always has the option to employ at least one PBAoE blind should they happen to be out of dodges while in melee range.

Now, this might not seem like a lot, but at high play levels it allows a good Mesmer to further shut down key skills used by opponents, and when you add it all up this one trait effectively gives Mesmers the ability to have an instant cast blind every 6-7seconds. Or for comparison, what is valued at 40 seconds recharge for one class is given to Mesmer four times over for a single master trait and recharges of 12, 25, 38, and 50 seconds.

Wow. What a horrible comparison. Does blinding dissipation give us a lot of blinds? Yes. Is any mesmer ever going to use F3 or F4 for a blind? No, those shatters will not be used to blind someone. They are far too powerful to be used just for hte purpose of blinding someone.

You are mistaken. Blind in high play is very often more powerful than an invul or a daze.

people are just confused about how to fight them

yes, mirage is op

I wouldn't call Mirage OP but it's a really forgiving class to play.

@"brappish.8715" said:Is Mirage/Mesmer OP or maybe people are just confused about how to fight them? I hear a lot of "it takes no skill" "its way to powerful" etc. Wondering if maybe those people just can't comprehend how to fight them, what to look for when fighting, what weaknesses there are or maybe they just are too powerful? Just curious

it's just noob eater as ever :

• people who spams skills when under confusion find it op.
• people who burst when mes is evading/mirage cloaking find it op.
• people who can't target the mesmer under illusions find it op.
• etc

The main problem is casuals player who want to win easily with their teamfight exotic spec (I facepalm everytime I see a gard/fb who die to condi mesmer, come on guys...) are way more numerous than players who think about their builds pro/cons.

Once you know how to evade burst and more generally how to play, you find the 4 mes in top 60 ratio we have now.

@viquing.8254 said:

Currently, for me in PvP context (not WvW unbalanced stats.), about condi mirage :Gards, hybrid FB, boon soulbeast win.Weaver, droods do long fight but cap the point at the end.reaper, scourge, holo lose but can decap the point before dying.SB, thieves, Rev do fight depending of players.Other specs lose.

About direct damage builds :Thieves, revs, SB, holo, hybrid FB, gards, dh, rangers, soubleasts win.

There are better duelists (fighting in node), better +1, and way better teamfighter. That's all.

@Julius Seizure.4985 said:The thing about Mesmer is that it has an extremely bloated tool kit. This becomes very obvious when you dig deeper into traits and design.

I’ll give one simple example. Flash Spark is an Engineer toolbelt skill that provides an instant cast PBAoE blind— it has been given a 40 second recharge for balance. This type of skill is pretty powerful, as it is effectively a free dodge/miss that becomes more valuable the better you are. Using it on a key skill can completely change the course of a fight.

Blinding Dissipation is a single Mesmer trait that turns every shatter skill into the equivalent of Flash Spark, an instant cast PBAoE blind, with recharges of 12, 25, 38, and 50 seconds. What this means is that not only can a good Mesmer use its dodges on key skills, but it almost always has the option to employ at least one PBAoE blind should they happen to be out of dodges while in melee range.

Now, this might not seem like a lot, but at high play levels it allows a good Mesmer to further shut down key skills used by opponents, and when you add it all up this one trait effectively gives Mesmers the ability to have an instant cast blind every 6-7seconds. Or for comparison, what is valued at 40 seconds recharge for one class is given to Mesmer four times over for a single master trait and recharges of 12, 25, 38, and 50 seconds.

The problem with Mesmer is that it has both a low skill floor, but also when you dig deeper that it has been granted far and away the highest skill ceiling.

Using that as a blind also removes a massive part of the damage output options though. (mind wrack and cry) So you sacrifice damage for survival.

@Zawn.9647 said:yes, mirage is op

Why?

@brappish.8715 said:

@Zawn.9647 said:yes, mirage is op

Mirage is one of the few specs with 2 viable buildsPower Shatter can 1shot most of your opponents - however its not that easy to pull offCondi Mirage can flood opponents with annoying conditions like torment (damage when moving), confusion (damage when using skill) and burning (flat damage)First problem: condi flood is way too frequent... it doesnt matter if you dodge the condi application or use your cleanse since they can re-apply it all in a matter of seconds

Next its the mesmer/mirage toolkit where you have many ways of surviving or disengaging...Messed your 1shot as power shatter or are you losing your fight as condi? No problem, you can:

• Blink
• Portal
• Dodge+Sword1 (ambush skill) to do a huge leap forward

Can't disengage at the moment? No problem, you can:

• Sword 2 to get invul
• F4 to get invul
• Dodge WHILE STUNNED - so no matter if you messed up and got stunned in the middle of the fight, just dodge the burst while you still stunned

Also for newer players there's even the illusion spam problem where you target the mesmer, suddenly +3 mesmer appear on your screen/minimap, you need to find out the real one again, only for them to use a skill that shuffles the illusions and makes opponents lose target...

The biggest issue is that mesmer is strong in every aspect of the game... Be it damage, survival, disengage, mobility... They don't have 1-2 strong things going for them, they have everything.

Necros can condi flood as well... but they can't disengage or use multiple invulsThief can disengage pretty nice but they're doomed if opponents time their stunsetc...

well, that's MY feeling towards mirage in general - others may or may not agree :P

I'm gonna weigh in on this one:

I do keep track of Mesmers encountered per roaming session. And I haven't played as much as I would've liked in the last 10 days as I'm relocating.My record in WvW, show as follows:3 Mirage, 2 Chrono, 0 Core Session: 3:45:062 Mirage, 0 Chrono, 1 Core Session: 2:31:482 Mirage, 0 Chrono, 0 Core Session: 2:47:58I don't count repeat encounters. The 2 Chronos were in a Guild Zerg and from what I recall were tank/buff bots.This is NA T 1-2 data since the last balance patch 10/02.

To sum it up, If class saturation is indicative of performance, Mesmer is under-performing by a large margin post patch. However since Mesmer, has always been a rather unpopular class (as far as the masses are concerned), due to its unique mechanics and inherent complexity. I'd say:If saturation is indicative of performance, Mesmer is slightly under-performing.

@Zawn.9647 said:

@brappish.8715 said:

@Zawn.9647 said:yes, mirage is op

• Blink
• Portal
• Dodge+Sword1 (ambush skill) to do a huge leap forward

• Sword 2 to get invul
• F4 to get invul
• Dodge WHILE STUNNED - so no matter if you messed up and got stunned in the middle of the fight, just dodge the burst while you still stunned

This is why people find them OP, they're weaknesses are just less obvious lol. All that stuff you mentioned is super true. Mesmer is a great class (just like every class) but mesmer has weaknesses that just aren't as obvious. Those disadvantages (just like advantages are arguable) for condi mesmers are things like range. Furthermore, any mirage with an axe as the main hand is easily susceptible to heavy CCs (warrior), other condis/aoe condi (scourge), Heavy burst damage (dead eye) etc. Really I think its just a matter of playing a waiting game with them. Most mirages/mesmers are so quick to try and burst down a target. Wait it out, defend your self, then counter and give high pressure. Stay on target, look for icons on the mesmers health bar ( buffs, food, and utilities, etc).

Also, people are forgetting things like if a mesmer uses :BlinkPortalThen they're literally sacrificing other viable options that make them more offensively powerful. (any mantras, gap closers or condi utility buffs, Invisibility)

90% of mesmers that play the one-shot burst (including my self lol) Are frequently waiting to sucker punch you and will use 4-5 abilities at once making us pretty much in the fight or flight mode depending on your health bar. When I fail to one shot someone, if I am positioned wrong, I need to run and gain space and wait for cooldowns or cleave. There's nothing after that. Im pretty squishy also, i can get one shotted by dead eyes almost every time, spell breakers can drain half my health with one shot, Burn guardians mutilate me, necros I've figured out, but i pretty much can't stand anywhere close to them ( especially spvp capping points), they'll win the condi battle almost always...easy to beat on greatsword though, engis are tough and Ive been having a hell of a time with thes revs.

Its just all about knowing your opponent. You aren't wrong tho, mesmer in the right hands is absolutely powerful...but not overpowered. You can easily pick up mesmer, but you cant just master it. You'll get outplayed every time.

all in all, i fight mesmers just like everyone else, i dont find them any more annoying then any other class.

I consider myself a decent mesmer player in WvW and i have fought many other classes and players, Some players of the higher/lower and similar rank demonstrate great skill in keeping me targeted even after coming out of stealth and will even win the battle.

Other players i have fought of higher/lower and similar rank i can totally outplay and it's like they fought a mesmer for the very first time, These i believe are the ones who will flock to the forums asking for the mesmer to be nerfed. Mirage isn't OP it's just that SOME people just don't know how to fight them or don't bother to learn the mechanics.

The dodge exists outside of the combat systems 'rules', and sure it's super strong and interesting but it's pretty un-fun to play against. Op or not I think it's fair players can post asking about nerfs when stuff like that exists.

(plat wvw pvp mirage main)

@"Zawn.9647" said:Power Shatter can 1shot most of your opponents - however its not that easy to pull off

This however has become a very poor argument for anything. Pretty much all classes can "1shot" players nowadays. Its hard to come up with one that cant.

I mean just the other day someone posted that clip of a norn ranger in WvW stealthing, taking raven shape and bam 35k damage lol on a dd.

double post

There was a lot of tuning down allready with changing the ammount of confusion one can put out. Most Condi Mirages take Dueling + Illusions i think, which means they got no sustained healing from inspi for example. If you can find the vunerable spot u can drastically hurt the mirage.

Illu/inspi mirage has lower confu stacks ( which is the main damage of mirage for sure) - so you gotta hit your full axe 3 f2 combo to kill someone.

I gotta admit that illu/duelling confu output is probably a little high /or too frequent.

I love confusion and i need it on my mesmer, but there should be a little room for my enemys.You'd probably need to nerf the synergy between ineptitude and blinding, so can still blind your enemy, but only inflict confu if you really interrupt your enemy.Increases the skill needed of applying high/permanent stacks of confusion.

I miss Mistrust ... ):

Oh for heavens sake its bad enough that us power mesmers have had confounding suggestions nerfed, I get the OP is just asking for opinions but posts like this are the reason why anet goes around nerfing stuff randomly instead of targeting the problem which seems to be condi mirage.....